"Life Without Bread"

[Gertrudes]

BUT, having said that, one still has to deal with fats carefully too!

True, and I found that the hard way. A couple of times of having had too much fat for lunch almost had me going home from work with a "being sick" notice because of abdominal cramps and nausea. One really has to approach it carefully and test personal limit intakes.

I found how much to take, and when, and have had no more problems with fat for a while now.

 

[Nienna]

BUT, having said that, one still has to deal with fats carefully too!

True, and I found that the hard way. A couple of times of having had too much fat for lunch almost had me going home from work with a "being sick" notice because of abdominal cramps and nausea. One really has to approach it carefully and test personal limit intakes.

I found how much to take, and when, and have had no more problems with fat for a while now.

I think that increasing the water intake is very important. I, too, had abdominal cramps something fierce until I really increased my water intake. Also increased the salt. But, increasing the water really helped with the cramping.

It also helps to flush the ketones out of the system through the urinary tract, rather than them accumulating in the muscles and being released through the skin and, also, through the breath.

 

[dugdeep]

This morning I had a leg cramp in both legs when I woke up. They were just starting and I managed to stretch them out before they got bad. I'm clueless as to what's going on here. I'm making all the right moves, AFAIK - taking Ca, Mg, K lots of salt and water. The only thing I'm not taking is L-carnitine because it's not available in Canada.

I'm actually considering taking the L-carnitine with rice powder in them I mentioned a few posts back if it means stopping the leg cramps and better making the transition. It might do more harm than good, however, even though rice isn't the most evil of the evil. Any opinions on that?

 

[mcb]

Might be useful to look at IBS for some possible clues. One of the things commonly noted with IBS is skin rash. Whenever Atriedes has a tummy upset, he gets a rash, usually on his abdomen, arms, and legs.

IBS comes in two main varieties: constipation, or diarrhea.

http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmedhealth/PMH0001292/

Of course, they say very contradictory and often stupid things like: "
Increase dietary fiber
Fiber supplements can make symptoms worse

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Irritable_bowel_syndrome

Two varieties? It has always been two PHASES for me. One after the other, round and round. And that is what happened when I dropped to 20 g/d of carbs. It was not my classic IBS, though. It was worse. I was flushing through undigested food. I am doing better now on about 40-50 g/d, although I am still working on making an accurate count. It's hard to catch it all, especially when supplements may contain carbs.

Fiber Menace goes into detail about why treating diarrhea with fiber is a bad idea. This is a book that could make excellent "bathroom reading." :)

I am going to spend some more time re-reading FM. It has some good ideas for managing symptoms, and it seems to offer an alternative low-carb/low-fiber approach that I have not examined closely.

I finished reading Rethinking Thin and while I found it quite interesting, it is not the book to read first. It presents a scientific view that is valid up to a point, but doesn't take into account the body's ability to shift gears and use fat for fuel, and all the changes in dietary response that that implies.

I also don't think the author's conclusions apply to people who are willing to permanently alter their eating habits as part of their personal mission. But they certainly do apply to the "typical Americans" on which the book reports and to which the book is addressed.

Her account very much reflects my own experiences in dieting over the years. I did not try all the different diets going around -- I relied only on calorie restriction -- but my outcomes were much the same as anybody else's. Nothing worked long term. But I did observe repeatedly that appetite was what sabotaged my efforts, and I had been very frustrated by the way dietary advice ignored this central phenomenon.

Lowering carbs, however, to ~72 g/day, almost immediately brought my appetite under control and at that point I knew I had the information it would to succeed. But I also realize that losing weight may prove to be a slow process, and that my "ideal weight" may turn out to be higher than what I thought it should be. For now I am just very glad that I am not gaining weight, and that I no longer am going around hungry.

 

[Oxajil]

This morning I had a leg cramp in both legs when I woke up. They were just starting and I managed to stretch them out before they got bad. I'm clueless as to what's going on here. I'm making all the right moves, AFAIK - taking Ca, Mg, K lots of salt and water. The only thing I'm not taking is L-carnitine because it's not available in Canada.

I'm actually considering taking the L-carnitine with rice powder in them I mentioned a few posts back if it means stopping the leg cramps and better making the transition. It might do more harm than good, however, even though rice isn't the most evil of the evil. Any opinions on that?

If you want you could order L-carnitine from iherb.com : here. It's pretty cheap over there, and the shipping costs aren't so high either. They also ship to Canada. Hope you can fix your problem.

 

[RedFox]

This morning I had a leg cramp in both legs when I woke up. They were just starting and I managed to stretch them out before they got bad. I'm clueless as to what's going on here. I'm making all the right moves, AFAIK - taking Ca, Mg, K lots of salt and water. The only thing I'm not taking is L-carnitine because it's not available in Canada.

