Ketogenic Diet - Powerful Dietary Strategy for Certain Conditions

Re: Ketogenic Diet - Path To Transformation?

Approaching Infinity said:
After a sudden flash of inspiration last night, this morning I had my breakfast in the following form: bowl of bone broth, 3 slices of bacon, a sausage, and a hard-baked egg all chopped up and mixed in the broth. It was the most delicious breakfast soup ever. Amen. :halo:

Ooo! Ketogenic breakfast cereal!

:clap:
 
Re: Ketogenic Diet - Path To Transformation?

monotonic said:
That is exactly what I said. If 72g/day keeps one out of ketosis for a day, then theoretically 72g/2=36g should stall ketosis for half a day. 72g/12=6g should stall ketosis for 2 hours. I am not THAT confused. :)

What is the point in discussing amounts of carbohydrates when we already know that the requirement for carbohydrates is zero and is slowing down the process of Ketosis?

monotonic said:
The question I still have is, if the brain can use lactate in place of glucose, then can consuming lactic acid decrease glucose dependence of the brain and could this have a positive effect?

Why not experiment with simple bacon, patties and bone broth first (after you have read this and the "Life without bread" thread) before you do anything else?

monotonic said:
I have another thought - is it possible to make bone broth and render tallow in the same pot at the same time? would the resulting tallow be infused with fat-soluble nutrients? Could a thick layer of tallow on top reabsorb nutrients that would otherwise dissolve into the air? Just throwing this out there, I don't know a lot about cooking...

Experimenting and learning is fun! Especially when it is about cooking!
 
Re: Ketogenic Diet - Path To Transformation?

+ Percent protein is not as important as the absolute amount

This doesn't seem right to me... One can be 1.9m tall and weigh 75kg, or be 1.9m and 150kg, or 1.5m and 150kg.

And even then, it seems to me that a lot would depend on whether you have excess fat or excess muscle.

I do like their recommendation for the recovery after exercise. I have always found that working out intensely every other day like clockwork was just too much (physically, psychologically, and in terms of energy levels).

Then again, on carbs I would be sore the day after a workout. On the Paleo diet, I would be sore the second day after a workout. Now on the KD, I usually am not sore at all.

So, who knows!
 
Re: Ketogenic Diet - Path To Transformation?

Mr. Scott said:
Approaching Infinity said:
After a sudden flash of inspiration last night, this morning I had my breakfast in the following form: bowl of bone broth, 3 slices of bacon, a sausage, and a hard-baked egg all chopped up and mixed in the broth. It was the most delicious breakfast soup ever. Amen. :halo:

Ooo! Ketogenic breakfast cereal!

Yeah, I am having some bone broth right now with a sausage patty and slice of bacon mixed in and it's divine! They go so well together. I'm also hoping that the broth can relieve some of the tightness in my calves that I've been experiencing for the last day...
 
Re: Ketogenic Diet - Path To Transformation?

Mr. Scott said:
Then again, on carbs I would be sore the day after a workout. On the Paleo diet, I would be sore the second day after a workout. Now on the KD, I usually am not sore at all.

So, who knows!

Yes, this is the same here I could experiment on the last week.
 
Re: Ketogenic Diet - Path To Transformation?

A thought occurred to me recently that I thought might be relevant. If I'm not mistaken, the marrow is where a lot (all?) the stem cells in a body are stored, so I wonder if our bodies are able to utilize that in some way from the marrow in the bone broth, providing additional benefits beyond just the minerals and fat in the broth.

Just a thought.
 
Re: Ketogenic Diet - Path To Transformation?

I've watched some more videos by Dr. Gregory Ellis today, and I think that some of them are worth watching and spreading on FB. They are made simple, short, he sometimes talks about the lies in the Medicine "industry", and gives good explanations about the bad effects of glucose, the propaganda about cholesterol, ketosis, etc.

For example:

Cholesterol Misconceptions
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=o5vEQmgxYf0&feature=relmfu

The Glycation Factor
http://www.youtube.com/watch?feature=endscreen&NR=1&v=GICZWpq7k7Q

The Problem of Dietary Fiber
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=yyFdB9ZYDlM&feature=relmfu
 
Re: Ketogenic Diet - Path To Transformation?

Aragorn said:
In the latest episode of Jimmy Moore's Living La Vida Low Carb, he interviews Dr. Stephen Phinney. The title of the episode is: 'Long-Term Stalls & Weight Gain Even On A Well-Formulated Low-Carb Diet'. You can find it here:

_http://livinlavidalowcarb.com/blog/atlcx-episode-23-long-term-stalls-weight-gain-even-on-a-well-formulated-low-carb-diet-dr-stephen-phinney-2/15282

I haven't yet listened to this, but the summary looked very interesting! I'm gonna listen it tonight.

