"Life Without Bread"

[anart]

Atrides choose The List and it is a magnificent weapon, it simple and very effective, I know, I'm using it. But I was scared, as I said, that the two would be confuse and open ways for attacks. This forum is all about truth and objectivity and Atreides is "enlightenment", is intuition concerning the diet or the list, can carry many to miss interpret it.

Laurentien, I must admit that the above sounds quite disingenuous, after reading your earlier posts - as if you are trying to change horses in mid-stream. The reality is that you were posting from an emotional standpoint to try to defend your own desires and understanding. You deny that, but denying it does not make it less true.

If you had understood Atriedes point, as you say you did, then there would have been no concern about 'eating only pork', because you would have understood that this wasn't the point at all.

So - it would be much more beneficial for you to actually face your programs here, and your behavior, instead of denying it and pretending that you understood all along but were just concerned about others not understanding... that's actually a pretty lame explanation...

Atriedes has explained how he developed a way to be the driver of his carriage on this issue, an enormous issue - that is the point.

Regarding this:

As you obviously know, attack toward you all at the château and FOTCM at the moment are climbing. Atreide is honesty is obvious in is post but for someone from the exterior reading it, not knowing about The List, it could be interpreted quit radically.

It would only be interpreted radically by a radical, and, after all, it's really not up to you to determine what is and what is not presented on this forum. If you had understood Atriedes' post as you say you did, you would see this is a non-issue. Again - you are coming up with reasons - any reason at all - to not look at yourself.

 

[StrangeCaptain]

If you had understood Atriedes point, as you say you did, then there would have been no concern about 'eating only pork', because you would have understood that this wasn't the point at all.

So - it would be much more beneficial for you to actually face your programs here, and your behavior, instead of denying it and pretending that you understood all along but were just concerned about others not understanding... that's actually a pretty lame explanation...

It seems that you missed the boat on that one, and then trying to explain how you agreed all along and were just worried about attacks on the forum is like standing on the dock watching the boat sail away and explaining to yourself that the dock was where you meant to be the whole time.

 

[Gaby]

Okay, so we make our research and experiences available to the public. Sharing is good! We help people by giving recommendations, "been there done that." We encourage people to read the recommended books and to read this thread, to network and to share results and their experiences and research as well. It is a great way of learning!

Atreides has shared his experience which is invaluable. There is a powerful psychology behind his health progress which is practically non-existent in mainstream medicine and I'm glad he shared it in this thread. That knowledge is not easy at all to obtain and I'm sure a lot of people will benefit from it. That is the whole purpose of networking. I certainly benefited and I'm seeing potential applications in other domains other than diet.

Yeah, I understand that there will always be the potential of black and white thinking with concerns that it is "the unique and only diet permitted". The predator mind can be very cunning indeed. You'll be surprised to realize how tightly connected this entire forum is with the Work, including the health section.

Then there are those who will take stuff out of context to put us into trouble. You see, it just so happened that I was questioned by the police last week regarding our health discussions in this forum and our responsibility for all of you and I had about enough of defamations and witch hunts.

So, if you are uncomfortable with any of this material, then by all means, do as you wish. It might be the case that you need other experiences before you can assimilate certain knowledge, even if that includes the destruction of your own health.

This is not a following orders forum. I hope everybody is understanding why they're making these health choices. As Gurdjieff says: "The more a man understands what he is doing, the greater will be the results of his efforts. This is a fundamental principle of the fourth way."

 

[Atreides]

expressed in words what I have been feeling about the sacredness of the pig in particular, about eating the sow as a sacrament (The List) and it inspired me further about the blood of the Goddess Gaia

There is certainly something to it. The pig is a strange animal in my opinion, it seems rather perfect to be eaten, and then there is the tendency of psychopathic patriarchal religions to forbid the eating of it. Why forbid it? Especially with false ideas, like the pig is a filthy animal? Chickens are filthy animals, people who work with them for too long can get sick and die from just breathing the air around them.

