Mechanical Center

[Approaching Infinity]

Alada thank you no need to go back to ISOTM what you said makes perfect sense. Through our esotericaly educated decisions and be able to discern better the magnetic center strengthens/grows and then it leads us. So our choices and the magnetic center lead us hand in hand. But then it seems like a person and their magnetic center only leads them so far and that is where a shock or C influence is needed?

Think of the word: magnetic center. What does a magnet do? It attracts other magnetic metals towards it. A magnet without materials to attract towards it is like discernment without any truth to discern, or a body without food to ingest.

 

[Courageous Inmate Sort]

Mechanical suffering is the false-self feeling a lack of pleasure. A need to be pleased is a sign of feeling important.

I currently understand mechanical suffering as an attachment to subjective states resulting from external influences beyond conscious control. Not being objective, any feeling of worth while in these states is vanity.

One could also say that self-importance has positive/negative expressions i.e., either grandiose or morose.

Jerry, thank you for the explanation and all the quotes. It makes sense know. I have been thinking about the need of being in a state of suffering lately but hadn't made the connection with self-importance, your post connected these dots for me.

My girlfriend tells me that I like to suffer and actually today a friend told me that I remember her of the character Dr. House, from the TV show. I'm not quite sure what she meant (because she thinks I'm weird in various manners) but when I read it I immediately thought of his tendency to inflict pain on himself.

The crazy thing is that now that I'm looking into past events, when people say to me that I should not be gloomy I actually feel somewhat oppressed, as if "I have the right to suffer as much as I want, I deserve it". "Deserve" here in the sense that I do all that is asked of me, so please let me suffer in peace.

You're completely right, mechanical suffering is a form of self-importance!

Thanks again

 

[whitecoast]

I'm curious if you have any data to back this idea up. For instance, do you have an example of any human being who has fused a Real magnetic center alone? Or is it more a statement of, "I think it must be possible"?

Apologies for not getting back to you on this immediately.

I don't say that it's possible out of sentiment, but rather because it is my reasoned opinion. I cannot provide specific examples of people, as those who we would know about are those who would be known to others through dialogues and discussions of the topics they have mastered - hence, all historical examples of accomplished individuals that we know about are C influences (part of a school/network environment) a priori.

The reason I think it is technically not impossible to reach the Esoteric Center without C influences is because all that is intrinsically necessary for one to access the Esoteric Center can be found in B influences. I explain this below.

The source of salvation comes from within, through the utmost discipline of the mind-body and purity of consciousness. A influences lead one nowhere, because they are not related to consciousness and provide no direction in searching for the Esoteric Center. They are entirely subject to the law of accident.

B influences are capable of reaching people on a conscious level, kindling the potential for its development in order to learn to distinguish A from B in the formation of the magnetic center. B influences also radiate from the Esoteric Center as a sort of magnetic field, so they are capable of providing some indirect direction to search for the Esoteric Center. B influences are subject to the law of accident only some of the time.

C influences offer an unbroken chain to the Esoteric Center, are full of consciousness, and are never subject to the law of accident.

If you compare two individuals, one with only access to B influences, and one with access to both B and C influences, it is plainly obvious that someone with C influences is receiving the things necessary for finding the Esoteric Center in much larger quantities than the person with only B influences. But in spite of the fact that they are in different quantities, there's nothing in C influences that is noticeably absent in B influences (both give direction; both create opportunities for greater consciousness; both offer a reprieve from the law of accident) and both, at least, they way there is between C and A influences. This is why I felt it was necessary to point out that, while those with C influences are much more capable of finding the Esoteric Center than B influences, it's not technically impossible the way it is for A influences.

Another reason for believing it is possible is due to mental monoism. Since the conscious substances that compose our souls all belong to the same macroscopic soul, that larger soul can attain unity and wholeness only through itself and no other (the intrinsic necessity of a "school" in this context would imply something existing outside the universe, which is a contradiction in terms).

In terms of practicality though, the subject might as well be treated as if it were impossible to graduate without a school, because getting by on the smaller quantities that B influences provide alone requires an extraordinary character rare in most people.

