Ketogenic Diet - Powerful Dietary Strategy for Certain Conditions

[truth seeker]

Re: Ketogenic Diet - Path To Transformation?

I am not up to date on this thread (or most else I can think of for that matter) so I'm sorry if I missed something that makes what I say pointless, -but for me the weightloss happens fast when only eating fatty meat, and slows down when adding some carbs (and stops or the gaining of weight starts if adding more carbs) For me it goes very fast, -not long ago when experimenting with fruits and veggies (while visiting someone who owns a scale) I went 2 kilos up in 2 days and lost them again in 2 or 3 days when going back to roast pork.
I saw in the "how much weight did you lose on the diet" thread that Astreides was the champion, and as it seems from his "The List" that he don't add any veggies, I wondered if it is so that the people who wants to lose weight could benefit from no carbs, and the people who want to gain weight could benifit from adding more?

I don't know that it's that simple. I'm one of the skinny people and would looove to gain at least 10 - 15 pounds. Unfortunately, my body doesn't tolerate carbs of any kind so basically it's the health and overall wellbeing that is paramount.

It's really important that you try and get up to speed in this thread (particularly what's been posted in the last 2 weeks or so) to understand how carbs of any kind may be hurting us in ways we may just be beginning to full understand.

 

[Alana]

Re: Ketogenic Diet - Path To Transformation?

I am not up to date on this thread (or most else I can think of for that matter) so I'm sorry if I missed something that makes what I say pointless, -but for me the weightloss happens fast when only eating fatty meat, and slows down when adding some carbs (and stops or the gaining of weight starts if adding more carbs) For me it goes very fast, -not long ago when experimenting with fruits and veggies (while visiting someone who owns a scale) I went 2 kilos up in 2 days and lost them again in 2 or 3 days when going back to roast pork.
I saw in the "how much weight did you lose on the diet" thread that Astreides was the champion, and as it seems from his "The List" that he don't add any veggies, I wondered if it is so that the people who wants to lose weight could benefit from no carbs, and the people who want to gain weight could benifit from adding more?

I don't know that it's that simple. I'm one of the skinny people and would looove to gain at least 10 - 15 pounds. Unfortunately, my body doesn't tolerate carbs of any kind so basically it's the health and overall wellbeing that is paramount.

I am the same, I would love to gain some pounds too, but don't do well with carbs, except some sweet potato here and there. I am still in the process of reading all the material on ketosis, resistance exercise and IF. I was thinking that before I start the IF I would do some workout and up my fat intake so that I gain some muscle mass. For my body type is difficult to gain muscle mass, but I have seen improvement since starting the HF/LC diet. Well, other people couldn't tell by just looking at me, but I feel physically stronger than before, and I can lift heavy stuff compared to before. I can also see my muscles without flexing them :)

After reading your accounts today though, I am thinking of doing the IF with only drinking fatty broth instead for a couple of days a week, and get on with the kettleball (sp?) training 3 days a week too. I'll see how this goes after a couple of weeks and report back.

 

[Miss.K]

Re: Ketogenic Diet - Path To Transformation?

-snip-

It's really important that you try and get up to speed in this thread (particularly what's been posted in the last 2 weeks or so) to understand how carbs of any kind may be hurting us in ways we may just be beginning to full understand.

Thank you, I will be snailing through the last bit of this thread before snailing through the rest.

It does seem to me that I work best with meat/fat only. I get a little afraid of missing something important (vitamins etc,), which is why I've tried to add some veggies or fruit at times (and also I like fruit, don't like veggies so much). I have not done a proper testing period (adding only one thing and waiting 3 days, but usually adding 2 or 3 things within 3 days, and then not being able to tell which one was the sinner), but everytime I added some veggies I have unwanted side effects like bags under my eyes, inflated stomach, swollen feet or something like that.
With apples or berries only inflated stomach when eating too much of it, (I have a big resistance of eating pills, so I'm really good at forgetting to eat the vitamins, which is also why I have allowed a few apples)