It is actually strange that it would be Laurentien who wrote that, when he himself is having pretty serious health issues.

He was acting emotionally, to be honest, I had an emotional reaction to his emotional reaction. In the end though, I would much prefer that he understand The List and what it actually is, and that the doctrinal/dogmatic/religious language around it is a bit like a play, an act, but yet not a play and not an act, it is both deadly serious, and uproariously humorous.

I am sure The List could be misinterpreted as some zany religious idea, but to be honest, even our most pedestrian comments get blown out of proportion and twisted anyway. Also, there is something religious about The List, so it is kind of the truth. Life is Religion, and so is eating.

Atreides, you might find Iron John by Robert Bly useful, if you haven’t read it already and I wish you well in your quest for sobriety.

No, I haven't read it, but it does look interesting.

The List is your opportunity to grow bigger than yourself.

I couldn't have said it better myself. At least I hope it is the truth, ask me again in a few years to see if I have grown any.

It also seems that seafood is one of the things we can eat though additional nutrients might be necessary.

Moules are on The List. If you listen closely you'll see why, because it is reasonable to eat a Moule.

IMHO the list underlines an important attitude that may be expressed as being un tune with nature. We are so untunned today that we cannot feel it.

...

We often forget hat we are part of the Earth, part of its cycles, and because of those silly authoritarian religions, we thought of ourselve as its masters.

There is, I think, the crux of the matter, the idea that god created man to be master over the earth. This is simply not true, at best man was created to be a guardian, which is a different ball of wax entirely.\

Being a master over something implies privilege, being a guardian for something implies responsibility.

This is not a following orders forum.

In no way should The List ever be thought of as something anyone has to listen to, it's something you choose to do, no one is saying you have to do anything, heck, you don't have to do anything at all. You may not like where you end up, then again, you may.

 

[anart]

So, if you are uncomfortable with any of this material, then by all means, do as you wish. It might be the case that you need other experiences before you can assimilate certain knowledge, even if that includes the destruction of your own health.

This is not a following orders forum. I hope everybody is understanding why they're making these health choices. As Gurdjieff says: "The more a man understands what he is doing, the greater will be the results of his efforts. This is a fundamental principle of the fourth way."

I think we should put this on a sign 40 stories high so that every member of this forum reads it every single day.

 

[theos]

Thanks loads for sharing The List with us Atreides. I especially like the part about there being no negotiating with the list. With certain things in life there comes a time when you have to put your foot down, so to speak, and not waver. This is an excellent example. :)

 

[Laurentien2]

So maybe the idea/program of humans being able to eat a larger variety of foods is still something that gives you comfort on some level?

It would seem so, indeed. It is actually strange that it would be Laurentien who wrote that, when he himself is having pretty serious health issues. Maybe you haven't felt quite shocked yet, eh? Your rationalization sounds a bit to me like saying "I won't get pregnant, really. I'll just get a little bit pregnant". You either are, or you aren't. It is obvious that we can take into consideration individual differences, but the idea itself of being on such a simple diet seems to bother you, eh? Even when your life might depend on it?

Until your body is straightened up, big time, you can't know what food is safe. The whole point is not taking unnecessary risks, and let your body heal. If The List save the life of someone with a very sensitive condition, and contains food that is safe for everyone, what does that tell you? You can worry about your "speshul" list afterwards (and you probably won't once you start feeling well and healing). Coconut oil; for example, is not good for everyone. But you can't seem to think about The List for you too, eh?

I'd suggest that you read Atreides' post once again. He explained in detail why it needed to be quite "doctrinal" (for him), as you put it. And in fact, it's funny that you would argue on that point when, seen from outside, it would seem that you would benefit from a bit of discipline and "staking of the Predator" yourself. Eh?

