"Life Without Bread"

[SeekinTruth]

Yeah, I understand what you're saying, Psalehesost. I've noticed that cooking with lard, bacon and eggs, especially, but pork burgers, etc. as well, everything turns out much better than with ghee. Also reusing the lard, it stays clear / light colored for longer, whereas ghee starts getting darker faster when reused.

Casein may be a problem to consider, as well. Although ghee should have no to very little casein left, maybe it's exactly like gluten in that even trace amounts (contamination) will do the damage?

 

[mada85]

The strange thing is that butter does not have this sluggish/tiredness effect on me. One would think that a sensitivity to ghee would imply a sensitivity to butter, but this is not the case for me. In fact I recently started to eat butter again (organic, non-salted), after many years of eating no dairy products apart from ghee and I notice no ill-effects from it. It imparts a lovely smooth flavour to food, and I usually add a large knob to my meals. For lunch I usually eat some ham with plenty of butter.

Perhaps it does have something to do with the diet of the cows from which the butter or ghee is obtained?

Also reusing the lard, it stays clear / light colored for longer, whereas ghee starts getting darker faster when reused.

Have you found any problems with re-using lard? How many times do you re-use it? There doesn't seem to be much information on the web about this, and it seems wasteful to throw away the lard that's left in the pan.

 

[Ollie]

The strange thing is that butter does not have this sluggish/tiredness effect on me. ... It imparts a lovely smooth flavour to food, and I usually add a large knob to my meals. For lunch I usually eat some ham with plenty of butter.
...

Also reusing the lard, it stays clear / light colored for longer, whereas ghee starts getting darker faster when reused.

Have you found any problems with re-using lard? How many times do you re-use it? There doesn't seem to be much information on the web about this, and it seems wasteful to throw away the lard that's left in the pan.

I use the lard from frying breakfast for steam frying a few vegetables (cabbage, brussels sprouts, celery, or onion - whatever is seasonal) to soak up the fat, that way it is only used twice, and the second time only at a low heat. Tea is similar to Endymion, butter in a sausage/ham sandwhich. :)

 

[SeekinTruth]

I can reuse lard about 3 times before there isn't much left to reuse (same with ghee, actually). But I don't have specific information on how many times it can be reused without problems. I do know that saturated fats are very stable and naturally resist oxidation.

I've been thinking about this issue of butter and ghee, and there could be many "hidden" factors involved. But it sure is puzzling. For example a person can be VERY sensitive to heavy cream, but not to butter. Well chemically, there's no difference between the two. I used to make homemade butter in the late 90's until the early 2000's. You take heavy cream, make sure it's chilled (to about 50 degrees F, or slightly colder, if I remember correctly) and then churn it -- I used to use a food processor. So the chilled temperature and the constant movement makes the fat molecules get a certain configuration / suspension? and turns the heavy cream into butter. In other words, again there's no chemical difference per se, but a physical difference in the arrangement of molecules, etc.

So all this implies that the fat has some protective effect against the casein, perhaps? And the butter's particular configuration has an extra protective effect that is lost in ghee where people who are VERY sensitive to casein (even in trace amounts) are concerned? I don't know, I'm just thinking out loud because it is quite puzzling.

 

[Courageous Inmate Sort]

I can reuse lard about 3 times before there isn't much left to reuse (same with ghee, actually). But I don't have specific information on how many times it can be reused without problems. I do know that saturated fats are very stable and naturally resist oxidation.

I've been thinking about this issue of butter and ghee, and there could be many "hidden" factors involved. But it sure is puzzling. For example a person can be VERY sensitive to heavy cream, but not to butter. Well chemically, there's no difference between the two. I used to make homemade butter in the late 90's until the early 2000's. You take heavy cream, make sure it's chilled (to about 50 degrees F, or slightly colder, if I remember correctly) and then churn it -- I used to use a food processor. So the chilled temperature and the constant movement makes the fat molecules get a certain configuration / suspension? and turns the heavy cream into butter. In other words, again there's no chemical difference per se, but a physical difference in the arrangement of molecules, etc.

So all this implies that the fat has some protective effect against the casein, perhaps? And the butter's particular configuration has an extra protective effect that is lost in ghee where people who are VERY sensitive to casein (even in trace amounts) are concerned? I don't know, I'm just thinking out loud because it is quite puzzling.

I found this reply at yahoo answers that brings information that is new to me. The autor mentions the book "Milk and Milk Products: Technology, Chemistry, and Microbiology", by A. Varnam and Jane P. Sutherland as its source, so it may have some truth in there.

_http://answers.yahoo.com/question/index?qid=20070731152801AAPDv2k

_http://books.google.com.br/books/about/Milk_and_Milk_Products_Technology_Chemis.html?id=WorGTC1YjsIC&redir_esc=y

Is cream to butter a chemical reaction?

is churning cream to make butter,is it a physical or chemical change.?

