"Life Without Bread"

Well, oops. I ate the carrot and beet salad and now everything that was running smoothly has stopped. So, no veggies for me today.

Thing is, everything "runs smoothly" if I do NOT eat any veggies. Things slow down or stop if I do.

BUT, I feel like I do need just a FEW more carbs because when I have them, I feel generally less lethargic. So what is the deal here? How can I get a few more carbs without irritating the bowel??? I'm not talking about MANY carbs, only 10 grams or so...
 
Laura said:
Well, oops. I ate the carrot and beet salad and now everything that was running smoothly has stopped. So, no veggies for me today.

Thing is, everything "runs smoothly" if I do NOT eat any veggies. Things slow down or stop if I do.

BUT, I feel like I do need just a FEW more carbs because when I have them, I feel generally less lethargic. So what is the deal here? How can I get a few more carbs without irritating the bowel??? I'm not talking about MANY carbs, only 10 grams or so...

FWIW, in TNAFANY, there is a section called "The Vegetable Challenge" that has some suggestions for easy salads with a carb tally below 10 that might do the trick. Some of the suggestions might be off limits such as tomatoes, tofu, etc. but that should be pretty easy to substitute.
 
Thor said:
Laura said:
Well, oops. I ate the carrot and beet salad and now everything that was running smoothly has stopped. So, no veggies for me today.

Thing is, everything "runs smoothly" if I do NOT eat any veggies. Things slow down or stop if I do.

BUT, I feel like I do need just a FEW more carbs because when I have them, I feel generally less lethargic. So what is the deal here? How can I get a few more carbs without irritating the bowel??? I'm not talking about MANY carbs, only 10 grams or so...

FWIW, in TNAFANY, there is a section called "The Vegetable Challenge" that has some suggestions for easy salads with a carb tally below 10 that might do the trick. Some of the suggestions might be off limits such as tomatoes, tofu, etc. but that should be pretty easy to substitute.

For example, one of my favourites in the summer is a cup or two of lettuce, with a quarter of a spring onion chopped with olive oil and celtic sea salt. It's nice even without the spring onion. I don't know what the carb count is- based on the atkins calculator I guess it to be about 3 or 4 gms max. In spite of the simplicity of it I don't tend to get bored. Root vegetables are out of season now so I'm not really looking for them. I'm looking forward to a bit of mashed turnip with butter in winter! Laura maybe it's the raw nature of the grated carrots and beets. Perhaps they would be easier on you if they were cooked?
 
Don Genaro said:
For example, one of my favourites in the summer is a cup or two of lettuce, with a quarter of a spring onion chopped with olive oil and celtic sea salt. It's nice even without the spring onion. I don't know what the carb count is- based on the atkins calculator I guess it to be about 3 or 4 gms max. In spite of the simplicity of it I don't tend to get bored. Root vegetables are out of season now so I'm not really looking for them. I'm looking forward to a bit of mashed turnip with butter in winter! Laura maybe it's the raw nature of the grated carrots and beets. Perhaps they would be easier on you if they were cooked?

Salad is a total no-go. Remember, while I was in Germany, I was fine eating nothing but meats and eggs. On the next to last night I ate a small side salad and was blocked for two days.

My intestines apparently do NOT like veggies of about any kind... but I don't feel that I've really transitioned to the fat metabolism - probably due to my age and health issues. And remember, I've been moving toward this transition for THREE YEARS, so it is evident that it is not something that someone who is older and has issues can just do all of a sudden and expect it to work in every respect.

I guess I'm just going to have to persist with what makes my bowels happy until other systems in the body eventually switch over and, in the meantime, endure the tiredness that comes and goes. I do feel MUCH better overall, but these spells of no energy are sometimes debilitating.

So, I'll be trying some cooked veggies and see if that helps, but I will keep the carb count very low.
 
Good- something tells me it's the raw part that doesn't suit you. But that's just my guess! Possibly one of your favourites (sweet potato) very carefully measured for carbs, boiled, mashed and buttered will do you good as sweet potato is recommended usually as one of the gentlest foods on the digestive system. By the way, the idea of ham with chunks of butter has been a lifesaver for me- delicious and great when I want a snack but don't want to ruin my appetite!
 
