Ketogenic Diet - Powerful Dietary Strategy for Certain Conditions

[Yupo]

Re: Ketogenic Diet - Path To Transformation?

A big help, thanks so much!

 

[anartist]

Re: Ketogenic Diet - Path To Transformation?

btw, I am reading a book called 'mastering leptin' by Richards and they mention that (page 184) excess stimulation of gastric inhibitory peptide due to high fat consumption can induce insulin resistance. I'll check that out, but they don't reference it, and it sounds out of the ball park(one of those small studies that used trans-fat instead of real fat). but if true it could account for higher blood glucose due to insulin resistance.

Being on a high fat diet automatically induces mild insulin resistance as a way of making sure glucose doesn't go into tissues that can be fuelled by ketones instead; leaving the glucose for the brain and central nervous system, which can't get by on ketones. I've never heard it attributed to a gastric inhibitory peptide, but I suppose that's possible. But the point is not to get too bent out of shape about insulin resistance (if it's mild). It's a normal part of being on a ketogenic diet. The real question is why your blood sugar is high if it's not getting it from outside sources. How much xylitol are you eating? Are you big on the "paleo treats"? How's your stress? Have you tested for any food intolerances?

I am not big on paleo treats, the only ones I have consumed are ones I have made for others (like family and my EE group). My stress is OK I think. hard to say, as I put myself under stress but since I retired external stress is much reduced!! I decided to look up the food screening that a practitioner did at Dr Jaconellos and found an interesting item. I was told to eliminate bakers and brewers yeast, grapes, green peppers, peanuts, wheat, milk and cheese. however I was told that I tolerated goats milk, and casein(from cows milk). I wonder what other source of casein there could be outside of cheese? very odd. I only consume small amounts of goat cheese(feta) for flavouring as opposed to a protein source. I am supposed to be cautious with BHT, cane sugar, cataloupe, chocolate, coffee, curry powder(tumeric?), mushrooms, soya, tea(black, green, white?), and tomato. So I have changed the flavouring of my fat bombs to lemon and cinnamon from chocolate. The stuff I was told to eliminate I had pretty well eliminated anyway, and the cautious stuff was pretty well gone also, except for coffee and chocolate! the practioner said that cream was probably OK (it wasn't on the list). Another interesting point was that I apparently tolerate "sweet'n'low", "sugar twin", "stevia" and "xylitol" of which I only take xylitol and stevia. but it does make me wonder about the accuracy of the list, and I think I will check with an Applied kinesiologist for some of these items.

I have been reluctant to go that low on protein as my integrative physician thought I had lost to much
muscle (I can't find the report from the test right now - if I can find it I will post it here. It was a test where I lay on a bed and they used a combo of my weight? and electricity to determine body composition. i.e. %fat, etc.) which may have been for many reasons, not just low protein.

If you're losing muscle, that indicates your body is breaking it down to free up amino acids for some reason. Whether that's because you're low protein, have some sort of stealth infection, or so the body can convert it into glucose is hard to say. It could be a cortisol issue, since cortisol will break down muscle for a quick source of glucose. This makes me think it could be stress, stealth infections or food intolerances.

that is a good idea, stealth infections might be possible. I know I was checked for bacteria, and then put on an antibiotics(humatin(7 days) and idoquinol(20 days)) for 3 weeks, and then it it did not show up in the post-antibiotic test. I'll check into a local applied kinesiologist to check for mold/bacteria/virii and the possibility of using iodine to treat same.

That said, there are a number of possibilities here, so it's hard to say for sure what might be going on. I'd say keep on digging and experimenting.

thanks dugdeep. I will keep digging, and might fall down a few rabbit holes! LOL

mod: quote boxes fixed

 

[anartist]

Re: Ketogenic Diet - Path To Transformation?

Hi Gaby. Yes, a way of living/eating can not survive if it is that complicated!

I just remembered that not too long ago, I watched a conference/video of a woman doing the keto diet. She started using a ketone meter and she was surprised to see that coconut was the one thing that was consistently kicking her out of ketosis. So there goes another myth. She was arguing that although coconut oil promotes ketosis in the average person, there would still be personal reactions and/or responses, hence the importance of using a ketone meter.

Also, it is true that quite a lot of people here in the forum gained weight when having a fat bomb per day. Even though quality food is very important, in some respects, a calorie is still a calorie.

