Ketogenic Diet - Powerful Dietary Strategy for Certain Conditions

[mcb]

Re: Ketogenic Diet - Path To Transformation?

...I think that using our current weight is more reliable. This "ideal weight" business is BS, IMO. Everyone is different, it's very difficult to calculate the BMI, etc. If your body is at a certain weight now, you can make a rough calculation for the present, and adjust accordingly when you lose or put on weight. That's my take on it, FWIW. I don't think there is any "ideal". Some people are naturally heavier or lighter. The best thing is to listen to our bodies, and we'll know when it is functionning better and better.

I agree. When I estimated my RDA using "reference weight" it was unsustainably low (Phinney's 1.5-2 is more reasonable for me). I was not sure, however, that everybody here was on the same page. Since I am still focused on weight loss (for "mechanical" reasons, among other things), I have been adjusting my protein intake to be enough so that I don't go hungry. Not too surprisingly that seems to put me in the same general range as others here, using current weight for reference.

You can establish a sort of an "ideal" weight by trying different weights. Back in 2004, using ordinary calorie counting methods (which I do NOT recommend now -- it can burn muscle and vital organs!), I dropped down into my high school weight range before I reached full height. I was still above the middle of my "recommended" BMI range, and probably close to my Phinney/Metropolitan Life reference weight, but I did not look or feel healthy. So I think the tables are nonsense, at least for some (if not many) people. But when I came up 10 pounds I felt and looked much better, and much above that I started to have more problems again.

So I treat the range of about 177-180 lbs. as my "ideal" for now, although the results may be different on this ketogenic diet, and I may find a new "ideal" that is higher or lower than the old one. Anything below 186 is "normal" BMI for me, and will keep the medical folks from bugging me as well as allow me to wear anything in my closet again. I have only about 9 pounds to go to arrive there, and that will happen when it happens, if it happens -- no rush!

And, by the way, I suspect that height-to-waist ratio is a more useful indicator than BMI. I am just over 2:1, and below 2:1 is thought by some to be "good."

 

[shijing]

Re: Ketogenic Diet - Path To Transformation?

But at least, with bone broth, we have managed to avoid the nasty "brain fog" that often comes when one begins to force the body to work with fats instead of carbs.

Besides this, I've been wanting to mention that one of the most significant effects that I've noticed since making the recent adaptations to the ketogenic diet is a reduction in anxiety. This is something that's been an issue for me for a very long time, and the change is quite noticeable. The problem is not completely gone, but it's allowed me to feel much more like my mind is in charge of my emotions (instead of the other way around).

Since AI suggested it, I've also been enjoying adding things like bacon, sausage, and egg to my bone broth which makes it easier for me to drink -- as soon as I make another batch of pate, I'm going to try adding that too.

 

[mcb]

Re: Ketogenic Diet - Path To Transformation?

...Besides this, I've been wanting to mention that one of the most significant effects that I've noticed since making the recent adaptations to the ketogenic diet is a reduction in anxiety. This is something that's been an issue for me for a very long time, and the change is quite noticeable. The problem is not completely gone, but it's allowed me to feel much more like my mind is in charge of my emotions (instead of the other way around)...

You may also be able to directly, consciously reduce anxiety and stress. I have found that since I became aware of cortisol and its effect on appetite, I have been able to exert more control by relaxing and intentionally disregarding false stress triggers. I don't think it actually hurts, by the way, to feel stressed for a moment until you put the problem (whatever it is) in perspective, and perhaps confront it. Life is full of little surprises that trigger stress. You just don't want it eating away at you constantly.

I am anxiety-prone myself, and always have been. I think that the ketogenic diet has probably helped the most, although bone broth has been part of that for me since about the beginning of the year and it could be that too.

In the end, I would think that a combination of strategies for controlling anxiety and stress would be best.

 

[Carl]

Re: Ketogenic Diet - Path To Transformation?

But at least, with bone broth, we have managed to avoid the nasty "brain fog" that often comes when one begins to force the body to work with fats instead of carbs.

Besides this, I've been wanting to mention that one of the most significant effects that I've noticed since making the recent adaptations to the ketogenic diet is a reduction in anxiety. This is something that's been an issue for me for a very long time, and the change is quite noticeable. The problem is not completely gone, but it's allowed me to feel much more like my mind is in charge of my emotions (instead of the other way around).

I have to agree, it has been the same with me. I still feel anxiety sometimes, but it has become much easier to control and now only takes a few pipe breaths. The diet doesn't fix everything for us, but really empowers us to control our minds.