Don Genaro said:
Good- something tells me it's the raw part that doesn't suit you. But that's just my guess! Possibly one of your favourites (sweet potato) very carefully measured for carbs, boiled, mashed and buttered will do you good as sweet potato is recommended usually as one of the gentlest foods on the digestive system. By the way, the idea of ham with chunks of butter has been a lifesaver for me- delicious and great when I want a snack but don't want to ruin my appetite!

I was going to suggest the same (my bowels are a little more tolerant, but only slightly - I had salad last night and this morning and things are now out of balance).
Recently tried peas and that as a really bad idea - despite giving me a really good boost of energy (felt like I was running on jet fuel for a day - despite having bloating/diarrhea after the second meal with peas in).

I've been near zero carbs (because of trying to get a good baseline from my intestines before introducing anything) and introduced cooked carrots a few days ago (chopped thinly, fried in butter - then drowned in the butter) and those seem ok, as long as I stick to about half/one carrot per meal. Seems to give me just enough carbs to not feel so tired (at least for the moment).

Making sure vegetables are cooked to death is probably a good way to go. How they are cooked may also have an effect on them.
Sweat potatoes I either fry or use in stews (I stew almost everything).
 
Okay, today I have a sweet potato for lunch - steamed and buttered - with some ham.
 
Laura said:
Okay, today I have a sweet potato for lunch - steamed and buttered - with some ham.

If they don't suit you, try them a few days later either fried or in a stew (to the point they've disappeared) and see if you get the same results. Boiled/steamed carrots don't suit me it seems (no matter how much butter I put on them), so the fried ones where a surprise (maybe the heats changing something?).
Am hoping this will change with time.
 
BUT, I feel like I do need just a FEW more carbs because when I have them, I feel generally less lethargic. So what is the deal here? How can I get a few more carbs without irritating the bowel??? I'm not talking about MANY carbs, only 10 grams or so...



I tried adding a few carbs too and so far so good, no problems.

I partially boiled a small head of green cabbage, let it cool and chopped it up.

I threw it in a frying pan along with a half stick of butter, a huge sliced zucchini and a tiny onion and fried it all together. Now, I eat a little of this along with the meat at least once a day because I was really getting tired of having only the one taste in my mouth! A couple of bites of meat and then a small bite of the cabbage mixture is really a welcome change and I don`t think there are very many carbs if you keep the portion down to just a couple of tablespoons at a time.

That's all you need anyway.

The other thing I have tried that works well, is just adding about an ounce of sharp cheese since I don`t seem to have any problem with dairy if I only do a little at a time. I slice the cheese into tiny pieces and then take a couple of bites of meat and then a bite of the sharp cheese and wow, besides being a different taste it just makes the meat taste a whole lot better too.

I got brave and whipped some heavy cream cut some big blueberries in half and added them.
Chilled it in the fridge and tried about 1/4 cup of that. Again I had no problem with it, but before I could try it again the kids devoured the rest of it!
 
Megan said:
… ongoing problems with IBS-like symptoms. When I dropped from 72 g/d of carbs to 20 g/d my old IBS symptoms (from 15 years ago) came back with a vengeance. … This may have to do with the warning in Fiber Menace that if you are older and have been eating a high-fiber diet for a long time, your GI tract may have stretched and it might not recover, leaving you dependent upon consuming a certain amount of extra "bulk."

Thor said:
I'm also trying to figure out what I'm not doing right in order to get my digestion working properly. It takes forever for food to pass through the intestines and I take a lot of vitamin C plus magnesium daily.

I had continued to take probiotics and Saccharomyces Boulardii which is supposed to help with candida. My thought was that I'd stop taking them when I had fully transitioned to the low-carb metabolism. … I got a weird combination of constipation and diarrhea at the same time. This may sound weird but it is as if I am constipated and when things pass through it is as diarrhea. …

Another thing that struck me was Laura's post yesterday about getting enough foundation vegetables. ... So yesterday I started introducing more foundation vegetables and will see how that goes.

