Ketogenic Diet - Powerful Dietary Strategy for Certain Conditions

[SeekinTruth]

Re: Ketogenic Diet - Path To Transformation?

@Toda22

Just letting you know that, from my experience, not feeling hungry (like ever) is normal when in deep nutritional ketosis. I haven't felt hungry for a few years now. I just get some appetite when I sit down to eat - some barbecued pork chops or other yummy keto meal, and suddenly I want to eat. But if I didn't HAVE to eat (usually two meals a day - breakfast and dinner and a fatty "snack" in between), I never get the feeling of hunger, i.e. it's time to eat something. Since being in ketosis, it seems I would have to go quite a long time without eating for my body to send that hunger signal (don't know how long that would be as I've actually almost forgotten what it feels like to be hungry). FWIW.

And regarding your question about butter, good quality, grass-fed butter is usually quite yellow - the yellower, the better - as Gaby said, it means it's got lots of vitamin K2. Hope this helps.

 

[Toda22]

Re: Ketogenic Diet - Path To Transformation?

Have forgotten to mention cold legs and very cold hands one month long during fifth month since beginning of diet changes.

Talked today with an older man, he works over 30 years in milk industry. He told me that butter colour depends from eventually added colorant, sorts of grass, from the cow and also if mistakes have been made during butter production, then butter has less yellow colour.

Thank you all for responses. Much appreciated and great help!

Gaby, good luck with collecting keto data and with your book!

 

[hlat]

Re: Ketogenic Diet - Path To Transformation?

Supermarket butter can be easily converted to ghee. Just melt it slowly in a pot and let the solids sink to the bottom and carefully pour off the pure fat. Or you can let it sit a bit to solidify and then scoop it into a jar and leave the milk solids in the bottom of the pan.

I tried it today, and it was super easy. I just put 3 sticks of butter in a pot, heated it until it was all melted, and then poured all of it in a tall glass cup. A couple hours later, the solids had formed a layer at the very bottom and very top of the cup. I used a spoon to scoop out the top layer, and then I poured the ghee into a glass container. There was a little bit of ghee left above the bottom layer that was too hard to get, so I had to throw that away. The 3 sticks were 1.5 cups of butter, and I ended up with 1.25 cups of ghee.

 

[Kamino]

Re: Ketogenic Diet - Path To Transformation?

@Toda22

Just letting you know that, from my experience, not feeling hungry (like ever) is normal when in deep nutritional ketosis. I haven't felt hungry for a few years now. I just get some appetite when I sit down to eat - some barbecued pork chops or other yummy keto meal, and suddenly I want to eat. But if I didn't HAVE to eat (usually two meals a day - breakfast and dinner and a fatty "snack" in between), I never get the feeling of hunger, i.e. it's time to eat something. Since being in ketosis, it seems I would have to go quite a long time without eating for my body to send that hunger signal (don't know how long that would be as I've actually almost forgotten what it feels like to be hungry). FWIW.

And regarding your question about butter, good quality, grass-fed butter is usually quite yellow - the yellower, the better - as Gaby said, it means it's got lots of vitamin K2. Hope this helps.

Hi SeekinTruth, thanks for sharing. I experience quite the same about the hunger. Mostly I have to remind myself on eating something, as I'm so focused on doing things...
I stopped the milk+products a few years ago, then thanks to your research the grains. The sugar gravings slowly disappeared, I was substituting with xylit at the beginning, but now I just lost the appetite in sweet things, be it cakes or fruits.
Making bone broth was a real revelation as well. Nevertheless I think I made a huge mistake in not "sacrificing" coffee earlier. I just loved it, was totally addicted. I drank over ten cups a day but after the gluten was eliminated, the coffee became too stimulating, I wasn't thinking very well and felt agitated. I knew about the insulin connection, but that didn't stop me

 

[fabric]

Re: Ketogenic Diet - Path To Transformation?

... reading this forum I don't see evidence on this 25g-of-protein-per-meal-necessity.

Let me explain where the 25 - 30g protein-per-meal restriction comes from. In fact, if you google "daily protein requirement" you will get vastly digressing opinions. So who is right? As so very often in science, the correct answer is "it depends".

