"Life Without Bread"

[RedFox]

To add what Laura says (re: fat causing nausea and not being able to eat pork - I had both), the chapter in Primal Body Primal Mind has some good advice on digestion. I'd been detoxing gradually as well as being gluten/dairy free for a few years, and I still had energy and digestive problems when I switched to the Paleo diet (I'm in my early 30's). One of the most recent useful things was knowing that without enough stomach acid, things would not digest properly and cause nausea/bloating/diarrhea about an hour or two after eating. Supplementing with HCI fixed that....then it returned. Turns out my stomach had started producing enough of its own acid, and the added HCI was causing the undigested content of my stomach to enter the guts too soon.
Now I generally don't need HCI, but if I feel heavy just after a meal or have trouble eating fat (or feel nauseous just after eating fat) its usually a sign I need to take HCI.

 

[Gaby]

Another example of bad research which seeks to frame saturated fat... Today I stumble upon this blog post:

So back to another sexy term. Not epigenetics this time but the microbiome. There are studies out there that show that the gut midrobiome of the obese differs from that of the lean (and fecal transplants from lean to obese can make them lose fat). This study seems to show that saturated fats shift gut microbiota profiles toward those typical of obese individuals, and that dietary fatty acid saturation influences shifts in gut microbiota independently of changes in body mass.

Oh noes, don't tell me that my saturated fat bias is being challenged?

Say what? So I went and downloaded the study and my suspicions were right. What they call saturated fat was actually fully hydrogenated soy bean oil mixed with soybean oil. These are scientists who are doing some pretty sophisticated research and yet are unable to get some pretty basic things as fats right?!

The good news is that when I was going to copy and paste the whole section from the study showing how they used transfats into the blog in order to challenge his saturated fat bias, I realized that someone already did it for me.

Are you eating much "hydrogenated soybean oil"?

Gut bacteria profiles of Mus musculus at the phylum and family levels are influenced by saturation of dietary fatty acids.

2.2. Diet composition and analysis

Isocaloric semisynthetic diets containing a total of 13.4% fat by weight (32.5% of kJ from fat) were prepared by Harlan-Teklad (Madison, WI). The n-3 PUFA-rich (TD.08160), n-6 PUFA-rich (TD.04230) and SFA-rich (TD.04229) diets were created by supplementing a nutritionally complete diet with flaxseed oil, soybean oil or a mixture of soybean oil and fully hydrogenated soybean oil (Archer Daniels Midland, Decatur, IL), respectively.

Hydrogenated soybean oil is pure evil. Now people should only start making the basic difference between healthy saturated fat and trans fats!

 

[RandyBarnes]

Upon cursory examination, I'm noticing digestive issues/concerns to be voiced with some frequency on this thread. I'm generally not one to offer unsolicited advise, but in this case I'd like to suggest a product line that has served me well and might be of benefit to others. The digestive enzyme formulations produced by Kirkman Labs (namely Enzym-Complete/DPP-IV) are the most comprehensive and efficacious I'm aware, with stringent testing protocols that minimize substances known to affect hypersensitive individuals. I can recommend them without reservation for both generalized broad-spectrum support as well as specific needs.

Randy

 

[RandyBarnes]

Edit to last: Replace "advise" with "advice" and forgive lax typing standards.

Thanks

 

[hesperides]

Hey loreta,

For what it's worth, I'd wait and see what the doctor says to rule out any possible problems you may be unaware of. Are you taking ox bile and can you say exactly what carbs you are eating? Also, do you take milk thistle? It may be that you're having trouble with sluggish liver.

My carbs are some vegs and I measured them with my balance. Also, I look for mild thistle but I am unable for now to find here, in Spain. My vegs are broccoli, sweet potatoes, sukini, cauliflower, and lettuce. That's all.

Thank you.

I´m also leaving in Spain and milk thistle is widely available. Just in case you didn´t know, the Spanish name is "Cardo Mariano".
Hope this helps you.

 

[RandyBarnes]

As I recall Thisilyn is the brand of milk thistle subject to the bulk of clinical research. It is produced in Germany and distributed in the US by Nature's Way.


Mod's note: Corrected (subject to) as suggested by the author of the post.

 

[Aiming]

Anyway I had 2 extra pork patties and some eggs this morning and I'm feeling somewhat better. I think it may be undernutrition or something.

