Ketogenic Diet - Powerful Dietary Strategy for Certain Conditions

[mcb]

Re: Ketogenic Diet - Path To Transformation?

One thing I'd like to ask: If your personal weight
changes while going through the diet, should one
recalculate the ratio? Seems like a no-brainer, but
I just needed to ask!

I can tell you what Phinney has said: his work uses "reference weight." In other words, he looks at what someone "should" weigh, and calculates protein from that. I don't know off hand if his reference weight is based just on height, or includes other factors. Personally, I use my "ideal" weight that I determined for myself over the years, which happens to be near the top of my "normal" BMI range.

In the one Phinney research paper I have that defines it (a 1980 paper cited in the 2004 paper cited by Gedgaudas), his reference ("ideal") weights are taken from "Metropolitan Life Insurance Company tables for medium-frame individuals."

 

[dant]

Re: Ketogenic Diet - Path To Transformation?

Huh, I guess I got it so wrong! I was using
my present weight! Back to the calculations
and thanks for this information!

 

[mcb]

Re: Ketogenic Diet - Path To Transformation?

Huh, I guess I got it so wrong! I was using
my present weight! Back to the calculations
and thanks for this information!

Understand that here in the forum people may sometimes be using their present weight. That is OK, but those numbers do not compare directly with those of Phinney or Gedgaudas.

 

[monotonic]

Re: Ketogenic Diet - Path To Transformation?

This is what I've come up with so far on lactic acid. I don't think I will pursue this any further.

(For those interested in nitty gritty details - babies are in mild ketosis, but very young babies seem to utilize lactate as a fuel in lieu of glucose also - and the utilization of lactate also promotes the same use of acetyl-CoA and gives the neonates some of the advantages of ketoadaptation without being in heavy ketosis.)

If one drops carb intake and begins working out, the muscles will be producing lactic acid. Now there will be a surplus of lactic acid and glucose will be conserved. It seems to me, after my reading that lactate mainly acts as an intermediate support fuel between carb restriction and ketoadaption, but only if one works out during the carb restriction, and not for long.

1: Lactate as a fuel seems to have some of the benefits of ketones:
lactate "may exert a strong action over GABAergic networks in the developing brain, making them more inhibitory than it was previously assumed" (http://onlinelibrary.wiley.com/doi/10.1111/j.1471-4159.2009.06506.x/pdf) "We demonstrate that in the neonatal brain, Em and EGABA strongly depend on composition of the energy substrate pool. Complementing glucose with ketone bodies, pyruvate or lactate resulted in a significant hyperpolarization of both Em and EGABA, and induced a radical shift in the mode of GABAergic synaptic transmission towards network inhibition." This seems to be saying that lactate, as well as ketone bodies, has the opposite effect of glutamate. From Psyche's synthesis: "Studies on cultured rat neonatal cortical neurons revealed that beta-hydroxybutyrate and acetoacetate prevented neuronal cell death induced by glutamate." Lactate seems to have a similar effect.
2: Lactate is used as well as protein for gluconeogenesis. But, if GNG is only increased by several % during ketosis and is mostly constant, does it matter whether the source is coming from protein or lactate? I read in one place that most GNG occurs from lactate, so can one conserve protein, and simplify our dietary protein dilemma by consuming a nutrient the liver prefers over protein for GNG?

So maybe lactic acid plays a minor role in ketogenesis if one works out, or consumes it outright.

As a cooking aid, I realized a good way of comparing vinegar and lactic acid would be to compare their respective salts, as that would be how they act in a bone broth. Generally, acetic acid salts have more industrial uses, whereas lactic acids salts are more commonly used as preservatives and flavorants. According to Wikipedia:

Acetates:

Magnesium acetate can cause inflammation and is suggested to be handled with gloves. Is this what the magnesium in bone broth becomes when it is dissolved by added vinegar?
Potassium acetate is used as a food preservative and pH regulator. It is used to treat diabetic ketoacidosis.
Sodium acetate is typically added to processed foods as a seasoning.
Calcium acetate is used to treat hyperphosphatemia as it binds to phosphates in the diet, and causes upset stomach. It is also a food additive.

Lactates:

Magnesium lactate is used as a mineral supplement, and as an acidity regulator in foods.
"Potassium lactate is commonly used in meat and poultry products to extend shelf life and increase food safety as it has a broad antimicrobial action and is effective at inhibiting most spoilage and pathogenic bacteria."
Sodium lactate is used as a food preservative, acidity regulator and bulking agent in foods.
Calcium lactate is used in food as a baking powder. It is most commonly used as an antacid and can also be used to treat calcium deficiencies, because it can be absorbed at various pH's and so does not need to be taken with food.

In conclusion, it seems using vinegar (acetic acid) might dissolve the minerals out of bones, but they may not be in a useful form, or may even be inflammatory. Calcium and magnesium especially, and these are big parts of bone broth. Lactic acid has more broad uses in the body, and it's salts are used for supplementation of calcium and magnesium. This makes me think of malic acid, which comes before lactic acid in malolactic fermentation. I know that magnesium malate and calcium citrate malate are supposed to be very effective supplements. However malic acid does not have salt forms of sodium or potassium.