[...]

In another article, Layman says the following:

On a daily basis, Dr. Layman says that the total daily amount of protein eaten is not as important as ensuring that you get at least 30 grams of protein at each meal (about 4.5 ounces of meat, fish, poultry, or a scoop or two of whey protein powder) to maximize leucine availability. It is especially important to eat 30 grams of protein at breakfast, because this also sets the stage for reduced hunger the rest of the day.

Thanks for the post nicklebleu, very informative. I did notice that for myself, when I ate 3 or less ounces of protein even when I added extra fat, I would get hungry around noon. When I eat 4-5 oz I'm not hungry all day. I know that one of the other concerns regarding protein levels was that too much would take you out of ketosis. I did measure ketones for awhile and was still in ketosis even on days when I'd have 5 or 6oz of protein and would still be in ketosis. So I'm not entirely sure about the whole getting kicked out of ketosis thing if you go slightly over. There is evidence that you can still go out if it but seems like its a higher threshold for some people

While checking the links you posted I came across some links:

http://www.ketotic.org/2014/01/how-much-protein-is-enough.html

It seems, from clinical claims and numerous anecdotes, that protein intake has to be below some threshold for ketogenesis to continue, all else being equal. (Conditions are rarely equal: the effects of fat intake, calorie intake, the profile of amino acids in your diet, the type of fat in your diet, exercise, and frequency of eating also matter!)

It is commonly assumed that excess protein gets immediately turned into glucose by gluconeogenesis. However, we've shown in a series of articles (part 1, part 2, part 3, part 4) that such a mechanism is highly unlikely — excess protein does not just get immediately turned into glucose.

The evidence points to gluconeogenesis being driven by demand for glucose, not supply of protein.

However, it does appear that above a certain level of protein intake ketogenesis declines. So regardless of mechanism, as ketogenic dieters, we probably still need to limit protein.

It's not clear how much is too much.

But how much is enough? It is important not to turn a healthy, ketogenic diet into an unhealthy starvation diet! In this article we review some answers to this question, and some unanswered questions.

[...]

http://www.ketotic.org/2013/02/protein-ketogenesis-and-glucose.html

Despite all the evidence we have brought to bear suggesting that increased protein does not increase GNG, there is an important line of argument that does support the idea that increased protein increases GNG. Although the data is indirect, and some of it is poorly documented, it is compelling.

This supporting argument is the relationship between protein and glucose oxidation (the use of glucose as fuel). As we mentioned in our last post, the rate of GNG is not what we really care about as keto dieters.

What we want to know is whether excess protein leads to using a higher total amount of glucose as fuel. The amount of glucose oxidation matters, because the benefits we expect to gain from a keto diet are probably a result of using ketones for fuel instead of glucose whenever we can.

In Brief

Excess protein probably results in lower ketone levels. Although there is a paucity of hard clinical evidence, there are several reasons to believe this is true.
There appears to be an inverse relationship between ketone levels and glucose oxidation.
Therefore, increasing protein probably increases glucose oxidation.

If so, then

Eating more protein would reduce the benefits of a ketogenic diet, by making it less ketogenic, and increasing glucose oxidation.
This would need to be reconciled with the combined evidence that I/G appears to be the main determinant of ketogenesis, and yet doesn't appear to change in keto dieters eating protein.

As always, we'd like to see experimental confirmation of these ideas instead of just relying on the "chains of plausible mechanism" outlined here. Chains of plausible mechanism can be broken by a single weak link, or by other effects that we didn't take into account.

Also found this very interesting, as it could explain why I can process more protein and maintain ketosis, especially now that I'm doing crossfit (higher energy expenditures):

http://caloriesproper.com/?p=4052

Negative energy balance promotes ketosis even with relatively high protein intake. Phinney showed this in obese patients in 1980. He fed them a very low calorie diet for 6 weeks; 50% of the calories came from protein, the rest fat. This amounted to ~76 g/d or ~1.2 g/kg of their “ideal body weight.” It was, however, a rather severe caloric restriction.