I know that I'm taking a risk making changes before knowing it all, but so far my energy, and skin has improved, as well as most excess fat and candida has gone. I have mainly only eaten pork or lamb, and then a few apples. -1 a day is good, 2 is OK, 3 is too many, or so it seems, though studies might point to apples just being evil (gimme that apple Eve!) So no carbs apart from the apples (apart from trying some veggies from time to time, but they seem to have unwanted side effects as said)
I am also good at forgetting to by bones for bone broth, and at forgetting to make it, or drink it when it's made. Something inside gets hysterical about that eating should be so difficult, (thousands of words, and Latin names of ingredients in this and that supplement or disease, finding money to by very expensive supplements, swallowing huge pills, etc. etc. or I will get sick and die) and I was relieved to read Astreides "The List" as I stopped trying to force veggies into the diet since that, as I thought that I probably wouldn't die from only eating pork if he didn't (though he might not have trouble eating vitamins or bone broth, -which again is why the apples were allowed on my list)

I know I'm lacking in knowledge, and that I'm very slow at catching up. So far I think that getting stressed (hysterical inside) is a worse danger to my health than my being slow.
I tell people who are interested in the diet that they have to study first, as what I do can be dangerous, and usually refer them to the Primal Body Primal Mind website, though from what I can see, there is a lot of food recommended there that I wouldn't eat.

 

[truth seeker]

Re: Ketogenic Diet - Path To Transformation?

I know that I'm taking a risk making changes before knowing it all, but so far my energy, and skin has improved, as well as most excess fat and candida has gone. I have mainly only eaten pork or lamb, and then a few apples. -1 a day is good, 2 is OK, 3 is too many, or so it seems, though studies might point to apples just being evil (gimme that apple Eve!) So no carbs apart from the apples (apart from trying some veggies from time to time, but they seem to have unwanted side effects as said)

I'm glad to hear that your health is improving but again, you really need to read the entire thread before making any further changes so that you can do it safely. It's taken me approximately 2 years to get my diet down to meat and fat. I'm not suggesting that it will take you that long as your specific situation would be different, but I can't stress to you enough that you take care and do the reading so that you fully understand what your doing and why.

 

[mcb]

Re: Ketogenic Diet - Path To Transformation?

I have been, among other things, following up on the research behind "protein restriction." Starting with Primal Body, Primal Mind, I found that that information cited and stemmed from research by Ron Rosedale, specifically a 2009 report by Rosedale, Westman, and Kanhilas. That report in turn, for the mTOR conclusions, cited three others including one from 2006 by Sanz et al. that I was able to obtain inexpensively.

It is too early for me to draw conclusions, but I did notice another recurrence of an interesting pattern that has been turning up in various nutritional research articles that I have been reviewing. Most of the articles are not available in full for free, and if you only see the abstract or the first page, you might never notice this. But in this report, that examined the effects of restriction of a specific amino acid (methionine) in rats, here is what they were fed:

The semipurified diets used in this investigation were prepared by MP Biochemicals (formerly ICN), Irvine, CA, USA. Control animals were fed ad libitum a semipurified diet based on the American Institute of Nutrition AIN-93G diet: 31.80% cornstarch, 31.80% sucrose, 5.00% dextrin, 8.00% corn oil, 5.00% alphacel non-nutritive bulk, 1.12% L-arginine, 1.44% L-lysine, 0.33% L-hystidine, 1.11% L-leucine, 0.82% i.-isoleucine, 0.82% L-valine, 0.82% L-threonine, 0.18% L-tryptophan, 0.86% L-methionine, 2.70% i-glutamic acid, 1.16% i-phenylalanine, 2.33% glycine, 0.20% choline bitartrate, 1.00% AIN vitamin mix, and 3.50% AIN mineral mix. The methionine-restricted rats received the same diet except that L-methionine was 0.17% and i-glutamic acid was 3.39%.

So they ate 77% cornstarch, sugar, and corn oil. The first question that comes to my mind, then, is what do these results really have to do with life extension?

If it were an isolated case that would be one thing, but I don't think it is. The pattern I think I am starting to see is that lab-animal research generally uses standardized animals and feeds them standardized diets from a handful of lab feed producers, and the standardized diets tend to be highly unnatural (and not just when made so intentionally). This practice could be introducing "confounding variables" into both observational studies and into specific experiments (like this one) that could render the results less meaningful or even meaningless.

