Ketogenic Diet - Powerful Dietary Strategy for Certain Conditions

Re: Ketogenic Diet - Path To Transformation?

Thanks for all the tips, HifromGrace!

Just a little note on:

HifromGrace said:
If I only have chicken bones for the batch (we just chuck em in the freezer after each meal to accumulate for a future broth), I find that I rarely get gelatin. Donno why, it still puzzles me. But you only need to cook it for one day for a rich broth with chicken.


and:


Hildegarda said:
HifromGrace said:
If I only have chicken bones for the batch (we just chuck em in the freezer after each meal to accumulate for a future broth), I find that I rarely get gelatin. Donno why, it still puzzles me.

fwiw, I get the gelatinized broth from organic free-range chicken bones but not from regular chicken. I guess it is the "you are what you eat" thing for the bird. Also, the regular store-bought chicken is usually injected with saline or some kind of enzyme solution to artificially plump it up. I wonder if that does something to the bones as well.


Do you, HifromGrace, cook the chicken with the bone before freezing the leftover bones? (Since you write that you freeze them after the meal.) If so, that might be a reason for less or no gelatine?

The chicken's life, like Hildegarda already wrote, has a strong influence as well, so it makes sense to look for organic free-range. Just a little glimpse into the chicken-farming-industry: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ZteKtVwwAOo&feature=related

Hope that helps...

Greetings!
 
Re: Ketogenic Diet - Path To Transformation?

Here again is the comparison of nutrient content of beef and kelp and blueberries for those that may have missed it the first time.

liver.jpeg


Insulin stops ketosis outright, no? So for any given carb/fat intake ratio, your body will regulate blood sugar into a certain range either raising it by converting ketones to glucose or lower it by using insulin to store glucose in fat. Is this correct? So in order to stay in ketosis we need to eat less than this amount. No more than 72 grams of carbs per day should be needed for a functional body to meet it's needs. If you eat less than your glucose-dependent organs require, then ketones will be converted to glucose to make up for it. If a very small amount of carbs are eaten, will ketone-glucose conversion drop off to compensate before insulin is released or is the insulin released first?

If 72g of carbs are needed in a day, and you eat 36g, you will be out of ketosis for about half a day, is this correct? Can we say that a small amount of carbs, say 12g, will keep someone out of ketosis for 2 hours mathematically, depending on their body?

For bone broth, what I've gathered so far:

1: Break bones if possible to release the marrow.
2: use only enough water to submerge the bones.
3: broth is done when the marrow is grey and transformed.
4: Add enough fat to cover the surface if desired.
5: add a teaspoon or so of vinegar (or kraut juice?) to extract more nutrients and get a richer broth.
6: when done, take out the bones, blend it up, add salt and seasonings to taste and refrigerate.

On a side note, I read that eggshells can be soaked in lemon juice to create a highly absorbable source of calcium. I had the idea of putting eggshells in sauerkraut. Like sauerkraut, cultured butter has lactic acid in it. I've noticed lactic acid really seems to bring out the flavors in stews and stir fries. Being the product of lactobacilli, an important gut bacteria, it should be producing lactic acid in our guts all the time. So maybe lactic acid or kraut juice (or just using cultured butter) could be another digestive aid like the vinegar does to help digesting fat. Perhaps even better, as acetic acid is the byproduct of aerobic yeast, whereas lactic acid is a byproduct of lactobacteria which are anaerobic and are a large part of our gut bacteria. I know that lactic acid is also produced in the muscles during glycolysis, but not during ketosis.

In fact, could this be why butter is more edible for Gawan? Cultured butter naturally contains lactic acid. It is often added to non-cultured butters to improve the taste.

Hey, look what I just found on the wikipedia page on lactic acid:

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Lactic_acid#Brain_metabolism said:
Although glucose is usually assumed to be the main energy source for living tissues, there are some indications that it is lactate, and not glucose, that is preferentially metabolized by neurons in the brain of several mammals species (the notable ones being mice, rats, and humans).[13][14] According to the lactate-shuttling hypothesis, glial cells are responsible for transforming glucose into lactate, and for providing lactate to the neurons.[15][16] Because of this local metabolic activity of glial cells, the extracellular fluid immediately surrounding neurons strongly differs in composition from the blood or cerebro-spinal fluid, being much richer with lactate, as it was found in microdialysis studies.[13]

...

