Kundalini

[cubbex]

Hi Bricktal,
.....

Thanks a lot jake!!

I have read the comment, elightening indeed. More because of what I thought I had, and maybe I was not as that wrong.

Laura talk about the right man syndrome, and that in some way lead to schizophrenia:

The "dreaming" energy of the emotional center combined with a clever intellect, can produce all kinds of strange experiences that border on literal schizophrenia.

And it looks related to my tendency to schizotypical disorder that it is said is the first step to schizophrenia, haha.... ah....

Whatever thanks for that link, I had that thread on bookmark but have not read it.

 

[Jakesully]

Hi Bricktal,
.....

Thanks a lot jake!!

I have read the comment, elightening indeed. More because of what I thought I had, and maybe I was not as that wrong.

Laura talk about the right man syndrome, and that in some way lead to schizophrenia:

The "dreaming" energy of the emotional center combined with a clever intellect, can produce all kinds of strange experiences that border on literal schizophrenia.

And it looks related to my tendency to schizotypical disorder that it is said is the first step to schizophrenia, haha.... ah....

Whatever thanks for that link, I had that thread on bookmark but have not read it.

Hi Brunauld,

You're welcome.

When you speak of schizophrenia, are you speaking simply in terms of delusions? As in, you don't actually suffer from visual or auditory hallucinations?

Schizophrenia

Schizophrenia is less common than bipolar disorder and is usually first diagnosed in a person’s late teens or early to late 20’s. More men than women receive a diagnosis of schizophrenia, which is characterized by having both hallucinations and delusions. Hallucinations are seeing or hearing things that aren’t there. Delusions are the belief in something that isn’t true. People who have delusions will continue with their delusions even when shown evidence that contradicts the delusion. That’s because, like hallucinations, delusions are “irrational” — the opposite of logic and reason. Since reason doesn’t apply to someone who has a schizophrenic delusion, arguing with it logically gets a person nowhere.

_http://psychcentral.com/lib/2006/the-differences-between-bipolar-disorder-schizophrenia-and-multiple-personality-disorder/

If it's the case that you're speaking of delusions, then I'll admit that everyone is at least slightly schizophrenic. We're all a bit crazy, and that's ok - as long as we're aware of it and have the intent to Work on it.

I think it might be useful for you to isolate specific programs. My understanding of how the Chief Feature and subsequent programs manifest, is that essentially the subsequent programs are coping mechanisms OF the Chief Feature, the ways that it attempts to heal itself by getting what "it" thinks it needs.

Also, I think there can be a tendency, when reading all of these things about the improper workings of the machine, to take on the fear of the hypochondriac, that the worst case scenario applies to us. That is one of "its" reactionary mechanisms. And if you're open to receiving a mirror, I think it would be evidence of self-pity; which is a very common program to have.

 

[cubbex]

Yes I agree in that. Yes I was referring to delusions, I was talking about the right man syndrome tha lies to himself until he becomes like an schizophrenic living in his own world because he thinks he can work alone, etc etc. And so, the real importance to be a member of this network and the FOTCM

And I found fun that it looks a lot like the schizotypal disorder where the person is living in his own ideas and thoughts believing things are not true (lying to himself).

And if you're open to receiving a mirror, I think it would be evidence of self-pity; which is a very common program to have.

Do you mean that receiving mirrors (the real purpose of an esoteric group) is bad??

 

[Crystla24]