I hope I satisfied your questions and curiosity, anart. ;D

 

[Menna]

The Psychology Of Man's Possible Evolution - P 67

"If the results produced by influence B become sufficiently strong they fuse together and form in man what is called a magnetic center. It must be understood at once that the world center in this case does not mean the same thing as the intellectual or the moving center: that is, center s in the essence. The magnetic center is in personality; it is simple a group of interest which when they become sufficiently stronge serve to a certain degree as a guiding and controlling factor. The magnetic center turned ones interests in a certain direction and helps to keep the there. At the same time it cannot do much by itself. A school is necessary. The magnetic center cannot replace a school but it can help to realize the need of a school; it can help in the beginning to look for a school. Because nothing is easier to lose than a school. Possession of a magnetic center is the first although quite unspoken demand of a school. If a man without a magnetic center or a small or a weak magnetic center or with several contradictory magnetic centers that is interested in many incompatible things at the same time meets a school he does not become interested in it or he becomes critical at once before he can know anything or his interest disappears very quickly when he meets with the first difficulties of school work. This is the chief safeguard of a school. Without it the school would be filled with quite a wrong kind of people who would immediately distort the school teaching. A right magnetic center not only helps one to recognize a school it also helps to absorb the school teaching, which is different from both influences A and influences B and may ne called influence C. Influence C can be transferred only by the world of mouth by direct instruction explanation and demonstration When a man meets with influence C and is able to absorb it it is said about him that in one point of himself that is in his magnetic center he becomes free from the law of accident. From this moment the magnetic center has actually played its part as it brought man to a school or helped him in the first steps there. From then on the ideas and the teaching of the school take the place of the magnetic center and slowly begin to penetrate into the different parts of personality and with time into essence. One can learn many things about schools about their organization and about their activity in other ordinary way by reading and by studying historical periods when schools were more conspicuous and more accessible. But there are certain things about schools that one can learn only in schools themselves. And the explanation of school principles and rulers occupies a very considerable place in school teaching." - P.D. Ouspensky

The above quote and the help in the previous posts allow me to understand better and now I can tell you what I was thinking in a better way.

I understand now that the magnetic center guides one to the work and if the person finds the right school. The right teacher the right type of C influences and one can progress with this help and hard work on their part.

Now this leads me to what I am trying to get at…Where to look for these schools and teachers. Yes the forum is great and without it I would not be where I am on the learning curve but its sort of like Ive had a piece of cake it was great now where is the whole pie.

 

[Mrs. Peel]

Now this leads me to what I am trying to get at…Where to look for these schools and teachers. Yes the forum is great and without it I would not be where I am on the learning curve but its sort of like Ive had a piece of cake it was great now where is the whole pie.

Meena, do you really think there is a better school out there "somewhere" other than QFS, the Cs, and this forum? Or maybe I'm misunderstanding your statement above.

 

[Menna]

I don't know. Being in a school where you can see these "demonstrations" and being able to converse and be person to person with someone - I think adds a different dimension to the work that can't be replaced. But given the reply above by white coast kind of struck a cord with me and kind of made me realize to trust myself more and that I have advanced through working with this forum I am just more talking about that other dynamic and if it necessary

And what is QFS? I have seen it mentioned here before never look into it

 

[anart]

I don't say that it's possible out of sentiment, but rather because it is my reasoned opinion.

What is the difference between 'sentiment' and 'reasoned opinion'?

I cannot provide specific examples of people, as those who we would know about are those who would be known to others through dialogues and discussions of the topics they have mastered - hence, all historical examples of accomplished individuals that we know about are C influences (part of a school/network environment) a priori.

I don't necessarily think that is a sound premise. I wasn't asking if you knew of a hermit who had fused a magnetic center, I was asking if you knew of someone who had done it without a network, or alone, as you put it, since you seem to think it is possible.

The reason I think it is technically not impossible to reach the Esoteric Center without C influences is because all that is intrinsically necessary for one to access the Esoteric Center can be found in B influences. I explain this below.

I think you have confused my question. Your statement was that a person can fuse a magnetic center alone. I am questioning why you think that and what data you have to back it up. I'm not sure why you are bringing C influences into the equation? Did I misunderstand your original statement?

The source of salvation comes from within, through the utmost discipline of the mind-body and purity of consciousness. A influences lead one nowhere, because they are not related to consciousness and provide no direction in searching for the Esoteric Center. They are entirely subject to the law of accident.

B influences are capable of reaching people on a conscious level, kindling the potential for its development in order to learn to distinguish A from B in the formation of the magnetic center. B influences also radiate from the Esoteric Center as a sort of magnetic field, so they are capable of providing some indirect direction to search for the Esoteric Center. B influences are subject to the law of accident only some of the time.

