Ketogenic Diet - Powerful Dietary Strategy for Certain Conditions

[dugdeep]

Re: Ketogenic Diet - Path To Transformation?

I managed to find a helpful series of videos that really cover the basics well.

Salman Khan drawing on MS Paint? I can top that. :D
Here are good biology animated tutorials: http://nhscience.lonestar.edu/biol/bio1int.htm
Especially the ones from McGraw-Hill: http://highered.mcgraw-hill.com/sites/dl/free/0072437316/120060/ravenanimation.html

Example 1 ETC
Example 2 OXPHOS

Those are some nice animations, Muxel. They definitely give a good perspective on what's going on in a couple of the steps. But I still think the videos I posted, although not nearly as pretty, give a much better overview of the entire process. I personally need to look at something from a macro perspective before getting down to the finer details. I thought the narrator in those original videos had a very patient and thorough way of explaining the process that I found very helpful. Others may not.

 

[dugdeep]

Re: Ketogenic Diet - Path To Transformation?

I guess I am a bit confused...

Let's say it is calculated X = 1.5g/kg * weight in kg,
one needs Xg of protein per day.

Using the 4:1 fat/protein ratio, does this mean I
need to consume 4*Xg of fat and Xg of protein
per day?

The 4:1 ratio is measured in calories, not grams.

Fat is 9 calories per gram, protein is 4 calories per gram. So take the grams of protein per day, multiply it by 4 to get the total protein calories. Then times it by 4 again to get the total fat calories (4:1 ratio). Divide that by 9 to get total fat in grams.

Or, as Approaching Infinity pointed out earlier in the thread, take your protein grams and multiply it by 1.3 (much easier).

 

[dant]

Re: Ketogenic Diet - Path To Transformation?


Thank you, DugDeep!
Now I can get started on the Ketosis Diet!

 

[Darek]

Re: Ketogenic Diet - Path To Transformation?

The 4:1 ratio is measured in calories, not grams.

Fat is 9 calories per gram, protein is 4 calories per gram. So take the grams of protein per day, multiply it by 4 to get the total protein calories. Then times it by 4 again to get the total fat calories (4:1 ratio). Divide that by 9 to get total fat in grams.

Or, as Approaching Infinity pointed out earlier in the thread, take your protein grams and multiply it by 1.3 (much easier).

For God's sake! I've just drunk 150 grams of pork lard and 50 grams of butter for my breakfast today ;D (74kg*1,3=96; 96*4=384; 384/3=128; 128*2=256=150grams of lard + 50grams of butter + 56grams from food) 2/3 for breakfast at 5:30 and 1/3 for dinner at 17:30.

It makes the BIG difference now, thanks a lot!

 

[Laura]

Re: Ketogenic Diet - Path To Transformation?

After reading the thread I decided to try this myself, starting tomorrow.

There is a "bone pot" cooking right now, which will be ready by morning.

I also added in a handful of pot herbs, consisting of dandelion greens, plantain leaf and some violet leaf, these will be strained out later though.

My thinking is that this will add more vitamins and minerals and would have probably been done that way, originally. Maybe avoid the cramping issue?

Don't know why you think that any "greens" would add more "vitamins and minerals" since the brainwashing about such things have much to speak of in comparison to meat is just that: propaganda. I think there's a link to a table giving these values in an earlier part of the thread. Also, the greens are way more likely to produce cramping than anything else.

 

[aragorn]

Re: Ketogenic Diet - Path To Transformation?

I've been looking into cheap ways to buy ingredients for bone broth, and the cheapest approach, at least where I live, would be to buy pork bones and stuff from animal food stores.

I feel a little silly asking this, but has someone tried making bone broth from "pet food"? I can't immediately come up with any dangers of doing this, since the products are deep frozen. I guess the question really is, are the meats and bones that go into packages for dogs etc. from a bad source - e.g. sick and hormone pumped animals etc.?

 

[Meager1]

Re: Ketogenic Diet - Path To Transformation?

Ok, thanks Laura.
I`ll skip the greens next time.

By the way, the pot is done and there appears to be about an inch of oil floating on top but very little of the scum other people have mentioned. I`m wondering if I should add in the suet, or leave it alone for now?
It really doesn`t smell or look very appetizing though!

 

[MK Scarlett]

Re: Ketogenic Diet - Path To Transformation?