A more recent paper by Zilberter's group looked directly at the energy metabolism features in brain slices of mice and showed that beta-hydroxybutyrate, lactate and pyruvate acted as oxidative energy substrates causing an increase in the NAD(P)H oxidation phase, that glucose was insufficient as an energy carrier during intense synaptic activity and finally, that lactate can be an efficient energy substrate capable of sustaining and enhancing brain aerobic energy metabolism in vitro.[21] The paper was positively commented by Kasischke: "The study by Ivanov et al. (2011) also provides novel data on biphasic NAD(P)H fluorescence transients, an important physiological response to neural activation that has been reproduced in many studies and that is believed to originate predominately from activity-induced concentration changes to the cellular NADH pools."[22]

I bolded the parts that stuck out though I don't really understand much of this stuff. Some more info:

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Lactic_acid#Exercise_and_lactate said:
During power exercises such as sprinting, when the rate of demand for energy is high, glucose is broken down and oxidized to pyruvate, and lactate is produced from the pyruvate faster than the tissues can remove it, so lactate concentration begins to rise. The production of lactate is a beneficial process because it regenerates NAD+ which is used up in the creation of pyruvate from glucose, and this ensures that energy production is maintained and exercise can continue. The increased lactate produced can be removed in two ways:

Oxidation back to pyruvate by well-oxygenated muscle cells[citation needed]
Pyruvate is then directly used to fuel the Krebs cycle.
Conversion to glucose via gluconeogenesis in the liver and release back into circulation; see Cori cycle.[9]
If not released, the glucose can be used to build up the liver's glycogen stores if they are empty.


Strenuous anaerobic exercise causes a lowering of pH and pain, called acidosis.

The effect of lactate production on acidosis has been the topic of many recent conferences in the field of exercise physiology. Robergs et al. have discussed the creation of H+ ions that occurs during glycolysis.[10] and claim that the idea that acidosis is caused by the production of lactic acid is a myth (a "construct"), pointing out that part of the lowering of pH is due to the reaction ATP-4+H2O=ADP-3+HPO4-2+H+, and that reducing pyruvate to lactate (pyruvate+NADH+H+=lactate+NAD+) actually consumes H+. However, a response by Lindinger et al.[11] has been written claiming that Robergs et alii ignored the causative factors of the increase in concentration of hydrogen ions (denoted [H+]). Specifically, lactate is an anion, and its production causes a reduction in the amount of cations such as Na+ minus anions, and thus causes an increase in [H+] to maintain electroneutrality. Increasing partial pressure of CO2, PCO2, also causes an increase in [H+]. During exercise, the intramuscular lactate concentration and PCO2 increase, causing an increase in [H+], and, thus, a decrease in pH. (See Le Chatelier's principle)

During intense exercise, the respiratory chain cannot keep up with the amount of hydrogen atoms that join to form NADH. NAD+ is required to oxidize 3-phosphoglyceraldehyde in order to maintain the production of anaerobic energy during glycolysis. During anaerobic glycolysis, NAD+ is “freed up” when NADH combines with pyruvate to form lactate (as mentioned above). If this did not occur, glycolysis would come to a stop. However, lactate is continually formed even at rest and during moderate exercise. This occurs due to the metabolism of red blood cells that do not have mitochondria and limitations resulting from the enzyme activity that occurs in muscle fibers having a high glycolytic capacity.[12]

So, lactic acid, or lactate in solute form, can be converted into glucose. I wonder how much glucose it makes. I suppose if it added extra carbs it would be on the nutrition panel? Or do they ignore this sort of thing?

There is also the idea that if the brain can use lactate as an energy source, then consuming some lactic acid might decrease the brain's need for glucose. Glycolysis produces lactic acid, so someone in ketosis might have less of it in their blood.