That is all I can say about that for now. By the way, here is a new Chris Kresser post about the "safe starch" debate. It's interesting to note that Rosedale (that I mentioned above) seems to take a "starch is toxic" stand, emphasizing that no amount of starch consumption can be called "safe," and that Nora Gedgaudas draws from Rosedale's work.

_http://chriskresser.com/is-starch-a-beneficial-nutrient-or-a-toxin

Kresser is a "safe starch" advocate, but doesn't appear to go as far with it as some others. He makes this comment at the end of his post (specifically mentioning Rosedale and also "Dr. Cate"):

If Drs. Rosedale and Shanahan are going to advise us to avoid an entire class of food that has been eaten for a couple of million years by humans, the burden of proof is on them to tell us why that food isn’t safe. Evidence from roundworm experiments and biochemical/mechanistic speculation is not enough in the face of overwhelming evidence that starch and glucose are safe in the absence of certain existing health conditions.

I am not taking sides one way or the other, and I find the contributions of Gedgaudas, Shanahan, and Kresser very useful (and I may end up consulting with Shanahan and Kresser at some point), but I like to see the chains of influence in the material I study, and I do find the differences between researchers more revealing about what needs examining next than I find it disconcerting.

 

[Miss.K]

Re: Ketogenic Diet - Path To Transformation?

-snip-
I'm glad to hear that your health is improving but again, you really need to read the entire thread before making any further changes so that you can do it safely. It's taken me approximately 2 years to get my diet down to meat and fat. I'm not suggesting that it will take you that long as your specific situation would be different, but I can't stress to you enough that you take care and do the reading so that you fully understand what your doing and why.

The 2 years that it has taken you to get the diet down to meat and fat; Isn't that due to that the research of the group hadn't yet discovered the benefits of the animal fat?
As I have understood it, the change of the body going into ketosis can be done in 3 weeks (I myself changed over 3 or 4 months last summer)

I think it is true that it is important to understand what and why, but some things are evident, like if I eat something and get sick, tired, or inflated, it is better not to eat it. I mean I wouldn't say that one should continue eating wheat and dairy and sugar, until one has read everything written on those things, and everything written on effects of not eating those things, as one might die or get too sick to read before having read it all.

I know that what feels right can't always be trusted, as people claim that Heroin feels right, but what feels right is not always wrong. I started the diet change from watching the dot connector video on nutrition, because it felt right. Though I had heard from people that were into studying health and food, that being a vegetarian was the most healthy, and that fat (specially animal fat) was unhealthy, it never felt right to me. (it seemed to be missing fuel IMO) I never believed in the lowfat products as they didn't feel right. I did know that the bread was not good though it felt good short term (taste good and fills a void coming from not eating enough fat I guess), but I knew that it wasn't right to eat because of the side effects of inflated stomach and candida.

That being said, I think that you are right that it is important for me to study, as I should be sure to cover what my body needs to function well. That I'm having resistance/little time/ too much stress to do as much research as what is recommended is why I do as I do on own risk, and never recommend to other people to change without knowing more than I do. I'm still studying, I'm just very slow, and it might cost me 300.000 years under a red sky, but since I suspected that I suffer from Adrenal fatigue or PTSD or something like that, I have refused to get stressed about not doing enough, fast enough.

 

[Laura]

Re: Ketogenic Diet - Path To Transformation?

So true, Megan. Ya gotta read those papers like a hawk. We're lucky if we can get any really good clues out of them, their experiments are SOOOOO BAAAAAD. And of course, bad experiments can lead to some really bad conclusions.

 

[Chu]

Re: Ketogenic Diet - Path To Transformation?

Report from Atreides and I:

We both started the protein restriction on August 6th. On the 8th at night, we started fasting until yesterday morning (36-38 hours). Our breath was really "acetone-like". Since then, we've been eating mostly bone broth (very fatty!), reduced protein, and lots of fat. We have come up with a perfect snack that just constitutes a meal for us: a thin slice of pork saussage with a big gulp of lard on top, and a bit of liver paté. It's delicious! 2 or three of those and you are done!