This is not quite my personal understanding. It is my understanding that B influences are not internal, not with man in his current (and usual) state.

C influences offer an unbroken chain to the Esoteric Center, are full of consciousness, and are never subject to the law of accident.

If you compare two individuals, one with only access to B influences, and one with access to both B and C influences, it is plainly obvious that someone with C influences is receiving the things necessary for finding the Esoteric Center in much larger quantities than the person with only B influences. But in spite of the fact that they are in different quantities, there's nothing in C influences that is noticeably absent in B influences (both give direction; both create opportunities for greater consciousness; both offer a reprieve from the law of accident) and both, at least, they way there is between C and A influences. This is why I felt it was necessary to point out that, while those with C influences are much more capable of finding the Esoteric Center than B influences, it's not technically impossible the way it is for A influences.

First of all, 'finding the magnetic center', or 'esoteric center' is an error in phrasing. One does not find it, one creates it - fuses it from the myriad of personal 'i's within. Secondly, this really has nothing to do with my question to you.

Another reason for believing it is possible is due to mental monoism. Since the conscious substances that compose our souls all belong to the same macroscopic soul, that larger soul can attain unity and wholeness only through itself and no other (the intrinsic necessity of a "school" in this context would imply something existing outside the universe, which is a contradiction in terms).

No, you seem to be assuming that man is not soundly, soundly, soundly asleep. He is - that is the default position. A man cannot wake up alone. Gurdjieff goes into quite a lot of detail about this and the examples are limitless in modern life and personal experience.

In terms of practicality though, the subject might as well be treated as if it were impossible to graduate without a school, because getting by on the smaller quantities that B influences provide alone requires an extraordinary character rare in most people.

I hope I satisfied your questions and curiosity, anart. ;D

I'm not sure why you're making connections between 'quantities' of B influences and studying alone versus a network - I see no logical link between the two.

This thread on Opinions might be helpful to you.

 

[anart]

I don't know. Being in a school where you can see these "demonstrations" and being able to converse and be person to person with someone - I think adds a different dimension to the work that can't be replaced. But given the reply above by white coast kind of struck a cord with me and kind of made me realize to trust myself more and that I have advanced through working with this forum I am just more talking about that other dynamic and if it necessary

And what is QFS? I have seen it mentioned here before never look into it

Menna, it strikes me that your questions in this thread are rather like a man sitting at an enormous banquet table with more available to him than he could ever eat, repeatedly asking, "where is the food??". fwiw.

 

[go2]

It can be telling to observe how a man responds to metaphor---to see if he is material for awakening.

Luke 8:8 comes to mind----"Still other seed fell on good soil. It came up and yielded a crop, a hundred times more than was sown." When he said this, he called out, "He who has ears to hear, let him hear."

 

[Menna]

Exactly anart great analogy but not asking where is the food more asking how am I doing. Maybe a reassurance thing. As I am afraid I might not be progressing, as I should.

Part of my problem is even when I am doing well or if I think something is off or I could be doing better I need reassurance - I feel this is a snag that I might hit in the road a self destructive thing

 

[obyvatel]

The reason I think it is technically not impossible to reach the Esoteric Center without C influences is because all that is intrinsically necessary for one to access the Esoteric Center can be found in B influences. I explain this below.
..................................
This is why I felt it was necessary to point out that, while those with C influences are much more capable of finding the Esoteric Center than B influences, it's not technically impossible the way it is for A influences.

I could be wrong but it seems to me that you are using solely your intellect in analyzing a situation that cannot be grasped adequately without the help of the emotional center. So the flavor of what you have written is that of abstract theorizing - not practical understanding. Here is a quote from ISOTM which deals with this difference
[quote author=ISOTM]
"The difference between knowledge and understanding becomes clear when we realize that knowledge may be the function of one center. Understanding, however, is the function of three centers. Thus the thinking apparatus may know something. But understanding appears only when a man feels and senses what is connected with it.
"We have spoken earlier about mechanicalness. A man cannot say that he understands the idea of mechanicalness if he only knows about it with his mind. He must feel it with his whole mass, with his whole being; then he will understand it.
"In the sphere of practical activity people know very well the difference between mere knowledge and understanding. They realize that to know and to know how to do are two different things, and that knowing how to do is not created by knowledge alone. But outside the sphere of practical activity people do not clearly understand what 'understanding' means.
"As a rule, when people realize that they do not understand a thing they try to find a name for what they do not 'understand,' and when they find a name they say they 'understand.' But to 'find a name' does not mean to 'understand.' Unfortunately, people are usually satisfied with names. A man who knows a great many names, that is, a great many words, is deemed to understand a great deal—again excepting, of course, any sphere of practical activity wherein his ignorance very soon becomes evident.
[/quote]