Did you read this article on SoTT? http://www.sott.net/articles/show/242308-What-s-With-The-Antagonism-About-Low-Carb-From-The-Paleo-Community-Lately-

The general conclusion (from the comments under the source article) is that the paleo diet goes wrong because of lack of fat....people just aren't eating enough! Secondary to that, there digestion isn't processing the fat (so its just like they aren't eating enough fat)....
I've also noticed personally that if I eat food that my body doesn't like, I might as well have eaten nothing at all because it seems that nothing gets absorbed when I do.

I've experienced problems with fat digestion as well these recent days. Because of the overdosing of salt I reported about a few days ago, I've hardly taken any salt at all since then, and this made me experience how my stomach isn't able to digest the fat without outside support. Just not enough HCl in there. I also, for the first time, felt sick from eating fat. So I upped the salt dosage again, though carefully. In looking back, it seems that all along, it was the salt that even enabled the digestion of fat. I've taken digestive enzymes only occasionally because I don't have many of them (finances) and want to keep them for when it's really urgent. And I really need to 'work on' my liver, too.

Well, it sure is interesting to experiment in this way: observe, adjust, observe, re-adjust... and, step-by-step, gain a better understanding of one's physical system.

 

[beetlemaniac]

beetlemaniac, it sounds like there may be a problem with digestion, as minced pork will be easier to digest. Just a thought. As your digestion improves, you may come to tolerate all pork better.

What Prodigal Son suggested may help in the meantime.

I'll take that into account, thanks. Also on a positive note, I am seeing a reduction in the reaction from the pork. Although it's quite temperamental so it may come again. Hopefully the HCl will sort it out, as it has for Redfox. Also the explanation that Laura gave about detox reactions makes me feel better about it, that there could be something just sorting itself out in the system. Although I started the diet a pretty long time ago, I think the introduction of better quality fats from well-raised meat had triggered the reaction, although I'm not sure.

Yeah, it is crazy making, considering your age and you are still learning to get a hold of the diet. I think that as you are able to digest better, your HDL will go up.

Those tests will do (lipoprotein electrophoresis and lipoprotein a will give you the info you need) and with a little bit of effort, you might be able to explain their importance to any doctor. Here is an old article, but it is a review, so it explains things into more detail.

You can download the full article on the link. There seems to be no consensus as to which percentage of small evil LDL in lab tests should constitute pattern B. But, if there is a lot of small LDL, it is bad, regardless if tests categorize them as pattern A based on some arbitrary threshold. From the health catastrophe we see in the world today, people who are eating a diet rich in carbs and processed foods should have a lot of small LDL particles which is skyrocketing the risk of cardiovascular health.

With all the crazy making around you, you might need to start your own database of articles like this. Usually they are referenced in articles such as the one you quoted.

Thanks for the tips. I've started collecting papers and reading them, it's a little dry I have to say, but it's really interesting to get involved with the scientist's point of view of things. There's a thread that has compiled some papers as well: Studies to give your doctor. I will look up on those tests to see exactly what they measure and how to interpret the results. The paper you suggested already has examples of the electrophoresis results which are useful as well. Since there's no consensus it's up to me and my understanding to be able to communicate the results to others. But it seems clear from some of the papers I've read that low triglycerides correlate with larger LDL... still that would not be enough to convince most docs. I think mainstream doctors don't seem to know what triglycerides really signify. I'll try to study a bit more about them to understand how they are created and how they affect a person when following a high-carb diet.

 

[SeekinTruth]

beetlemaniac, it sounds like there may be a problem with digestion, as minced pork will be easier to digest. Just a thought. As your digestion improves, you may come to tolerate all pork better.

What Prodigal Son suggested may help in the meantime.

I'll take that into account, thanks. Also on a positive note, I am seeing a reduction in the reaction from the pork. Although it's quite temperamental so it may come again. Hopefully the HCl will sort it out, as it has for Redfox. Also the explanation that Laura gave about detox reactions makes me feel better about it, that there could be something just sorting itself out in the system. Although I started the diet a pretty long time ago, I think the introduction of better quality fats from well-raised meat had triggered the reaction, although I'm not sure.

Hmm. Interesting. That may well be a detox reaction, as well. The high quality fat should probably do that -- especially with the right omega 3 to 6 ratios -- also given that high omega 6 content would make cooking/heat damage a problem. And now, with the removal of that problem, maybe other physiological processes started? Also, it takes a while to change the body's fat composition -- so being in ketosis will burn old, toxic fats (oxidized, glycated, trans fats, etc.) and toxins stored in them, also indicating that a detox reaction could have been triggered. OSIT.

