Ketogenic Diet - Powerful Dietary Strategy for Certain Conditions

[Jones]

Re: Ketogenic Diet - Path To Transformation?

I've been looking into cheap ways to buy ingredients for bone broth, and the cheapest approach, at least where I live, would be to buy pork bones and stuff from animal food stores.

I feel a little silly asking this, but has someone tried making bone broth from "pet food"? I can't immediately come up with any dangers of doing this, since the products are deep frozen. I guess the question really is, are the meats and bones that go into packages for dogs etc. from a bad source - e.g. sick and hormone pumped animals etc.?

I'd be careful if they are labelled as pet food, pet food only or not for human consumption. But then only honest retailers would label them as such I guess. Often pet food retailers sell the meat that is not fit for human consumption because the source is 4 D meat (from dead, dying, diseased or disabled animals). Often the treatments for diseases for sick animals, or treatments used for general husbandry practices, for example parasite control have withholding periods during which the animal cannot be sold for human consumption. The withholding period reflects the time it would take for anything toxic in the system from the treatment to leave the body. However the same controls are not in place for animals that are sold to pet food companies and this includes fresh meat/bone sources. For that reason I don't even feed my dogs anything from these sources. I only ever use butchers where all the meat, offcuts, bones and offal are from animals that have been approved for human consumption.

 

[Gimpy]

Re: Ketogenic Diet - Path To Transformation?

Third day having bone broth for breakfast/brunch. Still get the sleepies afterwards, but going ahead and sleeping is making me feel better, so I've been doing that.

This morning I woke with Pink Eye in the left eye.

Because of the MS flare up, I went ahead and emailed my GP in case the eye has to be checked out. It can be a different beastie than the usual after a prednisone course. Meantime I took a benadryl for the redness and it helped a little. The eye hurts, feels too big for the socket, and in general is making me feel grumpy.

The irritation brought on by "Forest Funk" of last week is clearing up, which makes me wonder if all this is just allergies. With all the GM corn rotting in the fields around our house, it would make sense.

I'm not getting the long bone pain mentioned, I think that's because I'm still eating veggies with one meal in the evening. Reducing those slowly keeps my bowels from doing bad things.

 

[Mrs. Peel]

Re: Ketogenic Diet - Path To Transformation?

[That would depend on how much broth you intend to make?

I have about a five quart soup pot and a six quart crockpot. The largest amount of broth I can get out of either of them.

 

[Tomek]

Re: Ketogenic Diet - Path To Transformation?

Are we supposed to count the bone broth in our 4:1 ratio, and if that's the case, how ?

 

[Laura]

Re: Ketogenic Diet - Path To Transformation?

[Well, you don't have to have "weight to water", you just pack them in the pot and cover them with water, maybe a few inches over the top of the bones. If the bones are cut up, this is easier to do, of course. The consistency comes from the long cooking time which can be shortened in a pressure cooker to about 3 hours. In a pot or crockpot, overnight or nearly all day at the very least. Hopefully, the bones have some bits of meat and good gristle on them because this latter is what turns to gelatin along with the marrow.

Ok, so by "packing the pot" do you mean fill the entire pot up to the top, or halfway, or three quarters with bones? My anal husband needs specifics. Sheesh.

As noted, it depends on how much you want to make. How about just filling the pot half-full, put 3/4 full water, some salt and pepper, and turn it on and let it cook? You'll then see how much that makes after you remove the bones. If it is too condensed, add a bit of water until it is as you like it. Next time, you can make more or less or use a larger or smaller pot.

Tell your husband this is NOT rocket science!

 

[Laura]

Re: Ketogenic Diet - Path To Transformation?

Are we supposed to count the bone broth in our 4:1 ratio, and if that's the case, how ?

The bone broth is an excellent way to get fat in with only an insignificant amount of protein. So it will count for your fat portion of the ratio.

 

[Chu]

Re: Ketogenic Diet - Path To Transformation?

One thing I've been trying to get my head around is the fitness and bodybuilding community's nutrition and diet beliefs, which revolve around protein shakes and carbs as energy. There are a few ketogenic fitness gurus and bodybuilders out there, but they still suggest carb loading before and after workouts. *facepalm* And they throw in things like fruit, salad, cheese and milk and still recommend protein shakes. They simply cannot comprehend that this can be done without carbohydrates. And to be fair, given all the info in this thread so far, it seems there are many wrong turns you can make when undertaking a ketogenic diet. Not getting enough fat seems to be the big one.

If you read those papers linked to at the beginning of this thread, you'll see that there is actually no scientific evidence for what those "gurus" claim. In fact, it's BS and can be dangerous, because it does all the opposite to healing the body. In some studies, they noticed that resistance only decreased for a short while, but that basically, after adaptation to the ketogenic diet, the performance was the same, if not better. There are some studies about cyclists and other athletes, and they are SO biased that they aren't even worth posting here. But you can look it up. Basically, they do either total fasting, or very short adaptation to the KD (e.g. one week KD, one week carbs), so the whole thing really stinks.

