Ketogenic Diet - Powerful Dietary Strategy for Certain Conditions

[nicklebleu]

Re: Ketogenic Diet - Path To Transformation?

Just received the results from my latest blood lipids, they have skyrocketed ...

Cholesterol 14.2 (0 - 5.5 mmol/l)
Triglycerides 4.98 90 - 1.8 mmol/l)
HDL 1.27 (0.9 - 2.00
Chol/ HDL ratio 11.18

I'm not familiarized with mmol/l, but it does look very high. I read some paleo research which I can't find right now. I can only find some mentions of it in comments here and there. It was basically a few people starting the paleo diet and having super high levels of cholesterol that were actually concerning, not the high level that should be normal when you throw out the cholesterol myth. Through various tests and experimentation, it was tracked down to a lack of cooper, magnesium, iodine and choline in the diet. These were balanced up and there were some positive results. Perhaps researching this line will bring some results. It could well be that your body is lacking on specific nutrients according to your needs and how you process cholesterol.

Thanks, Psyche!
Will search further in this direction ... and yes, my levels are superhigh, and frankly, I was shocked.

 

[Gertrudes]

Re: Ketogenic Diet - Path To Transformation?

Just received the results from my latest blood lipids, they have skyrocketed ...

Cholesterol 14.2 (0 - 5.5 mmol/l)
Triglycerides 4.98 90 - 1.8 mmol/l)
HDL 1.27 (0.9 - 2.00
Chol/ HDL ratio 11.18

These figures would send every cardiologist into a spin. Now I am not a believer in the lipid hypothesis, but these figures are a bit scary. I wonder if there is something that I have overlooked ...

Nicklebleu, just wanted to add that my cholesterol was also very high when I first started the diet and it has gradually been decreasing. I don't know if this is what's happening with you, it will make sense if you haven't yet been in ketosis for long, but just as an example, I must have entered Ketosis myself around April or June last year, however, I only measured my cholesterol levels for the first time in September. They were very high. This is an excerpt I posted this June in the LWB tread:

...on September last year my total cholesterol was at 417mg, yes, that high. In March this year it was at 324mg. In April it was at 313mg, and finally last time it was checked in the very beginning of this month (added note: June) it was at 296mg...

If memory doesn't fail me I had another test done in July where total cholesterol was around 250mg.

A conversion to mmol gives us:

417mg/dl = 10.78mmol/l
324mg/dl = 8.37mmol/l
313mg/dl = 8.09mmol/l
296mg/dl = 7.65mmol/l
250mg/dl = 6.46mmol/l

Maybe give it a few weeks, even a few months, and test again?

Changing fuel is such a dramatic inner change in our bodies that perhaps it makes sense that "numbers" look rather odd for a period of time. Even those people mentioned in Psyche's last post, if they had only began the diet, perhaps that's a factor in and of itself for causing all of those minerals to be unbalanced for a period of time.

Dr. Lutz, author of LWB, did long term researches with low carb diets, which isn't ketosis but can give us some insights, and he reported observing changes in the subjects whose blood he tested still a few years after they had began the diet. This reflects quite a long period of adaptation, osit.

 

[mcb]

Re: Ketogenic Diet - Path To Transformation?

Just received the results from my latest blood lipids, they have skyrocketed ...

Cholesterol 14.2 (0 - 5.5 mmol/l)
Triglycerides 4.98 90 - 1.8 mmol/l)
HDL 1.27 (0.9 - 2.00
Chol/ HDL ratio 11.18

...

Chris Kresser (I have high cholesterol and I don't care) has had quite a bit to say about cholesterol, and he says yours is high. (_http://chriskresser.com/5-reasons-not-to-worry-about-your-cholesterol-numbers)

...if you’re going to get your lipds tested at least pay attention to the right numbers. And the most important number on a conventional lipid panel is the relationship between triglycerides and HDL. (Divide triglyercids by HDL to get it.) If that number is less than 2, this suggests you have mostly large, buoyant LDL – which is not a risk factor for heart disease. If that number is higher than 3, it suggests you have mostly small, dense LDL – which most certainly is a risk factor for heart disease.