Yeah, it is crazy making, considering your age and you are still learning to get a hold of the diet. I think that as you are able to digest better, your HDL will go up.

Those tests will do (lipoprotein electrophoresis and lipoprotein a will give you the info you need) and with a little bit of effort, you might be able to explain their importance to any doctor. Here is an old article, but it is a review, so it explains things into more detail.

You can download the full article on the link. There seems to be no consensus as to which percentage of small evil LDL in lab tests should constitute pattern B. But, if there is a lot of small LDL, it is bad, regardless if tests categorize them as pattern A based on some arbitrary threshold. From the health catastrophe we see in the world today, people who are eating a diet rich in carbs and processed foods should have a lot of small LDL particles which is skyrocketing the risk of cardiovascular health.

With all the crazy making around you, you might need to start your own database of articles like this. Usually they are referenced in articles such as the one you quoted.

Thanks for the tips. I've started collecting papers and reading them, it's a little dry I have to say, but it's really interesting to get involved with the scientist's point of view of things. There's a thread that has compiled some papers as well: Studies to give your doctor. I will look up on those tests to see exactly what they measure and how to interpret the results. The paper you suggested already has examples of the electrophoresis results which are useful as well. Since there's no consensus it's up to me and my understanding to be able to communicate the results to others. But it seems clear from some of the papers I've read that low triglycerides correlate with larger LDL... still that would not be enough to convince most docs. I think mainstream doctors don't seem to know what triglycerides really signify. I'll try to study a bit more about them to understand how they are created and how they affect a person when following a high-carb diet.

There's also this full recent article on SOTT: https://www.sott.net/articles/show/242558-Metabolic-Syndrome-Caused-by-a-High-Fructose-and-Relatively-Low-Fat-Low-Cholesterol-Diet-

It goes into a LOT of detail on the mechanisms and physiological processes of cholesterol, fat, glycation, triglycerides, etc. And has 76 References cited to other studies/papers, so it's a great addition to the database.

 

[Oxajil]

Small update:

Interestingly, I've noticed that I feel most energetic with lard. Butter and tallow come in second, but they're good too. But lard is a great energizer!

I actually didn't know that my intake of fat wasn't as much as it should be until I accidently added extra butter to my eggs and found out I wasn't hungry at all afterwards. So now I kinda know how much fat I need in order to not go hungry anymore. Plus, my protein intake has lessened even more now.
I am still experiencing some bloating however, but soon my enzymes should arrive, and hopefully that'll help ease the bloating. Luckily there is no pain or any other kind of discomfort going on, my belly is just bigger than usual, like 24/7 :p It kinda feels like digestion is happening in slow-motion.

Another thing to mention, is that I still haven't had my period for about 6 months now. As I was doing the diet, the first few times of having my period were almost symptom-free, then I didn't get any anymore. It doesn't feel negative or anything, it actually feels like I'm saving energy, somehow.

Just thought I'd share how I'm doing so far.

 

[RedFox]

Another thing to mention, is that I still haven't had my period for about 6 months now. As I was doing the diet, the first few times of having my period were almost symptom-free, then I didn't get any anymore. It doesn't feel negative or anything, it actually feels like I'm saving energy, somehow.

If you where not eating enough fat, and you are not digesting enough fat (bloating being a symptom) then this may be the result of lack of resources (starvation)....hence saving energy. So it may something to take seriously. *edit to add* although I may have jumped the gun a bit here on reflection as I now recall several forum members reporting the same.

One thing that seems to have helped kick start my digestion (as well as everything else) was zinc (at least an hour away from meals) - it is important in creating stomach acid (along with other things like manganese).
Adequate magnesium (transdermal magnesium doesn't help anymore) at least an hour away from meals is also very important.

Have you read the chapter in Primal Body Primal Mind on digestion?

 

[SeekinTruth]

You may want to look into doing a liver cleanse too, Oxajil (and anyone else having digestion issues). I just posted in this thread with a link to another thread, so you can decide if it's something you'll want to try. http://cassiopaea.org/forum/index.php/topic,13804.0.html

 

[Oxajil]

If you where not eating enough fat, and you are not digesting enough fat (bloating being a symptom) then this may be the result of lack of resources (starvation)....hence saving energy.

