"Life Without Bread"

nicklebleu said:
Yerba mate is a stimulant ... anyone experience with it longterm?
I used to drink quite a lot of it when I was young ...
Will try to find data and post if successful.

Mark Sisson has a post on Yerba Mate: __http://www.marksdailyapple.com/yerba-mate-benefits/#axzz1lTRcN8fL
And found another here: __http://altmedicine.about.com/od/herbsupplementguide/a/yerba_mate_weightloss.htm

The general gist is that it's probably ok to consume a moderate amount. Not sure if there is a big difference between Yerba mate and green/ black tea.
The fact that it has been linked to some forms of cancer is a bit troubling, but these are epidemiological studies which show an association, not a causation.
As mentioned by Mark, this could be due to the fact that tea is often consumed very hot, which in itself seems to be a risk factor for oral cancers.
But the data is very ambiguous and vage.

Not sure what to do of this at this stage ...
 
Well, I've read that black tea is anti-inflammatory and anti-oxidant. Can anybody find more on that? I'm just not ready/willing to give up my tea because it gets me through the day. I have about 5 or 6 cups a day, two or three hot, two or three poured over ice.
 
Laura said:
Well, I've read that black tea is anti-inflammatory and anti-oxidant. Can anybody find more on that? I'm just not ready/willing to give up my tea because it gets me through the day. I have about 5 or 6 cups a day, two or three hot, two or three poured over ice.

I'm about the same ... if tea is out it's down to water and broth ... yikes!

But I suspect there will not be much information besides epidemiological studies, which essentially are worthless, because you cannot control for all variables. For instance I read a study recently showing an association of breast cancer in Hongkong women who drank green tea ...

It's the same problem with smoking: You might well be able to show that smoking is associated with lung cancer, but then smoking is usually associated with lower socio-economic status which itself is associated with higher cancer rates, etc ...

The other problem is that many vegetables are full of nutrients and anti-oxidants. But then also they are full of anti-nutrients (e.g. phytates), and these are hardly ever mentioned or analysed. So the overall benefit or risk hasn't been established. Maybe it's like smoking ... beneficial for some and harmful for some others ...?

I have done a search in the past re black tea but I didn't come up with meaningful data.
 
Hi everyone,

I'm still working my way through this thread, trying to learn all I can about the diet, how to avoid any possible grave errors. I know I'm going to have a few questions when I get to the end but right now I would like to say a little something about Atreides and The List, because that's about where I am at the moment. I know people have posted a lot about it, and maybe everything has been said, but I just wanted to add my thoughts, too.

Firstly, I want to thank you, Atreides, for writing that essay, and for expressing your thoughts so darned well. You addressed some very personal and sensitive issues, and had me laughing out loud in the process. Furthermore, you took an issue that I had begun grappling with when I started looking at the diet changes, and lay it out very clearly. I was approaching it from a different angle, but arriving at some similar conclusions. Your thoughts were more than a little helpful.

I had been finding it difficult to make all the necessary changes due to budget constraints, and had decided that it would probably be doable if I simply had one single daily menu that met all the necessary nutritional requirements. I realised that I could live with such an arrangement. I still haven't arrived at a single daily menu, but I have been eating nothing but bacon and eggs every morning for almost a year. And I'm not bored of them! Reading your thoughts on the other aspects of why this is a smart way to go has inspired me to go further with that. My list continues to shrink, and I thank you for your help with that.

Another thought that struck me was the huge irony involved with all of this. Although I wouldn't wish a life-threatening experience such as yours on anyone, I couldn't help thinking that, not only did "they" not succeed in their attempt at bumping someone off with this nasty bug, but this violent attack against the group eventually led to some more important discoveries concerning a healthier diet. Which represents more knowledge and thus more protection. And it sounds as though you, personally, have grown exponentially from the experience, hellish though it was. "Their" plan seems to have backfired on "them".

IN YOUR FACE, "THEY"!!

My final thought is concerning the subject of not eating for the purpose of pleasure. I was talking to a friend about the idea of eating pretty much the same thing every day. Not in trying to sell the idea to them, just how I felt that I would be fine doing it. I was talking about what the bare necessities are for human survival - eating, sleeping and protection from the elements - and that eating every day is what is important, not eating something different every day. I don't have to sleep in a different bed every day, do I? Their response was that eating a wide variety of foods is one of the great joys in life. And I said, well maybe, but it's not a necessity.