No it does not bother me at all and coincidentally, I will receive the pig or pork meat that a farmer was raising for us last summer. I completely agree that taking risk by ingesting something not on the list given to me by Laura could have severe result. My concern about attack, probably due to my lack of knowledge on health and diet subject, can only be lifted with a lot of reading. I took time for my family last summer and now face so much material to catch up and no time to do so. So yeah! I'm paying the price for disconnecting myself, being one that don't posses a pure intellect that permit me to grab a subjeect at a first read or read a 400 page book in a day, I got a lot to catch up.

But I did catch the potential for the work in Atreides post, but was concerned as I said, but obviously unnecessary, about interpretation that could fuel attack.

Posté par Perceval;

Your comment, Laurentian, about "the goddess" creating all this fauna and diversity for us to feed on is rather presumptuous and self-referencing, and flies in the face of the evidence for a diet of almost purely animal fat and protein being optimal for human health.

Didn't the "C" said that wild animal could provide the maximal food recently, that by there natural nutrition, each species gather the maximal nutrient which produce the most nutritious protein and fat. My concern about mono feeding was that there may be more beneficial meat available and that I won't close the doors of my "speshul" list just yet.

Saying that Atreides' outline is 'doctrinal' sounds like an emotional reaction, especially given that he merely reiterates the findings of years of research by people like Weston Price and offers his own experiences, which show him within about ten minutes what he can and can't eat, and have led him to conclude that Pork products not only cause the fewest problems but also seem to provide the most efficient source of energy.

Yes, it was an emotional reaction due as usual by my lack of knowledge. Sorry but I'm dense, 46 years of eating junk like gluten, 49 years of eating carbs and fiber are maybe having effect. Maybe I'm too screw up to follow this forum. I'm not looking for pity here but only write the fact.

If you plan to eat in the most conscious way, I would suggest that you need to allow hard scientific research to guide you, rather than your addictions to food (which have been built up throughout your whole life) and your desire to obtain pleasure, as well as energy, from eating.

In short, you might want to consider whether or not you are addicted to food and taste and the pleasure you derive from eating a 'varied diet'. It's not exactly an uncommon way to look at and respond to food, just about everyone on the planet looks at and responds to food in that way. But it does not serve you, or anyone here, to argue in the way you are arguing, which is essentially arguing for your own addiction while denying that you are subject to such an addiction and ignoring the hard science behind the idea that humans really are best-suited to a more or less mono-diet.

See this post; http://cassiopaea.org/forum/index.php/topic,22916.msg294214.html#msg294214 , « Réponse #1754 le: Aujourd'hui à 05:00:14 pm »

Thanks Atreide for this post, http://cassiopaea.org/forum/index.php/topic,22916.msg294187.html#msg294187, you spend time en lighting me in a language more comprehensible to my limited intellect. The path I choose in life was not the intellectual one, I choose the path of the heart so yeah! got a lot of neurons to repair and reactivate. I often think that I'm not at my place here due to my shallowness in science, language, my inability to understand and use English perfectly and more.

I won't say more about the contain of your post because as you said in a later one, He was acting emotionally, to be honest, I had an emotional reaction to his emotional reaction. Let just get hold of our horse here, it is late and I need to sleep.

Mod's note: Activated the forum link

 

[Psalehesost]

So, if you are uncomfortable with any of this material, then by all means, do as you wish. It might be the case that you need other experiences before you can assimilate certain knowledge, even if that includes the destruction of your own health.

This is not a following orders forum. I hope everybody is understanding why they're making these health choices. As Gurdjieff says: "The more a man understands what he is doing, the greater will be the results of his efforts. This is a fundamental principle of the fourth way."

I think we should put this on a sign 40 stories high so that every member of this forum reads it every single day.

If, on the more serious side, a "global announcement" to always be there on every board of the forum for visitors would work, a possible technical solution for techie-oriented admins to look at:
_http://custom.simplemachines.org/mods/index.php?mod=1617
Though looking at the last page of its thread ( _http://www.simplemachines.org/community/index.php?topic=292270.0 ) it seems there may be an as-yet unresolved bug with the current version.