Being kicked out by coconut oil never occurred to me. I know that was specific to that person, but it raises the question: Is there a particular food that keeps me in ketosis, or one that keeps me out of ketosis? It appears it would be useful to do an elimination diet to discover if there is such a food. I don't really have a lot of choice of what to eliminate though(except perhaps the "cautious" from the food screening that was done, such as chocolate, coffee, curry, goat cheese, tomato, tea), so I think what I will do is see if I can see an Applied Kinesiologist soon, and if not, do an elimination diet.
Also in checking my protein it seems I am having about 30-40 grams of protein for breakfast, and about 20-30 grams for dinner.

 

[Oxajil]

Re: Ketogenic Diet - Path To Transformation?

Hey anarkist, in case it helps, maybe you could also test for butter? If you're eating butter (or any other dairy products), sensitivity to casein can in some cases lead or contribute to weight gain. In an interview with Nora Gedgaudas, she said:

For some people, I think raw milk, and there are certain types of components of raw milk, like early; like colostrum and whey that in some people can be highly therapeutic. Now, that said, roughly half of everybody that has a gluten intolerance also has a casein intolerance. I happen to be one of them. I can’t do dairy at all. My immune system is highly reactive to dairy products, and that includes heavy cream and butter, I am sorry to say. And I know in previous editions of my book I extolled the virtues of butter and heavy cream, and for some people I think those foods are probably fine.

But I didn’t know that I had an immunological reactivity to dairy until I tested with appropriately sensitive testing. And the moment I eliminated those foods from my diet, it’s like 20 pounds fell off of me I didn’t even know I had. There were just so much inflammation all the time that I didn’t even realize that I was struggling with something until it go removed as an issue. [...]

 

[anartist]

Re: Ketogenic Diet - Path To Transformation?

Hey anarkist, in case it helps, maybe you could also test for butter? If you're eating butter (or any other dairy products), sensitivity to casein can in some cases lead or contribute to weight gain. In an interview with Nora Gedgaudas, she said:

For some people, I think raw milk, and there are certain types of components of raw milk, like early; like colostrum and whey that in some people can be highly therapeutic. Now, that said, roughly half of everybody that has a gluten intolerance also has a casein intolerance. I happen to be one of them. I can’t do dairy at all. My immune system is highly reactive to dairy products, and that includes heavy cream and butter, I am sorry to say. And I know in previous editions of my book I extolled the virtues of butter and heavy cream, and for some people I think those foods are probably fine.

But I didn’t know that I had an immunological reactivity to dairy until I tested with appropriately sensitive testing. And the moment I eliminated those foods from my diet, it’s like 20 pounds fell off of me I didn’t even know I had. There were just so much inflammation all the time that I didn’t even realize that I was struggling with something until it go removed as an issue. [...]

good point Oxajil.
my food screen testing said "I was told to eliminate bakers and brewers yeast, grapes, green peppers, peanuts, wheat, milk and cheese. however I was told that I tolerated goats milk, and casein(from cows milk). I wonder what other sources of casein there could be outside of cheese? very odd. I only consume small amounts of goat cheese(feta) for flavouring as opposed to a protein source. I am supposed to be cautious with BHT, cane sugar, cataloupe, chocolate, coffee, curry powder(tumeric?), mushrooms, soya, tea(black, green, white?), and tomato."
I guess butter is a source, but I am supposed to be OK with it (Casein from cows milk). but if cutting out the 'cautious' items does not work, that may be my next step.

 

[Nienna]

Re: Ketogenic Diet - Path To Transformation?

The fat I eat is tallow (cow fat). I am allergic to dairy and can't even eat ghee. I also can't eat anything coconut; and pretty much most veggies. So to get enough fat, I eat small pieces of tallow with each bite of my meat. I think of it as a pat of butter and have no problem with it. It's a very simple thing to do.

fwiw

 

[Konstantin]

Re: Ketogenic Diet - Path To Transformation?

The fat I eat is tallow (cow fat). I am allergic to dairy and can't even eat ghee. I also can't eat anything coconut; and pretty much most veggies. So to get enough fat, I eat small pieces of tallow with each bite of my meat. I think of it as a pat of butter and have no problem with it. It's a very simple thing to do.

fwiw

I do the same when i eat liver , mainly pork liver and sometimes a lamb liver when i can find it. I know its full with many nutrients but sometimes i cant handle the taste and smell. So i put a lot of garlic and parsley and on every bite of liver i put a piece of butter. In that way the taste of butter is dominant, and i can eat liver with an extra fat with it. Since i first try it, i`m doing it all the time i eat some liver . On this way its very tasty.