Combined with this, we started working out every second day, doing 20-30 minutes. One minute strong effort, two rest, etc. AND, we began experimenting with cold baths. Before we were just doing cold showers. We don't get out of the bath until our bodies are at least 26 degrees Celcius (10 degree drop).

So, as to the effects:

On the second day, we started feeling more and more energetic.

Atreides, who always has trouble sleeping, started sleeping like a baby, and having LOTS of energy. He says he can "think" he's tired, but when he gets going, he just forgets about it and does a lot. And he has lost more weight (5 kilos). His mind is super sharp and he can do a lot of mental and physical work. His skin looks better and better too.

I had damaged my knee and it was really hurting before these adjustments. For the past three days, I have been an energizing bunny and pain-free! I haven't stopped doing stuff all day today, and I'm not a bit tired. I feel better than when I was 10 years old! And when I sit on the computer, I get much more done in an hour than my usual performace. I lost 2 kilos.

So, all in all, it has been very positive. It might be a bit early to tell, but...



Oh, and we haven't noticed any side effects at all. Just a bit of hunger, but I think that's just from our habit of eating more.

 

[Gimpy]

Re: Ketogenic Diet - Path To Transformation?

At 48 hours, after my weight-lifting episode that was SOOOO HARD, kids suggested that I should have a bowl of very fatty bone broth which had just been made. It had lots of the marrow fat. So, I had some and it has been an hour and a half, and I've moved up the next level on the ketostix!

I noticed the young'ns went into ketosis so fast and easy and they are buzzing around loaded with energy. But I'm just dragging my sorry self around looking for a place to take a nap!!!

But I'm not going to let this recalcitrant system off the hook! It will do what I tell it or else!

Wasn't feeling hungry yesterday, and ate very little, all of it protein....and had an episode of diarrhea that kept me in the bathroom for about 45 minutes. That confirms the suspicion I'd had after reading about calorie restriction: the lack of a gall bladder means some kind of greens or other low carb veggies are necessary, and I'm not certain for how long? I do take a fiber supplement to help with that called Glucomannan...made with low carb fiber. It didn't work at all with protein alone.

Today I'm so tired its an effort to move around, and this is after sleeping in and having a rest for an hour after filling a few bird feeders. Its even an effort to type, which is frustrating.

Currently, exercise is restricted to a stationery recumbent bike, and 3lb hand weights, due to balance issues. I did well with that yesterday, but today I feel like ten miles of rough road. I've read the papers on calorie restriction and on naicin for MS, good stuff!

I can relate to your frustration, 'cause I'm in that boat and my oars are gone.....

 

[Chu]

Re: Ketogenic Diet - Path To Transformation?

In case anyone is interested, this is and OKish chart listing the content of protein and fat in foods, amongst other things. It's not perfect, but at least it lists "lean and fat" foods, while almost all other lists are a product of the obession with lean meats, so they don't even list anything fatty.

http://www.google.com/url?sa=t&rct=j&q=&esrc=s&source=web&cd=1&sqi=2&ved=0CFYQFjAA&url=http%3A%2F%2F64.78.32.129%2Fdocuments%2Ffactsheets%2FProtein.pdf&ei=-7omULnWMMLPhAfxtIDoBw&usg=AFQjCNF7Yc8lu784kDDjPt17O2FnOmo3hw&sig2=GwTPJve9tlu7NMXGwA9pCA

We have been doing rough calculations to see what amount of protein each of us here can have according to our body weight (supposedly, one should eat 1,5grams of protein per kilogram of body weight). And based on the meat we get, we've estimated that there is more fat in ours than in what was measured for this chart.

So I hope it helps those of you who aren't sure of how much protein is too much. We don't obsess about it, though. It's just to have a general idea. As surprise, surprise, fatty porkchops, fatty saussage, fatty beef, fatty fish, bacon and fatty liver paté are the winners. ;)

 

[Chu]

Re: Ketogenic Diet - Path To Transformation?

I'm one of the skinny people and would looove to gain at least 10 - 15 pounds. Unfortunately, my body doesn't tolerate carbs of any kind so basically it's the health and overall wellbeing that is paramount.