Report on "normal eating" on yesterday with a breakfast with lard and fat duck, and some blueberries, a light lunch with a bone broth and dinner with a bone broth and a piece of lard with lard oil.

I was pretty tired on the afternoon, with heavy legs and sensation of "hot brain" and a pain between my left shoulder and my nape of the neck. I was not really able to make 35mn of exercices and took some Vit.C after the meal on the evening and went to bed early than usual and was sleeping at 11.00pm. My weight was of 47.0kg on yesterday evening, and the same this morning and temperature this morning was 36.4°C. I also continue magnesium and potassium which look help. No pain waking-up this morning, so I decided to take Vit.C (evening) during the day I eat and not at all during the fast day. Let's see how this second fast day will be...

 

[Ollie]

Re: Ketogenic Diet - Path To Transformation?

A technical question: I discovered that also my main fat source contains carbs. Or it is a general thing that butter has about 0.5-0.7 carbs per 100g. Should I look for the time for another source? Or is it already low enough eating about 1.4gr carbs a day? My ketones are tonight at about 4,6mmol/l for the first day without carbs (beside the butter) and my legs are pretty weak.

Just looked at the organic goat's butter that I use, and that is 5g carbs per 100g. So, it may be that it is a general thing. Your 1.4g carbs a day should be fine. :) That's close enough to zero.

...
... I cut eggs just in case (I did like eggs, though...), but will perhaps test reintroducing them at a later time and see how they work for me after everything else gets stable (there are chickens where I live, so lots of eggs).

... and also consuming some of the liquid from a pork roast I made in a crock pot that was bone-in--the liquid being quite gelatinous and, I think, being a bit of a bone broth (though not what I would consider to be "full strength").
...

If you want to have eggs, albeit in small quantity, you may like to make home-made mayonnaise - see earlier or do a search for Laura's recipe, which also includes another source of fat - grapeseed oil. :)

The bone broth was, in my opinion, "full strength", and the 'gelatinous-ness' is very nourishing too. :)

 

[Nathan]

Re: Ketogenic Diet - Path To Transformation?

Just caught up on this thread last night. I'm quite relieved that this isn't much of a shift from my existing diet! And this seems to be going in the natural direction of quite a few members here, which is interesting in itself. I started resistance training yesterday, coincidentally based on Nora's recommendations, so I'm VERY happy to see that's what everyone is undertaking here. I'm using dumbbells though, as they're cheap to get hold of.

Just to clarify, how much lighter is everyone eating on their alternate days? I'm guessing you're not trying to hit your protein and fat quota on the alternate days because I'm struggling to meet them on my "on" days!

One thing I've been trying to get my head around is the fitness and bodybuilding community's nutrition and diet beliefs, which revolve around protein shakes and carbs as energy. There are a few ketogenic fitness gurus and bodybuilders out there, but they still suggest carb loading before and after workouts. *facepalm* And they throw in things like fruit, salad, cheese and milk and still recommend protein shakes. They simply cannot comprehend that this can be done without carbohydrates. And to be fair, given all the info in this thread so far, it seems there are many wrong turns you can make when undertaking a ketogenic diet. Not getting enough fat seems to be the big one.

So at this point I'm just timing my exercise so that I eat natural protein (meat) afterwards.

After reading this thread, I've decided to look at my current diet and see what I need to change. As a thin young guy, I currently weigh 70kg, which is 10kg under my former weight back in the day when I used to attend a gym and drink evil whey protein shakes.

My current daily intake:
70g protein <--this needs to be 90g
90g fat <--this needs to be 120g
30g carbs <---this could easily be 0g

As you can see, the big thing that needs to change is upping the fat intake. As most fatty meats seem to have an equal measure of fat and protein, you're not going to get anywhere by loading up on more fatty meat, whether it be steak, eggs or bacon. You'll just end up overdoing the protein as well. So that's where bone broth comes in. OK, cool. *buys bones for broth*

Looking at my existing meals (below), I eat 2 meals per day because I don't get hungry until dinner time.

Breakfast:
3x eggs: 20g protein, 20g fat
3x bacon (70g): 18g protein, 20g fat

I've also noticed that the more expensive the cut of meat, the higher the fat content. Which is annoying. But buying from markets tends to lower the price anyway. I'm able to get grass-fed T-bone steaks from the market at less than half the price of grain-fed T-bone steaks in the supermarket. You'd have to be an idiot to buy all your meat from the supermarket!