I am listening to it at the moment, with about 30 minutes to go (it's ~2 hours long). I do recommend it, and listen to the whole thing because these shows are in a Q&A format, and interesting information comes out throughout the 2 hours.

One thing that just popped up, at approximately 1:20 (1 hour, 20 minutes) was where the 1.5g/kg/day minimum protein intake figure comes from. I have to go shopping right now, but I can perhaps create a transcript of that segment later in the day if nobody beats me to it. He says that the 0.8g/kg/day RDA is insufficient for people on a low carb diet. I can only add that my personal weight-loss experience validates that the RDA is too low for me.

I have to go now, but I want to comment very briefly about Gedgaudas and her sources, which include Phinney and Rosedale. Nora takes the available research and applies it to primal/paleo diet, smoothing off some of the rough edges along the way. I am finding it very helpful, however, to listen to (and read) the sources as well. If you can find a Rosedale presentation, I would recommend listening to that too. My copies are all purchased (including the Paleo FX conference DVDs), but I am pretty sure I have heard him on free podcasts as well. Phinney and Rosedale also have published research papers that are cited in PBPM, and that are available for free download. Listening to the sources provides an additional perspective for understanding where various recommendations come from, and perhaps customizing diet according to different goals.

I recommend listening to the whole Ask the Low Carb Experts series (which is quite a few episodes since it started at the beginning of the year and is weekly). There are a few duds along the way in the later weeks (which I did not even finish listening to), but the series contains lots of information and insights, some of which you won't find in the books.
 
Re: Ketogenic Diet - Path To Transformation?

Data said:
monotonic said:
That is exactly what I said. If 72g/day keeps one out of ketosis for a day, then theoretically 72g/2=36g should stall ketosis for half a day. 72g/12=6g should stall ketosis for 2 hours. I am not THAT confused. :)

What is the point in discussing amounts of carbohydrates when we already know that the requirement for carbohydrates is zero and is slowing down the process of Ketosis?...

I agree with your point, but be careful about saying that we need zero carbohydrates. Carbs are not an essential nutrient, but that doesn't mean we don't need any. It means we can (assuming properly functioning metabolism) make all we need from other dietary inputs.

You and I don't know what is going to happen when an individual drops to zero carbs. (Actually, there are carbs to be found in meat -- not to mention supplements -- that may prevent actually hitting zero intake.) I do know that when I dropped to near-zero to see if I could resolve my fermentation issues, it made me rather ill, so bodies vary and they do so over "time." If I tried it today, a year later, the results might be different. One of the variables is the makeup of one's gut microbes, which vary from person to person and over time.

Another factor is that the quality of available food varies from one person to the next. You still need a wide range of nutrients in your diet, even if you go zero-carb. If you are eating nothing but store-bought muscle meat, with or without attached fat, and supplementing with fat scraps and such, you may be nutritionally deficient. Who knows? It depends. If you are eating fatty meats from animals raised on nutrient-rich natural diets, and include ample amounts of organ meats, and if you don't have any metabolic deficiencies (e.g. genetic mutations) to get in the way then you might well be OK. You are still going to need to have the understanding to read the signals your body sends and respond appropriately.

Keep in mind that the low/zero-carb cultures we have read about have had rich traditions that guide their food intake. It's possible that they have known things that we don't yet know (and are about to find out!).

I say these things not to discourage this ketogenic experiment, but to provide food for thought among those here that have not done the reading and research, who lack necessary protective knowledge, who may not even be participating actively in the discussion, and who may think they can take shortcuts and jump in and see quick results without putting in the time and effort required. For such people there are lots of other paleo/primal/low-carb forums out there that will happily "help."
 
Re: Ketogenic Diet - Path To Transformation?

Foxx said:
A thought occurred to me recently that I thought might be relevant. If I'm not mistaken, the marrow is where a lot (all?) the stem cells in a body are stored, so I wonder if our bodies are able to utilize that in some way from the marrow in the bone broth, providing additional benefits beyond just the minerals and fat in the broth.

Just a thought.

There is definitely more to bone broth than minerals and fat. Have you read Dr. Cate's Deep Nutrition?

Deep Nutrition said:
Cooking Meat, Rule Number Four: Make Bone Stock
More than anything else, the health of your joints depends upon the health of the collagen in your ligaments, tendons, and on the ends of your bones. Collagens are a large family of biomolecules, which include the glycosaminoglycans, very special molecules that help keep our joints healthy. People used to eat soup and stock made from bones all the time, and doing so supplied their bodies with the whole family of glycosaminoglycans, which used to protect people’s joints. Now that few people make bone stock anymore, many of us are limping into doctors’ offices for prescriptions, surgeries and, lately, recommendations to buy over-the-counter joint supplements containing glucosamine. And what is glucosamine? One of the members of the glycosaminoglycan family of joint-building molecules.

