"Life Without Bread"

SeekinTruth said:
I agree with nicklebleu. All the meta-analysis, etc. for the last couple of decades has shown that cholesterol has a very important all around health protective effect. Consistently, these studies showed that those with the highest cholesterol levels had the lowest all-cause mortality rates and those with the lowest cholesterol had the highest all-cause mortality rates. So, it seems if you want to live longer, it's better to have high cholesterol. The only problem connected with cholesterol is if it becomes oxidized, and this is actually eliminated with this diet.

Triglycerides, as mentioned by nicklebleu are much more important to keep low and with this diet they tend to be quite low (and tend to improve with this diet compared to before the diet).

I wonder if we could assemble a short, but impactful, list of compelling scientific papers on the topic that people could print out and give to their doctors? Doctors don't always research beyond their medical school training because they simply don't have the time. So maybe this would be a good way to start spreading info and waking up some doctors?

Probably wishful thinking, but might be worth a try. If 9 of them reject the ideas, but 1 of them changes his views, that's a start!
 
Laura said:
SeekinTruth said:
I agree with nicklebleu. All the meta-analysis, etc. for the last couple of decades has shown that cholesterol has a very important all around health protective effect. Consistently, these studies showed that those with the highest cholesterol levels had the lowest all-cause mortality rates and those with the lowest cholesterol had the highest all-cause mortality rates. So, it seems if you want to live longer, it's better to have high cholesterol. The only problem connected with cholesterol is if it becomes oxidized, and this is actually eliminated with this diet.

Triglycerides, as mentioned by nicklebleu are much more important to keep low and with this diet they tend to be quite low (and tend to improve with this diet compared to before the diet).

I wonder if we could assemble a short, but impactful, list of compelling scientific papers on the topic that people could print out and give to their doctors? Doctors don't always research beyond their medical school training because they simply don't have the time. So maybe this would be a good way to start spreading info and waking up some doctors?

Probably wishful thinking, but might be worth a try. If 9 of them reject the ideas, but 1 of them changes his views, that's a start!
I think it could be quite useful, notwithstanding docs who are afraid of venturing too far from the status quo. My pain specialist was really surprised with the dietary effects on me but wanted me to reduce the saturated fats. I showed up at the next appointment armed with printouts and PubMed references and he never mentioned it again.

The next guy I need to convert is my rheumatologist who wants me to cut back on smoking, since he's come across data suggesting quitting smoking can reduce the effects of rheumatoid arthritis (ex. Cigarette Smoking and Rheumatoid Arthritis _http://arthritis.about.com/od/smoking/a/cigarette_smoking_utd.htm). Oddly enough, these studies have also shown that those who never smoked are at a higher risk of developing arthritis than those who quit smoking But he was nonetheless amazed at the effects the diet had on my ankylosing spondylitis as he's never had a patient go into remission, let alone improve with this degenerative disease. So, I'm hopeful he can open his mind with my organic tobacco consumption.

Gonzo
 
I wonder if we could assemble a short, but impactful, list of compelling scientific papers on the topic that people could print out and give to their doctors? Doctors don't always research beyond their medical school training because they simply don't have the time. So maybe this would be a good way to start spreading info and waking up some doctors?

Probably wishful thinking, but might be worth a try. If 9 of them reject the ideas, but 1 of them changes his views, that's a start!

imagine how many patients would benefit even if just the one doc changes their outlook !
i feel this is worth pursuing.
i'd be happy to help collect / organize info.
 
transientP said:
I wonder if we could assemble a short, but impactful, list of compelling scientific papers on the topic that people could print out and give to their doctors? Doctors don't always research beyond their medical school training because they simply don't have the time. So maybe this would be a good way to start spreading info and waking up some doctors?

Probably wishful thinking, but might be worth a try. If 9 of them reject the ideas, but 1 of them changes his views, that's a start!

imagine how many patients would benefit even if just the one doc changes their outlook !
i feel this is worth pursuing.
i'd be happy to help collect / organize info.

I guess you could create a thread as a repository for the different studies we find that could be used. We could include the text and a link for easy copying and printing.
 
It's been a long time since I posted on the forum. The longer I don't post, the stronger my aversion to posting. With the new year coming, I'd like to change that. So I'll start by reporting on my experience doing the diet here.