[/quote]Dinner:
300g grass-fed T-bone steak: 30g protein, 30g fat
2x carrots: 10g carbs
250g pumpkin: 12g carbs[/quote]

I checked the carb content on various vegetables using this:
_http://nutritiondata.self.com/facts/vegetables-and-vegetable-products/2668/2

Comparison of veggies:
100g potato - 46g carbs
100g sweet potato - 18g carbs
100g broccoli - 20g carbs
100g carrots - 8g carbs
100g pumpkin - 12g carbs

You only need half a cup of potatoes to blow yourself over 60g carbs. That's crazy! Vegetables are more trouble than they're worth.

Question: Can we get a reasonable amount of fat from a couple of bowls of bone broth per day? I hope so. :P

My plan of action is to:
(a) drop the veggies completely
(b) increase my protein a bit
(c) throw in a couple of bowls of broth to get my fat intake up over my protein (and satiate any hunger)

Am I on track with all of this?

 

[Gawan]

Re: Ketogenic Diet - Path To Transformation?

Just one point about the butter. May I ask if there is a reason you're having butter as your main fat source instead of rendered lard or tallow or maybe even rendered veal fat? I've noticed that even though I can tolerate butter, it is not as near as energizing as rendered animal fat. Which is also why I decided at some point not to eat butter anymore. Maybe, if you want, you can check out your sources and render some fat yourself and experiment on that a little?

Somehow it is the only fat I can eat/drink in huge quantities, when I think only about other fat my stomach starts to turn a bit. But I don't know why. And this is at least something I can afford and is organic (at least the label says it).

Also if you're feeling you're going really low-carb too fast, you could perhaps lower the amount of carbs a bit more slowly? I'm not sure though how much carbs you ate before you went near 0 carbs. Here is what someone wrote here as a comment that may be helpful:

I think the reason the ADA wants diabetics to cut down on carbs gradually is that it can be very dangerous if their diabetic meds (especially insulin) are not adjusted correctly to match the new carb intake.

Even an experienced endocrinologist can’t really know how any given person’s insulin needs will decrease when their carb intake lowers dramatically.

Instead of complicating their instructions, they just apply this to all diabetics. But for people taking NO diabetic meds or only Metformin, there should be no need to decrease carbs slowly.

Almost every other oral med causes a forced increase in insulin levels NOT related to blood sugar, so hypoglycemia can easily result.

It's not that big jump, but it is a change, from about 20grs to ~2.0 grs for a whole day. On the other hand at the moment the blood-sugar goes perfect, after several weeks making lots of problems and adjusting it to very low insulin for a day again. And I'm keeping a close watch on what I'm doing.

Just looked at the organic goat's butter that I use, and that is 5g carbs per 100g. So, it may be that it is a general thing. Your 1.4g carbs a day should be fine. :) That's close enough to zero.

:)

 

[Carl]

Re: Ketogenic Diet - Path To Transformation?

Just to clarify, how much lighter is everyone eating on their alternate days? I'm guessing you're not trying to hit your protein and fat quota on the alternate days because I'm struggling to meet them on my "on" days!

One thing I've been trying to get my head around is the fitness and bodybuilding community's nutrition and diet beliefs, which revolve around protein shakes and carbs as energy. There are a few ketogenic fitness gurus and bodybuilders out there, but they still suggest carb loading before and after workouts. *facepalm* And they throw in things like fruit, salad, cheese and milk and still recommend protein shakes. They simply cannot comprehend that this can be done without carbohydrates. And to be fair, given all the info in this thread so far, it seems there are many wrong turns you can make when undertaking a ketogenic diet. Not getting enough fat seems to be the big one.

So at this point I'm just timing my exercise so that I eat natural protein (meat) afterwards.

After reading this thread, I've decided to look at my current diet and see what I need to change. As a thin young guy, I currently weigh 70kg, which is 10kg under my former weight back in the day when I used to attend a gym and drink evil whey protein shakes.

I don't restrict fat so much on my fast days, but reduce protein quite considerably. It has got to the point now where I usually don't eat after 2-3pm, so that gives me about 15 hours fasting every day anyway.

I wouldn't try to derive any knowledge from the bodybuilding community anymore. They are focused on getting the muscles as big as possible, while reducing the amount of fat. Even the ones who don't use steroids or fat burners have a tremendously unhealthy diet (from our more objective perspective) of protein shakes, tonnes of carbs, creatine etc in order to get that lean 'ripped' look. I don't think it's possible to look like that on the ketogenic diet, and we will have more of a 'hunter gatherer' type body, which looks more modest but is strong, durable, and healthy.

