Ketogenic Diet - Powerful Dietary Strategy for Certain Conditions

[Carl]

Re: Ketogenic Diet - Path To Transformation?

Yes, I've been trying to make sense of all this, too. I've been looking for articles, videos, even books, that give simple step by step accounts of how cellular metabolism actually works. I managed to find a helpful series of videos that really cover the basics well. I think everyone unfamiliar with the nitty-gritty of cellular respiration should check out these videos. It will give a good primer for many of the atricles that have been posted in this thread so far.

The first vid is an overview and could probably be skipped if someone is short on time (although it is helpful), but the last three really get into the meat of it. You'll also notice that the vids come from a 'glucose bias', as it were, since glucose is commonly thought to be the main source of fuel for running the human organism. We know better though ;)

https://www.youtube.com/watch?feature=endscreen&v=2f7YwCtHcgk&NR=1
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=juM2ROSLWfw&feature=related
https://www.youtube.com/watch?feature=fvwp&NR=1&v=mfgCcFXUZRk
https://www.youtube.com/watch?feature=fvwp&NR=1&v=W_Q17tqw_7A

I wonder if this description of cellular respiration via glycolysis is very different from the description of how fats are broken down for energy?

I watched this documentary a while ago, which was really interesting, on the biochemistry of the paleo diet. I can't remember the exact details but I think it is relevant here, he uses easy to follow diagrams and clear explanation. He also talks a lot about resistance exercise and his weight training program, which may or may not be of use to people here.

He takes a while to get into it and talks about a lot of other stuff, much of it irrelevant so feel free to skip through a bit.

Edit: The bio chem actually begins at 1 hour 3 minutes, he basically starts with glucose but goes into why fat is better

 

[dugdeep]

Re: Ketogenic Diet - Path To Transformation?

Yes, I've been trying to make sense of all this, too. I've been looking for articles, videos, even books, that give simple step by step accounts of how cellular metabolism actually works. I managed to find a helpful series of videos that really cover the basics well. I think everyone unfamiliar with the nitty-gritty of cellular respiration should check out these videos. It will give a good primer for many of the atricles that have been posted in this thread so far.

The first vid is an overview and could probably be skipped if someone is short on time (although it is helpful), but the last three really get into the meat of it. You'll also notice that the vids come from a 'glucose bias', as it were, since glucose is commonly thought to be the main source of fuel for running the human organism. We know better though ;)

https://www.youtube.com/watch?feature=endscreen&v=2f7YwCtHcgk&NR=1
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=juM2ROSLWfw&feature=related
https://www.youtube.com/watch?feature=fvwp&NR=1&v=mfgCcFXUZRk
https://www.youtube.com/watch?feature=fvwp&NR=1&v=W_Q17tqw_7A

I wonder if this description of cellular respiration via glycolysis is very different from the description of how fats are broken down for energy?

Fats and proteins skip the glycolysis step and enter the Krebs Cycle more directly. At the 14 minute mark in the second video he makes a quick reference to how fats and proteins enter the Krebs Cycle by a conversion to Acetyl CoA but he doesn't go into detail about it. It looks like what happens with fats is that their carbon chains are broken down two carbons at a time to make Acetyl CoA molecules. This process is called beta oxidation. I'm going to see if I can find a good video that explains it.

Actually, looking at this link, it sounds like fats are converted to ketone bodies before being converted to Acetyl CoA. That would explain why running on ketones is more energy efficient - you're skipping a whole metabolic step!

Proteins are more complicated as the process is different depending on which amino acid you're talking about. Some amino acids are "glucogenic", which means they're converted to pyruvate and enter the glycolysis pathway to enter the Krebs Cycle or get converted to glycogen (remember how overeating protein converts it to sugar? I'm pretty sure this is how). Other amino acids are "ketogenic", which are converted to Acetyl CoA, or other Krebs Cycle intermediates, and enter the Krebs Cycle directly. Interestingly, the leftover stuff from ketogenic amino acids can be converted to ketone bodies or fats :)
See this link for more detail.