Lactic acid is the result of lactofermentation and is easily made at home in the form of sauerkraut, sourdough and cultured milk products. None of us would eat most of these things, especially those seeking to eliminate all carbs. Cultured butter is one potential source. Stick of butter in the bone broth?

 

[dant]

Re: Ketogenic Diet - Path To Transformation?

Huh, I guess I got it so wrong! I was using
my present weight! Back to the calculations
and thanks for this information!

Understand that here in the forum people may sometimes be using their present weight. That is OK, but those numbers do not compare directly with those of Phinney or Gedgaudas.

Calculations using my present weight compared with
calculations using the BMI showed a 1/2 drop for
protein intake. Seems like this is a pretty significant
drop? I think I will stick with the BMI calculations per
Phinney or Gedgaudas for now unless others beg to
differ? Instead of eating a 9oz fatty prime rib, I will
eat at least half that amount per day, or so it seems.

 

[anart]

Re: Ketogenic Diet - Path To Transformation?

I eyeball it. When I'm satisfied I'm done, and I leave the rest for later. My meat cuts are very fatty and I'm certainly eating more fish now that we know that if fish contains more selenium than mercury it is safe and all of them do except for whale, shark, swordfish, marlin, tarpon. Not exactly what people have in mind when they go to get some fish for dinner ;) My brain says it likes tuna a lot.

I'm still staying far away from fish due to the radiation in the Pacific and the corexit and oil in the Atlantic, not to mention decades of mercury contamination and that floating island of plastic in both oceans. Small fishes should be safer, though, like sardines and such.

 

[mcb]

Re: Ketogenic Diet - Path To Transformation?

Here is gelatin from the broth I made this last weekend. This chunk doesn't have much fat -- most of that poured off into the first containers. The meat that I usually eat it with (and that supplies bones for future batches of broth) also has plenty of fat. But warm the gelatin gently (not in a microwave oven!), add salt, and it is pretty good by itself.

Now I have another challenge:

My housemate planted an almond tree that is now 10 feet tall and covered in almonds. She is doing all of the initial drying and preparation, and I am finally going to have to figure out the soaking, dehydrating, and roasting part. I don't want them to go to waste, but I don't like what they do to me raw. This is considerably more work than bone broth!

 

[Chu]

Re: Ketogenic Diet - Path To Transformation?

Huh, I guess I got it so wrong! I was using
my present weight! Back to the calculations
and thanks for this information!

Understand that here in the forum people may sometimes be using their present weight. That is OK, but those numbers do not compare directly with those of Phinney or Gedgaudas.

I think that using our current weight is more reliable. This "ideal weight" business is BS, IMO. Everyone is different, it's very difficult to calculate the BMI, etc. If your body is at a certain weight now, you can make a rough calculation for the present, and adjust accordingly when you lose or put on weight. That's my take on it, FWIW. I don't think there is any "ideal". Some people are naturally heavier or lighter. The best thing is to listen to our bodies, and we'll know when it is functionning better and better.

 

[Tomek]

Re: Ketogenic Diet - Path To Transformation?

Update : it's been a full week in ketosis, now. I don't feel well. I used to eat small amounts of veggies with my meals, mostly as an excuse to pour more butter or duck fat in my plate, and that was fine. I'm still trying to ajust my meals, in order to find a good ratio, but I'm not here yet. Meanwhile, I rely somewhat heavily on potassium, magnesium and salted water to avoid a very unpleasant and growing sensation of mental confusion, which also makes me very anxious. I finally find a butcher who sells grass-fed meat near my flat, I'll contact him today to grab some bones and see by myself if the bone broth is that efficient. Also, I had flares-up of eczema on new locations, still on my hands.

 

[Laura]

Re: Ketogenic Diet - Path To Transformation?

Update : it's been a full week in ketosis, now. I don't feel well. I used to eat small amounts of veggies with my meals, mostly as an excuse to pour more butter or duck fat in my plate, and that was fine. I'm still trying to ajust my meals, in order to find a good ratio, but I'm not here yet. Meanwhile, I rely somewhat heavily on potassium, magnesium and salted water to avoid a very unpleasant and growing sensation of mental confusion, which also makes me very anxious. I finally find a butcher who sells grass-fed meat near my flat, I'll contact him today to grab some bones and see by myself if the bone broth is that efficient. Also, I had flares-up of eczema on new locations, still on my hands.

In case you didn't notice, nearly every post any of us who are doing this experiment have made, has emphasized that you don't even start it without having bone broth on the immediate menu!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

Therefore, your misery is your own fault for not paying attention, for not reading thoroughly, for not getting the procedure down before starting. How many times can I say: do not do anything that you do not thoroughly understand???