I'm actually considering taking the L-carnitine with rice powder in them I mentioned a few posts back if it means stopping the leg cramps and better making the transition. It might do more harm than good, however, even though rice isn't the most evil of the evil. Any opinions on that?

Are you taking lots of fish oil? That helped me a lot.
What I noticed was the cramping increased steadily over time....it got worse and more frequent. Until I dropped my protein to 0.9g per kg, and I got instant relief the day I did.
So it seems that excess protein (above what your body needs) may well lead to cramping too.

 

[dugdeep]

If you want you could order L-carnitine from iherb.com : here. It's pretty cheap over there, and the shipping costs aren't so high either. They also ship to Canada. Hope you can fix your problem.

I guess I could give it a shot. I just assumed it wouldn't get across the border, but it might be worth trying. I've got an account with vitacost from when I lived in the US, so I'll try ordering from them (they ship to Canada too). Thanks Oxajil :)

Are you taking lots of fish oil? That helped me a lot.
What I noticed was the cramping increased steadily over time....it got worse and more frequent. Until I dropped my protein to 0.9g per kg, and I got instant relief the day I did.
So it seems that excess protein (above what your body needs) may well lead to cramping too.

I'm taking about 2-5g of fish oil per day, so I don't think that's the issue. My cramping seems to be happening on and off, but since I dropped my protein a few days ago and just had cramping this morning, I don't think that's the issue. Who knows, though. Hopefully it's just transitional and will go away on its own. In the meantime I'm going to try ordering l-carnitine from the states.

 

[Jacques]

In the meantime I'm going to try ordering l-carnitine from the states.

If you want to improve your chance of getting your product since it is not allowed in canada, make an order below 50$. So, it might pass free to custom.

Last times I ordered for a value over 100$, the parcel was checked at the custom and was refused.

 

[Laura]

This leg cramps thing has got me thinking. I haven't exactly had them, but I've had "almost cramps". What I have had is "heavy legs" and very "tired feeling" in the legs. I looked online and found the following:

When the cause is found, cramping can be due to prolonged sitting or leg position during sedentary activity.

Perhaps most commonly, cramps can be due to overuse of muscles that are not accustomed to exercise. {This might relate if the muscles are being forced to start burning fat for fuel instead of sugar. They may experience this as "overuse of muscles."}

The second most common cause is dehydration. Cramps can also be caused by electrolyte and metabolic disorders. Diuretic drugs can commonly cause cramping through dehydration, sodium or potassium depletion. {This definitely might relate since we know a low carb diet tends to cause the body to dump excess water/fluids. It also might be combined with reason number one.}

Parathyroid disease causes high or low calcium levels and is associated with cramping, as is thyroid dysfunction. Parathyroid and thyroid diseases are perhaps a more common cause of cramping in the hands and arms compared with other causes of cramping.

So, it looks more like it is an issue of transitioning to fat burning (which can get glitches if a person goes in and out of ketosis) AND dehydration. In the first case, it is just a matter of getting things going and keeping them ontrack, and the second - which should be considered automatically as a possible - which means drinking more water and getting more salt.

 

[Gaby]

The Cs referred to a certain genetic profile related to smokers and its protection to the Black Death:

http://cassiopaea.org/forum/index.php/topic,21918.msg231796.html#msg231796

A: Those that have a certain genetic profile may suffer very little.

Q: (Andromeda) Is that any of us? (Galaxia) That doesn't sound like anybody is immune... like, "They'll suffer very little before they die!"

A: Smoking tobacco is a clue and an aid.

Q: (L) A clue to the genetic profile?

A: Yes.

While I was reading Primal Body, Primal Mind, I noticed that those with certain diseases who benefit enormously with a primal diet (low carb, rich in fat), are usually those who also benefit from nicotine. Perhaps that is another clue to the genetic profile. Just a thought.

 

[Gawan]

This leg cramps thing has got me thinking. I haven't exactly had them, but I've had "almost cramps". What I have had is "heavy legs" and very "tired feeling" in the legs. I looked online and found the following:

When the cause is found, cramping can be due to prolonged sitting or leg position during sedentary activity.

Perhaps most commonly, cramps can be due to overuse of muscles that are not accustomed to exercise. {This might relate if the muscles are being forced to start burning fat for fuel instead of sugar. They may experience this as "overuse of muscles."}

The second most common cause is dehydration. Cramps can also be caused by electrolyte and metabolic disorders. Diuretic drugs can commonly cause cramping through dehydration, sodium or potassium depletion. {This definitely might relate since we know a low carb diet tends to cause the body to dump excess water/fluids. It also might be combined with reason number one.}

Parathyroid disease causes high or low calcium levels and is associated with cramping, as is thyroid dysfunction. Parathyroid and thyroid diseases are perhaps a more common cause of cramping in the hands and arms compared with other causes of cramping.