Hope that helps :)

 

[dugdeep]

Re: Ketogenic Diet - Path To Transformation?

The 4:1 ratio is measured in calories, not grams.

Fat is 9 calories per gram, protein is 4 calories per gram. So take the grams of protein per day, multiply it by 4 to get the total protein calories. Then times it by 4 again to get the total fat calories (4:1 ratio). Divide that by 9 to get total fat in grams.

Or, as Approaching Infinity pointed out earlier in the thread, take your protein grams and multiply it by 1.3 (much easier).

For God's sake! I've just drunk 150 grams of pork lard and 50 grams of butter for my breakfast today ;D (74kg*1,3=96; 96*4=384; 384/3=128; 128*2=256=150grams of lard + 50grams of butter + 56grams from food) 2/3 for breakfast at 5:30 and 1/3 for dinner at 17:30.

It makes the BIG difference now, thanks a lot!

I think your calculations might be a bit off there, Derek.

If you're 74kg, multiply that by 1.5 to get 111g/day (I see you did 1.3 instead, which is fine). Take that 111g/day of protein and multiply by 4 to get the calories of protein = 444 protein calories per day. Multiply that by 4 again to get fat calories per day = 1776 calories of fat per day. Now divide that by 9 to get grams of fat (since fat is 9 calories per gram rather than 4, as protein and carbs are). That = 197.33 grams of fat per day. Divide that by 2 meals are you're looking at approximately 100 grams of fat pre meal.

You can also do the easy way by taking 111g of protein per day and multiplying by 1.3 (although this is to get a 3:1 ratio of fat to protein rather than 4:1) = 144.3. This number would be closer to the above calculation if you were aiming for a 3:1 ratio instead of 4:1.

100g is a lot of fat for one sitting, so I'd consider doing something like butter/lard tea between meals, or try to add a third meal. Although, since you said you did 200g for breakfast this morning, maybe it's doable for you!

Hope that helps :)

 

[paralleloscope]

Re: Ketogenic Diet - Path To Transformation?

Fats and proteins skip the glycolysis step and enter the Krebs Cycle more directly. At the 14 minute mark in the second video he makes a quick reference to how fats and proteins enter the Krebs Cycle by a conversion to Acetyl CoA but he doesn't go into detail about it. It looks like what happens with fats is that their carbon chains are broken down two carbons at a time to make Acetyl CoA molecules. This process is called beta oxidation. I'm going to see if I can find a good video that explains it.

Here's a video on Beta Oxidation and fatty acid synthesis (he's no Khan and doesn't mention ketogenic acids in particular but may provide some working ideas). :
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=12XWXU8jhoE

The breakdown of fatty acids into acetyl-CoA is called Beta oxidation. In essentially the reverse of the B-oxidation pathway fatty acids are synthesized. The process of B-oxidation is not heavily regulated. Glycerol can be converted into glyceraldehyde-3-posphate and enter the gluconeogenisis pathway.

Thanks for the videos dugdeeep, they gave a good overview, massaging in the stuff already read on these processes. The whole thing is still kind of abstract, just needs a few more angles.

 

[Mrs. Peel]

Re: Ketogenic Diet - Path To Transformation?

Before I try the bone broth thing again, how many pounds (kilos?) of bones do you use and what is the ratio of water to pound of bones? I got into a discussion last night with my husband, he insists you have to have a "weight of bones to quantity of water" ratio or I won't get the gel-like consistency and I'll end up with beef flavored water like I got now. He was talking about the consistenty of consomme, and says I need like four pounds of bones to one quart of water. I said "people just put in the bones and cover them with water" but that wasn't accurate enough.

 

[Laura]

Re: Ketogenic Diet - Path To Transformation?