Yours is 3.9, and that is a concern. (Phinney & Volek and other sources mention this ratio as well.) Then there is this footnote:

Note: if your total cholesterol levels are very high (i.e. above 300 mg/dL), this may be an indicator of a metabolic abnormality or inflammatory process that needs to be addressed. Cholesterol is a repair substance in the body, and persistent elevations beyond a certain threshold may point to an underlying problem that hasn’t been identified.

If you continue to have readings like these, that is also a concern. For any one set of readings, there is the possibility that the test is in error.

There is other information on Kresser's website if you Google for it, and he has a "high cholesterol action plan" that he sells, although you might want to make sure you have a problem before you go too much further.

If I were in this situation I would try to bring the numbers back into the expected ranges for a low-carb diet, even if it meant backing off from zero carbs for a while, while doing more research. I don't think I would want to just keep doing what I was doing and watching to see what happened. I would try to get back to a better state, and then try to zero in on what was producing this response.

Unfortunately, most MDs don't seem to work that way. I don't imagine they can make you do what they say, but if they aren't interested in causes then they may not be able to help you either. You might have to look elsewhere.

 

[dugdeep]

Re: Ketogenic Diet - Path To Transformation?

Yes, this is more of a bodybuilding workout, to promote hypertrophy (bigger muscles) with a lot of volume (sets x reps). This doesn't seem to work long term on a keto diet, with no glycogen for the muscles.

Maybe a shorter, high intensity workout would have a better effect (less volume) depending on your age and health. Also a day just for arms is not necessary unless on a pure bodybuilding program looking to have the biggest muscles possible. A couple sets on triceps on chest day, and biceps on back day is all I would personally bother with, if that.

That said, if it's still working well for you (any routine will if you were untrained initially) then keep going :) .


I've personally been training in the gym for just over a year now. When I went into deep ketosis I eventually had to say byebye to my strength gains, and my muscles are noticeably smaller, as they're not pumped full of glycogen. Since it has been a hobby of mine for quite a while, it is rather frustrating to be unable to make progress on this diet, so I have been considering starting a Targeted Ketogenic Diet. This is where you only have carbs pre/post workout, around 50-100g, when your muscles can utilise it most effectively.

Still, this doesnt sound conductive to our experiment, and may stall the healing effects of the KD. It also appears to be partly driven by a program of mine, of wanting to be big and strong physically, so I am very hesitant to experiment with it.

Just wondering where this idea that there's no glycogen in the muscles on a ketogenic diet is coming from. I have never come across this before and, quite frankly, it sounds highly unlikely to me. While it's true that you're not going to be "glycogen loading" by eating tons of carbs, there's always some glycogen in the muscles. To my knowledge, low-carbers are stil using and replenishing glycogen.

 

[nicklebleu]

Re: Ketogenic Diet - Path To Transformation?

Thanks for your feedback, Gertrudes and Megan,

I clearly need to change something, this much is clear. I will go away from zero-carbs for some time, while still maintaining ketosis. I will also up some of my supplements (choline bitartrate, iodine, magnesium and trace minerals, niacin). I'll be away for a while but when I am back home mid-Feb of next year I'll do another sample and see how thing are. Meanwhile I'll do more research ...

I'll keep you posted about what I find out.

 

[aragorn]

Re: Ketogenic Diet - Path To Transformation?

Thanks for your feedback, Gertrudes and Megan,

I clearly need to change something, this much is clear. I will go away from zero-carbs for some time, while still maintaining ketosis. I will also up some of my supplements (choline bitartrate, iodine, magnesium and trace minerals, niacin). I'll be away for a while but when I am back home mid-Feb of next year I'll do another sample and see how thing are. Meanwhile I'll do more research ...

I'll keep you posted about what I find out.

Fwiw, I also had high cholesterol levels at one point following the KD. I got my levels checked ca 4 months after starting the diet, and at that point they were quite high. I took another test 5 months later, and the levels had gone down significantly.

