Ketogenic Diet - Powerful Dietary Strategy for Certain Conditions

[aragorn]

Re: Ketogenic Diet - Path To Transformation?

Interesting article! Both Jack Kruse and Ron Rosedale weigh in in the comments. I think this one from RR is quite relevant:

Ron RosedaleAugust 24, 2012 11:54 PM

The bottom line is that excess protein gets burned as fuel and that's not healthy. The amount that is first converted into glucose depends on the protein and the composition of amino acids that make it up. Some amino acids convert directly into glucose. Others enter energy pathways as intermediate hydrocarbons; not literally glucose but shorter carbon fragments of same. Either way, one must deaminate the amino acid, transferring the nitrogen to ammonia and urea that circulates as a poison until it can be excreted in the urine (hence the name). If nothing else, protein will cause harm by having to burn the excess one way or another and therefore not burn fatty acids or ketones. Then there are the important effects on metabolic hormones and pathways. It raises glucagon that raises glucose and also growth hormone that does the same and then it raises insulin; talk about metabolic schizophrenia. It profoundly raises mTOR increasing risk of cancer. I will answer more thoroughly when I have time. Thanks.

I find the role of the mTOR pathway highly interesting. It supposedly regulates longevity, and maybe other things too. Keeping this pathway down regulated, is one more reason to limit excessive protein intake, osit. But maybe this needs to be investigated some more, I suspect there's a lot more to this yet to be discovered.

 

[mcb]

Re: Ketogenic Diet - Path To Transformation?

...Insulin stops ketosis outright, no? ...

I don't know if we can say that just yet for sure. With the science so biased toward glucose as "normal" and ketones to stave off starvation, progress in discovering the fine details can be slow. But for now, yes, sort of.

Many substances are produced through enzyme-mediated reactions. For an enzyme to participate it must be activated. The mechanisms for doing that vary, as do the triggers. If an enzyme is switched off, the reaction doesn't occur. Also, a pathway may have "limiting reagents." If a limiting (re)agent isn't available, the pathway shuts down. Insulin can shut down free fatty acid (FFA) production, and without that ketogenesis can't proceed in the liver. Insulin also increases production of Malonyl CoA, inhibiting CPT1 (one step in the pathway). Glucagon also plays a role, operating in opposition to insulin. A high glucagon:insulin ratio favors ketogenesis, and a low one counteracts it.

So for any given carb/fat intake ratio, your body will regulate blood sugar into a certain range either raising it by converting ketones to glucose or lower it by using insulin to store glucose in fat. Is this correct? So in order to stay in ketosis we need to eat less than this amount. No more than 72 grams of carbs per day should be needed for a functional body to meet it's needs. If you eat less than your glucose-dependent organs require, then ketones will be converted to glucose to make up for it. If a very small amount of carbs are eaten, will ketone-glucose conversion drop off to compensate before insulin is released or is the insulin released first?

If 72g of carbs are needed in a day, and you eat 36g, you will be out of ketosis for about half a day, is this correct? Can we say that a small amount of carbs, say 12g, will keep someone out of ketosis for 2 hours mathematically, depending on their body?

Not as far as I know. When blood sugar is low, glucagon causes the liver to convert glucogen to glucose via glycogenolysis. When blood sugar is high, insulin stimulates conversion of glucose to glycogen via glycogenesis, as well as directing muscle and fat cells to take up glucose. The number of grams of input carbs needed per day for a "functional body" is zero as far as I know. The body can produce any carbs it requires.

The brain can use both glucose and ketone bodies directly and at the same time. This reduces the need for gluconeogenesis when glucose is low. Over time, the brain can adapt to using a greater and greater proportion of ketone bodies. I am concerned, however, that the available research may be skewed by the view that this is only a fasting/starvation mechanism, and I am not sure exactly what to believe of what I have been reading.