But the absence of my menstrual period happened way before the bloating started to happen. Normally I'd have periods that would last for 7 days, the first day being the most painful. When I started the diet, and I had begun my period, the pain reduced for about 99% and it only lasted for 3 days (plus blood loss reduced tremendeously as well). Then, the next time I would have had my period, it didn't happen. I almost know for sure, that it was the increase of healthy fats that caused this.
I know it sounds pretty serious in a way, because a menstrual period is like something that is seen as normal to have, but maybe in my case and in the cases of others who are experiencing the same on this diet, it is normal to not have it? I don't know.

One thing that seems to have helped kick start my digestion (as well as everything else) was zinc (at least an hour away from meals) - it is important in creating stomach acid (along with other things like manganese).

I do have zinc supplements, but I remember the last few times that I took it, it made me feel very nauseous. I could try it again, of course and see what happens.

Adequate magnesium (transdermal magnesium doesn't help anymore) at least an hour away from meals is also very important.

Yep. So far, magnesium seems to help me best with my bloating issues.

Have you read the chapter in Primal Body Primal Mind on digestion?

Yes, I have. I do have some supplements as mentioned in the book, but I can't get them all because money is tight. As the enzymes will arrive soon, I'll use them for some time, and see if that works out. I also went through all the symptoms of adaptation to the diet and took the necessary supplements during that time (this was at the beginning), then I was fine for a long time. But when the temperature went way down, I started bloating, and at the same time the bloating started, my stomach would not allow me to eat the amount of protein that I would normally eat before. So whatever happened during the time winter started, caused me to eat much less protein and a lot more fat instead. Sorry if this sounds vague!

You may want to look into doing a liver cleanse too, Oxajil (and anyone else having digestion issues). I just posted in this thread with a link to another thread, so you can decide if it's something you'll want to try. http://cassiopaea.org/forum/index.php/topic,13804.0.html

I'll look into that ST, thanks for mentioning. Thanks for the help guys.

 

[RedFox]

But when the temperature went way down, I started bloating, and at the same time the bloating started, my stomach would not allow me to eat the amount of protein that I would normally eat before. So whatever happened during the time winter started, caused me to eat much less protein and a lot more fat instead.

Now you come to mention it, I think the same thing happened to me. Perhaps this is our default winter state?
I've had to cut down the amount of fat I was eating a little and increase the amount of protein again recently, but it has been getting warmer and I've noticed all the insects and spring flowers have started coming out.
Check out the link I put in the previous post if you get a chance, lots of good info on the paleo diet and menstrual cycles.

 

[Gertrudes]

Oxajil, I just thought I'd share my very similar experience with you.
I have also experienced bloating in the beginning of the diet. In my case I think this was triggered by the Candida protocol I started doing one year ago that really made my gut upset, and then it became a little worse when I went full on paleo. It got bad enough for people to ask me if I was pregnant.

Well, in my case I had to reduce protein A LOT. I hadn't realized how much less protein I needed when doing paleo. I also greatly reduced my meal portions and increased my fat intake. To be honest, my meals right now are very small, but I eat a lot of fat. I'm never hungry, and the fact that portions sizes are so small has REALLY helped my gut.

Another thing I did was take L-glutamine for many months. My huge jar is now coming to an end and I won't be buying more afterwards as I feel that I no longer need it. I also took lactoferrin for a while, and peppermint capsules to help my gut. For a short period, I took Oxy-cleanse. I noticed that my bloating significantly decreased when I started taking these supplements, to then disappear completely after reducing meal sizes and protein.

About not having periods...I haven't had mine since August 2010, except for once in October 2011. In my case I know the period stopped due to physical and emotional stress, but I'm inclined to think that the fact that it hasn't yet appeared may be emotional, but also diet related. The last time I had it in 2010, I had just started the Ultra Simple Diet, where I was only eating meat and veggies, which is similar to our current paleo diet, except for the excess of veggies and not as much fat. For the first time in my life, ever, I also had a painless period. Up until then I had suffered from pain that had, on occasion, led me to the hospital. Interesting how so many of us women have experienced either total lack of pain, or greatly reduced period pain with the diet!

So, all in all, I think that several of us are having similar experiences with the diet, now we just need to figure out what is causing what, and put the pieces o the puzzle together.

Added: words for clarity