When I think about all the thousands of years of recent history that people have struggled with their minds day to day, and especially those mystics, alchemists, students who tried to evolve but lived off bread, milk etc.. I can't help but think "what a shame". It seems we have it a lot easier now, and it is something I am incredibly grateful for.

Is this group really the first to put it together? Are there no ancient allusions to the benefits of a ketogenic diet anywhere in history?

 

[Pierre]

Re: Ketogenic Diet - Path To Transformation?

So I think the tables are nonsense, at least for some (if not many) people.

Body Mass Index is an attempt to apply a one size-fit-all rule where it doesn't apply.

BMI doesn't take into account your body type (mesomorph, endomorph, meso-endo, exomorph), your bone structure (small, medium, large bone) and your age.

While body type might be partly correlated to the diet, bone structures and age are not.

 

[Chu]

Re: Ketogenic Diet - Path To Transformation?

Is this group really the first to put it together?

I don't know, but it would seem so. At least from the spiritual point of view, combined with the health aspect.

Are there no ancient allusions to the benefits of a ketogenic diet anywhere in history?

No idea. But if there is, the entire thing has been so corrupted it's unbelievable. I think we could safely say there IS evidence that people used to be healthier. But I'm not sure a connexion has been established between that and their level of consciousness. I would be willing to bet on that possibility, though.

Are you familiar with the work of Weston Price? He found out very interesting data about the paleo diet. Here's a short summary:

Weston Price, was a dentist known primarily for his theories on the relationship between nutrition, dental health, and physical health. He founded the research institute of the National Dental Association, which later became the research section of the American Dental Association, and served as its chair from 1914–1928. By 1930, Price had shifted his interest to nutrition. In 1939, he published Nutrition and Physical Degeneration, detailing his global travels studying the diets and nutrition of various cultures. The book concludes that aspects of a modern Western diet (particularly flour, sugar, and modern processed vegetable fats) cause nutritional deficiencies that are a cause of many dental issues and health problems. The dental issues he observed include the proper development of the facial structure (to avoid overcrowding of the teeth) in addition to dental caries.

Weston Price’s research discovered that cereal grain foods are the worst possible thing for our teeth! He discovered that foods high in dense nutrients, such as animal fats, were the best foods for our teeth. The reason for this is because animals were designed to collect all of the most valuable nutrients. These people had no degenerative diseases and perfect teeth. No traditional groups of humans throughout history were vegetarians as these foods were not available year round. However, Dr. Price found two eastern African tribes, the Kikuyu and the Bantu that ate a mostly vegetarian diet. They experienced tooth decay unlike their neighboring meat eating tribes.

Most so-called spiritual groups think they have it figured out and that they are too "speshul" to be thinking about diet. They believe to be above "all that physical stuff". Little do they know that it could make a huge difference! Then you have the vegetarian bunch, getting sicker and sicker and believing they are saving the planet with agriculture. Then you have some ketogenic groups, but who aren't necessarily interested in any work on themselves.

So yeah, we might be the only "crazy" people, which I suppose, makes us sane in this crazy world.

Btw, great idea about your bone broth at work! That's perfect for strategic enclosure and for making life easier on yourself and others. Good job!

 

[Gaby]

Re: Ketogenic Diet - Path To Transformation?

Are you familiar with the work of Weston Price? He found out very interesting data about the paleo diet. Here's a short summary:

They say that a picture is worth a thousand words. I attached one from Weston Price's book. He said that herdsmen-hunter-fishermen were among fittest. Weston Price noticed that in Australia, coastal Aborigines eating seafood were the healthiest. But when their diet was displaced by processed agricultural food, tuberculosis and crippling arthritis became common.

 

[Z...]

Re: Ketogenic Diet - Path To Transformation?

Is this group really the first to put it together?

I don't know, but it would seem so. At least from the spiritual point of view, combined with the health aspect.

It occurred to me few days ago, it wouldn't be a bad idea to think about writing a book - serious study as we have excellent sample of test subjects as well as manual with tips on menus, supplements, dos and donts etc.
Wadding through this thread may put off a lot of people who are not familiar with internet forums, but having all essential information in one book may help a lot of people out there.

 

[Carl]

Re: Ketogenic Diet - Path To Transformation?

Is this group really the first to put it together?

I don't know, but it would seem so. At least from the spiritual point of view, combined with the health aspect.

It occurred to me few days ago, it wouldn't be a bad idea to think about writing a book - serious study as we have excellent sample of test subjects as well as manual with tips on menus, supplements, dos and donts etc.
Wadding through this thread may put off a lot of people who are not familiar with internet forums, but having all essential information in one book may help a lot of people out there.