When you are adapting to a ketogenic diet, there seems to be a carb intake threshold for making that happen, and maybe that is what you were thinking of. I have read recently that the adaptation delay involves, at least in part, allowing time for sufficient reserves of the necessary enzymes to be synthesized to handle the increased volume of energy production from fat. You have some reserve to begin with, to handle ketosis while sleeping. If you have been a heavy carb burner, though, you don't have enough to just suddenly switch. You have to "retool" your enzymes. Once you have the enzymes, they can be activated and deactivated as needed.

Once you have adapted, you should be able to consume carbs, fat, or both (as well as protein). I am not saying that consuming carbs is optimal; only that you should be able to use either. There seems to be extra baggage associated with carbs.

Consuming carbs suspends ketogenesis, but pathway enzymes are deactivated, not destroyed. As your glucagon:insulin ratio rises again, ketogenesis will resume. Presumably, if you resumed a high carb diet your enzymes would eventually retool to the new workload, but I haven't seen any research about that.

Hey, look what I just found on the wikipedia page on lactic acid:...

...So, lactic acid, or lactate in solute form, can be converted into glucose. I wonder how much glucose it makes. I suppose if it added extra carbs it would be on the nutrition panel? Or do they ignore this sort of thing?

There is also the idea that if the brain can use lactate as an energy source, then consuming some lactic acid might decrease the brain's need for glucose. Glycolysis produces lactic acid, so someone in ketosis might have less of it in their blood.

It is worth noting that lactic acid is Chiral; it has two molecular configurations. I seem to remember Laura wrote something discussing this concerning DNA and circularly polarized light, and chiral amino acids, but my memory is very dim here.

Wikipedia only briefly discusses the biology of acetic acid, so I'm not sure what to think of it.

I am not sure what you are saying here. Muscles convert lactate back to pyruvate during recovery, when oxygen is restored. It's interesting that the brain also would have an additional pathway for using lactic acid in a pinch, but if it is primarily running on ketone bodies, does it matter? It might, in that the lactic acid pathway could still operate if needed, assuming that it was still available when ketone consumption was dominant. Keep in mind that these mice being studied were more than likely on a horrible, unnatural standard diet. Pretty much the same thing goes for the athletes. Most research assumes glucose as the primary fuel. Am I missing something?

 

[mcb]

Re: Ketogenic Diet - Path To Transformation?

...On the subject of protein intake, I found this via facebook a couple days ago regarding gluconeogenesis:

_http://www.ketotic.org/2012/08/if-you-eat-excess-protein-does-it-turn.html

I saw that this week; good article.

Further experiments need to be carried out to answer the question completely...

That applies to SO many things. Unfortunately, the research tends to chase after funding, and the big money is in finding patentable drugs, so the "health" research (as opposed to "disease treatment" research) operates on limited funding. Then there is this rather pervasive assumption that humans (among other animals) run on glucose, period, unless they are starving. And then there are the wacky diets fed to animal and human research subjects alike. To name a few factors.

A lot of what we find may have to be from trial and error! But I think it is highly worthwhile to continue to look for clues in the research, reading between the lines as necessary.

 

[Tomek]

Re: Ketogenic Diet - Path To Transformation?

Alright, I'm in ketosis since 5 days, I didn't needed to fast : I was already on a VLC diet, switching to zero carbs wasn't hard. The ketostix are always purple. But since yesterday in the morning, I'm having, again, troubles to concentrate, and a "feeling weird" sensation in my head. Usually, this issues are combined with migraines and headaches, but not this time.

I still having this concentration issue this morning, probably related to the adaptation, or a brain inflammation, I'm not sure... Anyone noticed that too ?

 

[Laura]

Re: Ketogenic Diet - Path To Transformation?

Alright, I'm in ketosis since 5 days, I didn't needed to fast : I was already on a VLC diet, switching to zero carbs wasn't hard. The ketostix are always purple. But since yesterday in the morning, I'm having, again, troubles to concentrate, and a "feeling weird" sensation in my head. Usually, this issues are combined with migraines and headaches, but not this time.

I still having this concentration issue this morning, probably related to the adaptation, or a brain inflammation, I'm not sure... Anyone noticed that too ?

I had it initially, but I wasn't having bone broth every day then. I also found that taking some potassium and having extra salt helped. This time around, with the fatty bone broth every day, I have no problems.