As some suggest, it may be that the body momentarily produces more cholesterol in order to repair things. Reading your posts, I'm wondering if you're doing things (diet, training) too intensively? Maybe your body is in "stress mode"?

 

[nicklebleu]

Re: Ketogenic Diet - Path To Transformation?

Thanks for your feedback, Gertrudes and Megan,

I clearly need to change something, this much is clear. I will go away from zero-carbs for some time, while still maintaining ketosis. I will also up some of my supplements (choline bitartrate, iodine, magnesium and trace minerals, niacin). I'll be away for a while but when I am back home mid-Feb of next year I'll do another sample and see how thing are. Meanwhile I'll do more research ...

I'll keep you posted about what I find out.

Fwiw, I also had high cholesterol levels at one point following the KD. I got my levels checked ca 4 months after starting the diet, and at that point they were quite high. I took another test 5 months later, and the levels had gone down significantly.

As some suggest, it may be that the body momentarily produces more cholesterol in order to repair things. Reading your posts, I'm wondering if you're doing things (diet, training) too intensively? Maybe your body is in "stress mode"?

Hi Aragorn,

This thought has crossed my mind too ...

Maybe I need to cut back on exercise a bit - although I only have been doing the 30 min excentric exercise routine every 2 - 3 days and one HIIT every 7 - 10 days, but my body has been a bit sore lately. Diet-wise the only thing that I can think of at the moment is to up the carbs a tad ...

 

[Carl]

Re: Ketogenic Diet - Path To Transformation?

Just wondering where this idea that there's no glycogen in the muscles on a ketogenic diet is coming from. I have never come across this before and, quite frankly, it sounds highly unlikely to me. While it's true that you're not going to be "glycogen loading" by eating tons of carbs, there's always some glycogen in the muscles. To my knowledge, low-carbers are stil using and replenishing glycogen.

I did not actually mean to say there's no glycogen, just that the totally overwhelming consensus in the weight lifting community is that without glycogen loading you can't just get stronger and stronger every workout.

I've understood for a while why the keto diet is obviously better for endurance exercise, but I've still been listening to this stuff about some carbs being necessary for heavy weight training. However this does not sound right, and probably the reason that no already-trained (that I have found) has ever claimed to get stronger on ketosis is they did not do it long enough. Even 1-2 months does not seem to cut it, as Jimmy's experiment has shown.

Either way I'll be sticking with straight keto for the vast benefits it has in all areas of life, this is just one little 'obsession' of mine that I need to get rid of.

 

[Nathan]

Re: Ketogenic Diet - Path To Transformation?

I've understood for a while why the keto diet is obviously better for endurance exercise, but I've still been listening to this stuff about some carbs being necessary for heavy weight training. However this does not sound right, and probably the reason that no already-trained (that I have found) has ever claimed to get stronger on ketosis is they did not do it long enough. Even 1-2 months does not seem to cut it, as Jimmy's experiment has shown.

Either way I'll be sticking with straight keto for the vast benefits it has in all areas of life, this is just one little 'obsession' of mine that I need to get rid of.

I hear you, Carlise. I believed for a decade that I needed to load up on carbs for energy pre-workout. Now, given our discussions and experiments with this ketogenic diet, I am no longer convinced we need carbs at all to gain additional muscle mass. The liver is going to keep its glycogen stores steady. It is the emergency supply for the body, especially the brain. Meanwhile, your muscle glycogen will be used locally in whatever muscle you exercise.

The way I see it, our body will adapt to any given situation. If your body needs to be stronger and lift more to accommodate your regular activities (whether this is building a shelter in the wilderness or resistance exercise in the comfort of your home), then your body should be able to adapt and grow muscles according to the activity, regardless of whether you're eating carbs or not.

Obviously there are limits genetically. Some people will always be leaner than others. I know some people who only need to look at weights and they'll grow muscle! But you can still operate within your genetic restraints and your body should be smart enough to adapt and cope. Not that I'm suggesting we hurl around ridiculous weights and risk injury! But as long as your body perceives a need to adapt and you are feeding it fuel that it can use (plenty of fat and enough protein) then that should be all it needs.