I've been doing the Paleo diet for about 3 months. During this time, I've experienced many of the issues that other members have shared in this thread. In the first 2 weeks, it was tiredness, with a slight leg cramp at one time due to lack of water/salt intake. I also lost about 3 kg in this period. This was the issue because I was quite skinny to start with. Fortunately, I've regained all of that plus some. After that, there was a bad eczema breakout for about 3 weeks. Actually, the eczema is a normal occurrence for me every summer (it is summer time now in Australia). The difference this time is that it was quite short and has not returned since then. So maybe this should go into the benefit section?

The most difficult issue for me was diarrhea alternating with constipation. This lasted for 2 months and just stopped recently. Betaine HCl and ox bile helped, as did suitable forms of fat intake. I found out after some experimentation that the most suitable form of fat that I can eat large amount is unrendered pork fat (natural fat that has not been rendered into lard), followed by butter. I could not eat lard, both warm and cold, in large amount and only used it for cooking vegetables.

Despite all the difficulties, the stories and experiences that have been shared in this thread have been very helpful in helping me keep the course. Now that the transition to fat burning is complete, I can only say that it has been SO worth it. The most significant benefit is perhaps the clear-headedness and positive mood. It is really as different as day and night compared to before even though I had been gluten and dairy free for a long time. Another significant one is the freedom from food craving. I often get questions like: "Why can't you eat just one piece of fruit. It won't kill you..." They think that it is a big sacrifice for me to give up one of the joys in life for health benefit. But as others have shared, I really don't feel any craving for sweet or carb, and am contented with just meat and fat every day.

Many other health issues, large and small, have also resolved themselves since I started on this diet but I won't bore you by listing them. The more I read, go on with the diet and watch the changes in my body, the more I'm amazed with the body's ability to heal, as long as it is given the right materials.

Finally, a big thank to Laura, Psyche and all other members who have shared their research and experience in this thread and else where on the forum. THANK YOU all.
 
I have now tried acetyl l-carnitine, having seen the mentions of it improving mental energy - this is true in my case. With it, it seems I can make much more, energy-wise, of the fat I eat. So I highly recommend trying it - at any rate - for those who never really got a truly good level of energy - even if it felt acceptable most of the time, and even if both physical endurance and mental clarity otherwise improved with the diet.

Of those tried thus far, that makes two supplements that have had a clearly discernible effect for me: Vitamin C and acetyl l-carnitine.



Now for something different: My gut has never really got into good working order - by which I mean that the stage of digestion does seem to work fine, but I'm basically dependent on vitamin C to get things moving from time to time.

Sometimes, and generally if (but not at all limited to if) any significant amount of fiber is at all at play, clearing the gut - once a lot of vitamin C has been taken - can entail half a day passing, with plenty of gurgling and gas, before anything more happens. Having lots of ghee seems to reduce (not remove) the vitamin C requirement, I think because it seems to not be absorbed as well as lard and is therefore making things more fluid.

Basically, things generally don't come out unless at least partially fluid - even if straining like crazy, with no abnormalities to the stools. I think the muscles simply don't/can't let go to allow anything to pass with the proper ease.

Maybe, even while still a twenty-something, my gut has already been irreparably damaged (nerve damage) as described in Fiber Menace and related writings after a life of constant straining to pass stools (even had to deal with that - painfully - since early childhood). I simply considered it "normal". With constant straining, it "worked" as such with the old diet, though in relation to the benefits of the new diet, this entire issue is but a mild inconvenience - so long as I have access to vitamin C.
 
Psalehesost said:
...Now for something different: My gut has never really got into good working order - by which I mean that the stage of digestion does seem to work fine, but I'm basically dependent on vitamin C to get things moving from time to time...

I have been having trouble with that too, but it seems to be settling down now and things have been moving fairly well (not quite daily) for the last week or so.

If I reduce my carb & fiber intake to an extremely low level then I seem to have more problems than if I don't, so I don't. In fact I have increased my fiber & carb intake of late, and while I am not yet sure, I think that is what is helping. I haven't measured my carb intake recently but it should be around 20-30 g at most. Some days it is lower. I still eat a lot of meat and fat -- much more than I used to.

My goal isn't to see how few carbs I can consume. It's to feel better and to heal. So if a few more grams of carbs (& fiber) seem to take me in that direction, then I have a few more. At the same time my weight is continuing to drop, I don't go hungry, and there are no indications of dropping out of lipolysis. My gut could be stretched out from many years of "trying to get enough fiber" so maybe it just needs a little extra bulk now in order to work.
 
Megan said:
I have been having trouble with that too, but it seems to be settling down now and things have been moving fairly well (not quite daily) for the last week or so.