On the topic of The List, part of it seems to go somewhat over my head. I understand that it can be very useful for those struggling with sticking to their dietary choices - and then perceiving a solid personal meaning to it would naturally follow. For me, while seeing the meaning in the underlying principles, personally going through the efforts to form The List in full in myself does not seem meaningful, as adherence to the basic principles is already achieved.

I saw at first an issue with some details, though it seems this was from taking them too literally. Some ideals may not be fully achievable by all, because they depend upon the conditions where we live. For example, not eating packaged and bar-coded things - this depends on what's available; but the underlying principle of eating as natural as is possible can be seen and is sound. Ditto for the pork chop ideal.

I now basically live on fatted-up (butter has recently entered the diet for this specific reason) slices of huge organic sausages made of a mixture of beef and pork - hard to find good, fatty plain meats where I live as yet, so I prefer a good-and-fattier sausage to a good-except-lean pork chop. Had I the kind of pork pictured earlier in this thread available (and/or porky organ meats of high quality), that'd be my new mono-diet.

You can't write it down

I wonder - what about the following?

'("Keep it natural, stupid!")

The purity of this syntax I'm sure you'll recognize. Maybe here it has at last found its place? Though I don't know about the contents - having come to The List, you'd be the one to know.

 

[SeekinTruth]

Thanks loads for sharing The List with us Atreides. I especially like the part about there being no negotiating with the list. With certain things in life there comes a time when you have to put your foot down, so to speak, and not waver. This is an excellent example. :)

Yeah, this is a very important point. I also made RADICALLY drastic dietary changes over five years ago, when at the age of 39, I came down with a serious health problem. It was not (immediately) life threatening, but it was painful enough and incapacitated me for days on end enough that I DID put my foot down: out went the cakes (even if they were homemade w/ basic ingredients), the 4 cups of coffee with condensed milk AND sugar, the ice cream, all the other countless sweets, breads and cheeses, ALL alcohol (although I was never much of a drinker) etc. And as Atreides mentioned, in the beginning whenever I did slip and had something I shouldn't, the negative result was immediate and blunt. So I just listened to my body and stayed away from all the crap I was addicted to.

I am absolutely certain that my insanely high carb diet was what lead to my health issues combined with years of very high stress and insomnia. And the proof is that within a few months of eating mainly meat and lots of organ meats at that and supplements (including specific amino acids and plant extracts, etc.) my health issues were completely gone. And I was still quite largely ignorant about diet and health compared to how much I've learned since.

As was said, it is a mental construct that gets you out of the addictions that were bringing you steadily to self destruction.

 

[Peam]

Atreides, what you've written about your experience is truly inspiring. You've stared death in the face and then found the will to change your life around. It reminds me of the saying "When a man knows he is to be hanged in a fortnight, it concentrates his mind wonderfully."

I too have struggled with being overweight for most of my life. That coupled with feeling ugly and lack of self worth. Never really had any major health problems though, so I'm lucky in that respect.

Another saying that comes to mind is “One should eat to live, not live to eat.”

Good luck to you Atreides.

 

[Gwenllian]

I am a bit confused.

I have read the book Life without Bread and am now back to reading The UltraMind Solution. I have read eight pages of this thread.

What would be better to embark on first? The (in my case) 9 Bread Units diet/lifestyle or the UltraMind diet?

Thanks!

 

[TOTEM36]

I loved this point.

The list is doctrinal and dogmatic, and irrational. It's supposed to be that way, because the human mind is naturally irrational, or at least most of it is irrational. Since rationality began taking the forefront of human endeavor man has gone farther towards his own destruction and the destruction of others and nature than any and all religions combined. Rational thinkers have caused more pain and suffering that a million Torquemadas ever could.

Here is my version i have been using to debate people with for years-

"The Logical mind is irrational. The Rational mind is not logical."
hee hee.

 

[Atreides]

You can't write it down

I wonder - what about the following?

'("Keep it natural, stupid!")

The purity of this syntax I'm sure you'll recognize. Maybe here it has at last found its place? Though I don't know about the contents - having come to The List, you'd be the one to know.