Also, please notice that, even with bone broth, there are certain symptoms that may be experienced during transition and upregulation/downregulation of DNA. But at least, with bone broth, we have managed to avoid the nasty "brain fog" that often comes when one begins to force the body to work with fats instead of carbs.

People, do NOT underestimate the value of BONE BROTH!

 

[kenlee]

Re: Ketogenic Diet - Path To Transformation?

The bone broth is truly amazing stuff. I've been making it from beef marrow bones that are sold at Whole Foods Market and drink a cup of it in the morning and then in the evening after work. I definitely have noticed more energy from the broth (although, at the same time, it helps me to sleep better at night) but its not a nervous, short term kind of energy like one might get from caffeine. Rather, the energy I get from the broth is a slow steady energy that runs deep into my bones that I can feel almost as a constant throughout the day from morning to evening. I got that same kind of energy from eating fatty meats but its even more pronounced after drinking the bone broth (salted to taste of course!). I'll be working more hours soon in a very hectic work environment so drinking this broth (along with steady weight loss from the Paleo diet) will help a lot with my energy levels since I'll have to be waking up very early in the morning and it's extremely important for me to be fully alert throughout the entire day.

 

[theos]

Re: Ketogenic Diet - Path To Transformation?

Yes, the bone broth is truly awesome. It really keeps my muscles relaxed. Like others here I've been adding meat into my broth. Sometimes, I'll put some seafood tidbits into it. I have some oxtails in the crockpot now. It makes excellent broth. I'll put the bones back into the pot for one more round after I eat the meat.

I'd been holding onto some water then I lost all of that then an additional 4lbs. or so. That would put me at about 7lbs since starting.

 

[dant]

Re: Ketogenic Diet - Path To Transformation?

Huh, I guess I got it so wrong! I was using
my present weight! Back to the calculations
and thanks for this information!

Understand that here in the forum people may sometimes be using their present weight. That is OK, but those numbers do not compare directly with those of Phinney or Gedgaudas.

I think that using our current weight is more reliable. This "ideal weight" business is BS, IMO. Everyone is different, it's very difficult to calculate the BMI, etc. If your body is at a certain weight now, you can make a rough calculation for the present, and adjust accordingly when you lose or put on weight. That's my take on it, FWIW. I don't think there is any "ideal". Some people are naturally heavier or lighter. The best thing is to listen to our bodies, and we'll know when it is functionning better and better.

Thanks for your advice. I have calcuated both methods in
my calculations section in my personal document (PDF).

I have put together a compendium using LWB & Ketogenic
Diet into a PDF file so that I can use it as a guide to help me
and perhaps others, if interested. I have categories starting
with food items table with advice, Books/Links for sources of
information, How-To Calculations, Information section for
understanding the LWB/Ketogenic Diet, Canning and rendering
info, and Recipes. I hope to condense my document, I lack a
comprehensive recipes, but over time I hope to resolve these
issues as I go along.

Again, thank you!

 

[Laura]

Re: Ketogenic Diet - Path To Transformation?

Yes, the bone broth is truly awesome. It really keeps my muscles relaxed. Like others here I've been adding meat into my broth. Sometimes, I'll put some seafood tidbits into it. I have some oxtails in the crockpot now. It makes excellent broth. I'll put the bones back into the pot for one more round after I eat the meat.

I'd been holding onto some water then I lost all of that then an additional 4lbs. or so. That would put me at about 7lbs since starting.

Yup. Lately, I've been putting a tablespoon of lard in there to up the fat intake, a teaspoon of butter for a nice taste, and a tablespoon of our delicious liver pate. It makes a super rich, delicious and very fatty soup that makes you feel like you've had a five course meal.

Some days, I just have breakfast and then, as the day proceeds, two bowls of broth as described above, and that's it for the whole day. It's definitely a cheap way to stay nourished!

 

[Carl]

Re: Ketogenic Diet - Path To Transformation?

Yes, the bone broth is truly awesome. It really keeps my muscles relaxed. Like others here I've been adding meat into my broth. Sometimes, I'll put some seafood tidbits into it. I have some oxtails in the crockpot now. It makes excellent broth. I'll put the bones back into the pot for one more round after I eat the meat.

I'd been holding onto some water then I lost all of that then an additional 4lbs. or so. That would put me at about 7lbs since starting.

Yup. Lately, I've been putting a tablespoon of lard in there to up the fat intake, a teaspoon of butter for a nice taste, and a tablespoon of our delicious liver pate. It makes a super rich, delicious and very fatty soup that makes you feel like you've had a five course meal.

Some days, I just have breakfast and then, as the day proceeds, two bowls of broth as described above, and that's it for the whole day. It's definitely a cheap way to stay nourished!

Absolutely, the way I make it, it is almost like a blended meal rather than a soup. Took some to work today in a thermo flask and it was fantastic for my energy level, plus I can avoid funny looks/annoying diet questions because people just assume its coffee.

I've also noticed that, if I'm out and about or working, every time I have a cigarette now I feel really lethargic for about 30 minutes, and it isn't all that great. Maybe I am starting to need it much less on this diet.