I don't know if bricktal is still part of this forum or not. But my entire past in this forum I just recently found to most likely be related to this topic exactly. When I was under this duress, I was not only posting while under this kundalini spell, but really, I just wanted to find out what What the heck was happening to me. Although everyone had excellent advice in retrospect no one was still quite able to tell me what it was. I too, "did not ask for this" to happen, but here I was, over reacting and becoming quite defensive. If anyone wants to see what I'm referring to, the history of any of my past posts are there. After I found recently found that this Kundalini may be what I was experiencing I found a few terms in Wikipedia that may benefit anyone experiencing this. The fist term is Kundalini Syndrome http://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Kundalini_syndrome which basically outlines symptoms that may occur when this Kundalini energy is prematurely enduced by a number of things, one was near death experiences, intensive spiritual contemplation, or extreme life crises. I believe mine was a combination of the latter two and I imagine many people on this forum may be experiencing this exact phenomenon. And the end of the article links to a term "spiritual emergency" http://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Spiritual_crisis I hope anyone experiencing this can come to realize that this is Not a healthy state to be in. Please look into "kundalini syndrome cures".
Unfortunately, I found this info After the fact that I almost destroyed my life completely and was on the verge of committing myself. I am so thankful for this forum and Laura's work, because it may have been the only information that grounded me from this state. I have not posted since Febuary and in my Febuary post I said I was still not in a state to add anything of substance. I took a break completely from My Work (the my being significant to my afformentioned state, cause I believed I could trust My way more so than networking in a healthy manner). And I have made many steps to change my life in the meantime.
Since I just finally found some definitions to something I already took proactive measures to stop, I would like to add more to this thread in the future after I can study the subject more and take the time to write soberly (not possessed with this untrained kundalini energy literally possessing me).
I had experienced extreme delusions of grandeur, extreme dissociation along with Identifying with my surroundings in the manner Gurdjieff warns against.
As I scoured the internet for info on Kundalini, I have come across a website that uses Kundalini as a Necessary medium for Satanic groups. It seems they believe that they can vibrate and channel demons in this frame of mind and they try to harness this powerhouse of energy for Self benefit. Seems to me that this being a path for the evil-magician may be pretty on target. Like I said I would like to spend more time to expand on my thoughts after more, hopefully objective study. One short thought though, one of my posts before I took a break I mentioned that it seemed like this energy was being induced when reading truthful material. Maybe this energy could be used as a tool to recognize that a defense mechanism or "machine" is in play and to take a step back before reacting emotionally. I also wonder if this energy isn't getting blocked somewhere and powering the wrong perspectives that cause the blockage, idk. I don't want to completely slander it if there is a Correct way to practice kundalini.
Anyone seeking to practice this should be aware of extreme danger though! Again, it did almost destroy me. I think the one thing that kept ringing in my head was something Anart told me once that may have been a quote from the C's "it isn't supposed to feel good". That statement would bring be down from manic states and analyse myself. I just came in to see what the forums view was on the topic, but in still taking a mental break. I'd be happy to hear anyone thoughts or answer any questions if I can. Hope everyone is well and I know I'm getting there (I took off to Florida and have taken some major measures to relax, detoxify, and regain control of my life) :D a little bit of the reason I came was just because I was relieved to find out what had happened after all the trouble i caused myself over it. An explanation was more than nice.
P.S. I'm on my phone, sorry for the inconsiderate grammar and run on sentences.

 

[panca kanga]

This is a post to add further warnings to this kundalini thread.

I once knew someone who was convinced they were developing kundalini. He
would `meditate' and experience energy flows rising through his body,
pushing through blocks and ending in blissfull releases in
the crown chakra. Often flinging his arms around and his face grimacing and
body jerking unexpectedly.
At night he was troubled by wet dreams and insomnia.

He became convinced he was making real spiritual progress
yet there was no evidence for it in his daily life. His thinking was rather
black and white and he would get into silly arguments justifying his
points of view.

I must not paint too dark a picture. He was a gentle and kind man, generous and sincere.
In his daily life he was principled and upright. He was a friend.

The kundalini had started with one of those over-powering experiences of timeless
bliss and insight that so many people seem to hope for, and cherish for years after.
This one occurred soon after (or maybe during) his recovery from a break down that he
attributed to pressure of work but there was also some evidence of similar breakdowns in
his family.

I knew him about 6 years later. His story ended with a return of the breakdown,
incurable insomnia and black depression. After about 3 months of no release from
his hell he turned completely to the medical professions drugs. When these showed
no sign of helping he was admitted into a hospital in France for electro-shock
treatment. This did not do anything to help him and he committed suicide by throwing
himself under a train.
It was a tragedy.

You might ask Was it really kundalini? and I can't say. It was his description.
However his uncontrolled actions while meditating seemed similar to those I had seen other
people do when I was in India in the early '70s and so I largely took his word for it.
I did once talk to him about how he was practicing, as far as he was prepared to talk,
and I took the opportunity to say he should change direction, or at the very least
try to find some some spiritual teacher or guide who had experience of what was
happening to him. But at that point he was not yet looking for any help. He was far
too confident in his own abilities and way-overestimated the results he was achieving.

Writing of him now leaves me very sad thinking of what became of him and what he endured
before he died.