 

[anartist]

Re: Ketogenic Diet - Path To Transformation?

I am curious about your mention of good ketone levels being between 4 and 8. I though ketosis was achieved from level .5 and up? in the past year I have only achieved ketone levels above 4 twice back in Oct 2015 ketosis!

Ketosis below 4 mmol/L won't produce very usefull therapeutic effects like fighting bacteria. We also think that "mild" ketosis is popular because it have low associated risk of acidosis. Over 8 mmol/L become a little tricky and dangerous, anyway your body shall begin to produce insulin again when ketone level goes too high to limit its production (insulin not just regulate glucose but also regulate ketones). We also believe that ketone level shall be >= than glucose level. Since the body will normally not allow you to goes below 3 or 4 mmol/L of glucose, this is another reason. Some person like my spouse produce easily tons of ketones, but other like me have difficulties producing low level even under a strict diet.

About your glucose and ketone reading under fasting (taken first thing in the morning), you may have already remarked that as your ketone level goes higher, your glucose level fall, this is normal. But I shall attract your attention that if we extrapolate, under "normal" high carbs diet, your glucose level will be probably well past 7 mmol/L. It is my opignion that you suffer from diabetes type 2. Have you consulted a doctor about that? I assume you do such diet to mitigate this problem and it is a very good idea if it's the case. With time under ketogenic diet, I believe that your resistance to insulin will decrease, thus lowering your blood glucose level.

thank you Astrocyte
I have been checked for diabetes II (I asked for it) before I went on a paleo then a ketogenic diet(around 2005) when I was quite overweight(65 pounds over ideal weight). The results were negative. I was not considered pre-diabetic or diabetic. My high glucose readings may be due to pre-existing insulin resistance, or it may not. as dugdeep says "Being on a high fat diet automatically induces mild insulin resistance as a way of making sure glucose doesn't go into tissues that can be fuelled by ketones instead;" 3 years on the ketogenic diet shows me that there are underlying issues, like the markers of higher than expected blood glucose, and very large red blood cells, although my highsensitivity CRP is below 2 (1.1), and my chloresterol HDL/tricglyceride ration is under 2:1, so it is mix of red flags and green flags. We are all so different!

 

[lainey]

Re: Ketogenic Diet - Path To Transformation?

The fat I eat is tallow (cow fat). I am allergic to dairy and can't even eat ghee. I also can't eat anything coconut; and pretty much most veggies. So to get enough fat, I eat small pieces of tallow with each bite of my meat. I think of it as a pat of butter and have no problem with it. It's a very simple thing to do.

fwiw

I've done that as well. Sometimes I take a couple of spoonfuls of lard or goose fat in the morning then have a cup of tea. That normally does me till lunchtime. I'm trying cutting out butter to see what happens so just taking the fat straight instead of having a butter tea is what I have been experimenting with.
Having a lard chai tea is tolerable but it tastes a little odd to me.
So it's an option to try small pieces as Nienna does for people who don't tolerate any dairy.

 

[anartist]

Re: Ketogenic Diet - Path To Transformation?

I am curious about your mention of good ketone levels being between 4 and 8. I though ketosis was achieved from level .5 and up? in the past year I have only achieved ketone levels above 4 twice back in Oct 2015 ketosis!

Ketosis below 4 mmol/L won't produce very usefull therapeutic effects like fighting bacteria. We also think that "mild" ketosis is popular because it have low associated risk of acidosis. Over 8 mmol/L become a little tricky and dangerous, anyway your body shall begin to produce insulin again when ketone level goes too high to limit its production (insulin not just regulate glucose but also regulate ketones). We also believe that ketone level shall be >= than glucose level. Since the body will normally not allow you to goes below 3 or 4 mmol/L of glucose, this is another reason. Some person like my spouse produce easily tons of ketones, but other like me have difficulties producing low level even under a strict diet.