But later I thought more about the statement - it's one of the great joys in life. Is it? Really? I think not. I don't think people experience anything even remotely close to "great joy", or even pleasure, by eating a different menu every day.

If someone were to ask me what brings me, or has brought me, great joy, or pleasure in my life, my mind would most likely start searching through my most cherished memories - my wedding day, both days that my children were born - moments like those. Somehow, I can't see my mind turning to last night's meat loaf or Monday's bowl of Fruit Loops.

I mean, how often does a person find themselves at work thinking about how great a supper they had the previous evening, anyway? Generally, they don't. Why not? Because it's already forgotten! Sure, it may have tasted really great while they were eating it, but within a very short time the experience is forgotten, and that's only because they aren't hungry anymore. That's how important it really is to them, and that's how much they take food for granted. All that was really important was satisfying the hunger. They would feel no different at that moment if they had eaten the same meal every night of the week, because they still wouldn't even be thinking about it.

There are certain meals that one might think of, like last years Christmas dinner. But that's not just because of the meal, that's also because of the occasion, the possibly rare gathering of the whole family, and everything else involved. That is a special meal because of all that went into it, all that was happening around it, and the fact that it doesn't happen every day.

But the meals we eat on a day to day basis are simply another part of our routine. And when we are forced to eat last night's leftovers because we don't have enough time to fix something different between work and getting the kids to their music lessons and soccer practices, nobody cares what they eat, they're just glad they had something to provide the energy they need to get through it all. Suddenly, variety no longer holds any importance for them because they're thinking about something else. The variety is forgotten like last night's meatloaf.

I think the only time anyone decides it's important to have such a diverse menu is the moment someone presents them with the idea that they might have to give it up - AAAAAAH! Most people would be happy with the same meal every day if the only alternative was to starve to death.
 
Very insightful, Mochachapeau, and beautifully expressed. I think that's the crux of the matter, too, that food is presented to people as something that will bring them joy in a life that is often joyless for so many other reasons. It's really sad.
 
From the European Heart Journal:

It doesn't only point out the favourable effects of black tea, but also the adverse effects of milk/casein when consumed with black tea.

Quotes from the study:

Abstract

Aims Experimental and clinical studies indicate that tea exerts protection against cardiovascular diseases. However, a question of much debate is whether addition of milk modifies the biological activities of tea. We studied the vascular effects of tea, with or without milk, in humans and elucidated the impact of individual milk proteins in cell culture experiments, with isolated rat aortic rings and by HPLC analysis.

Methods and results A total of 16 healthy female volunteers consumed either 500 mL of freshly brewed black tea, black tea with 10% skimmed milk, or boiled water as control. Flow-mediated dilation (FMD) was measured by high-resolution vascular ultrasound before and 2 h after consumption. Black tea significantly improved FMD in humans compared with water, whereas addition of milk completely blunted the effects of tea. To support these findings, similar experiments were performed in isolated rat aortic rings and endothelial cells. Tea induced vasorelaxation in rat aortic rings and increased the activity of endothelial nitric oxide synthase by phosphorylation of the enzyme in endothelial cells. All effects were completely inhibited by the addition of milk to tea. Of the various kinds of milk proteins, the caseins accounted for these inhibiting effects of milk, probably by formation of complexes with tea catechins.

Conclusion Milk counteracts the favourable health effects of tea on vascular function. This finding indicates the need for particular awareness in the interpretation and design of studies comprising nutritional flavonoids.

Introduction

Consumption of tea has been inversely associated with cardiovascular morbidity and mortality.1 A broad body of evidence from experimental and clinical studies indicates that tea exerts antioxidative, anti-inflammatory, and vasodilating effects, thereby rendering protection against cardiovascular diseases.2,3 As the worldwide consumption of tea is second only to water, the beneficial effects of tea represent important public health issues. However, up to now, it is not known whether addition of milk to tea, as widely practiced in the UK, influences these vasoprotective properties. We therefore investigated the effects of tea with and without milk on endothelial function as a sensitive parameter of vascular wall homeostasis.4 Many pathophysiological conditions in the cardiovascular system are characterized by attenuated production of protective vasoactive substances in endothelial cells, resulting in a condition known as endothelial dysfunction.5 Undisturbed flow-mediated dilation (FMD) of human blood vessels is a hallmark of a functional endothelium, with impairment of FMD representing an early marker of vascular dysfunction.4,6,7

We address the question whether milk affects the beneficial effects of tea on endothelial function. We show here that black tea significantly improves endothelial function in humans, whereas the addition of milk completely blunts this amelioration. In our in vitro experiments, we demonstrate that milk caseins account for these inhibiting effects of milk.