Veterinarians have been using glucosamine supplements to treat arthritic pets for decades. But physicians dismissed the practice as a waste of time, assuming that, since glucosamine is a protein, the digestive system would break it down into its component amino acids. Nobody can explain how, but studies have shown that glucosamine is somehow able to resist digestion and pass through the intestinal wall intact.154 Once it gets into your bloodstream, “…glucosamine has a special tropism for cartilage.”155 (That’s techno-speak for “somehow, it knows just where to go.”) Even more amazing, glucosamine can actually stimulate the growth of new, healthy collagen and help repair damaged joints.156 And collagen isn’t just in your joints; it’s in bone, and skin, and arteries, and hair, and just about everywhere in between. This means that glucosamine-rich broth is a kind of youth serum, capable of rejuvinating your body, no matter what your age. After decades of skepticism, orthopedists and rheumatologists are now embracing its use in people with arthritis, recommending it to “overcome or possibly reverse some of the degradation that occurs with injuries or disease.”157 Given these facts, it hardly seems far fetched to suggest that eating this stuff in soups and sauces from childhood makes joints stronger in the first place.

One of Luke’s golfing buddies, local Kauai born and bred, didn’t need convincing. As a child of a Filipino household, he ate lots of meat on the bone growing up. One day, chopping a goat leg to stir into stew, he asked his mother about the white, shiny stuff on the ends of the bones. She told him that he had the very same kind of material in his own joints. Instantly, he decided that eating that shiny cartilage would be good for his shiny cartilage. He has eaten meat on the bone ever since, making sure to chew on the ends. Now his friends are on arthritis meds, while he’s surfing and golfing twice a week.

Not only do bone broths build healthy joints, the calcium and other minerals help to grow your bones. One of my patients is a charming young boy whose father is a chef. The chef is 5 foot 10 and his wife 5 foot 5. Both parents are lactose intolerant, and so, for years his dad, the chef, made bone stocks and used them as a base for making rice, mashed potatoes, soups, and reduction sauce gravies. He did this so that he and his lactose-intolerant wife would get plenty of dietary calcium. Aside from calcium, bone broth also contains glycosaminoglycans, as well as magnesium and other bonebuilding minerals—basically a total bone and joint building package—most of which the chef didn’t know about. However, his son’s DNA did. This child of average-height parents started life at normal size, but his growth chart illustrates that, over the years, he’s gotten progressively taller than average. Now, at ten, his height and muscle mass are already off the chart. By the way, his teeth are straight, he doesn’t need glasses, and he is the number one swimmer on his team.

Coincidence? Misleading anecdotal data? I don’t think so. We all know that vitamin D and calcium are good for a child’s growing bones. And as we saw in Chapter 5, it takes a whole array of vitamins and minerals to build a healthy skeleton. Cooking meat on the bone extracts all those well-known vitamins and minerals, plus the glycosaminoglycan growth factors. To have tall, strong, well-proportioned children, we’re often told to get them to drink milk. And if we’re talking about organic whole milk—especially raw!—I’m all for it. But if it were my kids, I’d also make sure they were getting regular helpings of home-made soups and sauces, and anything else I could think of to get them to eat more stock.

The benefits of broth consumption far outweigh the benefits of taking a pill for a couple of reasons: First, the low heat used to slowly simmer the nutrient material from bone and joint is far gentler than the destructive heat and pressure involved in the production of glucosamine tablets. Second, instead of extracting only one or two factors, broth gives you the entire complex of cartilage components—some of which have yet to be identified in the lab—plus minerals and vitamins. Broth’s nutritional complexity makes it a nearly perfect bone-building joint-health-supporting package. And it’s no coincidence that it tastes great. Rich, satisfying flavors convinced the father of modern French culinary science, Auguste Escoffier, that stock was an absolute kitchen essential. “Without it, nothing can be done.”

Our ancestors probably discovered the magic in bones a very long time ago. In the Pacific Northwest, archeologic digs have uncovered evidence that, centuries before Escoffier, early Native Americans supplemented their winter diet of dried fish by deliberately fracturing herbivorous animal bones prior to stewing them. Not only did this release bone nutrients, it released the marrow fat and vitamins into the simmering soup. And anthropologists studying hunter-gatherers from Canada to the Kalahari find that this practice of exploiting bone and marrow nutrients was, and is, “almost ubiquitous.”158,159 While visiting a farm in New Zealand, I met a spry and engaging 80-something woman who told me about the Scottish tradition of “passing the bone.” In the little village where she grew up, nothing went to waste. Cartilaginous knee joints and bony shanks were especially prized, and passed from house to house. Each family would put the bones into a pot over the stove to simmer for a night before passing them on to their neighbor until the bone was “spent.” As she hiked with us over the rolling green hills of her estate, she explained that the bones were shared because she and her neighbors were convinced that “something in them was sustaining.” Indeed there is. So skip the pharmacy aisle and head straight to your local butcher for bones to make your own homemade stock.