About your glucose and ketone reading under fasting (taken first thing in the morning), you may have already remarked that as your ketone level goes higher, your glucose level fall, this is normal. But I shall attract your attention that if we extrapolate, under "normal" high carbs diet, your glucose level will be probably well past 7 mmol/L. It is my opignion that you suffer from diabetes type 2. Have you consulted a doctor about that? I assume you do such diet to mitigate this problem and it is a very good idea if it's the case. With time under ketogenic diet, I believe that your resistance to insulin will decrease, thus lowering your blood glucose level.

thank you Astrocyte
I have been checked for diabetes II (I asked for it) before I went on a paleo then a ketogenic diet(around 2005) when I was quite overweight(65 pounds over ideal weight). The results were negative. I was not considered pre-diabetic or diabetic. My high glucose readings may be due to pre-existing insulin resistance, or it may not. as dugdeep says "Being on a high fat diet automatically induces mild insulin resistance as a way of making sure glucose doesn't go into tissues that can be fuelled by ketones instead;" 3 years on the ketogenic diet shows me that there are underlying issues, like the markers of higher than expected blood glucose, and very large red blood cells, although my highsensitivity CRP is below 2 (1.1), and my chloresterol HDL/tricglyceride ration is under 2:1, so it is mix of red flags and green flags. We are all so different!

just rereading the entire thread and I came across a reference to caffeine raising blood sugar, so I will go off coffee entirely, and see if that fixes it. if it does that will be great, and less concern about excess protein.

 

[Ca.]

Re: Ketogenic Diet - Path To Transformation?

Joe.com
How this PT got shredded by eating just one meal a day
_http://www.joe.co.uk/fitness-health/this-pt-got-shredded-by-eating-just-one-meal-a-day/69880
By Ben Kenyon
'Eat little and often' they tell you'.

You'll hear of bodybuilders eating anywhere from five to eight small meals a day, which to most normal people sounds like hell.

But you might not need to have your face permanently in a plastic tub full of chicken if you're looking to get ripped.

One meta-analysis of nutrition studies has already cast doubt on this 'golden dietary rule' - arguing that just sticking to a particular diet consistently might more important while arguing the amount of meals you eat is down to personal preference where body composition is concerned.

If anything backs this up it's the diet personal trainer Max Lowery ate on the way to getting ripped.

The PT was eating just one meal a day and still managed to get down to 5 per cent body fat, according to his interview with The Sports Review.

It was something he discovered totally by accident while travelling in South America he told the site - but it got him in the shape of his life.

It's based on intermittent fasting, which has incredible health benefits from increased fat loss to cell repair and boosted brain power (we explain all in this handy feature).

He told The Sports Review how he would train all day in Brazil and then just eat one big meal per day in the evening to save money.

"I didn’t really know or think about what I was doing but I just got shredded. I was really, really lean and I’d never been like that before.

"I was training a lot and I put on muscle mass even though I was eating less than usual. I got back home and weighed myself and I was around 80 kilos, which is really light for me, and 5 per cent body fat.

"But I still didn’t really know what I was doing. I went back into eating three meals a day, cooking my own food – low carb most of the time because I just like eating like that and I’d had good results from it – and I went back up to 86 kilos, from five per cent body fat to around 13 per cent.

"I wasn’t nearly as lean or shredded."

He did his research and found there was a community of people also into intermittent fasting which means going anything over 16 hours without eating (although a portion of that is overnight when you're asleep).

While you won't just have to eat one mega meal to get all your calories in, it just means you have a smaller 'eating window' to do your day's eating.

So you might fast from 9pm at night to 1pm the following day and then you can get tucking into your food in that eight hour period.

He explained in a blog post on his website how he thought cutting out breakfast would be the hardest thing he'd ever done.

"I thought this may be a struggle, I am someone who has always 'needed' to eat breakfast in the mornings. I used to think my whole world would collapse if I didn’t have my eggs in the morning.

"However, it was surprisingly easy and I got into the swing of it within a few days. I very quickly started to become leaner and I was visibly losing body fat without losing any muscle mass.

"To my surprise I was actually less hungry than before. No longer was I constantly thinking about my next meal or worrying if I wasn’t going to have time to have breakfast or lunch.

"Added bonus – as well as time, I was saving money! I stopped having to pay to have a substandard, unsatisfying lunch grabbed from whatever was near me in London.

The most useful benefit I found from IF (aside from fat loss) was the stabilisation of my energy levels. Digestion actually takes up a lot of energy and once you free up that energy, fasting can give you a “buzz”.