That's what makes sense to me, but we really can't evaluate this properly until we've been at it for a few months. I can tell you this though, I've noticed better muscle growth over the last month than I ever have on a fancy array of protein shakes and high protein high carb diets in my early 20s. (I exercise daily for an intense 20-30 minute session, nothing too extreme.)

 

[dugdeep]

Re: Ketogenic Diet - Path To Transformation?

I've understood for a while why the keto diet is obviously better for endurance exercise, but I've still been listening to this stuff about some carbs being necessary for heavy weight training. However this does not sound right, and probably the reason that no already-trained (that I have found) has ever claimed to get stronger on ketosis is they did not do it long enough. Even 1-2 months does not seem to cut it, as Jimmy's experiment has shown.

Either way I'll be sticking with straight keto for the vast benefits it has in all areas of life, this is just one little 'obsession' of mine that I need to get rid of.

I hear you, Carlise. I believed for a decade that I needed to load up on carbs for energy pre-workout. Now, given our discussions and experiments with this ketogenic diet, I am no longer convinced we need carbs at all to gain additional muscle mass. The liver is going to keep its glycogen stores steady. It is the emergency supply for the body, especially the brain. Meanwhile, your muscle glycogen will be used locally in whatever muscle you exercise.

The way I see it, our body will adapt to any given situation. If your body needs to be stronger and lift more to accommodate your regular activities (whether this is building a shelter in the wilderness or resistance exercise in the comfort of your home), then your body should be able to adapt and grow muscles according to the activity, regardless of whether you're eating carbs or not.

Obviously there are limits genetically. Some people will always be leaner than others. I know some people who only need to look at weights and they'll grow muscle! But you can still operate within your genetic restraints and your body should be smart enough to adapt and cope. Not that I'm suggesting we hurl around ridiculous weights and risk injury! But as long as your body perceives a need to adapt and you are feeding it fuel that it can use (plenty of fat and enough protein) then that should be all it needs.

That's what makes sense to me, but we really can't evaluate this properly until we've been at it for a few months. I can tell you this though, I've noticed better muscle growth over the last month than I ever have on a fancy array of protein shakes and high protein high carb diets in my early 20s. (I exercise daily for an intense 20-30 minute session, nothing too extreme.)

I think there's a LOT of misconceptions in the weight-training community about health and nutrition in general, let alone specifically the ketogenic diet, at least from what little I've read of it. Volek and Phinney have done a few studies to challenge some of the existing preconceptions about ketosis and exercise (the cyclist study comes to mind), but the misconceptions continue. Even within the paleo community I read all the time "I'm upping my carbs because I've started to increase my physical activity," despite the fact that it's really not needed.

Laura posted this guy recently who seems to be all about low-carb muscle building. However, since he appears to be eating protein ad libitum, he may still be a sugar-burner. Finding a body-builder who restricts protein, I imagine, would be quite a challenge since the protein myth is so prevalent in any physical activity circles.

 

[nicklebleu]

Re: Ketogenic Diet - Path To Transformation?

Strange, the last post by faaax has somehow disappeared ... anyway, thanks for the link.

Found this, which might help me a bit further (maybe this was one of the papers Psyche referred to):

The Relationship Between Serum Lipid Profile and Selected Trace Elements for Adult Men in Mosul City


Osama M. Al-Sabaawy*

DOI 10.5001/omj.2012.74

Department of Biochemistry, Nineveh College of Medicine, Mosul University, Mosul, Iraq.

Received: 08 Apr 2012
Accepted 14 Jun 2012

*Address correspondence and reprints request to: Osama M. Al-Sabaawy, Department of Biochemistry, Nineveh College of Medicine, Mosul University, Mosul, Iraq.
E-mail: osama8293@yahoo.com

Al-Sabaawy OM. The Relationship Between Serum Lipid Profile and Selected Trace Elements for Adult Men in Mosul City. Oman Med J 2012 July; 27(4):300-303.