If I reduce my carb & fiber intake to an extremely low level then I seem to have more problems than if I don't, so I don't. In fact I have increased my fiber & carb intake of late, and while I am not yet sure, I think that is what is helping. I haven't measured my carb intake recently but it should be around 20-30 g at most. Some days it is lower. I still eat a lot of meat and fat -- much more than I used to.

My goal isn't to see how few carbs I can consume. It's to feel better and to heal. So if a few more grams of carbs (& fiber) seem to take me in that direction, then I have a few more. [...]

Psalehesost and Megan, I am glad you brought this up. I have been having trouble as well, and often have to take more Magnesium and Vitamin C to keep things moving. I have been eating very few carbs, but at Christmas when visiting family, I ate more vegetables, mainly spinach and winter squash. I noticed that my gut seemed to feel better, so have bought a few vegetables and am going to watch how I feel. I suspect that i was eating too few carbs and that my body may need a bit more fiber, since I am one of the older ones and have been eating lots of vegetables most of my life. I am also trying to eat more fat to make sure that is not the issue.
 
Like several of you, I have to eat a few carbs a day. Either half a sweet potato or a handful of greenbeans or, my new favorite snack that seems to be fine for me: cashews. Can't eat any other nuts, but cashews work well. If I stick to this, I have no problems eliminating every morning on schedule. It also helps to put plenty of butter on my morning pork pattie.

Yesterday I made pumpkin pie and mixed berry pie (mostly blackberries) with just gelatin and xylitol (used spices in the pumpkin). We poured it on a bed of ground cashews and butter like a graham cracker crust, refrigerated for a few hours, and it was PERFECT.
 
Laura said:
transientP said:
I wonder if we could assemble a short, but impactful, list of compelling scientific papers on the topic that people could print out and give to their doctors? Doctors don't always research beyond their medical school training because they simply don't have the time. So maybe this would be a good way to start spreading info and waking up some doctors?

Probably wishful thinking, but might be worth a try. If 9 of them reject the ideas, but 1 of them changes his views, that's a start!

imagine how many patients would benefit even if just the one doc changes their outlook !
i feel this is worth pursuing.
i'd be happy to help collect / organize info.

I guess you could create a thread as a repository for the different studies we find that could be used. We could include the text and a link for easy copying and printing.

Doctors and health care workers are very busy people, and it might be worth considering using TinyURL to shorten long addresses (URLs) of web pages when giving them a printed list of links; something that would make it easier for such folks to access the information.

As an example, a web address that looks like . . .

_http://www.amazon.com/Kindle-Wireless-Reading-Display-Globa lly/dp/B003FSUDM4/ref=amb_link_353259562_2?pf_rd_m=ATVPDKIK X0DER&pf_rd_s=center-10&pf_rd_r=11EYKTN682A79T370AM3&pf_rd_ t=201&pf_rd_p=1270985982&pf_rd_i=B002Y27P3M

. . . can be shortened to _http://tinyurl.com/KindleWireless
using TinyURL.
 
Endymion said:
Doctors and health care workers are very busy people, and it might be worth considering using TinyURL to shorten long addresses (URLs) of web pages when giving them a printed list of links; something that would make it easier for such folks to access the information.

As an example, a web address that looks like . . .

_http://www.amazon.com/Kindle-Wireless-Reading-Display-Globa lly/dp/B003FSUDM4/ref=amb_link_353259562_2?pf_rd_m=ATVPDKIK X0DER&pf_rd_s=center-10&pf_rd_r=11EYKTN682A79T370AM3&pf_rd_ t=201&pf_rd_p=1270985982&pf_rd_i=B002Y27P3M

. . . can be shortened to _http://tinyurl.com/KindleWireless
using TinyURL.

I wasn't suggesting giving doctors links but rather printed papers that we, here, can obtain from the links.
 
Laura said:
Endymion said:
Doctors and health care workers are very busy people, and it might be worth considering using TinyURL to shorten long addresses (URLs) of web pages when giving them a printed list of links; something that would make it easier for such folks to access the information.

As an example, a web address that looks like . . .

_http://www.amazon.com/Kindle-Wireless-Reading-Display-Globa lly/dp/B003FSUDM4/ref=amb_link_353259562_2?pf_rd_m=ATVPDKIK X0DER&pf_rd_s=center-10&pf_rd_r=11EYKTN682A79T370AM3&pf_rd_ t=201&pf_rd_p=1270985982&pf_rd_i=B002Y27P3M

. . . can be shortened to _http://tinyurl.com/KindleWireless
using TinyURL.

I wasn't suggesting giving doctors links but rather printed papers that we, here, can obtain from the links.