Maybe a book is not the best option, because we certainly don't have all the answers yet and this is more of a journey, as many have said in this thread.

I've noticed comments on the SOTT page where people are recommending vegetarian diets or other such nonsense. Maybe it would be better to do a SOTT Focus article on our adventure with the diet. There are a lot of articles posted there about diet issues, but they all deal with a different aspect such as gluten or dairy. Putting all that we've learned so far into a single big article, plus links to all the studies and book recommendations, could be very helpful to people who are struggling to connect the dots or simply don't realise the importance of diet.

The problem is that everybody is different, as 250 pages of the LWB prove. You can't get a feel for what the diet is all about, as well as all the complications and suggestions in that thread, just from a single article. However it could give people a great boost in knowledge and the incentive to start experimenting and learning more about the diet.

This is just a suggestion, as I know how extremely thin the time of SOTT editors is stretched, and organising all that information in a clear form would be an enormous task. I'm sure this idea has already occurred to many of you, so maybe there is something I am missing.

 

[Hesper]

Re: Ketogenic Diet - Path To Transformation?

Wow Psyche, thank you so much for sharing!

Remember that most, if not all of your "junk" DNA has viral-like properties and if a pathogenic virus takes hold of our DNA or RNA, it could lead to disease or cancer.

I'd just like to add that over the summer a fellow student of mine started working out and was really building her self-esteem. Now she's been hit with a nasty virus that has paralyzed half of her face, forced her to take medications that have put her weight back on, and made her feel like a mutant. It's like all of her progress is wasted. It's just one of those situations where one is horrified by the negative feedback loop-reality we live in.

As for bone broth I've had a hard time finding any place with big bones, so I'm waiting to find out where the "dog treats" at my local organic meat shop come from (they're HUGE bones, I'd have to take a hammer to them!!). In the meantime I'm just cooking spare ribs in the crock pot for about 12 hours, taking off the meat and then leaving the rest of the bones in the pot. I've been unsuccessful in the past, winding up with meat water rather than bone broth, so hopefully this time with the crockpot on for 24 hours (on high whenever I'm around to watch it) I'll get some results. Other than that I'm reading dark purple on the ketone sticks, and, like Shijing, notice very little anxiety.

This is just a suggestion, as I know how extremely thin the time of SOTT editors is stretched, and organising all that information in a clear form would be an enormous task. I'm sure this idea has already occurred to many of you, so maybe there is something I am missing.

I think the discussion about the book starts here in the LWB thread.

 

[Eboard10]

Re: Ketogenic Diet - Path To Transformation?

They say that a picture is worth a thousand words. I attached one from Weston Price's book. He said that herdsmen-hunter-fishermen were among fittest. Weston Price noticed that in Australia, coastal Aborigines eating seafood were the healthiest. But when their diet was displaced by processed agricultural food, tuberculosis and crippling arthritis became common.

I remember reading on SOTT that the Eskimo diet was based almost exclusively on meat and fish which provided for all the minerals and vitamins necessary for the human body to survive.

http://www.sott.net/articles/show/222697-The-Inuit-Paradox


[quote author=Shijing]
Besides this, I've been wanting to mention that one of the most significant effects that I've noticed since making the recent adaptations to the ketogenic diet is a reduction in anxiety. This is something that's been an issue for me for a very long time, and the change is quite noticeable. The problem is not completely gone, but it's allowed me to feel much more like my mind is in charge of my emotions (instead of the other way around).
[/quote]

Same here Shijing. Since going on the ketogenic diet I have been noticing a considerable reduction in stress and anxiety along with reduced inflammation, which in my case can be observed by a reduction in facial spots (a surprisingly effective way of regulating what I eat).

 

[mcb]

Re: Ketogenic Diet - Path To Transformation?

It occurred to me few days ago, it wouldn't be a bad idea to think about writing a book - serious study as we have excellent sample of test subjects as well as manual with tips on menus, supplements, dos and donts etc.
Wadding through this thread may put off a lot of people who are not familiar with internet forums, but having all essential information in one book may help a lot of people out there.

While it might seem otherwise at times, this is actually part of an esoteric pursuit. Those sorts of things are not known for providing really clear documentation. :) Perhaps that is because the process of getting there is as important as the goal? Lessons all.