They lost ~22 pounds; two-thirds of it was fat mass. Muscle glycogen plummeted from 1.53 to 1.04 mg/100 g… and further testing confirmed they were ketoadapted: glycogen wasn’t used during an endurance exercise test and performance was unhindered <– that is the essence of ketoadaptation.

RQ after exercise was 0.76 on the high carb diet and 0.66 after keto <– that is the proof of ketoadaptation. They were oxidizing 110% fat (& fat-derived fuels) and it was working just as good as glycogen… or better: time to exhaustion increased from 168 minutes to 249 minutes. VO2max also increased, albeit slightly (and only relative to LBM), from 43.6 to 48.8 mg/kg LBM*min.

All of this despite getting ~50% of their calories from protein… one could speculate that these beneficial effects might have been at least partially attributed to getting adequate protein (although I’d say 76 grams is still too low for such a large caloric restriction).

Prior to ketogenic dieting, beta-hydroxybutyrate (bHB) levels were negligible ~0.06 mM. Exercise promotes ketosis even in weight-stable carboholics. In this case, exercise increased bHB to 0.71 mM.

Ketogenic dieters getting 50% of their calories from protein? bHB = 2.73 mM <– that’s robust. Negative. Energy. Balance.

 

[nicklebleu]

Re: Ketogenic Diet - Path To Transformation?

Thanks, fabric for this article, interesting stuff - a good reminder that we don't know all ins and outs of ketogenic diet yet.

What I have personally noted is that going above around 1g/kg of protein reduces my degree of ketosis too, as measured by BOHB. We are assuming that his happens through gluconeogenesis, but there may be other mechanisms inivolved.

The other problem is, as outlined in my last post, that EVEN if you stay in ketosis, if you start triggering your mTOR system and hence your leptin, this may be detrimental on the long run, but may be good, if you want to loose some weight for a brief period of time.

 

[dugdeep]

Re: Ketogenic Diet - Path To Transformation?

The other problem is, as outlined in my last post, that EVEN if you stay in ketosis, if you start triggering your mTOR system and hence your leptin, this may be detrimental on the long run, but may be good, if you want to loose some weight for a brief period of time.

Thanks nicklebleu and fabric for your recent posts.

What I've bolded above seems to run counter to my own experience. When I was being strict about only getting 25g of protein per meal, I was dropping weight like crazy (which was OK, since I could stand to lose it!). It was at the point where people were looking at me funny and asking not so subtle questions around eating disorders Once I eased up on the protein restriction some, going back to 4 or 5 oz of meat per meal, I started gaining weight back again. Now I'm back to around where I started; about 185 lbs, having been down to 160 lbs.

So, if mTOR activation is good for losing weight, why was I gaining when eating a higher protein ratio and losing like crazy when being strict about protein restriction? Could it be that mTOR is good for regulating weight, leading fat loss (in those who need it) and muscle gain?

 

[Ollie]

Re: Ketogenic Diet - Path To Transformation?

I seem to recall that it was Nora Gedgaudas that suggested a limit of 25g protein per meal, as any excess would be turned into carbohydrate. Hence, a possible reason for gaining weight when eating 'excess' protein. And, mTOR is good for regulating weight, leading fat loss (in those who need it) and muscle gain.

This may help, or not.

 

[nicklebleu]

Re: Ketogenic Diet - Path To Transformation?

The other problem is, as outlined in my last post, that EVEN if you stay in ketosis, if you start triggering your mTOR system and hence your leptin, this may be detrimental on the long run, but may be good, if you want to loose some weight for a brief period of time.

Thanks nicklebleu and fabric for your recent posts.

What I've bolded above seems to run counter to my own experience. When I was being strict about only getting 25g of protein per meal, I was dropping weight like crazy (which was OK, since I could stand to lose it!). It was at the point where people were looking at me funny and asking not so subtle questions around eating disorders Once I eased up on the protein restriction some, going back to 4 or 5 oz of meat per meal, I started gaining weight back again. Now I'm back to around where I started; about 185 lbs, having been down to 160 lbs.

So, if mTOR activation is good for losing weight, why was I gaining when eating a higher protein ratio and losing like crazy when being strict about protein restriction? Could it be that mTOR is good for regulating weight, leading fat loss (in those who need it) and muscle gain?