That's even better! And reduces to a minimum any excuses they might have for not reading! :)
 
I guess you could create a thread as a repository for the different studies we find that could be used. We could include the text and a link for easy copying and printing.

would "Health and Diet Research" be fine ?

i will start collecting the data today.
if anyone has any suggestions on specific research to include, please point it out.
 
Laura said:
Like several of you, I have to eat a few carbs a day. Either half a sweet potato or a handful of greenbeans or, my new favorite snack that seems to be fine for me: cashews. Can't eat any other nuts, but cashews work well. If I stick to this, I have no problems eliminating every morning on schedule...

Of all the things I eliminated, sweet potatoes were the hardest to let go. I did not crave them, but rather they seemed to be doing something for me. But they were so high in carbs. I reintroduced them several weeks ago, intermittently, and I noticed an improvement within a week. I found that even one small whole sweet potato was a bit much, sugar-wise (in terms of how I felt after the meal), so I reduced the amount to half of a small sweet potato in one day, about 10g or so of net carbs plus a couple of grams of fiber, several times a week.

I was concerned that the extra carbs could slow down weight loss, which for me is very slow already, but that has not been the case. In fact it seems to be picking up speed. My waist size is also shrinking, which is in some ways a better measure than weight. The Atkins book says to track both. I think the main factor is that I am less hungry later in the day and I am often satisfied with just two meals.

I should mention that I also recently reintroduced a bile salts supplement. I tried it months ago, had bad experiences with diarrhea, and was afraid to try it again. I am not having those problems now, so something may have adjusted since then.
 
My experience with "Paleo Diet" to this day.

I would have preferred ending up reading this thread before posting this message. It is especially a concern about the potassium which makes me to post it today. But I will come back to it later. At present...

A bit of prehistory

My interest for the nutrition as begin when I was 20 years old, with Montignac's method (feeding eliminating food with high Glycemic Index). I stayed there during many years.

About 2 years ago, I began deriving towards vegetarianism, I ate some cheese almost every day, eggs and a lot of leguminous plant, wholegrain cereals , sprouted seeds also. For oils especially olive oil, and often vegetables (especially crude). And meats and fish only when I was invited (rather often however).

About a year ago I stopped dairy products (except for organics goats' cheeses, almost every day). I also began «megadoses of vitamin C» (pure in powder) at this same moment .

About 2 months ago I abolished all dairy products and gluten (except undoubtedly traces difficult to avoid in my current environment). And almost at the same time I was reconciled with the meat.

And about 1 month ago I began to read "Life Without Bread" and I began...

Low-carb diet

First of all I tried to be held around 72g / day of carbohydrate, eat meat, fish, or eggs in every meal (three meals a day) in normal quantities and by adding quite a lot of fat (coconut oil, duck's fat, and ghee).

The third day I had kinds of cramps, first in calves, then in all the body, even the face. It have take me three days to find L-Carnitine in a herbalist's shop. I took my first tablet (500 mg) with my evening meal and the following morning, pain had already well diminished. I took a tablet by meal during some days, and, cramps having almost disappeared, I diminished it. It was also to economise tablets (30 pills in total) while waiting for an order from iherb.

I had tops and bottoms in my vitality. At the end of perhaps ten days, and while I had start reading TNAFANY and this thread, I went down to about 50g of carbohydrate / day, and rather quickly to about 30g / day.

It is difficult to put events in chronology, but almost at the same time I up my portions of proteins to try to attain the "1,5g minimum / kg of weight" pointed out somewhere in this thread. Then about 5 days afterwards (1 or 2 days before Christmas) I saw (always on this thread) that it was perhaps better to get down to 0,8-0,95g / kg and I divided almost by 2 my portions of proteins. At this moment my consumption of carbohydrates was often around 10g / d with tops in 30g / d from time to time.

When I diminished protein I diminished fat also a bit, and I had tendency to eat 10 or 20 grammes of almond and a small square of chocolate after almost all my meals (often my 2 only sources of carbohydrates besides eggs).

December 26th was probably my first day with about 1g of protein / kg.