I am the same, I would love to gain some pounds too, but don't do well with carbs, except some sweet potato here and there. I am still in the process of reading all the material on ketosis, resistance exercise and IF. I was thinking that before I start the IF I would do some workout and up my fat intake so that I gain some muscle mass. For my body type is difficult to gain muscle mass, but I have seen improvement since starting the HF/LC diet. Well, other people couldn't tell by just looking at me, but I feel physically stronger than before, and I can lift heavy stuff compared to before. I can also see my muscles without flexing them :)

After reading your accounts today though, I am thinking of doing the IF with only drinking fatty broth instead for a couple of days a week, and get on with the kettleball (sp?) training 3 days a week too. I'll see how this goes after a couple of weeks and report back.

That sounds good.

In one of the papers shared by Laura:

http://www.google.com/url?sa=t&rct=j&q=&esrc=s&source=web&cd=2&ved=0CGwQFjAB&url=http%3A%2F%2Fsurvivalbiology.files.wordpress.com%2F2011%2F08%2Fmitochondrial-energetics-douglas-c-wallace.pdf&ei=8OEeULrxDajV0QXmgIEI&usg=AFQjCNGIBk0aI7QDy7DzjB2AOKs21dB2bw&sig2=I4nR9Tr1_6IhR5mk2jDruA

there is something that caught very much our attention when thinking about all the skinny people in the forum who complain about not being able to put on weight:

The potential energy stored in ΔP is used for multiple purposes: (a) to import proteins and Ca2+ into the mitochondrion, (b) to generate heat, and (c) to synthesize ATP within the mitochondrial matrix. The energy to convert ADP + Pi to ATP comes from the flow of protons through the
ATP synthetase (complex V) back into the matrix. Matrix ATP is then exchanged for cytosolic ADP by the inner-membrane adenine nucleotide translocators (ANTs) (Figure 1) (11).
The efficiency with which dietary reducing equivalents are converted to ATP by OXPHOS is known as the coupling efficiency. This is determined by the efficiency with which protons are pumped out of the matrix by complexes I, III, and IV and by the efficiency with which proton flux through complex V is converted to ATP. The uncoupler drug 2,4-dinitrophenol and the nDNA-encoded uncoupler proteins 1, 2, and 3 render the mitochondrial inner membrane “leaky” for protons. This short-circuits the mitochondrial inner-membrane capacitor; uncouples electron transport from ATP synthesis; and causes the ETC to run at its maximum rate, thereby dissipating the energy as heat.

Variation in mitochondrial proteins has been proposed to alter the OXPHOS coupling efficiency, thus altering the proportion of the calories burned by the mitochondrion that are allocated to ATP generation versus heat production. Alterations in the coupling efficiency can influence ROS generation, modulating Ca2+ uptake, and predilection to apoptosis. Such physiological changes permitted our ancestors to adapt to a range of new environments (12–15).

Omitting the technical details, what it comes down to, I think, is that "skinny people" with a "high metabolism may ALSO have mitochondrial mutations. Instead of producing enough ATP (the body's "battery"), they burn whatever they eat very fast, as heat. So, by doing these adjustments in the diet, would we find that the mitochondria gets healed (more of the wild mitochondria being activated/healed), and therefore, skinny people would have more energy (ATP) and possibly gain a few pounds with the workout and the good use and storage of fat? I don't know, and this may be too simplistic, but I think there is a possibility there.

 

[Laura]

Re: Ketogenic Diet - Path To Transformation?

Wasn't feeling hungry yesterday, and ate very little, all of it protein....and had an episode of diarrhea that kept me in the bathroom for about 45 minutes. That confirms the suspicion I'd had after reading about calorie restriction: the lack of a gall bladder means some kind of greens or other low carb veggies are necessary, and I'm not certain for how long? I do take a fiber supplement to help with that called Glucomannan...made with low carb fiber. It didn't work at all with protein alone.