I’m one of the older ones too, on day 22 of being at 20g/day carbs, taking at least 12g/day of foundation vegetables, and taking full supplements (including probiotics, ox bile, enzymes, and Milk Thistle) as before (to reduce them after attaining the Atkins Edge and dachieving my Atkins Carbohydrate Equilibrium level). Since reducing my carb levels I’ve had problems with bowel movements, mainly constipations, despite playing with various levels of Vit C and Magnesium. Like Thor, I experienced constipation and a form of diarrhoea at the same time – the latter in the form of wet gas. For the last week, I’ve had a lot more gas too.

I’m not sure if I’ve reached the ‘Atkins Edge’, that of a dramatic increase in energy and sense of wellbeing. Definitely an increase in energy from early days, however, in terms of wellbeing, this may be clouded by sensitivity to Arachindonic Acid (AA). Symptons include poor and restless sleep; grogginess on awakening; constipation; minor rashes. Previously, I first noticed this with eating eggs (yolks) and have since reduced the amount that I ate in a week. Initially this was absent until about a week into the New Atkins programme. AA is found in all meats, especially red meats and organ meats, as well as in egg yolks (as well as in coconut oil). This may explain the problem that I’ve had with eating organ meats recently.

Eades quote in Protein Power that AA is located both in the muscle tissue and in the fat. The quantities are higher in red meat because red meat has more fat, which, at least in today’s feedlot animals, contains high levels of AA. Animals have the same eicosanoid synthesis cascade that we do, and when they are grain-fed and fattened, the high-carbonate grain stimulates their insulin just as it does ours. Fats are stored in fatty tissue in the same ratio that they occur in the blood, so cattle – and people – having large quantities of circulating AA will store large quantities as well. The good news is that range-fed cattle and wild game have much less fat to begin with, and what fat they have contains little AA.

Now the only red meat that I eat is lamb, and grass fed at that, and cured bacon. So, I’m not sure what is happening, cutting out eggs for a few days seems to have had little effect, one of the symptoms that I used to experience with too much AA was inflammation in my upper arms, close to the shoulder. I’m still experiencing that, may be it’s to do with re-experiencing past problems (detox effect) in the transition process. Speaking of detox, I’ve noticed that on sauna days that I have a need to excrete two to three times more than on other days. Perhaps I need to eat more fish (currently around once a day) and chicken and turkey rather than lamb every day. Maybe it’s to do with age and a stretched GI tract that may not recover. Perhaps I need more bulk in the foundation vegetables too.
 
You might want to both try cutting out the pro-biotics. My theory at the time was (especially the GI problems) where changes in gut flora. When I first took pro-biotics I got the same symptoms as I was switching diets, so it could be the bacteria balance is changing and taking pro-biotics is simply delaying the transition and prolonging the symptoms (GI problems).

The reason I figured this was because (from the research I did) most of the bacteria in pro-biotics is designed to digest carbs and not meat. One thing that did really help too was eating an aged/hung piece of meat. It will have its own (meat digesting) bacteria present and so is like meat pro-biotic.
 
Here is something interesting I thought I'd share, fwiw:

_http://whfoods.org/genpage.php?tname=newtip&dbid=38
Are the carbs in vegetables the same cooked or uncooked?

[...]

Conversion of starch to sugar


Heat can help increase the rate at which vegetable starches get converted into vegetable sugars. A baked Russet potato, for example, will lose about 10% of its raw-form total starch content and convert that starch content into sugar. From a nutritional perspective, this loss of starch and increase in sugar is relatively small and not typically a cause for great concern. However, the baking of a starchy vegetable can also raise its glycemic index (GI) value. This increase in GI (often related to the conversion of starches to sugars) holds true for vegetables like potatoes, sweet potatoes, yams, plaintains, and carrots. A raw carrot typically has a GI value in the 15-20 range. A cooked carrot's GI will typically fall into the 35-50 range. (You can find a reliable list of GI values in the website established by David Mendosa and based on research at the University of Sydney in Australia at _http://www.mendosa.com/gilists.htm.) [...]