 

[Tomek]

Re: Ketogenic Diet - Path To Transformation?

Alright, I'm in ketosis since 5 days, I didn't needed to fast : I was already on a VLC diet, switching to zero carbs wasn't hard. The ketostix are always purple. But since yesterday in the morning, I'm having, again, troubles to concentrate, and a "feeling weird" sensation in my head. Usually, this issues are combined with migraines and headaches, but not this time.

I still having this concentration issue this morning, probably related to the adaptation, or a brain inflammation, I'm not sure... Anyone noticed that too ?

I had it initially, but I wasn't having bone broth every day then. I also found that taking some potassium and having extra salt helped. This time around, with the fatty bone broth every day, I have no problems.

Thanks for the tip !

 

[Ca.]

Re: Ketogenic Diet - Path To Transformation?

c.a., did you read this entire thread before you embarked on your fast?

Sorry i did not respond sooner. The Orange box (internet provider) went on the blink some time yesterday, and only began to work this morning.

Yes i have read some the details, i believe and think i understand the concept. Though you did reiterate that it was not necessary to become bonged down with the technical jargon. So far I've viewed the article's by Alien ( http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC2367001/ ), Oxajil ( _http://paleodietlifestyle.com/intermittent-fasting-paleo-diet/ ), your discussion, the sensible, and safe way to benefit the Ketogenic diet as the Rhythm Diet, and the PDF you recommended
(http://www.google.com/url?sa=t&rct=j&q=&esrc=s&source=web&cd=2&ved=0CGwQFjAB&url=http%3A%2F%2Fsurvivalbiology.files.wordpress.com%2F2011%2F08%2Fmitochondrial-energetics-douglas-c-wallace.pdf&ei=8OEeULrxDajV0QXmgIEI&usg=AFQjCNGIBk0aI7QDy7DzjB2AOKs21dB2bw&sig2=I4nR9Tr1_6IhR5mk2jDruA), Mitochondrial Energetics and Therapeutics.

The PDF requires a some biology background (which i unfortunately lack), but found it interesting to read the technical information, which describes the process ( using the key words, Mitochondria, oxidative phosphorylation, mitochondrial disorders, redox state, mitochondrial therapies), and what the connection is to each other plays in the relationship to the Ketogenic process. All this information will be read and reread, for better absorption, and comprehension for my benefit from a health perspective, to assure that this is done safely, but thoroughly.

I've battled weight issues from about Jr. high school, until around the early 90's, and tried all the diets, and fades with little success. I found what truly worked was less fuel in, more energy out, which was why i make so much noise about exercise and the benefits. But even then, the information i had was still incorrect. Even though i was able to bring my body mass down, and became so what healthier, the chemistry was still off after reading what has been shared.

Doing the 50% carbs, 30% protein, 20% fat ratio, was suppose to initiate the fat burning processes. Though i lost some weight, and had worked out very aggressively, the to carbs (wheat, fruit, vegetables) were way to heavy, to bring about the desired results, and necessary changes. i was burning, glucose, not keton's, which is the true facilitator of burning body fat, by eating fat.

As of yesterday after a good nights sleep, (and off the 24 fast the night before), i had some bacon grease mixed in with the soup made before. Once again just eating the broth, and some of the protein, for breakfast to start the day. But i became some what sleepy, and took a one hour nap from 9 to 10 am, and felt really good after waking, with no feelings of huger, (or thoughts of food, or eating anything else), and started my day. Which was very busy, and productive (drinking water with magnesium all day) until the late evening. For dinner i had the same routine, as well as for breakfast this morning, and feel good and well rested after a fair nights sleep.

Yesterday i was able to acquire a generous portion of beef bones from the local butcher, for the broth to be made on the days of the fast.

Question is, is it ok to mix in some vegetables, garlic, etc., to the boiling process (which will be pressure cooked) to add to the flavor, (and would be discarded) or would that be defeating the process of the broth?

 

[Laura]

Re: Ketogenic Diet - Path To Transformation?

c.a., let me run through it ONE MORE TIME here.