Abstract
Objectives: To evaluate the correlations of the serum concentrations of copper, zinc, and manganese with lipid profile parameters of adult men in Mosul City, Iraq.

Methods: The study included 51 apparently healthy adult men as a control group aged 34-62 years (group 1), and 31 hyperlipidemic patients aged 37-60 years (group 2). Trace elements copper, zinc and manganese were determined using atomic absorption spectrometry. Concentrations of total cholesterol, triglyceride and high density lipoprotein cholesterol were determined using enzymatic method. Indirect serum concentration of low-density lipoprotein cholesterol were calculated via the Friedewald formula. Data were evaluated as mean and standard deviation by analysis of variance (ANOVA) and t-test.

Results: The results indicated that there is a significant lower level of serum zinc in hyperlipidemic patients compared with the control group, while copper and manganese showed no significant differences between the two groups. A significant negative correlation was found between serum zinc and total cholesterol, low-density lipoprotein cholesterol, triglyceride and low/high-density lipoprotein cholesterol ratio; while a significant positive correlation was found between serum zinc and high density lipoprotein cholesterol. In addition, a significant positive correlation between copper and triglyceride existed in the patient group, while the control group showed no such correlation.

Conclusion: Hyperlipidemia may possibly be related to a decrease in the level of serum zinc in hyperlipidemic adult men. The data also supports the concept that zinc supplementation might be useful in improving metabolic complications in subjects with hyperlipidemia.

I will keep researching this topic and report back ...

 

[beetlemaniac]

Re: Ketogenic Diet - Path To Transformation?

Thanks for your feedback, Gertrudes and Megan,

I clearly need to change something, this much is clear. I will go away from zero-carbs for some time, while still maintaining ketosis. I will also up some of my supplements (choline bitartrate, iodine, magnesium and trace minerals, niacin). I'll be away for a while but when I am back home mid-Feb of next year I'll do another sample and see how thing are. Meanwhile I'll do more research ...

I'll keep you posted about what I find out.

Fwiw, I also had high cholesterol levels at one point following the KD. I got my levels checked ca 4 months after starting the diet, and at that point they were quite high. I took another test 5 months later, and the levels had gone down significantly.

As some suggest, it may be that the body momentarily produces more cholesterol in order to repair things. Reading your posts, I'm wondering if you're doing things (diet, training) too intensively? Maybe your body is in "stress mode"?

Hi Aragorn,

This thought has crossed my mind too ...

Maybe I need to cut back on exercise a bit - although I only have been doing the 30 min excentric exercise routine every 2 - 3 days and one HIIT every 7 - 10 days, but my body has been a bit sore lately. Diet-wise the only thing that I can think of at the moment is to up the carbs a tad ...

Hi nickelbleu. I've also posted on the LWB thread about high cholesterol levels as well. I think the stress together with inflammation theory holds water. How's your sleep if you don't mind me asking? I find sleep to be the hardest thing to fix, since I started the diet, in the sense that it really fluctuates.

I just had a workout today (squats) and I repeatedly felt a sensation of heat spreading throughout my thighs. Actually earlier at work I had the same feeling in my thighs too, and the cold office environment made the feeling even more apparent. Hands were cold as ever though. Just an interesting observation I thought I'd throw in.

Diet wise it's been bone broth all the way. I felt like I was well on to ketoadaptation during the LWB thread until I started losing touch with my protein and carb ratios. Going through the phases again is well, the same old roller coaster ride again I guess...

 

[Gaby]

Re: Ketogenic Diet - Path To Transformation?

The truth is that not everyone responds to caffeine the same way. Some metabolize coffee differently than others. Our detoxification pathways are genetically determined. That is why some people have one cup in the morning and can’t sleep for days and others can have a double espresso after dinner and hit the pillow and fall into deep sleep.

I'm one of those, I used to drink coffee before going to sleep. I started this experiment yesterday, but only the coffee without the dairy. I feel it is too soon for me to consider cream. But having only coffee was interesting. I felt like it was easier to pierce through the fogginess in my mind much easily. I had black coffee before going to bed and as expected was able to fall into deep sleep. Granted, I was working and went to bed at 5 am. But I've noticed others under the same condition just won't get sleepy.