For thousands of years, people all over the world made full use of the animals they consumed, every last bit right down to the marrow and joints. You might suppose that, over all that time and all those generations, our bodies, including our joints, might grow so accustomed to those nutrients that they wouldn’t grow, repair, and function normally without them. You’d be right. And what is true of bones is true of other animal parts. Over time, our genes have been programmed with the need and expectation of a steady input of familiar nutrients, some of which can only be derived from the variety meats, which include bones, joints, and organs.

Shanahan MD, Catherine (2011-04-22). Deep Nutrition: Why Your Genes Need Traditional Food. Big Box Books. Kindle Edition.

There is more info than this in the book; what I quoted above is the main bone broth (stock) segment. While it is a "traditional foods" book rather than a primal/paleo book, Deep Nutrition contains a wealth of information. And if you don't have access to 'paleo' foods, traditional foods may be a very good option. After all, how many paleolithic hunter-gatherers were cooking up bone broth for 24 hours in their slow cookers?
 
Re: Ketogenic Diet - Path To Transformation?

Megan said:
There is definitely more to bone broth than minerals and fat. Have you read Dr. Cate's Deep Nutrition?

Yes, I've read it. I also have access to as close to paleo foods as one can get in america at this present time. It was an error on my part to use the word 'just' to simplify down to the minerals and fat element of the bone broth, however that wasn't really the point of my post at all, the main focus being on the stem cell component.

Considering the above post along with this:

Megan said:
I agree with your point, but be careful about saying that we need zero carbohydrates. Carbs are not an essential nutrient, but that doesn't mean we don't need any. It means we can (assuming properly functioning metabolism) make all we need from other dietary inputs.

I think you really over-obsess about the details sometimes, Megan.
 
Re: Ketogenic Diet - Path To Transformation?

Foxx said:
Megan said:
I agree with your point, but be careful about saying that we need zero carbohydrates. Carbs are not an essential nutrient, but that doesn't mean we don't need any. It means we can (assuming properly functioning metabolism) make all we need from other dietary inputs.

I think you really over-obsess about the details sometimes, Megan.

Yes, I do. I periodically see posts from people that appear to be jumping in not knowing what they are doing, and that is what sets me off. I have some work to do there. But then I am prone to obsession (autistic spectrum issues) and the ketogenic diet is a major part of my efforts to deal with that. It might look sometimes like it is not working, but you haven't seen where I started.
 
Re: Ketogenic Diet - Path To Transformation?

The bones, the mallet, and a helper that emerged out of the bushes to see what I was up to.
IMG_0949.jpg


The idea was to break up the bones before cooking, but I wasn't strong enough. I moved into the garage and tried it on the workbench, switching to a steel hammer, but the bones were unfazed. So I gave up on that idea, for this week, anyway.

Nope, don't need any more help.
IMG_0950.jpg


Bones covered with water plus a little vinegar. (I added 3/4 cup more water, 18 hours later.) You can see why you might want to strain it afterward. I haven't been adding fat, but then these are grass-fed lamb and beef bones that seem to contain quite a bit of fat already.
IMG_0952.jpg


This is how I strain it when it is done (broth still cooking in the background). Then I pour it into smaller glass containers and freeze most of it.
IMG_0953.jpg


And this is gelatin -- finished broth that has been chilled. This chunk doesn't have much fat -- most of that poured off into the first containers. The meat that I usually eat it with (and that supplies bones for future batches of broth) also has plenty of fat. But warm the gelatin gently (not in a microwave oven!), add salt, and it is pretty good by itself.

IMG_0954.jpg


All of this is quick and easy to do, even for someone that works and doesn't have a lot of time to spend in the kitchen.
 
Re: Ketogenic Diet - Path To Transformation?

:lol: excellent mini-documentary Megan! Could I ask where you found the massive glass jar? Nothing I have around the house or seen in stores is big enough, so I just store the soup with the stoneware in the fridge, where it tends to take up too much space.
 
Re: Ketogenic Diet - Path To Transformation?

whitecoast said:
:lol: excellent mini-documentary Megan! Could I ask where you found the massive glass jar? Nothing I have around the house or seen in stores is big enough, so I just store the soup with the stoneware in the fridge, where it tends to take up too much space.

I bought this one at Whole Foods Market. There is also a local health food store that sells the same brand -- Frigoverre. It holds the entire batch of broth with a little room to spare.
 

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