Found a few things on the web about this since I know other people doing the low carb/no fiber diet without a gall-bladder and it works quite well:

http://paleohacks.com/questions/62389/can-a-person-with-no-gall-bladder-still-eat-fat#axzz23GyNKCJE

Crystal
December 29, 2011 at 8:17 am

I had my gallbladder removed a few years ago and ever since, I have had serious digestive problems. I’ve been told by doctors and specialist that I need to eat a low-fat diet because the gallbladder’s main function is breaking down fats into bile and since I no longer have a gallbladder that my body isnt capable of breaking down fats. And then I’ve been reading your book and blogs and I feel so confused about fats! Should someone who has their gallbladder removed eat a “paleo” diet when it focuses so much on animal fats? I am finding your blog posts and book to be very informative but I have this question screaming at me in the back of my mind. I will be honest, I am not entirely finished with your book so I hope this isn’t directly answered and I’m just not there yet. But I am worried about starting this and becoming even more ill than I already am (though at this point I am desperate because a low-fat diet doesn’t seem to be making a difference).

Reply
Dr. Cate Dr. Cate
December 29, 2011 at 11:12 am

It may help to know, if you don’t already, that your liver does still produce bile as usual, it’s just not stored for release on demand as it should be. So you can eat fat, just maybe you need to do it in smaller, more frequent doses. Food Rules actually has a couple tips on food combining that may help you! One is, before you eat anything fatty have a little bit of a fermented pickle (actual pickle, kimchee, saurkraut). These foods can jump start your pancreatic digestive enzymes, which should still be working normally, and you may need a jump start because one of the jobs of bile acids is to activate pancreatic enzymes.

I bet you have a local naturopath or at least a supplement store in your area where you can get some guidance on digestive enzyme supplements that contain bile acids, that will help–if (that’s a big if) your current symptoms are due to the gallbladder removal. Remember that you had some symptoms before your GB was removed and not all may have been due to gallstones, so it’s good to get with a real competent diagnostician and make sure to sort things out from scratch.

And:

How to Enjoy Bacon without a Gallbladder
http://paleoparents.com/featured/how-to-enjoy-bacon-without-a-gallbladder/

 

[truth seeker]

Re: Ketogenic Diet - Path To Transformation?

Omitting the technical details, what it comes down to, I think, is that "skinny people" with a "high metabolism may ALSO have mitochondrial mutations. Instead of producing enough ATP (the body's "battery"), they burn whatever they eat very fast, as heat. So, by doing these adjustments in the diet, would we find that the mitochondria gets healed (more of the wild mitochondria being activated/healed), and therefore, skinny people would have more energy (ATP) and possibly gain a few pounds with the workout and the good use and storage of fat? I don't know, and this may be too simplistic, but I think there is a possibility there.

You may be on to something. I've been doing a modified version of the fast and my energy levels seemed to have improved over the last few days. I'll look into the exercise.

Oh, and another thing that's good to have if you feel a bit peckish is a cup of tea with some lard/butter in it. I'll usually do this if it's getting too close to bedtime. It's also nice at breakfast.

 

[Laura]

Re: Ketogenic Diet - Path To Transformation?

Well, I'm in full ketosis now and that's after having a tiny sausage patty after my bone broth, and then later, another bowl of the broth and a slice of liver pate. So, you can jump start it with a 48 hour (or 36 hour, depending on your system) fast, and bump it up with something fatty. That is, those people who might have problems getting there.

I can't say I'm all energized or anything, but then, I've probably got so much damaged mtDNA it'll take a week or longer to start experiencing any real changes.

It really does help to understand what is going on. So many times before when I would go into ketosis, since nothing really happened, I figured "it doesn't work for me" and said "heck with it". But now, understanding that the issue is probably a load of damaged mtDNA and how the system works to fix this and what the requirements are to help it along, well, it makes the experiment doable. All that is the theory, I want to see if it works on a hard case like me.

 

[anart]

Re: Ketogenic Diet - Path To Transformation?

I had my gall bladder removed around a dozen years ago and I just take hcl with my meals. I tried taking ox bile with my meals but it caused serious digestive issues, so then I stopped that and just used the betaine hcl/pepsin combination everything seems normal and I don't have any apparent issues digesting my very low carb diet - which is great. fwiw.