Before I try the bone broth thing again, how many pounds (kilos?) of bones do you use and what is the ratio of water to pound of bones? I got into a discussion last night with my husband, he insists you have to have a "weight of bones to quantity of water" ratio or I won't get the gel-like consistency and I'll end up with beef flavored water like I got now. He was talking about the consistenty of consomme, and says I need like four pounds of bones to one quart of water. I said "people just put in the bones and cover them with water" but that wasn't accurate enough.

Well, you don't have to have "weight to water", you just pack them in the pot and cover them with water, maybe a few inches over the top of the bones. If the bones are cut up, this is easier to do, of course. The consistency comes from the long cooking time which can be shortened in a pressure cooker to about 3 hours. In a pot or crockpot, overnight or nearly all day at the very least. Hopefully, the bones have some bits of meat and good gristle on them because this latter is what turns to gelatin along with the marrow.

 

[Mrs. Peel]

Re: Ketogenic Diet - Path To Transformation?

[Well, you don't have to have "weight to water", you just pack them in the pot and cover them with water, maybe a few inches over the top of the bones. If the bones are cut up, this is easier to do, of course. The consistency comes from the long cooking time which can be shortened in a pressure cooker to about 3 hours. In a pot or crockpot, overnight or nearly all day at the very least. Hopefully, the bones have some bits of meat and good gristle on them because this latter is what turns to gelatin along with the marrow.

Ok, so by "packing the pot" do you mean fill the entire pot up to the top, or halfway, or three quarters with bones? My anal husband needs specifics. Sheesh.

 

[paralleloscope]

Re: Ketogenic Diet - Path To Transformation?

Made my first bone broth yesterday, tasted all right warm (could use a bit of seasoning) but got a bit nauseous from it later (may just have to adapt). Today, after having been refrigerated in 2 containers over night. One is all gelatinous mass the other one with the most marrow fat in it is more like icecream. I poured som boiled water on the icecream variant and it's drinkable but shudder by the thought of having to do this to the gelatinous one. Is this the normal refrigerated consistency?

 

[truth seeker]

Re: Ketogenic Diet - Path To Transformation?

Made my first bone broth yesterday, tasted all right warm (could use a bit of seasoning) but got a bit nauseous from it later (may just have to adapt). Today, after having been refrigerated in 2 containers over night. One is all gelatinous mass the other one with the most marrow fat in it is more like icecream. I poured som boiled water on the icecream variant and it's drinkable but shudder by the thought of having to do this to the gelatinous one. Is this the normal refrigerated consistency?

Perhaps I'm misunderstanding so apologies if I am but aren't you heating up the broth itself before eating it? If you take out a portion of the gelatinous one and heat it, it should return to it's original consistency. The same should apply to the 'ice cream' one. You may also want to add salt to the broth to taste. If you do this after it's initial cooking, you just have to heat a portion and drink. Hopefully that makes sense.

 

[liffy]

Re: Ketogenic Diet - Path To Transformation?

[Well, you don't have to have "weight to water", you just pack them in the pot and cover them with water, maybe a few inches over the top of the bones. If the bones are cut up, this is easier to do, of course. The consistency comes from the long cooking time which can be shortened in a pressure cooker to about 3 hours. In a pot or crockpot, overnight or nearly all day at the very least. Hopefully, the bones have some bits of meat and good gristle on them because this latter is what turns to gelatin along with the marrow.

Ok, so by "packing the pot" do you mean fill the entire pot up to the top, or halfway, or three quarters with bones? My anal husband needs specifics. Sheesh.

That would depend on how much broth you intend to make?

 

[paralleloscope]

Re: Ketogenic Diet - Path To Transformation?

Made my first bone broth yesterday, tasted all right warm (could use a bit of seasoning) but got a bit nauseous from it later (may just have to adapt). Today, after having been refrigerated in 2 containers over night. One is all gelatinous mass the other one with the most marrow fat in it is more like icecream. I poured som boiled water on the icecream variant and it's drinkable but shudder by the thought of having to do this to the gelatinous one. Is this the normal refrigerated consistency?