 

[Crystla24]

Thank you panka kanga for sharing your story and I'm very sorry you lost a friend to this. I finally called it quits when I feared an institution or death were going to be my last options if I didn't change something and I Did just abandon my life. I feel good about it, but I have seen several people here freaking out in a similar manner. None of which get added to the Baked Noodles section, but all argue that they have found Something that always over powers the voices of reason this group offers. If we can identify these symptoms and show that we have seen what happens to those who practice this that they are doing so unsafely...could save someone's sanity. I'll continue to read and write something but is there a way we can give some of these people support and some kind of rehabilitation advice? Especially if many accidentally fell into this due to life trauma the way it is and never intended practicing kundalini to begin with!
I'm not quite sure how I will approach this more, seeing as how it has become a Sacred Cow of my own. Part of me wants to defend it, and the other part can't deny it has no value at all with experienced professionals. But, anyone lookin into this should do so with extreme caution. Or if they are already doing it, don't let it rule ur life, take a step back and find some kind of balance. I'm sure breathing and grounding excercises would be helpful along with some physical excercise. Introversion seems to be part of why this happens. Scrying and identifying with your surroundings. I think Gurdjieff's excercises in objectivity are excellent. I had wondered why when I read somewhere that some of Gurjieffs student had left because they thought that The Work should be done introspectively, I can possibly see why G held that that was Not the case.

 

[timmyman]

if you ask me briktal is not familiar with the meaning of being in a sleeping state... he seems to take it literally... Just how i understood from all his posts. He seems to think that people actually think hes in the bed sleeping?!

Could be wrong about it though

 

[axj]

panca canga,

I think what you are really describing is someone whose emotional wounding and trauma was brought to the surface very quickly and as such was very difficult for that person to handle. It seems like the real problem was the unhealed trauma and not the meditation experiences he had.

About Kundalini in general:

Honestly, I am not sure in what ways a 'spontaneous' Kundalini can create an illusion. Of course, people tend to think and assume that they are immediately "more advanced" or awakened because of such an experience. So the actual block seems to be the mental assumptions and not the energy experience itself.

Yet Gurdjieff seems to indicate some kind of more direct "illusion though Kundalini" that goes deeper than mere mental blocks or beliefs, something that comes from this organ "kundabuffer". I do not know what kind of illusion he is talking about in this case.

 

[axj]

I decided to look into this whole Kundalini/Kundabuffer question some more. From reading this thread and previous discussions on this topic, it seems like nobody had a clear idea on what exactly Gurdjieff was talking about.

It has been posted before, but I think it is a good idea to look again at what Gurdjieff said about Kundalini:

"In so-called 'occult' literature you have probably met with the expression 'Kundalini,' 'the fire of Kundalini,' or the 'serpent of Kundalini.' This expression is often used to designate some kind of strange force which is present in man and which can be awakened. But none of the known theories gives the right explanation of the force of Kundalini. Sometimes it is connected with sex, with sex energy, that is with the idea of the possibility of using sex energy for other purposes. This latter is entirely wrong because Kundalini can be in anything.

And above all, Kundalini is not anything desirable or useful for man's development. It is very curious how these occultists have got hold of the word from somewhere but have completely altered its meaning and from a very dangerous and terrible thing have made something to be hoped for and to be awaited as some blessing.

In reality Kundalini is the power of imagination, the power of fantasy, which takes the place of a real function. When a man dreams instead of acting, when his dreams take the place of reality, when a man imagines himself to be an eagle, a lion, or a magician, it is the force of Kundalini acting in him. Kundalini can act in all centers and with its help all the centers can be satisfied with the imaginary instead of the real. A sheep which considers itself a lion or a magician lives under the power of Kundalini.

Kundalini is a force put into men in order to keep them in their present state. If men could really see their true position and could understand all the horror of it, they would be unable to remain where they are even for one second. They would begin to seek a way out and they would quickly find it, because there is a way out; but men fail to see it simply because they are hypnotized. Kundalini is the force that keeps them in a hypnotic state. 'To awaken' for man means to be 'dehypnotized.' In this lies the chief difficulty and in this also lies the guarantee of its possibility, for there is no organic reason for sleep and man can awaken."

From: 'In Search Of The Miraculous' by P.D.Ouspensky

I think that we need to keep in mind that Gurdjieff is criticizing a very specific definition of 'Kundalini' - the one that was prevalent among occultists in the first half of the 20th century.

Specifically, he talks about "how these occultists have got hold of the word from somewhere but have completely altered its meaning".

Now, this "getting hold of the word somewhere" does not sound like he is talking about the actual traditions in India where the word Kundalini comes from.

What I do not understand is why he puts the label 'Kundalini' on what he describes as the "power of fantasy and illusion, which can replace a true function".