Frankly, this has been my experience too, but the above quote comes from Volek, who is one of the foremost researchers on metabolism (the one who co-authored The Art and Science of Low-carb Living). In these articles quoted in my recent post, there was also one which questioned that gluconeogenesis is much of a factor in higher protein intake and that other factors play a more important role.

I think the bottom line is that things are still not fully understood, as much of this research has only come out in the last few years, and many details have yet to be worked out.

 

[fabric]

Re: Ketogenic Diet - Path To Transformation?

I imagine that there's also quite a bit of variability depending a person's body (dna, hormones etc) on how we handle protein and ketosis. Sort of like how some people can't eat more than 10g of carbs and get knocked out of ketosis while some can tolerate up to 50g or more. It would be interesting know if there's a relationship between the two as I can also get away with a carb heavy day (for me it's around 40g or 50g) and not be totally out (my ketone levels do drop though).

 

[ScioAgapeOmnis]

Re: Ketogenic Diet - Path To Transformation?

I've been experimenting with High Intensity Training lately, and I'm reading a good book on the subject called "Body by Science" by Doug Mcguff. I found it to be a very convincing scientific explication of muscle physiology, metabolic and cardiovascular effects of different types of training, and the the types of exercises that most efficiently stimulate muscle strength, growth, and strengthen your cardiovascular system as well. Here are the take aways for anyone interested in trying the technique:

We have 2 types of muscle Fibers: Type I (slow twitch) and Type II (fast twitch). Type I is all endurance and used in every day activities, and cannot grow or strengthen much. Type II are the only ones that can grow and strengthen, and there's about 20+ different fibers under that umbrella but usually they're grouped as Type IIa, Type IIb, Type IIx for simplicity. The idea of proper HIT is to stimulate all of the Type II fibers in one set thereby maximizing our potential. Our genetics determine how many fibers of each type we have (the ratios), some people will have more Type I, others more Type II, and even within the Type II umbrella the ratio of which specific fibers dominate is determined genetically, and can be somewhat influenced by our activities during childhood/adolescence, but seem to be pretty much set once we reach a certain age. And that seems to be why some people are naturally better at different things - some more suited for endurance activities, some more suited for strength activities, and others fall somewhere in between.

Type II fibers get stimulated when you're lifting 50% to 70% of your 1-rep max (so 50% to 70% of your maximum possible effort) and above (there's some variance in different studies as far as what % of effort starts kicking your Type II fibers into gear, some showing them activating at even 30%, others at 70%, and perhaps it has to do with how the exercise is performed, and also possibly genetics. Either way, the more effort, the more Type II fibers are recruited, and at maximum 100% effort, the very strongest fibers get recruited and of course all fibers "below" them.

Type I fibers are the least metabolically expensive and your body prefers to use them as much as it can get away doing so, and also recover faster than anything else and fatigue slower than anything else. After that you get Type IIa, then Type IIb, and Type IIx - progressively more expensive metabolically and also increasing the recovery time as you move up, and the rate at which they fatigue. So if one exercises with very heavy weight close to your maximum effort, for example, you'll be activating all the fibers, but the strongest fibers will exhaust quickly, rendering you unable to move that weight anymore after only a few reps, while the other fibers are not yet exhausted but aren't strong enough to keep lifting that weight, and so not all fibers got a good workout. The idea behind HIT is to completely fatigue/exhaust all the Type II fibers.

The way that's done is simply lifting a weight that's 50% to 70% of your 1-rep max or so, very slowly (5 seconds up, 5 seconds down, or even slower if possible), which activates your Type IIa first, but as you continue with the set, they get exhausted which forces activation of Type IIb, and finally towards the last few (miserably difficult) reps of that set, at which point you're giving your 100% effort just to keep moving that weight, you're hitting your Type IIx, and so end up exhausting all the Type II fibers sequentially. If the weight is too light, you may never reach Type IIx because the weaker fibers have enough time to recover in the middle of the set. If the weight is too heavy or you're lifting it explosively (which adds extra load due to acceleration), you're activating Type IIx or Type IIb right away, and those get exhausted before the Type IIa get a chance to fatigue as well. The trick is to exhaust all of them.