Perhaps I'm misunderstanding so apologies if I am but aren't you heating up the broth itself before eating it? If you take out a portion of the gelatinous one and heat it, it should return to it's original consistency. The same shouls apply to the 'ice cream' one. You may also want to add salt to the broth to taste. If you do this after it's initial cooking, you just have to heat a portion and drink. Hopefully that makes sense.

I see, was under the impression that it was a cold drink. I added too much salt in this batch and had no pepper, but will try to add some to the next warm up (without added water) maybe even add a bit of garlic powder.

 

[mcb]

Re: Ketogenic Diet - Path To Transformation?

Yes, I've been trying to make sense of all this, too. I've been looking for articles, videos, even books, that give simple step by step accounts of how cellular metabolism actually works. I managed to find a helpful series of videos that really cover the basics well. I think everyone unfamiliar with the nitty-gritty of cellular respiration should check out these videos. It will give a good primer for many of the atricles that have been posted in this thread so far.

The first vid is an overview and could probably be skipped if someone is short on time (although it is helpful), but the last three really get into the meat of it. You'll also notice that the vids come from a 'glucose bias', as it were, since glucose is commonly thought to be the main source of fuel for running the human organism. We know better though ;)

https://www.youtube.com/watch?feature=endscreen&v=2f7YwCtHcgk&NR=1
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=juM2ROSLWfw&feature=related
https://www.youtube.com/watch?feature=fvwp&NR=1&v=mfgCcFXUZRk
https://www.youtube.com/watch?feature=fvwp&NR=1&v=W_Q17tqw_7A

I wonder if this description of cellular respiration via glycolysis is very different from the description of how fats are broken down for energy?

Yes it is very different. The best source of information I have seen so far is the Mitochondrial Energetics paper for which Laura provided a link earlier, but it is not very readable for most people. It provides a cursory overview of OXPHOS, and needs to be supplemented with other materials if you don't have the background, but it does examine fat (FFA/ketone) metabolism in the context of ketogenic diet (at the end of the paper). I'm to the point where that part of the paper is starting to make quite a bit of sense, but it's an ongoing learning process. I am not there yet with the middle part of the paper dealing with epigenetics, etc. -- working on it!

The links above are a good introduction to glucose metabolism. I watched the first and fourth ones. I did not encounter any new information, but it helped confirm and reenforce what I had already learned elsewhere. I may have missed something from the middle two, but I did not see anything about fat metabolism.

An important difference between glucose and fat metabolism is that glycolysis occurs in the cytoplasm while fat is metabolized within the outer membrane of the mitochondria. The end result is similar, providing the precursors needed by the electron transport chain (if sufficient O2 is available), but glycolysis and its subsequent processes emit byproducts to the cytoplasm (that could well be an issue). Mitochondrial Energetics goes into detail about this. Right now I am out of time, but this makes a fascinating study.

 

[truth seeker]

Re: Ketogenic Diet - Path To Transformation?

Perhaps I'm misunderstanding so apologies if I am but aren't you heating up the broth itself before eating it? If you take out a portion of the gelatinous one and heat it, it should return to it's original consistency. The same shouls apply to the 'ice cream' one. You may also want to add salt to the broth to taste. If you do this after it's initial cooking, you just have to heat a portion and drink. Hopefully that makes sense.

I see, was under the impression that it was a cold drink. I added too much salt in this batch and had no pepper, but will try to add some to the next warm up (without added water) maybe even add a bit of garlic powder.

Oh no, it's soup - you heat it up and drink it warm/hot.

I've never heard of one that looks like ice cream though. It sounds as if it's mainly fat. You may want to try combining them for what it's worth.

Also, the consistency of the gelatin can vary depending upon how much water is in the broth. The last one I made is quite thick meaning that there's no jiggle to it like jello. In those cases, you might want to add more water although when heated, it also returns to it's original state. Also since you find this batch too salty, add a bit more water to each portion and see how it goes.