Question: Can we get a reasonable amount of fat from a couple of bowls of bone broth per day? I hope so. :P

My plan of action is to:
(a) drop the veggies completely
(b) increase my protein a bit
(c) throw in a couple of bowls of broth to get my fat intake up over my protein (and satiate any hunger)

Am I on track with all of this?

Yes, the bone broth seems to be key. Try to get hold of some pork or beef fat, chop up and render it, and add some of that to your broths for extra fat. Certainly drop veggies like carrots and pumpkin. I have a handful of green beans with my breakfast, fried in fat. This is mainly just to get extra fat in, plus they taste delicious fried. I'm not sure if even this is necessary, and might try just removing veg altogether.



Also eating grass fed beef steaks is not the most economical way of doing this diet, and is usually too lean anyway. I would suggest fatty pork instead for the actual meat. Usually the cheaper cuts are fattier. So far I've found fried belly pork is great, as well as pigs feet boiled into a broth. I Just strain out the meat and bones after boiling, and there I have some very fatty meat as well as a substantial broth, all for about £2 or so.

 

[Joe]

Re: Ketogenic Diet - Path To Transformation?

My plan of action is to:
(a) drop the veggies completely
(b) increase my protein a bit
(c) throw in a couple of bowls of broth to get my fat intake up over my protein (and satiate any hunger)

Am I on track with all of this?

Sounds about right. You're daily food intake could look like this:

morning:

4-5 slices of bacon, a pork burger with plenty of fat in it and fried in fat, a couple of egg yolks (cooked)

Lunch:

a pork chop with as much fat on it as possible, ideally 50%, plus a bowl of bone broth

Evening:

Same as lunch if desired (or other animal product with comparable protein to fat ratio) with another bowl of broth.

This could be to start out, and, as you progress, you could try decreasing the protein amounts and increasing fat amounts until you are satisfied.

 

[Joe]

Re: Ketogenic Diet - Path To Transformation?

Yes, I've been trying to make sense of all this, too. I've been looking for articles, videos, even books, that give simple step by step accounts of how cellular metabolism actually works. I managed to find a helpful series of videos that really cover the basics well. I think everyone unfamiliar with the nitty-gritty of cellular respiration should check out these videos. It will give a good primer for many of the atricles that have been posted in this thread so far.

The first vid is an overview and could probably be skipped if someone is short on time (although it is helpful), but the last three really get into the meat of it. You'll also notice that the vids come from a 'glucose bias', as it were, since glucose is commonly thought to be the main source of fuel for running the human organism. We know better though ;)

https://www.youtube.com/watch?feature=endscreen&v=2f7YwCtHcgk&NR=1
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=juM2ROSLWfw&feature=related
https://www.youtube.com/watch?feature=fvwp&NR=1&v=mfgCcFXUZRk
https://www.youtube.com/watch?feature=fvwp&NR=1&v=W_Q17tqw_7A

I wonder if this description of cellular respiration via glycolysis is very different from the description of how fats are broken down for energy?

 

[Nathan]

Re: Ketogenic Diet - Path To Transformation?

Thanks Perceval and Carlise!

The take-home message from this appears to be: pork is a more suited meat for this higher fat ratio! I always opted for beef because of its higher protein content, but now the game has changed. I checked out the nutrition data on pork.

Pork chop (probably lean) 100g:
fat 25g
protein 25g

But like you said, Perceval, going for the fattiest available pork chops will have a higher yield of fat.

Pork sausage (probably pork burger too) 100g:
fat 28g
protein 19g

400g of pork sausage or burger would give someone my weight (70kg) their fill of protein and fat for an entire day! That's only x3 pork chops or x3 pork burgers (at 140g/6oz each).

It's pretty amazing to think that this is all we need to fuel our bodies at an optimum level. And that's on a full day.

I don't think it's possible to look like that on the ketogenic diet, and we will have more of a 'hunter gatherer' type body, which looks more modest but is strong, durable, and healthy.

Give me the lean hunter/gatherer body over a bodybuilder or gym junkie any day! Excessive muscle would probably be counter-productive for a paleolithic human. It would impair movement, speed and flexibility. You'd never be able to spear that T-Rex! I mean, bison.