The answer is both. What? : )

In summary...

Intro:The chemical changes are subtle and consistes more of what are clalled "conformation" of the chmical in the case of butter, fats. In order for these transformation to take place physical aggitation is required. Also temperature has a signiivcant effect on the fat compositions.

Hold on to you hat. LOL
Basics:
Edible fats of vegetable, marine or animal origin all form three main types of crystal, the alpha, beta, and beta-prime forms. The alpha form is the least stable and existence in this form is usually transitory. The alpha form consists of fragile, translucent crystals 5 micometers in length. Thr bata-prime form consists of tiny, delicate crystals 1 micrometers and the beta form of relatively large and coarse crystals, which average 25-50 micrometers (um) in length.

Physical & Chemical Changes
Liquid fats and triacylglycerols cooled without agitation tend initially to form alpha crystals. Further cooling of the alpha form leads to tighter chain packing and a gradual transition to the beta form. Cooling with agitation. however, favors formation of the beta-prime form.

Milk fat is of the beta-prime form, as is beef tallow and whale oil. Pork lard, however, is of the beta type. Of vegetable fats commonly used in mararines and spreads, coconut, oilve, peanut, soy bean and sunflower oil are of the beta type, while rapeseed, cottonseed and palm oil are beta-prime.
Beta-prime crystals are desirable for butter, margarine and spreads and, in the latter two cases, a serious defect 'graininess' may result from the formation of large coarse beta-type crystals.

Physical and chemical modification of fat:

(a) Hydrogenation involves a reduction of the degree of unsaturation by addition of hydrogen to double bonds in the fatty acid chains.
Fat is usually hydrogenated by a batch process which involves mixing the oil with nuckel or another suitable catalyst and heating to 140-225 C under hydrogen at pressures up to 60 psi. Agitation is necessary to completely dissolve the oxygen, to ensure uniform contact between oil and catalyst, and to dissipate the heat of reaction.
In addition to saturation of some double bonds, hydrogenation may also lead to relocation and/or transformation from cis to trans configuration, the isomers being commonly referred to as iso acids.

(b) Inter-esterification is a chemical process by which the distridution of fatty acids among the tricylglycerols is altered. This results in a change from the unique fatty acid distribution patterns of many fats to a random distribution with a resultant change in the physical properties. Inter-esterification of milk fat results in an increase in the solid fat content at 35 C, which produces a 'tallowy' mouth-feel. Inter-esterification produces better nutritional and spreading properties of milk fat in butter.

(c) Fractionation preserves characteristic flavor of the milk fat.

Structure
Butter, maragarine and high-fat spreads exists as stable water in oil emulsions, the aqueous phase is relatively evenly distributed through the product and water droplets are, ideally, in the size range 2-4 um.
The fat phase of butter, margarine, and spreads consists of a crystal matrix of solid fat which retains the liquid oil in suspension. In addition churned products such as butter and some types of spred contain some globular fat which limits the tendency of the higher meltinf point crystals to form an over thick shelled type, and also contributes to the mouth-feel and spreadability by behaving like microscopic ball bearings.

So milk fat is treated in such a way as to allow it to form a fatty-oil-liquid mattrix. The alterations of the milk fats give them the characterisic melting point, mouth-feel, and flavor we are used to in butter, margarine, and spreads.
Source(s):
see profile
Milk & Milk Products A. Varnam and J. Sutherland
ISBN 0-412-45730-x

By the way, A. Varnam and Jane P. Sutherland also wrote the book "Meat and Meat Products: Technology, Chemistry and Microbiology". Has anyone read it? I can include it in my next amazon shipment to see if it is any good.

 

[mcb]

That's interesting, Endymion. I wonder if it is connected with cows that are fed grains and the milk from them is used to make butter and then the ghee is made from that butter? A similar suggestion was made recently about lard and grain fed pigs. I'm convinced that these animals that are fed grains (and I think in the case of cows, especially) are made sick and whether meat or milk products made from them will be problematic.

That is a very good question. I have not had any problems with ghee, but I have been buying a very pricey ($20/jar) organic ghee from grass-fed/pastured cows, "locally" produced. ("Local" around here seems to mean within 150 miles.) I chose it for the taste, but there may be a good reason why different varieties of ghee have different tastes!

 

[LQB]

That is a very good question. I have not had any problems with ghee, but I have been buying a very pricey ($20/jar) organic ghee from grass-fed/pastured cows, "locally" produced. ("Local" around here seems to mean within 150 miles.) I chose it for the taste, but there may be a good reason why different varieties of ghee have different tastes!