When you get up in the morning, you can - and probably should - have a nice protein breakfast such as bacon, maybe eggs if you tolerate them. Add a cup of broth if you like. This should be every single day even on the "protein restriction/semi-fasting" days.

Then, on normal days, have a bit of meat AND broth for lunch, a bit of meat and maybe a bit of lettuce if you like, for dinner. Or just broth, or just meat. This meat should be the amount that is right for your weight. If you like, you can go a few grams over, but not more than that. Try to make sure you get the ratio of fat with this meat that is correct.

On the restriction/semi-fast days, have the breakfast and then just bone broth for lunch and dinner and a snack if needed. That, right there, gives you your fat, your nutrients, but restricts your protein.

It really is that simple.

It IS important to have protein for breakfast every day.

 

[aragorn]

Re: Ketogenic Diet - Path To Transformation?

Made my first bone broth yesterday :)

I used two pieces of pigs feet, put them in the pressure canner/cooker for three hours. I used an insert pot of stainless steel, since my canner is made of aluminium. Worked well. After this I cracked open the bones and let it simmer in the pot for yet a while. After cooling, the consistence became a very thick gelatine, so I guess it succeeded pretty well?

This was enough for two pint jars full of broth, and the cost was under two euros-not bad!

 

[Ca.]

Re: Ketogenic Diet - Path To Transformation?

c.a., let me run through it ONE MORE TIME here.

When you get up in the morning, you can - and probably should - have a nice protein breakfast such as bacon, maybe eggs if you tolerate them. Add a cup of broth if you like. This should be every single day even on the "protein restriction/semi-fasting" days.

Then, on normal days, have a bit of meat AND broth for lunch, a bit of meat and maybe a bit of lettuce if you like, for dinner. Or just broth, or just meat. This meat should be the amount that is right for your weight. If you like, you can go a few grams over, but not more than that. Try to make sure you get the ratio of fat with this meat that is correct.

On the restriction/semi-fast days, have the breakfast and then just bone broth for lunch and dinner and a snack if needed. That, right there, gives you your fat, your nutrients, but restricts your protein.

It really is that simple.

It IS important to have protein for breakfast every day.

Ok, i see what you are saying. It is not like i am trying to starve myself, i can say that feeling of hunger just isn't the same haven restricted the carbohydrates. This afternoon aim preparing some more bacon fat, but will include some lean turkey, that i will consume with some butter leaf lettuce.

Your input was the same as the thoughts i had, as i felt like i needed a little more protein today, and that i needed to kick up a bit to maintain metal, and bodily function's.

Thanks, it is much appreciated Laura, as well as all others that have provided readings that give this diet a better understand to the proper approach.

I'am actually enjoying rebooting new ideas, to an age old problem.

 

[Chu]

Re: Ketogenic Diet - Path To Transformation?

Ok, i see what you are saying. It is not like i am trying to starve myself, i can say that feeling of hunger just isn't the same haven restricted the carbohydrates. This afternoon aim preparing some more bacon fat, but will include some lean turkey, that i will consume with some butter leaf lettuce.

That's a start, but I don't know why you have to have LEAN turkey. Just forget about all that programming! If meat naturallly has fat, it's meant to be eaten that way. Also, a lot of people seem to have found out that poultry is not the best. Not only are birds fed really bad nowadays, but it's also too lean. So, why don't you just enjoy a fatty steak or a fatty pork chop with that bacon fat?

 

[Laura]

Re: Ketogenic Diet - Path To Transformation?

Ok, i see what you are saying. It is not like i am trying to starve myself, i can say that feeling of hunger just isn't the same haven restricted the carbohydrates. This afternoon aim preparing some more bacon fat, but will include some lean turkey, that i will consume with some butter leaf lettuce.

That's a start, but I don't know why you have to have LEAN turkey. Just forget about all that programming! If meat naturallly has fat, it's meant to be eaten that way. Also, a lot of people seem to have found out that poultry is not the best. Not only are birds fed really bad nowadays, but it's also too lean. So, why don't you just enjoy a fatty steak or a fatty pork chop with that bacon fat?