"Before IF I, like most people would start crashing in between breakfast and lunch (even with a low carb diet). Now I am on a constant energy level all day and that’s without any caffeine. I wake up full of energy and that lasts until I go to bed.

He managed to get down to 5 per cent body fat

 

[dtjessup@aol.com]

Re: Ketogenic Diet - Path To Transformation?

One of the variables that makes nutrition so challenging to understand is that all of the studies that we always rely on (I am referring to double blind/placebo) proxy subjects. We simply cannot control humans for long enough to establish outcomes that give us definitive answers. Even if we could "experiment" with human subjects the sorting out of genotype and phenotype (Genotype and phenotype are very similar-sounding words that are related, but actually mean different things. The genotype is the set of genes in our DNA which is responsible for a particular trait. The phenotype is the physical expression, or characteristics, of that trait) would need to be applied.

Right now the best we can do is guess what our nutritional BLUEPRINT might be (evolution over time) and surmise from that what the appropriate CONTENT would be - everything else is opinion and guess work.

Our diet changed 10,000 years ago to more grain centered and thus a more carb centered nutritional diet. We probably continued to go into ketosis often because of the fluctuation of availability of quantity and quality of nutritional resources. There are a plethora of other confounding questions to answer before any real facts are established.

“Everyone is entitled to their own opinion; no one is entitled to their own set of facts. “ Tim Noakes

 

[dugdeep]

Re: Ketogenic Diet - Path To Transformation?

Welcome to the forum dtjessup!

Seeing as this is your first post on the forum, we would appreciate it if you would post a brief intro about yourself in the Newbies section, telling us how you found this forum, how long you've been reading it and/or the SOTT page, whether or not you've read any of Laura's books yet, etc. You can take a look at how others have done it to get an idea.

As for your post, I think you're absolutely right. There are so many variables that affect how we respond to any particular diet that any advice really needs to be taken as a basic guideline, at best. You really need to experiment, try things out, see what works for you. This forum is really valuable since you get so many different people trying things and reporting on their results. It helps to have multiple views from which to take your data for your own experiments :)

 

[anartist]

Re: Ketogenic Diet - Path To Transformation?

Just watched a new video from Nora Gedgaudas (from Ancestral Health 16, posted 22 Aug 2016)
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=8k5QixWL0fU&feature=youtu.be
She talks about Weston Price, and chronicles the attack we as humans have been under for 10 000 years.
We already know this, which is why we are on this diet, but there is good information here, that might be useful for people we know who might be open to this information in this sort of video format.

 

[anartist]

Re: Ketogenic Diet - Path To Transformation?

Also, a search in my library for Nora Gedgaudas turned up this book due out soon (looks like a how-to diet book)
Primal Fat Burner : How a Ketogenic Paleo Diet Can Make You Think, Slow the Aging Process, Super-Power Your Brain, and Even Save Your Life.Summary
Author of the popular Primal Body, Primal Mind and widely recognized Paleo expert and nutritionist, Nora Gedgaudas presents a revolutionary, scientific, accessible high-fat diet for maintaining health, losing weight, and reversing some chronic diseases.

Popular nutritionist Nora Gedguadas returns with advice that may sound counterintuitive: Eat fat to burn fat. In her new book, Primal Fat Burner, she explains the benefits and science behind a ketogenic (or fat-burning) diet, which switches your metabolism from a dependence on sugar to running on healthy fats. As Gedgaudas reveals, numerous studies in recent years refute the long-promoted anti-saturated fat and anti-cholesterol agenda. Now, Gedgaudas explains the science that fat isn't a “no-no” but rather a “yes-yes”—if you know the right kinds of fats to eat. In her accessible, enjoyable style, she also lays out a practical meal plan with recipes. When you follow a ketogenic diet, you consume fewer calories overall!

Author of the bestselling Grain Brain, Dr. David Perlmutter writes in his foreword that Primal Fat Burner is, “Wonderfully actionable, compassionately taking the reader from ‘why’ to ‘how.’” On this diet, you efficiently and effectively metabolize fat (ketones and free fatty acids) as your primary source of fuel, rather than glucose from carbs, starches, and sugars. Because fat is so satisfying, you naturally wind up eating less—without feelings of hunger or deprivation. And natural dietary fat is ultimately key to optimum health and longevity.

Gedgaudas communicates a real appreciation for and understanding of the central role that dietary fat plays in your body and brain, and explains how you can eat to feel better, look better, think clearer, and live longer.