It is worth noting that lactic acid is Chiral; it has two molecular configurations. I seem to remember Laura wrote something discussing this concerning DNA and circularly polarized light, and chiral amino acids, but my memory is very dim here.

Wikipedia only briefly discusses the biology of acetic acid, so I'm not sure what to think of it.
 
Re: Ketogenic Diet - Path To Transformation?

Report on my second total fasting day on yesterday:
Weight on the morning: 47kg. Thus I got back the weight lost the day of the precedent fasting day. Temperature was of 36.4°C on the morning and of 37.2°C on the evening.
I could make my resistance exercices without any problem contrary in as it was the previous day (the day I ate). I felt very well during this second fasting day, and went to sleep at 10.30pm.

This morning I woke-up at 6.30am. I took a tepid shower because I felt pains in the low back, maybe due to the exercises of yesterday, but considering my not famous humor this morning, it is rather possible than the night was "shaken" by a point of view of the psyche. FWIW. So I will make some pipe breath later in the morning and will certainly feel better after this. Let's see and report.

I also made a mistake in a previous post by talking about pain in my left shoulder, it was my right shoulder. I also had forgot on this post to mention I also had a little pain in my right knee which disappeared on the day after. And this morning I've got one on my left knee, and will see if it also disappear in the next hours.

All these could have to do with a kind of reparation, I guess, so I do not worry about and take them as "normal" at this point.

This morning my temp. was of 36.6°C and my weight was of 36.2kg. I hope that this "yoyo" between fasting day and eating day has no incidence by the way. Did anybody notice the same thing?

Another thing I noticed at this point of the KD is I look feel better during the fasting day than during the eating day. Any reasons known for this? :shock:

I asked to my butcher which were the fattest piece in lamb and his answer was the necklace of lamb (in Fr. collier d'agneau) often use to prepare some "pâté". For the pork, it is the lard piece of course but there is also another piece which is very fat: in the spinal column especially for chop and roast (in Fr. dans l'échine). I ordered feet of pork and the necklace of lamb today who are going to generate a lot of fat jelly in my next bone broth. After that, we can eat the meat cooked in the broth during the eating day and here is only to make them warmwhich is easy and make win time. :cool2:
 
Re: Ketogenic Diet - Path To Transformation?

Laura said:
Heimdallr said:
Laura said:
So, for the heart thing, sounds like it's bone broth regularly for potassium with maybe a small bit supplemented, and possibly a tad of magnesium. Okay, I can do that. Just took one. I'll continue for a few days and report back.

I had the bone broth for dinner last night, a generous bowl with lots of fat from the bone, and before bed supplemented with magnesium and potassium and had a full night's sleep without waking up once. I woke up after about 7 hours of sleep and I was fully refreshed. No crazy heartbeat or anything during the night.

I'm really glad you are sleeping now. Sounds like the right combination. So anyone else having similar problems, try it and see if the results replicate.

I haven't yet solved the problem with my odd sleeping pattern. I've tried taking potassium and magnesium before bed, but I still wake up after 3-4 hours of sleep. However, when waking up I don't feel tired or worried because of the lack of sleep (like I used to, on "bad nights). Last night, this same thing happened again - went to bed at 22.30, woke up at 02.30. Then I had a smoke, read some articles and went back to bed at ca 04.00. Then I slept until 07.30. I don't feel like this kind of sleeping pattern is doing any damage, but it IS a mystery to me, why I started having this biphasic sleep some months ago.
 
Re: Ketogenic Diet - Path To Transformation?

MK Scarlett said:
Report on my second total fasting day on yesterday:
Weight on the morning: 47kg. Thus I got back the weight lost the day of the precedent fasting day. Temperature was of 36.4°C on the morning and of 37.2°C on the evening.

and

MK Scarlett said:
This morning my temp. was of 36.6°C and my weight was of 36.2kg. I hope that this "yoyo" between fasting day and eating day has no incidence by the way. Did anybody notice the same thing?
Hi MK Scarlett,

It seems from the two quotes above that you're saying you lost 10 kilograms (approximately 22 pounds) in one day? Is this correct?
 