So maybe there is some connection between illusion and the Kundalini energy. Yet from what I have read so far, Gurdjieff seems to be literally the only one talking about it.

 

[anart]

I decided to look into this whole Kundalini/Kundabuffer question some more. From reading this thread and previous discussions on this topic, it seems like nobody had a clear idea on what exactly Gurdjieff was talking about.

It has been posted before, but I think it is a good idea to look again at what Gurdjieff said about Kundalini:

"In so-called 'occult' literature you have probably met with the expression 'Kundalini,' 'the fire of Kundalini,' or the 'serpent of Kundalini.' This expression is often used to designate some kind of strange force which is present in man and which can be awakened. But none of the known theories gives the right explanation of the force of Kundalini. Sometimes it is connected with sex, with sex energy, that is with the idea of the possibility of using sex energy for other purposes. This latter is entirely wrong because Kundalini can be in anything.

And above all, Kundalini is not anything desirable or useful for man's development. It is very curious how these occultists have got hold of the word from somewhere but have completely altered its meaning and from a very dangerous and terrible thing have made something to be hoped for and to be awaited as some blessing.

In reality Kundalini is the power of imagination, the power of fantasy, which takes the place of a real function. When a man dreams instead of acting, when his dreams take the place of reality, when a man imagines himself to be an eagle, a lion, or a magician, it is the force of Kundalini acting in him. Kundalini can act in all centers and with its help all the centers can be satisfied with the imaginary instead of the real. A sheep which considers itself a lion or a magician lives under the power of Kundalini.

Kundalini is a force put into men in order to keep them in their present state. If men could really see their true position and could understand all the horror of it, they would be unable to remain where they are even for one second. They would begin to seek a way out and they would quickly find it, because there is a way out; but men fail to see it simply because they are hypnotized. Kundalini is the force that keeps them in a hypnotic state. 'To awaken' for man means to be 'dehypnotized.' In this lies the chief difficulty and in this also lies the guarantee of its possibility, for there is no organic reason for sleep and man can awaken."

From: 'In Search Of The Miraculous' by P.D.Ouspensky

I think that we need to keep in mind that Gurdjieff is criticizing a very specific definition of 'Kundalini' - the one that was prevalent among occultists in the first half of the 20th century.

Specifically, he talks about "how these occultists have got hold of the word from somewhere but have completely altered its meaning".

Now, this "getting hold of the word somewhere" does not sound like he is talking about the actual traditions in India where the word Kundalini comes from.

What I do not understand is why he puts the label 'Kundalini' on what he describes as the "power of fantasy and illusion, which can replace a true function".

So maybe there is some connection between illusion and the Kundalini energy. Yet from what I have read so far, Gurdjieff seems to be literally the only one talking about it.

I think you're twisting Gurdjieff's words to fit your own wishful thinking about "kundalini". He makes it very clear that kundalini energy is what keeps man trapped in illusion and strengthening such energy is strengthening that illusion.

 

[Heaalih]

This make me think about TV, video games and virtual reality, where one can escape the daily difficulties, and which turn the energy away of going through and growing in real life.

"In so-called 'occult' literature you have probably met with the expression 'Kundalini,' 'the fire of Kundalini,' or the 'serpent of Kundalini.' This expression is often used to designate some kind of strange force which is present in man and which can be awakened. But none of the known theories gives the right explanation of the force of Kundalini. Sometimes it is connected with sex, with sex energy, that is with the idea of the possibility of using sex energy for other purposes. This latter is entirely wrong because Kundalini can be in anything.

And above all, Kundalini is not anything desirable or useful for man's development. It is very curious how these occultists have got hold of the word from somewhere but have completely altered its meaning and from a very dangerous and terrible thing have made something to be hoped for and to be awaited as some blessing.

In reality Kundalini is the power of imagination, the power of fantasy, which takes the place of a real function. When a man dreams instead of acting, when his dreams take the place of reality, when a man imagines himself to be an eagle, a lion, or a magician, it is the force of Kundalini acting in him. Kundalini can act in all centers and with its help all the centers can be satisfied with the imaginary instead of the real. A sheep which considers itself a lion or a magician lives under the power of Kundalini.

Kundalini is a force put into men in order to keep them in their present state. If men could really see their true position and could understand all the horror of it, they would be unable to remain where they are even for one second. They would begin to seek a way out and they would quickly find it, because there is a way out; but men fail to see it simply because they are hypnotized. Kundalini is the force that keeps them in a hypnotic state. 'To awaken' for man means to be 'dehypnotized.' In this lies the chief difficulty and in this also lies the guarantee of its possibility, for there is no organic reason for sleep and man can awaken."