Parenthesis on cold and body fat

My weight remained around 68 kg since the beginning of this experience / size 1m76.
I have some weight to loose, but it is difficult to say, because with the arriving of cold season I have tendency to take some weight (undoubtedly because I don't visit a lot the heated houses or at least overheated ones ). At the moment the temperatures of the 2 houses where I pass the most of my time didn't go less than 9°C, and we didn't judge necessary to heat them.
End of parenthesis


Just before Christmas I went out of L-Carnitine, I found some Potassium chloride and I take 600mg per meal (Corresponds in 8mEq of potassium – if somebody nows what that is?). I had my real-leg-cramp first time during this period. Then I received my 2 orders of complements (on December 28th and 29th I believe). Since I takes (from now outside the meals):

°Magnesium Citrate (100% pure powder): 1g (or Magnesium Malate: 400 mg) x 2 or 3 times / d (alternately)
°L-Carnitine (100% pure powder): 1g x 2 or 3 times / d
°Potassium Gluconate (100% pure powder): 1g x 2 or 3 times / d

And still: vitamin C: 3 g x 3 times / d (after meals), a lot of salt, and quite a lot of water (between meals - often "yogi Tea" infusion).


Question on the potassium

I read an advice in this thread yesterday to take 99mg of potatium twice a day.

I don't know the difference between various types of potassium but:

1) The dosage of DIFFU-K (potassium chloride 600 mg) is the following:
- preventive treatment: 2 - 3 capsules a day;
- remedial treatment: 5 - 12 capsules a day.
2) For the Potassium Gluconate it is said on the box: has a dietary supplement, take one level teaspoon (3,48g) daily.

This information seem contradictory. Any further information will be welcome.

It is indeed maybe wiser to abolished them and just continue eating bone broth.

Continuation

I was tired during a week or so, with difficulty getting up in the morning and obligation to make a nap (1 or 2 hours) in the late afternoon.

Yesterday morning I felt a notable difference and I didn't need to make siesta. I didn't celebrate the new year eve, but some phone calls held me awake til past 2 am.

This morning I got up at 10 am. I have only light pain in my calves.

I stopped almost every physical exercises twelve days ago (notably cycle that I practiced twice 15 or 30 kms a week). I am indeed going to take it back whitin 3 days or so.

Other problems during transition

I was constipated all first week long. I however didn't judge necessary to up my doses of vitamin C. I have itches / redness underneath hair pubic for 10 or 15 days. This as diminished since.


Benefit of regime

I can see a very notable reduction of back pain (especially the one at the low back, and cervical also.). They last from several years. I think that bicycling and later, perhaps, a session whith my etiopath, could regulate the problem.

Today, I seem to be on form (especially muscular part). I don't remenber have that feeling for at least a year. And I have a biggest motivation to do things.

Where am I with my reading

I have read LWB, TVM, TNAFANY, I am at the very beginning of Light Out, and my next reading will be PBPM and perhaps Rethinking thin (ongoing order).
And I have read till page 94 of this thread.

Today's Meals

from 11 am till 12 am (I finally ate almonds after a rather long pose):

Black radish (18 g)
Veal flank (70 g) cooked (over a gentle heat) in
Ghee (27 g)
Coconut oil - virgin and organic – (16 g)
Organic olive salted (14 g)
Cocoa (4,17 g about)
Almonds (8 g)

What according to my calculations must be:

Calories: 625

proteins: 20 g
lipids: 61 g
carbohydrates: 3 or 4 g


Then at 4:30 pm :

Black radish (17 g)
Wild salmon (90 g) reheat on
Ghee (33 g)
Coconut oil - virgin and organic – (14 g)
Organic olive salted (10 g)
Cocoa (4,17 g about)
Almonds (20 g)

total amount of the day, so far :

Calories: 1193

proteins: 46,79 g (including 6 g from the almond)
lipids: 113 g
carbohydrates: 6 or 7 g



Some more job to do and various questionings

Concerning the sources of proteins.
I have ask to locale butchers. It seem that they feed cow with grass, alfalfa, hay, and finished it with grain. Similar for the sheep. And the calves and the lambs are fed principally with milk of their aforementioned parents. So, at the moment I eat beef, calf and lamb. I don't dare to attack the pork, who is in my opinion, at best, raise with grain, and undoubtedly not in the outside.

I also find it difficult to start with offal. I have to dig the question.

I make bone broth, ofen, prefer cow or calf's one.

I eat outdoor eggs almost every day.

And I try to pass from sardine in olive oil to fresh fish.

For omega 3. I plane to start with cod liver if I tolerate the taste.

Détoxication.
I have in my possession some Alpha Lipoic Acid, some vitamin E (succinate), some CoQ10 and some N-Acetyl Cysteine. I haven't touch them yet. I don't know if it is the right moment to start with them.


I may have gone around the question.

Good night, forgiveness, thank you. And have fun.

Jérôme, age 34, FRANCE
 

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