Discussion

The most striking finding of our study is that addition of milk to black tea completely prevents the biological activity of tea in terms of improvement of endothelial function. Our results thus provide a possible explanation for the lack of beneficial effects of tea on the risk of heart disease in the UK, where milk is usually added to tea.18 To follow the common practice of drinking tea in the UK, we added 10% milk to our black tea preparations. The well-established health benefits of tea, as described by numerous studies,1–3 are mainly attributed to various flavonoids, especially catechins.19 Previously, we have shown that the major catechin in tea, epigallocatechin-3-gallate (EGCG), induces eNOS activation in endothelial cells and leads to vasorelaxation in rat aortic rings.11 In the present study, we found a particular, selective decrease in the concentrations of a number of catechins after centrifugation of freshly brewed tea with milk compared with tea without milk, which suggests complex formation between catechins and milk proteins. Concentrations of other tea compounds were not affected by addition of milk. It was previously reported that polyphenols can bind to proteins,20,21 and interaction between flavanoids and proteins affects their antioxidant capacity in vitro.22 There is some evidence that polyphenols possess a high binding affinity for proline-rich proteins such as caseins.23 A very recent study demonstrated the non-covalent cross-linking of EGCG by caseins, emphasizing the interaction of tea catechins with milk caseins.24

Interactions of food-derived flavonoids with milk proteins may impede their physiological effects. An in vitro gastrointestinal model to simulate the conditions in the human digestive tract demonstrated that addition of milk to tea inhibited its antimutagenic activity.25 Tea possesses strong antioxidant properties, in vitro and in vivo, that are affected by addition of milk.26,27 In analogy, consumption of dark chocolate that contains epicatechin, but not milk chocolate or dark chocolate with extra milk, increased the antioxidant capacity of human blood plasma.28 However, it should be noted that other studies failed to establish an effect of milk on antioxidant properties of tea.29,30 The reasons for these discrepant findings are largely unknown but may be attributed to different physiological/experimental endpoints (e.g. in vitro and in vivo, and assays for measurements of antioxidant activities).

In conclusion, milk may counteract the favourable health effects of tea on vascular function. The finding that the tea-induced improvement of vascular function in humans is completely attenuated after addition of milk may have broad implications on the mode of tea preparation and consumption. In addition, it indicates that caution is warranted in the design of studies involving nutritional flavonoids.

The referenced studies 1-3 dealing with the beneficial properties of tea are:

1 Stensvold I, Tverdal A, Solvoll K, Foss OP Tea consumption relationship to cholesterol, blood pressure, and coronary and total mortality. Prev Med 1992;21:546-553.

2 Sano J, Inami S, Seimiya K, Ohba T, Sakai S, Takano T, Mizuno K Effects of green tea intake on the development of coronary artery disease. Circ J 2004;68:665-670.

3 Nakachi K, Matsuyama S, Miyake S, Suganuma M, Imai K Preventive effects of drinking green tea on cancer and cardiovascular disease: epidemiological evidence for multiple targeting prevention. Biofactors 2000;13:49-54.
 
Thank you Finduilas! That's what I needed to know. I was SURE it was good for me because I just feel so much better when I drink a good, strong, cup of black tea with a bit of xylitol!
 
Laura said:
Very insightful, Mochachapeau, and beautifully expressed. I think that's the crux of the matter, too, that food is presented to people as something that will bring them joy in a life that is often joyless for so many other reasons. It's really sad.

Yeah, as mochachapeau said, any "joy" will be very short lived, just like anything else that is attempted to substitute for real fulfillment in life or "remedy" something deep with quick fixes. Plus the most unhealthy foods are the most addictive AND appetite increasing. It all leads to yet another vicious circle.
 
Laura said:
Thank you Finduilas! That's what I needed to know. I was SURE it was good for me because I just feel so much better when I drink a good, strong, cup of black tea with a bit of xylitol!

Thanks for posting that from me as well. Very interesting findings.
 