So, it looks more like it is an issue of transitioning to fat burning (which can get glitches if a person goes in and out of ketosis) AND dehydration. In the first case, it is just a matter of getting things going and keeping them ontrack, and the second - which should be considered automatically as a possible - which means drinking more water and getting more salt.

What helped yesterday, also when my legs were really weak, doing the opposite instead of sitting, so I did cycle around a bit (just in normal speed), which helped me. Also when I have today aching muscles. So exercise may help a bit against this feeling of weakness. Especially walking stairs seem to be a problem.

 

[mcb]

So, it looks more like it is an issue of transitioning to fat burning (which can get glitches if a person goes in and out of ketosis) AND dehydration. In the first case, it is just a matter of getting things going and keeping them ontrack, and the second - which should be considered automatically as a possible - which means drinking more water and getting more salt.

It would be interesting to know what kinds of cramps other people are having. I have two different kinds, sometimes at the same time but usually not. The "traditional" kind that I have had for decades, and that could well be related to thyroid, is deep and very painful, but easily stopped (if it occurs in a leg) by simply standing up and putting weight on it. I don't tuck in the bed covers, so that I can quickly stand up if one starts while I am in bed, which is usually where it happens. Over the years I have developed bumps on the backs of my lower legs over the points where the cramps normally occur.

The other kind, which I only started to experience regularly when I began taking a diuretic in 2005, occurs near the surface. It sometimes responds to putting weight on it, but it can go on and on no matter what I do, and can move around to some extent. It produces visible muscle spasm effects, especially distortions of the foot or shape of the leg. I usually get them in my legs, ankles, and the bottoms and tops of my feet -- the areas where I have edema. They are clearly related in some way to dehydration, although simply drinking water doesn't seem to make much if any difference. Adding salt may be helping; I am not yet sure. The cramps stopped when I stopped taking the diuretic in late 2007, then came back intermittently after a year or so, and are back with a vengeance now from the low-carb diet.

Both kinds of cramps seem to be triggered, most often, by stretching. I seem to have fewer of the first kind when I am having trouble with the second kind, so they seem to be connected in some way. They can occur in my arms and elsewhere, but rarely do. It's almost always the legs.

 

[Laura]

Both kinds of cramps seem to be triggered, most often, by stretching. I seem to have fewer of the first kind when I am having trouble with the second kind, so they seem to be connected in some way. They can occur in my arms and elsewhere, but rarely do. It's almost always the legs.

Yeah, I get the "almost cramps" when I stretch.

I just got some kinesio tape that came with a little brochure showing taping patterns and it has one for leg cramps. I wonder if this would help?

 

[Jacques]

It would be interesting to know what kinds of cramps other people are having. I have two different kinds, sometimes at the same time but usually not. The "traditional" kind that I have had for decades, and that could well be related to thyroid, is deep and very painful, but easily stopped (if it occurs in a leg) by simply standing up and putting weight on it. I don't tuck in the bed covers, so that I can quickly stand up if one starts while I am in bed, which is usually where it happens. Over the years I have developed bumps on the backs of my lower legs over the points where the cramps normally occur.

I have the tradiotional cramp.

Both kinds of cramps seem to be triggered, most often, by stretching. I seem to have fewer of the first kind when I am having trouble with the second kind, so they seem to be connected in some way. They can occur in my arms and elsewhere, but rarely do. It's almost always the legs.

And indeed, the cramp can be triggered by strectching when I am asleep.

I have never had those kinds of cramps of my life and it is very painful.

 

[Nicholas]

The Cs referred to a certain genetic profile related to smokers and its protection to the Black Death:

http://cassiopaea.org/forum/index.php/topic,21918.msg231796.html#msg231796

A: Those that have a certain genetic profile may suffer very little.

Q: (Andromeda) Is that any of us? (Galaxia) That doesn't sound like anybody is immune... like, "They'll suffer very little before they die!"

A: Smoking tobacco is a clue and an aid.

Q: (L) A clue to the genetic profile?

A: Yes.

While I was reading Primal Body, Primal Mind, I noticed that those with certain diseases who benefit enormously with a primal diet (low carb, rich in fat), are usually those who also benefit from nicotine. Perhaps that is another clue to the genetic profile. Just a thought.

I feel you may be on to something here Psyche. The Primal Body, Primal Mind book is on the way to me to read next. I don't seem to derive any benefit from nicotine but my body is definitely responding to the low carb, high fat diet in good ways.