 

[nicklebleu]

Re: Ketogenic Diet - Path To Transformation?

Hi nickelbleu. I've also posted on the LWB thread about high cholesterol levels as well. I think the stress together with inflammation theory holds water. How's your sleep if you don't mind me asking? I find sleep to be the hardest thing to fix, since I started the diet, in the sense that it really fluctuates.

Hi beetlemaniac,

Thanks for your thoughts. I generally sleep very well, except the last two nights, for whatever reasons. But I agree that it is some kind of inflammation that's going on. Either I eat something that I am allergic to, or I miss something. I thought I had eliminated everything I was sensitive to ... There's only one thing left to try: butter (Noooooooooo .....). And I may have underdone it with proteins.

There are some suggestions in the medical literature that protein-deficient starving and refeeding with fat can cause high lipid profiles. Maybe I have just overdone it with being in ketosis and IF at the same time - maybe that is a bad combo altogether in the long run. Anyway, have stopped IF the way I did it, now only skipping lunches.

 

[nicklebleu]

Re: Ketogenic Diet - Path To Transformation?

Found another interesting article on the link between niacin and beta-hydroxybutyrate (BOHB), the ketone body ...

Source: British Journal of Pharmacology (2009), 158, 429–441
Niacin: a re-emerging pharmaceutical for the treatment of dyslipidaemia

b-Hydroxybutyrate

The fact that the plasma concentrations required to elicit effects at HM74A (niacin receptor) are far higher than those achieved physiologically indicated that niacin was unlikely to be the endogenous ligand, and the receptor remained an orphan until Taggart et al. (2005) identified b-hydroxybutyrate as the likely candidate. b-hydroxybutyrate is a small water-soluble carboxylic acid, released into the blood by the liver following fatty acid b-oxidation and was shown to bind and fully activate HM74A at plasma concentrations well within the range that could be achieved under certain circumstances such as fasting, when it is used as an alternative energy source. It is also produced in insulin-deficient states where glucose cannot be used as the primary energy source, and is one of three ketone bodies produced by the liver (the others being acetone and acetoacetate). Interestingly, it has antilipolytic effects that are not shared by the others. This suppression of adipocyte lipolysis decreases the availability of serum precursors for hepatic ketogenesis, thus limiting ketogenesis, having the combined effects of protecting against potentially fatal ketoacidosis and ensuring that fat stores are used efficiently. There are, however, some differences in the effects elicited by b-hydroxybutyrate when compared with niacin, particularly with regard to glucose metabolism. There is considerable evidence to indicate that niacin can have apparently undesirable effects on glucose metabolism (Poynten et al., 2003; Chang et al., 2006; Vittone et al., 2007) – it has been associated with a loss of glycaemic control in type 2 diabetic patients, but also with impairment of glucose tolerance in non-diabetic individuals. As a result, its use for treating dyslipidaemias linked with failed insulin signalling has been questioned, although clinical trials have indicated that the overall effect of niacin treatment in patients suffering from either type 2 diabetes or the metabolic syndrome is favourable (Grundy etal., 2002).The effect of niacin on insulin sensitivity appears to be related to the ‘rebound’ in plasma non-esterified fatty acids observed following the acute drop observed immediately after treatment. The elevation in plasma non-esterified fatty acids is a physiological burden equivalent to that seen in obese insulin-resistant individuals. In contrast to niacin, b-hydroxybutyrate has been shown to have a potentially beneficial effect with regard to insulin resistance and impaired glucose tolerance. Green et al. (1984) demonstrated that this ketone was able to enhance insulin sensitivity (and increase binding to the insulin receptor) when insulin concentrations were sub-maximal. Whether this has any physiological rel- evance remains unclear – type 2 diabetes is almost invariably accompanied by hyperinsulinaemia, and therefore insulin concentrations are unlikely to be sub-maximal.

This may indicate, that adding niacin to a ketogenic diet may not achieve much ...