Another consideration is the common practice of feeding the dairy cows a "sweet feed" to keep them occupied during the milking process. The commercial version of this "sweet feed" is grain/corn-based (including other byproducts) and is usually spiked with something for the sweet tooth. In our area, most of the Amish use it during milking. The cows look forward to it and are much easier to handle during the process. The problem is that these conventional feeds contain GMO corn. Even if you were to use alfalfa pellets, (at least in the US) even the best will have some degree of GMO contamination due to cross-pollination. So, the quality of the ghee may also be a function of what sweet feed is used.

I watched this process up close at a good-sized dairy in Ecuador where the cows were very good looking and grazed on lush grass and plenty of hay. These cows lined up twice a day in chutes on their own to be let into the milk house 12 at a time. Their enthusiasm was for the expected sweet feed - just enough in a trough for a few minutes of milking by machine. So a good question might be "What is in your sweet feed?"

 

[soulshifter]

Hello Everyone! :D I'm happy to say that I am now caught up with the entire topic today, and it has been well worth it! I know you guys don't know me very well; but I have kept up with everyone's process on here, and I feel apart of the Paleo diet community here. This topic is very informative, and it is packed with good information that I encourage everyone to make it through at some point. There were many times while reading that I wanted to ask guidance or advice, but as I continued reading usually the answer came up within 10 pages or so before I even asked the question. Great networking guys!

I wanted to check in for the first time and give my progress like many have done here. Around March 2011 I started thinking to myself "I need to eat more healthy." I had basically been "counting calories" based on a formula that I had researched on how many calories I should be receiving in a 24 hour period. The results were feeling tired, having weird low blood sugar different times of the day, and going back and forth with weight loss and weight gain (despite working out in the gym 5 to 7 days a week) :( I am one of the skinnies although when I started I had lots of extra weight centered around my waist line.

After a few more months of trial and error with my diet, I came across this topic around the middle of July 2011. So I started reading Life Without Bread while reading the forum topic to see practical feedback. This lead to reading The Ultra Simple Diet next. At this point I felt comfortable enough with what I had read to start the elimination diet of the USD. When I finished the first 2 weeks of the elimination diet, I already had great results! I began to notice increased flexibility, less aching in my joints, steady energy, and some weight loss around the middle.

During that first two weeks I also read Ultra Metabolism and steadily worked through the forum. After the elimination diet was complete, I decided to limit my carb intake to <72gm per day according to the recommendations of LWB and continue my reading with The Art and Science of Low Carb Living. After completing that book, I made a slow one month transition to keeping carbs at <20gm per day while reading the next book, The New Atkins for the New You. This book gave me a structure to follow that I had been looking for and was very helpful. I am in the maintenance phase (since I do not need to lose anymore weight), and I have kept carbs <20gm while slowly testing and adding new foods back into my diet. I'm excited about starting Primal Body, Primal Mind today after watching one of Nora Gedgaudas' lectures online.

So far I have very little to no aching in my joints. (I was taking glucosamine for arthritis type pain which I was able to discontinue.) I have been able to stop taking the daily acid reflux medicine (I still have to take one Tums occasionally about once per week sometimes.) I have lost around 21 lbs from my "stubborn waist line," and I don't go hungry during the day with weird blood sugar lows. I stick to the "No gluten, No Dairy (except some butter), No Sugar, Low Carbs" way of life and so far so good!

 

[soulshifter]

Although I have had very few problems making the transition to low carbs, I did have what many have gone through with digestive problems for the first 2-3 months with the ups and downs of diarrhea and constipation. But, I was well informed what to do here with digestive enzymes temporarily along with eliminating certain veggies I was sensitive to. I thank you guys for everyone's input on that subject. Also because I was informed ahead of time about possible leg cramping, I was able to notice it as soon as it was very minor and take the appropriate Magnesium Citrate tabs (along with regulating enough salt in meals) to keep things from getting worse. I now have very little problems with bowels, and no leg cramping.



The supplements that I'm taking are Fish Oil capsules, Multivitamin, Calcium+D, Magnesium Citrate, Vitamin C, Milk Thistle, L-carnitine, ALA, CoQ10, L-glutathione, and Melatonin. My daily goals are to get >200gm of fat per day, I don't measure protein (although if I had to guess it is around 100gms), and <20gm of carbs per day. Weight is staying steady, although I have never really had what is described as the "Atkins edge" or the burst of abundant energy. It has been nice and steady with occasional dips.

Again thanks to all that have contributed and helped me and others out tremendously!

 

[Gertrudes]

That's interesting, Endymion. I wonder if it is connected with cows that are fed grains and the milk from them is used to make butter and then the ghee is made from that butter? A similar suggestion was made recently about lard and grain fed pigs. I'm convinced that these animals that are fed grains (and I think in the case of cows, especially) are made sick and whether meat or milk products made from them will be problematic.

That is a very good question. I have not had any problems with ghee, but I have been buying a very pricey ($20/jar) organic ghee from grass-fed/pastured cows, "locally" produced. ("Local" around here seems to mean within 150 miles.) I chose it for the taste, but there may be a good reason why different varieties of ghee have different tastes!