While checking material for Natural Radiation Protection Therapies for Coping With the Fallout of the Fukushima Nuclear Meltdown I stumbled upon the concept that black and green tea could both have radioprotective effects when taken either before or after exposure to radiation. This anti-radiation effect was observed in several Japanese studies, and studies from China also suggest that the ingredients in tea are radioactive antagonists. Tea catechins are associated with antioxidant properties and can have radio-protective effects when taken both before and after irradiation. A search on pubmed shows some studies: _http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed?term=tea%2C%20radiation
 
SeekinTruth said:
Laura said:
Thank you Finduilas! That's what I needed to know. I was SURE it was good for me because I just feel so much better when I drink a good, strong, cup of black tea with a bit of xylitol!

Thanks for posting that from me as well. Very interesting findings.

Great, because I was thinking in the last days also about that topic if black tea is good or not (and bought then some green-tea) and now to have some data which confirms it. :)
 
mocachapeau said:
I had been finding it difficult to make all the necessary changes due to budget constraints, and had decided that it would probably be doable if I simply had one single daily menu that met all the necessary nutritional requirements.

I don't know if this will help mocachapeau, but I've been finding that I am spending much less in food because the amount of fat I eat lessens my need for meat. I never bought free range, organic, or grass fed meat before because it was out of my budget. Well, now, not only all of my meat is either free range or organic, but even the fat. It did take me a couple of months to adjust, and initially I also found that I was spending more and that worried me. However, after an year of playing around with how much fat versus meat and vegetables to eat, I reached a stable place, and my food expenses have gone way down. But then again, I do eat A LOT of fat.

mocachapeau said:
But later I thought more about the statement - it's one of the great joys in life. Is it? Really? I think not. I don't think people experience anything even remotely close to "great joy", or even pleasure, by eating a different menu every day.

I fully agree mocachapeau. It is an extremely hard concept for people to grasp, that food can be purely taken as fuel, not comfort. We are so entrenched in the need of finding external sources of comfort to buffer uncomfortable feelings that the idea of not having them is not only extremely threatening, but also unthinkable! And I speak for myself, having used food as a source of comfort for many years (and I mean that literally), having found a way that deeply nourishes me AND eliminates ALL cravings is, for me, pure joy, and extremely liberating!

During Christmas I made some paleo inspired snacks with nut and coconut fat, shredded coconut, nuts and stevia. It woke up the long gone cravings again. I had even forgotten how that felt, the sense of almost compulsiveness when eating those foods, the resulting irritability and overall greater propensity to addictive behavior. It was subtle, but it was there. This is in no way joyful! But then again, you only notice that someone is stepping on your foot when that person steps away. In other words, you don't realize how unhappy and unhealthy you are by eating "drug foods" you are, until you completely change your diet. But the big however here, is that changing to a paleo looking diet is equated with restriction, lack of variety, and unbalance. And so we enter a vicious cycle where everyone just keeps eating the same thing...

ADDED: just wanted to add that eating for nourishment doesn't necessarily mean that one doesn't enjoy his food. Personnaly, I think I enjoy it even more, but in a different way. My taste buds feel much more "alive", and I notice that I respect more what I eat.
 
Gawan said:
SeekinTruth said:
Laura said:
Thank you Finduilas! That's what I needed to know. I was SURE it was good for me because I just feel so much better when I drink a good, strong, cup of black tea with a bit of xylitol!

Thanks for posting that from me as well. Very interesting findings.

Great, because I was thinking in the last days also about that topic if black tea is good or not (and bought then some green-tea) and now to have some data which confirms it. :)

You're all very welcome :flowers: I admit I found the question interesting because I drink quite a bit of organic black tea myself, and my Dad drinks a lot of green tea due to the anti-inflammatory and anti-oxidant properties. It always makes me feel quite energetic and does a good job of keeping me warm in this miserable weather :)
 
About food being a "great joy in life". I'm wondering if the addiction to gluten, sugars, etc. could make it seem more joyful? Satisfying the addiction creates a feeling of joy.

Also, I have enjoyed a couple of cups of black tea a day and finds that it helps me with certain problems I have so I'm glad to see that it does have some quite beneficial qualities.

Thank you all for this data.
 
Nienna Eluch said:
Also, I have enjoyed a couple of cups of black tea a day and finds that it helps me with certain problems I have so I'm glad to see that it does have some quite beneficial qualities.

Thank you all for this data.

That is good news! I'm also very fond of drinking black tea.

Also, the healthiest, fittest, 91 year old guy I know always says when asked the secret to his youthfulness that he drinks black tea all day long.
 
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