Feel free to play around with the amounts a bit. After a while, you'll have a good idea as to what it should look like.

 

[dugdeep]

Re: Ketogenic Diet - Path To Transformation?

Fats and proteins skip the glycolysis step and enter the Krebs Cycle more directly. At the 14 minute mark in the second video he makes a quick reference to how fats and proteins enter the Krebs Cycle by a conversion to Acetyl CoA but he doesn't go into detail about it. It looks like what happens with fats is that their carbon chains are broken down two carbons at a time to make Acetyl CoA molecules. This process is called beta oxidation. I'm going to see if I can find a good video that explains it.

Here's a video on Beta Oxidation and fatty acid synthesis (he's no Khan and doesn't mention ketogenic acids in particular but may provide some working ideas). :
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=12XWXU8jhoE

The breakdown of fatty acids into acetyl-CoA is called Beta oxidation. In essentially the reverse of the B-oxidation pathway fatty acids are synthesized. The process of B-oxidation is not heavily regulated. Glycerol can be converted into glyceraldehyde-3-posphate and enter the gluconeogenisis pathway.

Thanks for the videos dugdeeep, they gave a good overview, massaging in the stuff already read on these processes. The whole thing is still kind of abstract, just needs a few more angles.

I've been looking for a good video on beta oxidation all morning and so far haven't found much. I found the one you posted, parallel but got kind of frustrated halfway through because he kept on pausing mid-sentence, LOL. I feel like he should have practiced first. I'm going to give it another watch when I get home from work.

Here's another one; again, not great, but it gets the basics of beta-oxidation across (Muxel, you will hate this video ;)).

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=L4gVL7oNo8o

Yes it is very different. The best source of information I have seen so far is the Mitochondrial Energetics paper for which Laura provided a link earlier, but it is not very readable for most people. It provides a cursory overview of OXPHOS, and needs to be supplemented with other materials if you don't have the background, but it does examine fat (FFA/ketone) metabolism in the context of ketogenic diet (at the end of the paper). I'm to the point where that part of the paper is starting to make quite a bit of sense, but it's an ongoing learning process. I am not there yet with the middle part of the paper dealing with epigenetics, etc. -- working on it!

I'm trying to get to the point where I understand what they're talking about in the "Mitochondrial Energetics" paper before I dig into it. Some of it's refresher, but the paper goes into detail I wasn't prevoiusly familiar with. I think I'm pretty much there now :)

 

[MK Scarlett]

Re: Ketogenic Diet - Path To Transformation?

If you're 74kg, multiply that by 1.5 to get 111g/day (I see you did 1.3 instead, which is fine). Take that 111g/day of protein and multiply by 4 to get the calories of protein = 444 protein calories per day. Multiply that by 4 again to get fat calories per day = 1776 calories of fat per day. Now divide that by 9 to get grams of fat (since fat is 9 calories per gram rather than 4, as protein and carbs are). That = 197.33 grams of fat per day. Divide that by 2 meals are you're looking at approximately 100 grams of fat pre meal.

You can also do the easy way by taking 111g of protein per day and multiplying by 1.3 (although this is to get a 3:1 ratio of fat to protein rather than 4:1) = 144.3. This number would be closer to the above calculation if you were aiming for a 3:1 ratio instead of 4:1.

100g is a lot of fat for one sitting, so I'd consider doing something like butter/lard tea between meals, or try to add a third meal. Although, since you said you did 200g for breakfast this morning, maybe it's doable for you!

Hope that helps :)

Thank you dugdeep for this very usefull calculation!

https://www.youtube.com/watch?feature=endscreen&v=2f7YwCtHcgk&NR=1
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=juM2ROSLWfw&feature=related
https://www.youtube.com/watch?feature=fvwp&NR=1&v=mfgCcFXUZRk
https://www.youtube.com/watch?feature=fvwp&NR=1&v=W_Q17tqw_7A

And also for these links, that I am discovering. ;)