Re: Ketogenic Diet - Path To Transformation?

truth seeker said:
MK Scarlett said:
Report on my second total fasting day on yesterday:
Weight on the morning: 47kg. Thus I got back the weight lost the day of the precedent fasting day. Temperature was of 36.4°C on the morning and of 37.2°C on the evening.

and

MK Scarlett said:
This morning my temp. was of 36.6°C and my weight was of 36.2kg. I hope that this "yoyo" between fasting day and eating day has no incidence by the way. Did anybody notice the same thing?
Hi MK Scarlett,

It seems from the two quotes above that you're saying you lost 10 kilograms (approximately 22 pounds) in one day? Is this correct?

Thank you truth seeker for having seen this mistake... :-[

My meaning was:
This morning my temp. was of 36.6°C and my weight was of 46.2kg... I also note these datas on a book, but I made the same mistake on it and in French! :scared:
My mind surely was not well wake-up this morning... :zzz:
Fortunately, I did not lose 10 kg but approximatively 1kg.
 
Re: Ketogenic Diet - Path To Transformation?

MK Scarlett said:
My meaning was:
This morning my temp. was of 36.6°C and my weight was of 46.2kg... I also note these datas on a book, but I made the same mistake on it and in French! :scared:
My mind surely was not well wake-up this morning... :zzz:
Fortunately, I did not lose 10 kg but approximatively 1kg.
Whew! Had me concerned there for a moment. Thanks for the clarification. :)
 
Re: Ketogenic Diet - Path To Transformation?

Aragorn said:
I haven't yet solved the problem with my odd sleeping pattern. I've tried taking potassium and magnesium before bed, but I still wake up after 3-4 hours of sleep. However, when waking up I don't feel tired or worried because of the lack of sleep (like I used to, on "bad nights). Last night, this same thing happened again - went to bed at 22.30, woke up at 02.30. Then I had a smoke, read some articles and went back to bed at ca 04.00. Then I slept until 07.30. I don't feel like this kind of sleeping pattern is doing any damage, but it IS a mystery to me, why I started having this biphasic sleep some months ago.

I've had the same sleeping pattern for months now. I usually go to bed between 11 and 12 and wake up around 3 a.m., then I stay awake between 30 and 90 minutes. During this time I smoke, do some crosswords, read.

Initially I thought it was part of recovering a normal sleeping pattern since three years ago, I got sick and my sleeping pattern was all messed up. I couldn't sleep more than one hour in a row. Months after months I could sleep longer until reaching this point where I usually wake up once in the middle of the night.

It might have something to do with sleeping cycles. In average they last 90 minutes, so getting asleep at 12 and waking up at 3 would equate to two full sleep cycles before waking up.

By typing "waking up in the middle of the night" I noticed that many people experience this same "waking up at the same time every night" syndrom. However I didn't find any really convincing explanation yet. :huh:
 
Re: Ketogenic Diet - Path To Transformation?

MK Scarlett said:
Report on my second total fasting day on yesterday:
Weight on the morning: 47kg. Thus I got back the weight lost the day of the precedent fasting day. Temperature was of 36.4°C on the morning and of 37.2°C on the evening.
I could make my resistance exercices without any problem contrary in as it was the previous day (the day I ate). I felt very well during this second fasting day, and went to sleep at 10.30pm.

I'm just curious, MK, are you eating anything when you fast?
 
Re: Ketogenic Diet - Path To Transformation?

See: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Polyphasic_sleep

And: http://www.stevepavlina.com/blog/2006/04/polyphasic-sleep-the-return-to-monophasic/ where the guy suggests that the key to getting back to a monphasic pattern is to simply get up earlier in the morning.
 