While the New Jersey school would definitely feel that LISP could express The List, I am not entirely convinced. I always say "God tried to write the Universe in LISP, but the Devil beat him to it with Python."

In the end, you'd have to find a way to represent a non-list, where all of the members aren't members, and even some non-members aren't members, but in a significant way.

What would be better to embark on first? The (in my case) 9 Bread Units diet/lifestyle or the UltraMind diet?

Well, I can only tell you my personal experiences of what worked, if you are having trouble starting out, reducing vegetable matter slowly might be a good way. I never like to look at it in terms of carbs, instead I think of it as reducing vegetable and protein matter and increasing fat. Counting carbs is a fools errand, they are concealed in everything and are everywhere, it's just so tiring, and also, is something easy to forget, especially when you face the rather compulsive nature of eating and snacking.

For instance, I often found myself half-way through a snack before even realizing that I was eating at all. I would be thinking of something else, a work problem or something, and just reach out and start snacking on something. There would be a chocolate bar left around and I would just break off a piece and start munching it.

So this was one of the problems I had to fix and I realized essentially that the no-carb/low-card idea wasn't a strong enough "thing" in my mind. It was too logical, and it was pretty easy to usurp if some part of me wanted to snack for comfort, or due to nervousness.

Also there's the idea that you can eat "kinda" healthy. But like has been said, that's like being "kinda" pregnant, you either are, or you aren't.

My personal, and unprofessional, opinion is: Eat only pork chops, fattiest you can find, and put some butter on them to make them fattier.

I am all about the simple solution, forget about the details and the reasons because in the end, your mind is really good at distracting you with minutiae and rationalization. With The List, you never ask: What can I eat? That's answered, eat pork chops.

But when you first start out, if you're a serious carb addict, it might be a good idea to just cut back on them, do it in stages. Cut out all grains first of all, then maybe stick to one or two safe veggies, like Green Beans, but don't boil or steam them, fry them with lard, and drown them in butter.

I personally favor an elimination diet, get rid of everything and find the 1 food you respond well to and stick to it. Variety be damned. So things that I did early on were eating lots of veal and veal soups. Usually you get fattier veal when you get the stew variety and it's usually tender enough to just fry up, or boil. Eat the fat, drink the broth, it's pretty soft on the stomach. Try to avoid all spices though, only use salt.

Those are just my two cents, but for specifics on technical scientific stuff, Ailen, Psyche and L have the best advice to give.

 

[Gaby]

For those of you losing a lot of weight and getting cholesterol levels checked, you might be interested in the following article:

What is this wacky thing called “weight loss”?

Posted on September 20, 2011 by Dr. William Davis

I’ve discussed this before, but it has proven such an (encouragingly!) frequent issue that I thought it was worth discussing once again.

What happens when you lose weight?

The process of weight loss is characterized by multiple shifts in metabolic patterns that can be confusing. To the uninitiated eye, weight loss can look like a disastrous distortion in metabolism. The naive doctor on seeing your lab values, for instance, might insist you take a statin drug, a fibrate like Tricor (to reduce triglycerides or increase HDL), or simply berate you for your bad health habits–when it’s actually a good thing you’ve accomplished.

So when you lose weight, say, 30 pounds in 3 months, what have you accomplished?

Energy stored as fat, especially from visceral fat stores, is mobilized into the bloodstream. It floods the bloodstream as fatty acids and triglycerides. These fatty acids and triglycerides don’t occur in isolation, but interact with other particles and metabolic patterns. The resulting blood patterns include:

–Increased triglycerides–An increase in triglycerides, for instance, from 90 mg/dl to 200 mg/dl in the midst of weight loss is common.

–Reduced HDL–The flood of triglycerides leads to increased degradation of HDL, thus a drop. A drop in HDL from, say, 40 mg/dl to 27 mg/dl–very frightening to people–is exceptionally common.