Dry versus liquid heat

When vegetables are boiled in water, some of their sugars and starches are lost into the cooking water.
When vegetables are roasted or baked in the oven, this loss of sugars and starches into water does not take place. For this reason, vegetables like boiled green beans will typically lose a small percent of both sugars and starches into the cooking water, whereas oven-roasted green beans will not. However, these changes in carbohydrate composition are once again relatively small and not usually a major factor in deciding about cooking method.
 
Carrots, beet and sweet potatoes are high in starch, and therefore the associated insulin rush will be high compared with the smaller value of the green foundation vegetables.
 
Thor said:
...Another thing that struck me was Laura's post yesterday about getting enough foundation vegetables. I have not been eating very many foundation vegetables and upon rereading the Induction part of TNAFANY I realized that they are important in getting the digestion to transition. So yesterday I started introducing more foundation vegetables and will see how that goes...

Be careful with the veggies, though. As uncomfortable as I have been this last month, one thing I did NOT have to deal with was the abrasion caused by excess "roughage" in my diet. This can be quite damaging, and can lead to serious disease as described in Fiber Menace. So while things have been moving slowly (improving now), they have nevertheless been moving smoothly and there have been no incidents of hard, dry stool. I have not had that particular problem now for 5 months, since I greatly lowered my dietary fiber.

I feel strongly, based on present knowledge, that a neo-paleo, ketogenic diet is the best way to go for people that are able to adopt it. What I am not so sure of is whether my GI tract can heal enough for me to do that personally. The books where I have been reading about ketogenic diets have not generally included much if any discussion about neo-paleo eating. It is necessary to read widely and to draw from a variety of sources to fill in the gaps.

And it's complicated. I had a long talk with our veterinarian last week about our cats' diet. While she is herself a vegetarian, our vet at least acknowledges that cats are carnivores. She is open-minded and favors nutritional interventions over drugs and such -- I would like to find a personal MD like that -- and she has learned quite a lot about the animals she treats. She points out that the natural diet of cats living in the wild includes the intestines of their prey, and that that is where they get their vegetables, pre-digested. As for "fiber," in the wild they would be ingesting fur, bone bits, and such that serve a parallel purpose in carnivores. Domestic cats are different, but how, exactly? Simply eliminating "modern" veggies from the diet of modern domestic cats doesn't work. I hope you see the parallel with modern domestic humans, though I think we, as a unique form of medium-sized omnivore that cooks its food, are more adaptable.

This conversation came about because in reading the labels of packaged cat foods I kept coming across grains, primarily rice but also millet and others, as the second ingredient. Some high-priced "healthy, organic" cat foods are much worse, formulated apparently only to satisfy the narcissistic needs of clueless vegetarian/vegan cat owners (thankfully, they don't seem to sell all that well). Our cats are having trouble with their appetites and they show signs of other "diseases of civilization" and we have been trying to figure out what to feed them. In some ways, because of their shorter lives, they are leading the way helping us to figure out what to change in our own diets -- but at their expense!

And so I think (based on what I know -- always subject to revision) that we need to understand how to replace problematic veggies with less problematic foods as part of a neo-paleo diet. I don't know how. The eggshell idea might be one good example of the possibilities, but what else can we do? I think there may have been some discussion about this in this topic or elsewhere but if so, I have lost track of it.
 
Oxajil said:
Here is something interesting I thought I'd share, fwiw:

_http://whfoods.org/genpage.php?tname=newtip&dbid=38
Are the carbs in vegetables the same cooked or uncooked?
...

I think this relates to the point I have been making about the Atwater Convention, upon which our nutritional labeling is based. I don't know if the Atkins carb counter fully takes this effect into account. The problem is that cooking food alters the "energy availability" of food, often by increasing the available energy (calories), but the nutritional data does not fully allow for this because it is hard to come up with all the data (search for Atwater in this topic and see my earlier, more detailed post). The GI is another aspect to take into account.
 

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