Re: Ketogenic Diet - Path To Transformation?

truth seeker said:
MK Scarlett said:
My meaning was:
This morning my temp. was of 36.6°C and my weight was of 46.2kg... I also note these datas on a book, but I made the same mistake on it and in French! :scared:
My mind surely was not well wake-up this morning... :zzz:
Fortunately, I did not lose 10 kg but approximatively 1kg.
Whew! Had me concerned there for a moment. Thanks for the clarification. :)

I am sorry to have created an anxiety for you truth seeker, especially that it was about an error and than I do not want to do it. Please accept my apologies. :-[

Nienna Eluch said:
MK Scarlett said:
Report on my second total fasting day on yesterday:
Weight on the morning: 47kg. Thus I got back the weight lost the day of the precedent fasting day. Temperature was of 36.4°C on the morning and of 37.2°C on the evening.
I could make my resistance exercices without any problem contrary in as it was the previous day (the day I ate). I felt very well during this second fasting day, and went to sleep at 10.30pm.

I'm just curious, MK, are you eating anything when you fast?

During the fast day I just drink a bone broth (pretty fat) at the end of the day which make me fasting during approximatively 24 hours... And all day long, water, water, and water. Also one or twice by day, magnesium and potassium via two different salts if I feel a small reduction in energy. Are you thinking of anything in particular?
 
Re: Ketogenic Diet - Path To Transformation?

monotonic said:
Insulin stops ketosis outright, no? So for any given carb/fat intake ratio, your body will regulate blood sugar into a certain range either raising it by converting ketones to glucose or lower it by using insulin to store glucose in fat. Is this correct? So in order to stay in ketosis we need to eat less than this amount. No more than 72 grams of carbs per day should be needed for a functional body to meet it's needs. If you eat less than your glucose-dependent organs require, then ketones will be converted to glucose to make up for it.

You've got things fairly muddled here, monotonic :) Have you read any of the books that are considered essential reading on the topic of the diet from the LWB thread, like 'The Art and Science of Low Carbohydrate Living' or 'Primal Body, Primal Mind'? They cover this topic in detail. If you've already read them then I think it's time for a review.

First of all, ketones are not converted to glucose. Ever. It just can't be done. And insulin does not stop ketosis outright. As people have been mentioning all through the LWB thread, there is a certain "carbohydrate tolerance" level, below which keeps one in ketosis. If insulin stopped ketosis outright, no one would ever be in ketosis because there is always a certain amount of glucose in the blood needing to get to some cells and even some amino acids require insulin for cellular transport.

Also, your body doesn't need any carbohydrate to fulfill its carbohydrate needs, since there is a process called gluconeogenesis where the body creates glucose out of protein, and part of the vehicle fatty acids are bundled in (triglycerides), called glycerol, is converted to glucose after digestion. 72 grams of dietary carbs is too much for most people and, although they'll derive some benefit from being this low in carbs, it will not keep them in ketosis.

[quote author=monotonic]
If a very small amount of carbs are eaten, will ketone-glucose conversion drop off to compensate before insulin is released or is the insulin released first?
[/quote]

It's hard to answer this question because there's nothing in it that is based on an understanding of what's actually going on in the body :) Insulin is released in response to blood sugar rises. It has nothing to do with whether gluconeogenesis is happening or not. And again, ketones are not converted to glucose.

[quote author=monotonic]
If 72g of carbs are needed in a day, and you eat 36g, you will be out of ketosis for about half a day, is this correct? Can we say that a small amount of carbs, say 12g, will keep someone out of ketosis for 2 hours mathematically, depending on their body?
[/quote]

Again, you've got things completely backward here. The lower you go in carbs the MORE likely you are to be in ketosis. You REALLY need to read the relevant material to get up to speed on this.

Also, everything you've written on lactic acid, while interesting, is really a side issue. Lactic acid is non-essential and doesn't really have anything to do with ketosis or the ketogenic diet. With all the effort everyone is putting into lowering our protein consumption to avoid having it converted to glucose, why woulld you think we'd be looking for other sources, like lactic acid, that are converted to glucose? In fact, we're actively trying to avoid them!

If you haven't done so, you should really read the LWB thread. I know it's long, but you clearly need a number of things straightened out in your mind BEFORE embarking on these dietary changes. Everything you've written here shows that you're not ready for this. I say this, not to be harsh or to ridicule (hope it doesn't come across that way), but for your own protection :)

FWIW.
 