When I suggested recommending a "starter" book earlier, I was thinking of people that aren't necessarily on this path and who might try things that are unsafe, as well as of providing information for newcomers to use during the initial detox and food testing phase. After that, I don't think there is too much you are going to be able to get from a book; it's a progression -- a process of discovery -- and quite a bit of it is individual. As usual, I could be wrong.

 

[Hesper]

Re: Ketogenic Diet - Path To Transformation?

It occurred to me few days ago, it wouldn't be a bad idea to think about writing a book - serious study as we have excellent sample of test subjects as well as manual with tips on menus, supplements, dos and donts etc.
Wadding through this thread may put off a lot of people who are not familiar with internet forums, but having all essential information in one book may help a lot of people out there.

While it might seem otherwise at times, this is actually part of an esoteric pursuit. Those sorts of things are not known for providing really clear documentation. :) Perhaps that is because the process of getting there is as important as the goal? Lessons all.

When I suggested recommending a "starter" book earlier, I was thinking of people that aren't necessarily on this path and who might try things that are unsafe, as well as of providing information for newcomers to use during the initial detox and food testing phase. After that, I don't think there is too much you are going to be able to get from a book; it's a progression -- a process of discovery -- and quite a bit of it is individual. As usual, I could be wrong.

I was thinking the same thing, but at the same time isn't everything we do here part of a process, and wasn't the Wave series a process? This project may be just as good for us (as an exercise in putting our hammer to the anvil) as it would be for those who read it. In fact the process of discovery could make for a very interesting part (or winding thread) for the book. OSIT

 

[mcb]

Re: Ketogenic Diet - Path To Transformation?

...I was thinking the same thing, but at the same time isn't everything we do here part of a process, and wasn't the Wave series a process? This project may be just as good for us (as an exercise in putting our hammer to the anvil) as it would be for those who read it. In fact the process of discovery could make for a very interesting part (or winding thread) for the book. OSIT

The Wave is a good example (I am in the process of re-reading it--wow!). It tells you about things, but you still need to apply it to you and see what to do. I had a huge insight while I was reading last week, but the insight itself was nowhere to be found in the text. Learning is fun.

So what would this book be called? Food for Thought?

 

[mcb]

Re: Ketogenic Diet - Path To Transformation?

This podcast might be of interest:

_http://livinlavidalowcarb.com/blog/do-low-carb-diets-lower-thyroid-function-lets-ask-the-experts/15305

If you’ve been paying attention in the low-carb and/or Paleo communities over the past year or so, then no doubt you’ve heard the popular meme promoted by certain Paleo diet advocates that zero-carb and very low-carb diets (ketogenic) lead to lower thyroid function, among other issues. They claim that this leads to a diminished capacity for T4 to be converted into T3 thyroid hormone because of the lack of glucose consumed by low-carb dieters. This concept has been heavily promoted by highly-respected practioners like Chris Kresser who sees patients from what he describes as “the dark side of Paleo and low-carb” dealing with hair loss, cold extremities, feeling horrible and other such negative manifestations of experiencing a low thyroid function.

However, two of the top low-carb nutritional health researchers in the world — Dr. Stephen Phinney and Dr. Jeff Volek — say this phenomenon with low thyroid while on a low-carbohydrate diet promoted by people in the Paleo community like Kresser and Paul Jaminet is “a myth” and has not manifested itself in any of the research subjects in their numerous studies of people who are properly following a well-formulated low-carb diet with adequate calories over the past three decades. Dr. Phinney believes the primary point of contention revolves around consuming an adequate amount of calories with your low-carbohydrate nutritional intake in order to normalize thyroid and metabolic function without the necessity for consuming added sources of dietary glucose. Dr. Volek concurs stating that it’s calorie-restriction that brings on this low thyroid effect, not limiting carbohydrates.

I haven't heard this particular version yet, but I believe I have heard all of the material while listening to the podcasts in the series. In this instance I am inclined to favor Phinney & Volek over Kresser, based upon the sum of my own experience. For me the key seems to be keeping the carbs fairly low, adjusting protein to make things work, and topping off with fat, and I have a wacky endocrine system. I did raise carbs for a while (staying usually at or below 50g/d), partly to test this idea, and I am back down to 30 now and planning to go lower. It does appear that a very occasional hi-carb "jolt" could help to break out of "stuck" situations. For me, "high" means 70 grams in a day, not hundreds, and "stuck" means truly stuck. I have only tried it once so far.

I don't think now that the problem I was having was was thyroid, and I don't think that people should avoid a ketogenic diet because it might cause thyroid problems. You have to stay with it until you figure it out, backing off when required (due to severe symptoms) and trying different things, as I was suggesting earlier.