It really is amazing how thoroughly people's minds have been programmed against fat. I can tell you that if I'm going to eat something, I want it to be as fatty as I can tolerate at that moment. Don't see any point in wasting chewing time and stomach space on anything lean or on veggies that just tear me up.

 

[Chu]

Re: Ketogenic Diet - Path To Transformation?

Thanks for the videos, dugdeep, parallel and heron dancer! I found most of them to be quite easy and helpful (especially those linked to by dugdeep). Too bad they don't really talk about the benefits of ketosis. That professor on the ketone bodies video really made me laugh with his "this is why it's so dangerous" BS. He kept contradicting himself and making it sound like ketoacidosis is always a byproduct, plus he couldn't let go of the "total starvation" problem. Maybe he doesn't know that you can follow a ketogenic diet, and thinks that only fools would starve themselves and reach ketosis. But I thought the cellular process was well explained. Time to read the papers again and get more out of them!

I also found a series of videos by Dr. Gregory Ellis on youtube, which had some interesting comments even if they cover mostly just the basics. Just type his name on Youtube and you'll find a lot of videos available (I've only watched 3 so far).

He also wrote a series of books. Has anyone here read them?

http://www.byebyecarbs.com/

I don't know whether they are any good or not, but they look like they may have good points in them, and are probably quite an easy read. I'd like to read some. Anyway, just asking in case somebody has already read them or is interested. I found him to be a bit on the "commercial" side at times, but not too bad if it gets him to educate people. Plus, he did make free videos and seems to be a fairly honest guy from the way he talks. If he doesn't know something, he admits it, but he does quote some research and seems to be quite interested in the aspect of ponerization of science. FWIW.

 

[mcb]

Re: Ketogenic Diet - Path To Transformation?

Ok, i see what you are saying. It is not like i am trying to starve myself, i can say that feeling of hunger just isn't the same haven restricted the carbohydrates. This afternoon aim preparing some more bacon fat, but will include some lean turkey, that i will consume with some butter leaf lettuce.

That's a start, but I don't know why you have to have LEAN turkey. Just forget about all that programming! If meat naturallly has fat, it's meant to be eaten that way. Also, a lot of people seem to have found out that poultry is not the best. Not only are birds fed really bad nowadays, but it's also too lean. So, why don't you just enjoy a fatty steak or a fatty pork chop with that bacon fat?

There is also an issue with excess omega-6 fatty acids with turkey and other birds, I believe. If you Google the subject you can find all sorts of conflicting information, but general theme I have encountered is that when birds are raised on a ranch (as opposed to living in the wild) and when they are fed unnatural diets (especially grains), this and other nutritional imbalances result.

I have read that lean turkey is not high in Ω-6's. Well of course! Ω-6's are fatty acids (fats). But what have we been saying here about low-fat meats? So unless you are raising your own poultry under near-natural conditions, or buying it from someone that does, it may very well not be worthwhile to bother with it.

There is evidence that both low-fat and high-Ω-6 to Ω-3 ratio (driven in part by depletion of Ω-3 by grain food sources) are among the major if not leading causes of the current health "crisis." The high ratio promotes inflammation. This is also an issue with grain-feeding of other animals including cattle. (People eating a "western diet" also receive an excess of Ω-6's from vegetable oils, either by using them directly or by consuming processed foods that are laced with them.)

I don't think that this is necessarily the final word on the subject but personally, I just don't find poultry particularly satiating. That might sound like a subjective statement, but our bodies do have the ability to evaluate the nutritional profile of foods, if we will eliminate toxins (e.g. sugar) that inhibit that ability, and deal with programs that prompt us to ignore the information.

 

[monotonic]

Re: Ketogenic Diet - Path To Transformation?

My brother always clips the fat off of meat unless it is naturally fed, because he says it does more harm than good to eat it if the animal was grain-fed. Does this make sense? We usually eat naturally fed meats. I believed him and thought he learned about it here, but when learning more I am realizing some of his ideas don't really make sense even though he read most of the material before I did and he was the one organizing most of our diet while we were on it.