If this is done correctly, 1 set is all you really need to fully fatigue all the Type II fibers, tho if the level of intensity is too much towards the end of the set, it may be easier to go almost to failure but do 2 sets of each exercise.

The types of exercise are easy to remember, Doug calls them "the big 5":
Horizontal pull (row exercise)
Horizontal push (bench-press with a barbell or with dumbells for example)
Vertical pull (pull-ups or chin-ups for example)
Vertical push (military press)
Squats (and/or deadlifts).

So do those for 1 or 2 sets to absolute failure (push through the burn til you just can't physically lift the weight anymore, and then keep pushing for a while longer anyway), very slowly (3-5+ seconds lifting the weight, 3-5+ seconds to descend it back, and do each rep like that), and try not to rest much at all between the different exercises, or at least as little as possible. Give at least a full week of recovery before training again. This will result in cardiovascular adaptations (apparently better than jogging for hours would ever do), metabolic improvements, strength and size gains, and other benefits of exercise in general. Not to mention the mitochondrial DNA activation, especially if combined with intermittent fasting and cold showers.

The book uses many studies to support it's conclusions as well as personal experience of all the authors, body builders, and other trainers who have applied this training to themselves and their clients. What I like about it is that it gives maximum benefits from about 15-30 minutes a week of work, and so saves time from having to go to the gym for several times a day for an hour or more. I hope this is helpful.

 

[Kenny McCormick]

Re: Ketogenic Diet - Path To Transformation?

The other problem is, as outlined in my last post, that EVEN if you stay in ketosis, if you start triggering your mTOR system and hence your leptin, this may be detrimental on the long run, but may be good, if you want to loose some weight for a brief period of time.

Thanks nicklebleu and fabric for your recent posts.

When I was being strict about only getting 25g of protein per meal, I was dropping weight like crazy (which was OK, since I could stand to lose it!). It was at the point where people were looking at me funny and asking not so subtle questions around eating disorders Once I eased up on the protein restriction some, going back to 4 or 5 oz of meat per meal, I started gaining weight back again.

I have some problems understanding above quote - since proteins are 12-25% of the meat, and 1 oz=28 g, so when you were consuming 4-5 oz of meat, you were consuming 14-28g of protein depending on meat. In other words, consuming 4-5 oz of meat you were consiming barely 25 g of proteins. What else have you eaten?

 

[fabric]

Re: Ketogenic Diet - Path To Transformation?

The other problem is, as outlined in my last post, that EVEN if you stay in ketosis, if you start triggering your mTOR system and hence your leptin, this may be detrimental on the long run, but may be good, if you want to loose some weight for a brief period of time.

Thanks nicklebleu and fabric for your recent posts.

When I was being strict about only getting 25g of protein per meal, I was dropping weight like crazy (which was OK, since I could stand to lose it!). It was at the point where people were looking at me funny and asking not so subtle questions around eating disorders Once I eased up on the protein restriction some, going back to 4 or 5 oz of meat per meal, I started gaining weight back again.

I have some problems understanding above quote - since proteins are 12-25% of the meat, and 1 oz=28 g, so when you were consuming 4-5 oz of meat, you were consuming 14-28g of protein depending on meat. In other words, consuming 4-5 oz of meat you were consiming barely 25 g of proteins. What else have you eaten?

I guess that the amount can vary as there are some meats that have a lower content per weight. Typically a 1 oz of meat has 7g of protein. So a 3oz serving would have around 21g of protein. So if you had a 4 or 5 oz portion that would be 28 - 35g which is over the 25g mark that Nora talks about in her book as the limit per meal. I think mainly for ease of use we just use that number for any meat that we are eating.

As for the daily limit:

http://www.ketogenic-diet-resource.com/daily-protein-requirement.html (this is also from nicklebleu's earlier post)

Let’s say a person weighs 150 pounds and has a lean body mass of 100 pounds. To calculate average optimal protein intake, we set the lower end of the range at 1.0 g/kg/LBM and the higher end at 1.5 g/kg/LBM. Taking into account that dividing pounds by 2.2 = kilograms, the math looks like this:


100 pounds LBM/2.2 = 45 kilograms LBM
Multiply 45 x 1 = 45 grams of protein
Multiply 45 x 1.5 = 67.5 grams of protein

So the average optimal protein intake range for a person with 100 pounds of lean body mass would be 45-68 grams per day.