From: 'In Search Of The Miraculous' by P.D.Ouspensky

 

[axj]

I think you're twisting Gurdjieff's words to fit your own wishful thinking about "kundalini". He makes it very clear that kundalini energy is what keeps man trapped in illusion and strengthening such energy is strengthening that illusion.

As you may have noticed I am not denying that Gudjieff's description of "Kundalini" may be correct. What I am trying to understand is what this "Kundalini energy" is and how exactly it "strengthens the illusion".

From my personal experience and the experience of others who are also very familiar with Gurdjieff, working with the chakras and the energy in the body and along the spine has only beneficial effects. It is a way of expanding your horizons about yourself and it also creates a better and more direct connection to those deeper aspect, such as the Higher Self.

I have never experienced anything even close to a connection between any kind of energy in the body and "strengthening the illusion".

If you have any direct experience with this, I would like to hear it. If you have no direct experience of this, then all you have is a theory.

 

[Beau]

As you may have noticed I am not denying that Gudjieff's description of "Kundalini" may be correct. What I am trying to understand is what this "Kundalini energy" is and how exactly it "strengthens the illusion".

Perhaps reading the definition of it from the Cass Glossary will help:

Esoteric teaching on this word varies greatly from source to source.

All sources agree that this is a sort of force or effect that is localized at the base of the spine and can be activated either spontaneously or through deliberate exercises. Kundalini is said to rise from the first chakra, along the spine, possibly all the way to the crown chakra. It is sometimes compared to a serpent that lies coiled at the base of the spine. Awakening this serpent is claimed to bring great powers and benefits.

Gurdjieff's view on the matter differs from most sources. He agrees that such a thing exists but teaches that it is the source of false imaginings, an actual bane of man, the remnant of the ill-famed 'organ kundabuffer' which is discussed extensively in Beelzebub's Tales to his Grandson. Kundalini is in effect the spell by which the 'evil magician' has hypnotized man to believe himself to be a magician while in truth he remains a sheep. Awakening the kundalini causes man to go live deeper in illusion and is ruinous to the Work, says Gurdjieff.

The kundalini is often compared to a serpent, maybe because of the undulating sensation that can be felt along the spine when doing certain exercises. Mouravieff writes that this is what the serpent of Genesis actually represents.

 

[doublea1535]

From my personal experience and the experience of others who are also very familiar with Gurdjieff, working with the chakras and the energy in the body and along the spine has only beneficial effects. It is a way of expanding your horizons about yourself and it also creates a better and more direct connection to those deeper aspect, such as the Higher Self.

I have never experienced anything even close to a connection between any kind of energy in the body and "strengthening the illusion".

If you have any direct experience with this, I would like to hear it. If you have no direct experience of this, then all you have is a theory.

If you are caught under the illusion of Kundalini, thinking that it only has positive effects, then you wouldn't have any direct experience of it strengthening your illusion, because you would be deluded. It's like a brainwashed person convinced they are not - of course they aren't going to think they are brainwashed. That's part of what brainwashing does!

My personal experience is limited to two individuals I knew who had performed Kundalini, and both of them had very weird energy patterns. One of them was quite a very nice person, but a little off too in some way I could never put my finger on. The other seemed even weirder, although I didn't know her for long. Whether or not Kundalini is actually a good or bad thing, I base my decision on it being basically a short-cut. It does not involve strengthening the core of the self, which requires seeing oneself for who one really is. Compared to the 4th way, Kundalini sounds very easy.

 

[anart]

From my personal experience and the experience of others who are also very familiar with Gurdjieff, working with the chakras and the energy in the body and along the spine has only beneficial effects. It is a way of expanding your horizons about yourself and it also creates a better and more direct connection to those deeper aspect, such as the Higher Self.

You've just described illusion. Of course strengthening the illusion in which we are trapped is "pleasurable" - how could it be any other way? Your posts here are an example of that. If that weren't true, you'd see the entire subject differently - yet - you are blind to it due to being trapped in illusion.

I have never experienced anything even close to a connection between any kind of energy in the body and "strengthening the illusion".

Why in the world would you think you'd be able to tell? That's the whole point of illusion. Your posts here are proof that you're lost in illusion, that the fruit of such practices is spiritual death due to entering more deeply into the trap that is human illusion - all the while being oh so sure that you're "broadening your horizons". It's really very, very clear.