–Increased blood sugar–The flood of fatty acids and triglycerides results in insulin resistance, leading to higher blood sugars. It is not uncommon for someone with pre-diabetes to develop diabetic-range blood sugars, or a non-diabetic to show pre-diabetic blood sugars.

–Increased small LDL particles–Though small LDL is highly variable during weight loss. When it does happen, it’s probably from the interaction of VLDL (triglycerides) with LDL particles and the reaction that overloads LDL particles with triglycerides and conversion to small LDL particles.

So why don’t doctors often recognize these patterns when a patient loses weight? Because they rarely see it. Most of my colleagues are accustomed to having patients come back with weight gain, getting heavier and heavier each time. Lose weight? Impossible! So they just don’t recognize weight loss effects when they see it. As followers of The Heart Scan Blog know, a frequent conversation around here is “Am I too skinny?” or “How do I stop losing weight?”

The solution: Be patient. Be patient and wait about two months after a weight plateau has been achieved. That’s when the numbers “settle down” and you see marked drops in triglycerides, increases in HDL, drops in blood sugar, reductions in small LDL.

As with many things, it’s all about timing.

 

[truth seeker]

No it does not bother me at all and coincidentally, I will receive the pig or pork meat that a farmer was raising for us last summer. I completely agree that taking risk by ingesting something not on the list given to me by Laura could have severe result. My concern about attack, probably due to my lack of knowledge on health and diet subject, can only be lifted with a lot of reading. I took time for my family last summer and now face so much material to catch up and no time to do so. So yeah! I'm paying the price for disconnecting myself, being one that don't posses a pure intellect that permit me to grab a subjeect at a first read or read a 400 page book in a day, I got a lot to catch up.

But I did catch the potential for the work in Atreides post, but was concerned as I said, but obviously unnecessary, about interpretation that could fuel attack.

and

Yes, it was an emotional reaction due as usual by my lack of knowledge. Sorry but I'm dense, 46 years of eating junk like gluten, 49 years of eating carbs and fiber are maybe having effect. Maybe I'm too screw up to follow this forum. I'm not looking for pity here but only write the fact.

and

Thanks Atreide for this post, http://cassiopaea.org/forum/index.php/topic,22916.msg294187.html#msg294187, you spend time en lighting me in a language more comprehensible to my limited intellect. The path I choose in life was not the intellectual one, I choose the path of the heart so yeah! got a lot of neurons to repair and reactivate. I often think that I'm not at my place here due to my shallowness in science, language, my inability to understand and use English perfectly and more.

I won't say more about the contain of your post because as you said in a later one, He was acting emotionally, to be honest, I had an emotional reaction to his emotional reaction. Let just get hold of our horse here, it is late and I need to sleep.

I realize you want this to go away because you may be feeling uncomfortable. Unfortunately any programs we have stay with us until we decide to ruthlessly shine a light upon them.

What I was picking up on was the contradiction between your saying that you were essentially fine yet you admit above that you had an emotional reaction. Something that was coming through unbeknownst to you in your previous posts. L, please know that you don't have to be perfect. None of us are! We all have out difficulties and programs. There is nothing wrong with or lacking in you!

I also had to go through a kind of mourning period and even had to literally have a conversation with myself to get my mind on board. Don't think for one moment that I didn't try to bargain my way out of it: "We'll maybe if I try for the tenth time to eat nuts or coconut oil, my body will cooperate." It didn't happen. What it came down to for me personally was finally coming to the realization that if I wasn't doing what was the absolute best for my body/mind, I wouldn't be able to help others in ways that were optimal. That pretty much cinched it for me.

So perhaps your feelings regarding 'not fitting in' may not only be exacerbated by residual elements from your previous diet, but are also tied into some part of you that doesn't feel worthy enough to take care of yourself due to wounding from the past? If all of life is a mirror, then your body is screaming that there is something wrong. Something's been wrong for a long time now but it's gotten to the tipping point and essentially begging you to make a choice in your own best interests. For me it was fibroids but as others have said, perhaps some of us really need a dire situation before they are willing to act. As usual, it's up to you.