 

[HifromGrace]

Re: Ketogenic Diet - Path To Transformation?

I love all this broth talk!

I wanted to add my experience with broth making. Personally, I find that I don’t like the flavor unless it’s been cooked for two days (leaving a window wide open to suck out the scents, and making sure the closet doors are shut so it doesn’t get into the cloths, fwiw!). After two days the joints are well on their way to being disintegrated, as is the marrow (see the links at end for references about their nutritional value).

If I only have chicken bones for the batch (we just chuck em in the freezer after each meal to accumulate for a future broth), I find that I rarely get gelatin. Donno why, it still puzzles me. But you only need to cook it for one day for a rich broth with chicken. Also, when we’re up for it (by “we” I mean my husband, LOL!) we crack all the bones on half with a hammer – it makes a good game with the 5 yr old, he gets to scurry around for all the pieces that get flung out! Cracking them gets to the marrow. We just plunk out pieces as it’s cooking when we want to suck some marrow out to eat, but otherwise, I just wait a day and it’s all come out into the broth by then. I don't strain it when it's done, so you get the random nutritional chunks - I only pick out the bones.

In lue of veggies, one can experiment with putting in mint or herb leaves, and/or herb seeds. Last week I was randomly putting bones in the pot (we just buy soup bones when they’re on sale and put them in the deep freezer along with the bones from meals. We also buy containers of chicken livers and just plop a whole container in with the broth for added nutrition.) and I put in this light colored “stuff.” As it turns out it was leftover grilled salmon.

I’m an adventurous type with cooking and didn’t bother picking it out of the pot, just to see what flavors it would add. Well it sure did add “flavor,” wowsers. Not my cup of tea, but it brought my husband back to the good old days with grandma! So in attempts to modify the taste (and smell!) I started putting in some seeds I had laying around from pickling such as fennel, anise, dill, etc. It worked like a charm, really rounded out the flavors veryyyy pleasantly! So I recommend that (if it doesn’t cause inflammation in your bod).

The fresh herb thing (with the above inflammation disclaimer) really livens it up too! Fresh mint, basil, dill, oregano, thyme, etc. To put it in context, I’ve been on a massive broth kick for a month now, a fresh batch weekly. I’m working on repairing my gut wall (see articles below also). So I’ve really need to mix it up taste-wise, so I’m not bored with it. I have some for breakfast and then put the rest of the heated batch into a thermos for my work day. It’s a great filler between meals, and nutritionally it’s the tops for joint, skin and bone/tooth health. I just find this following tidbit fascinating and others may find it pertinent with their work on carb free diets:

“Gelatin was universally acclaimed as a most nutritious foodstuff particularly by the French, who were seeking ways to feed their armies and vast numbers of homeless in Paris and other cities. Although gelatin is not a complete protein, containing only the amino acids arginine and glycine in large amounts, it acts as a protein sparer, helping the poor stretch a few morsels of meat into a complete meal.”
Exerpt from a Sally Fallon article from the Weston Price Foundation, "Broth is Beautiful" from http://www.westonaprice.org/food-features/broth-is-beautiful

Another super broth article is: http://www.westonaprice.org/food-features/why-broth-is-beautiful


A last random broth tip, off topic on the carb-free, but could be of use for others.

Freeze the left over broth in ice cube trays (before it goes bad or when you’re sick of it) and keep em in a big bag in the freezer (not in the trays, they don't come out as easy as regular ice, then it becomes a deturrent to actually using them). I’m constantly chucking these cubes into my food as I’m making it fresh or re-heating it for added moisture to meat & side dishes. It’s a fantastic way to sneak in extra nutrition for the family too, they never notice it, and it makes a great sauce with a pat of fat and dash of salt!

One last random parenting feeding tip (I admit, it's kinda weird to do) I put in the broth ice cubes into my kid's summer drinks, if they don't have much fat (add salt for electrolites too) - I lie and tell him it's raspberry flavored ice (since it's usually beet colored).

Added nutrition and he's used to the taste, so it's no biggie. Plus it doesn't look weird to his friends. Heck, I've even made chocolate milk with the cubes (& a pat of fat & dash of salt) back in the day when we used to do dairy - it ends up being rather delicious, like melted icecream, fwiw to families that are tranistioning diets.

 

[Mrs. Peel]

Re: Ketogenic Diet - Path To Transformation?

Tell your husband this is NOT rocket science!

Heh, heh. His "rocket fuel" formula was one pound of bones per quart of water. ;)

Oh wait, do you put a lid on it or not? I did the first time. Maybe that was a mistake also...

 

[herondancer]

Re: Ketogenic Diet - Path To Transformation?