However, since most people have no idea what their actual lean body mass is, often these equations are based on ideal body weight, or what most weight calculators would say you should weigh for your height.

How does this translate into food? Most animal protein sources have about 7 grams of protein per ounce, so this example range works out to range of about 6.5 ounces – 9.7 ounces of meat, fish or poultry each day. (Note = there are 28 grams in an ounce; the balance of grams are mostly from fat and water.)

 

[cubbex]

Re: Ketogenic Diet - Path To Transformation?

So, in summary, stimulating your mTOR might be beneficial in the short run (muscle buildup, fat loss), but it might be detrimental on the long run by decreasing longevity. It's the same thing as is the case with insulin - if you chronically stimulate the insulin system, you wear it down and chronic illness follows (metabolic syndrome, cancers etc.). This same logic applies to the mTOR pathway (via leptin) as well.

I hope this clarifies where the 25-30g per meal restriction idea comes from.

I cannot be more thankful for this nickle. Couldn't approach the idea of protein synthesis and body building.

I have a question, for what I understood of this. High protein diet long term seems like a bad idea, but it says you can activate the system by free amino acids. They sell supplementation with free aminos, separated from the protein supplements. Does using amino supplementation long term, still falls into the effects of a high protein diet in a long term period.

I know twins who are old and have a high protein diet, with fat at the bottom of the hierarchy as every high protein diet out there. They are not old, in terms of you can notice in their skin, or the exterior some aging. They look between 27/26 at least, it can be their genetics. What I've noticed is that they suffer from inflammation, they can't exercise freely because they suffer a lot from lower back pains and weakness in there since they were young. Maybe the fasting and calorie control helps them; the effects on the IGF hormone.

 

[nicklebleu]

Re: Ketogenic Diet - Path To Transformation?

So, in summary, stimulating your mTOR might be beneficial in the short run (muscle buildup, fat loss), but it might be detrimental on the long run by decreasing longevity. It's the same thing as is the case with insulin - if you chronically stimulate the insulin system, you wear it down and chronic illness follows (metabolic syndrome, cancers etc.). This same logic applies to the mTOR pathway (via leptin) as well.

I hope this clarifies where the 25-30g per meal restriction idea comes from.

I cannot be more thankful for this nickle. Couldn't approach the idea of protein synthesis and body building.

I have a question, for what I understood of this. High protein diet long term seems like a bad idea, but it says you can activate the system by free amino acids. They sell supplementation with free aminos, separated from the protein supplements. Does using amino supplementation long term, still falls into the effects of a high protein diet in a long term period.

I know twins who are old and have a high protein diet, with fat at the bottom of the hierarchy as every high protein diet out there. They are not old, in terms of you can notice in their skin, or the exterior some aging. They look between 27/26 at least, it can be their genetics. What I've noticed is that they suffer from inflammation, they can't exercise freely because they suffer a lot from lower back pains and weakness in there since they were young. Maybe the fasting and calorie control helps them; the effects on the IGF hormone.

I think it doesn't depend whether you ingest free amino acids or proteins, as proteins are broken up into amino acids when they are absorbed into the body.
Triggering your leptin system is probably not a huge problem, if you do it short term - a bit like triggering your insulin now and again is not a problem. The problem starts, when you consistently trigger the system to the max, because in the long run you will wear the system down (as it is designed as an emergency backup), with insulin sensitivity decreasing (insulin resistance, a.k.a. metabolic syndrome). Increased leptin leads to metabolic syndrome as well through leptin resistance. And BTW, protein trigger both insulin and leptin. Rosedale for instance says that leptin resistance is probably more important in diabetes than insulin resistance. But we don't hear much about leptin resistance, because there are no drugs to treat leptin resistance, contrary to insulin resistance. Fat however doesn't trigger insulin or leptin ...

So their back problems may well stem from insulin resistance, as insulin is a pro-inflammatory hormone.

Hope that answers your question.