I had problems with ghee until I also swapped to a not so cheap grass fed ghee that I actually order from the states. I recently found it on Uk's ebay though. The grass fed ghee is a world of difference from the other.
They both look, smell, and taste so alike that I almost find it hard to believe that they are both ghee.

 

[seek10]

That's interesting, Endymion. I wonder if it is connected with cows that are fed grains and the milk from them is used to make butter and then the ghee is made from that butter? A similar suggestion was made recently about lard and grain fed pigs. I'm convinced that these animals that are fed grains (and I think in the case of cows, especially) are made sick and whether meat or milk products made from them will be problematic.

That is a very good question. I have not had any problems with ghee, but I have been buying a very pricey ($20/jar) organic ghee from grass-fed/pastured cows, "locally" produced. ("Local" around here seems to mean within 150 miles.) I chose it for the taste, but there may be a good reason why different varieties of ghee have different tastes!

I had problems with ghee until I also swapped to a not so cheap grass fed ghee that I actually order from the states. I recently found it on Uk's ebay though. The grass fed ghee is a world of difference from the other.
They both look, smell, and taste so alike that I almost find it hard to believe that they are both ghee.

I was using regular ghee before and recently I found grass fed organic ghee ( rather costly than even organic ghee). I feel OK with grass fed Ghee , but big NO NO with butter. I got a organic ghee( not grass feed) to see whether that makes any difference w.r.t grass fed. I thought of making ghee from grass fed milk and dropped the idea knowing process from Raw milk. It looks 2 or 3 spoons of ghee is made from liter of milk. Making from the Milk seems ridiculous, particularly I don't use any milk products. Only choice left is get grass fed organic butter and try to make it. Need to see who is selling it though here.

 

[SeekinTruth]

So if the grass fed ONLY is the real issue, that might explain why there's no problem with butter, ghee, or lard on my end. There's no such thing as any animal except grass fed in wild areas for cows, pigs, etc. here where I live. The only exception is if you get imported products (like butter, etc.) which we avoid. And another confirmation of this is the fact that the pork here is quite red, as was mentioned in that post by LQB, indicating that the animal has never been fed any grains at any time.

 

[Color]

So if the grass fed ONLY is the real issue, that might explain why there's no problem with butter, ghee, or lard on my end.

When I tried adding some butter to my meals it didn't feel right. My stomach was upset, so it's a no-no for me. With gee, I didn't have that strong reaction, but still didn't feel right, meaning - I was not feeling as energetic and good as I feel while cooking only on lard.

But yesterday my daughter bought a butter 'substitute' from a French company Fléchard, called 'Butter Selection'. It's unsalted, 80% fat, from which are 90% palm & coconut oils. The rest of ingredients stated are: butter, water, lactic culture, milk permeate, buttermilk and colouring agent 160A. Did any of you tried that or a similar product? Is it ok to introduce it to the diet if one can tolerate it? Can ghee be made from it?

There's no such thing as any animal except grass fed in wild areas for cows, pigs, etc. here where I live. The only exception is if you get imported products (like butter, etc.) which we avoid. And another confirmation of this is the fact that the pork here is quite red, as was mentioned in that post by LQB, indicating that the animal has never been fed any grains at any time.

I was so so lucky to have found a butcher near by who sells organic meat. The bacon is the best one I ever had and it looks beautiful, red just like I remember it from my childhood ;) The first time I found that place I ended in a long discussion with a butcher cause commented how shocked I was to discover they put sugar in the lard in other places... He told me he was the last generation of 'Practitioners' in his school, long time ago. They learned to do everything in the old ways, with no chemicals. The very next generation was educated on a new program and renamed into 'Chemists', self explanatory. It was a very interesting and informative conversation and he explained a lot of things to me. He was happy to talk of the old ways and was obviously disappointed he can not find someone to pass this knowledge and continue his business once he'll be gone.

He also told me how people before preserved the meat and other food only in the lard. He said it's an easy process and the food can be safely stored for years! I hope to see him soon and discuss that one in more details...

 

[StrangeCaptain]

But yesterday my daughter bought a butter 'substitute' from a French company Fléchard, called 'Butter Selection'. It's unsalted, 80% fat, from which are 90% palm & coconut oils. The rest of ingredients stated are: butter, water, lactic culture, milk permeate, buttermilk and colouring agent 160A. Did any of you tried that or a similar product? Is it ok to introduce it to the diet if one can tolerate it? Can ghee be made from it?

Personally, I would avoid these types of products:

http://www.sott.net/articles/show/230686-Everything-About-Fat

 

[SeekinTruth]

I agree with Patience and would avoid these products. Palm oil is a red flag, as are the other ingredients listed including coloring agent 160A.