Fats and proteins skip the glycolysis step and enter the Krebs Cycle more directly. At the 14 minute mark in the second video he makes a quick reference to how fats and proteins enter the Krebs Cycle by a conversion to Acetyl CoA but he doesn't go into detail about it. It looks like what happens with fats is that their carbon chains are broken down two carbons at a time to make Acetyl CoA molecules. This process is called beta oxidation. I'm going to see if I can find a good video that explains it.

Here's a video on Beta Oxidation and fatty acid synthesis (he's no Khan and doesn't mention ketogenic acids in particular but may provide some working ideas). :
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=12XWXU8jhoE

The breakdown of fatty acids into acetyl-CoA is called Beta oxidation. In essentially the reverse of the B-oxidation pathway fatty acids are synthesized. The process of B-oxidation is not heavily regulated. Glycerol can be converted into glyceraldehyde-3-posphate and enter the gluconeogenisis pathway.

Thanks for the videos dugdeeep, they gave a good overview, massaging in the stuff already read on these processes. The whole thing is still kind of abstract, just needs a few more angles.

Thanks for all the links everyone. Videos are wonderful for making all those metabolic pathway diagrams more intelligible. Here's one more I found https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=mLi9SEIrbuc

Unfortunately his lecture is in the context of the effects of starvation in instigating the use of ketone bodies, but along the way are some throwaway remarks about how the muscles and and brain love ketone bodies for fuel. He doesn't even consider the idea of what if the body was not in a starvation state, but provided with a good supply of fat on an ongoing basis? Such is the programming I guess. Still it's not a bad presentation and fits in well with the other materials posted. I was most amazed at the one guy's lecture (plain white board/bad penmanship) when he stated that the metabolizing of one molecule of palmitic acid produced 108 ATP molecules vs 38 for the metabolism of a glucose molecule. Yikes! Why would anyone want to eat such inefficient fuel as glucose? Bring on the bone broth :)

 

[Laura]

Re: Ketogenic Diet - Path To Transformation?

Tell your husband this is NOT rocket science!

Heh, heh. His "rocket fuel" formula was one pound of bones per quart of water. ;)

Oh wait, do you put a lid on it or not? I did the first time. Maybe that was a mistake also...

You put a lid on it, but with a crack open.

 

[Laura]

Re: Ketogenic Diet - Path To Transformation?

I'm thinking that people who get nauseated or who have stomach aches from too much fat should maybe adjust the protein up a tad and/or the fat down to find what is exactly comfortable. It IS summer time for those of us in the Northern Hemisphere, after all. And we are having a series of hot days. Right after drinking that broth, you sure do get heated up!

 

[Ca.]

Re: Ketogenic Diet - Path To Transformation?

Just moved through a 24 hr fast, that ended about an hour ago. I stated last night, so when i woke this morning, it would have gone through routine to start the day to cook up the Paleo guideline fuel for the day, but continued with the fast, drinking water with magnesium, and an electrolyte off, and on all day.

The one thing a did to day was to clear out the refrigerator of no essential items, that are no longer of value with this endeavor. When i was finished it was only a 1/4 full then it was before.

All day i found that i just needed to ease into this, and just limited my activity's to doing house hold chores, and putting any thoughts of exercise, or stenuise activity's, aside to monitor how my body, and mind was feeling.

Though i did have the light headiness all day, and the stomach was doing a little growling wondering what was going, on no doubt.

This evening, i ended the fast with the consumption of some precooked bacon bits of fat, a table spoon of avocado, and some soup eating only the broth, and some of the protein made up of trukey, pork, and beef. Very small amount protein's to the fats. Still needed to figure out the ratio for my age, height, and metabolism, if i have that right.

Over the next couple of days i will try, and repeat this process to adjust it to where i can get back into hiking the hills around here, only this time under this regiment. It should be interesting to find my limits, of how far, and how long i can go. Might have bring some bacon fat, just in case.

i don't feel hungry now, and aim getting ready for bed, so i thought it would be a good idea to take some colon cleanse (2 tabs), vitamin c, and the good old melatonin before bed time.

Thanks, i still have lot of reading to do to find that balance, for the possible dividends. It is a great investment, for the possible future outcome.

 

[Laura]

Re: Ketogenic Diet - Path To Transformation?

c.a., did you read this entire thread before you embarked on your fast?

 

[Hildegarda]

Re: Ketogenic Diet - Path To Transformation?

If I only have chicken bones for the batch (we just chuck em in the freezer after each meal to accumulate for a future broth), I find that I rarely get gelatin. Donno why, it still puzzles me.

fwiw, I get the gelatinized broth from organic free-range chicken bones but not from regular chicken. I guess it is the "you are what you eat" thing for the bird. Also, the regular store-bought chicken is usually injected with saline or some kind of enzyme solution to artificially plump it up. I wonder if that does something to the bones as well.