Re: Ketogenic Diet - Path To Transformation?

dugdeep said:
If you haven't done so, you should really read the LWB thread. I know it's long, but you clearly need a number of things straightened out in your mind BEFORE embarking on these dietary changes. Everything you've written here shows that you're not ready for this. I say this, not to be harsh or to ridicule (hope it doesn't come across that way), but for your own protection :)

I totally agree. It is not the first time, monotonic. I really wouldn't do you any good to embark on this diet if you don't even know the basics. So, why don't you spend some time catching up before trying this out?
 
Re: Ketogenic Diet - Path To Transformation?

Laura said:
I'm thinking that people who get nauseated or who have stomach aches from too much fat should maybe adjust the protein up a tad and/or the fat down to find what is exactly comfortable. It IS summer time for those of us in the Northern Hemisphere, after all. And we are having a series of hot days. Right after drinking that broth, you sure do get heated up!

Indeed! After 2 weeks of adjustments, I started feeling REALLY hot every day (the weather is hot over here, but never in my life have I suffered from it, even in hotter climates), only feeling well after a cold bath. I also felt nauseated. The first week I was full of energy, but as I got more "adapted", it became too much, I guess. My body is screaming "Please, let it be Winter!" So, today I increased the proteins a bit (I was always under my limit I think), and reduced the fat a tiny bit, having it in very small quantities at a time. I just used a ketostix, and am still in full ketosis (even though it may not be that reliable, I feel I'm still in ketosis, bad breath, etc.). And I have twice as much energy as yesterday.

So, FWIW, I think there is something to the seasonal aspect, and although we want to stay in ketosis all the time for the motochondrial healing to occur, we probably shouldn't overdo the fat intake either.

I also took some potassium yesterday and today, and it seems to help.

Some nice effects I've noticed:

1) A totally pain-free period. I had never not had any cramps. This time, they lasted for 10 minutes one day, and that was that.
2) More and more cold adaptation. I enjoy the baths!
3) I cleaned my teeth really well with a dentist pick the first day of the diet, and 18 days after, I hardly have any plaque. When we transitioned to the low carb diet, my teeth used to get stained faster, and build up a lot of plaque. It is still a bit early to tell, but there seems to be some progress.
4) I think that my eyesight is getting better. I have myopia. It went down from 1.50 to 1.25 last year. Now I feel I have to have my eyes checked again. I went driving the other day and forgot to put my glasses on, and didn't realize for quite a while. It is far from being perfect, but there IS some change.

My 2 cents.
 
Re: Ketogenic Diet - Path To Transformation?

Ailén said:
Some nice effects I've noticed:

1) A totally pain-free period. I had never not had any cramps. This time, they lasted for 10 minutes one day, and that was that.
2) More and more cold adaptation. I enjoy the baths!
3) I cleaned my teeth really well with a dentist pick the first day of the diet, and 18 days after, I hardly have any plaque. When we transitioned to the low carb diet, my teeth used to get stained faster, and build up a lot of plaque. It is still a bit early to tell, but there seems to be some progress.
4) I think that my eyesight is getting better. I have myopia. It went down from 1.50 to 1.25 last year. Now I feel I have to have my eyes checked again. I went driving the other day and forgot to put my glasses on, and didn't realize for quite a while. It is far from being perfect, but there IS some change.

My 2 cents.

I used to have cramps in legs on the morning and sometimes during the night some weeks ago, and for this last month (I had starting with a light KD two weeks ago meaning the fasting day I had one light meal).
About plaque on teeth, I also can begin to see the difference as you explained it Ailén, and I think someone else talk about this in a previous post too. It looks be a real effect of KD. Wonderful thing actually.
And about eyes, I also noticed that I could see just a little better without my glasse (I also have got a little myopie), in particular when I take photos, what is a best even if I shall be capable of being able to confirm it possibly only in a week or two.

Your 2 cents look have more value than 2 cents Ailén. ;)
 
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