What you have written here is imo important
[quote author=whitecoast]
In terms of practicality though, the subject might as well be treated as if it were impossible to graduate without a school, because getting by on the smaller quantities that B influences provide alone requires an extraordinary character rare in most people.
[/quote]

The Work is concerned with bringing about transformation - so that man can wake up. So it is about practicality. Discussing "technical possibility" while realizing it is "practically impossible" is not useful in the Work sense - it is akin to dreaming that one is an eagle while in reality one is a hypnotized sheep waiting to be slaughtered.
OSIT

 

[whitecoast]

What is the difference between 'sentiment' and 'reasoned opinion'?

To my understanding, when you are too emotionally sentimentally involved in a concept you have trouble examining it more objectively. I felt the need to clarify that because I got the impression that you seemed to be insinuating that I had some kind of emotional investment in thinking that one can grow without a school. :/ Correct me if I'm wrong about this.

I don't necessarily think that is a sound premise. I wasn't asking if you knew of a hermit who had fused a magnetic center, I was asking if you knew of someone who had done it without a network, or alone, as you put it, since you seem to think it is possible.

It is impossible to untangle the two, because both originate from the same premise of a person accessing the Esoteric Center without needing influences from a master, school or network (C influences) and telling others about it. The latter clause (telling others about it) necessarily negates the former (reaching the Esoteric Center without participating in a school or network). The only time I would see this not be the case would be if the person's creation of the evidence of his existence remained strictly as B influences (maybe they leave behind an extremely inspirational piece of art, for example), and that seems unlikely (though I don't know for certain). Then again, if someone did point to a particularly inspiring B influence, he or she would have a difficult time persuading someone that that person is some kind of ascended student of esoteric science on that basis alone.

This is not quite my personal understanding. It is my understanding that B influences are not internal, not with man in his current (and usual) state.

Yes, B influences originate from outside us. I meant internal in the sense that C influences (that is to say, searching for the Esoteric Center with the help of a school or network) aren't necessary. This was probably a major source of misunderstanding between us

First of all, 'finding the magnetic center', or 'esoteric center' is an error in phrasing. One does not find it, one creates it - fuses it from the myriad of personal 'i's within.

One creates a magnetic center, but one finds/accesses the Esoteric Center, because it exists independently of the subjective personality.

No, you seem to be assuming that man is not soundly, soundly, soundly asleep. He is - that is the default position. A man cannot wake up alone. Gurdjieff goes into quite a lot of detail about this and the examples are limitless in modern life and personal experience.

It depends on what you mean by "wake up alone". If by alone you mean "without external influences" I agree.
If by "wake up alone" you mean without the aid of C influences, I disagree for previously posted reasons, as everything that is really necessary for waking up can be found in B influences, if only in a severely diluted state.
It's also worth pointing out that humans exist on a bell-curve, and are not a homogeneous bunch by any circumstances. We're not all at the same stage of development, so there's always the chance.

I'm not sure why you're making connections between 'quantities' of B influences and studying alone versus a network - I see no logical link between the two.

The long and short of it is that B influences aid one's study toward accessing the Esoteric Center, as do C influences (school or networks). C influences do a better job of it, but that doesn't mean you can't get by on B influences alone. The odds of doing so are just extremely small.

Hopefully we're coming closer to understanding...

 

[whitecoast]

Thanks for your thoughtful comments obyvatel. It's late here, but I'll be able to sleep on it and answer you tomorrow.

 

[truth seeker]

Exactly anart great analogy but not asking where is the food more asking how am I doing. Maybe a reassurance thing. As I am afraid I might not be progressing, as I should.

Part of my problem is even when I am doing well or if I think something is off or I could be doing better I need reassurance - I feel this is a snag that I might hit in the road a self destructive thing

Hi Menna,

Not sure if you saw my last post to you in this thread or perhaps you weren't sure if I was addressing you. If so, apologies for the confusion. You may want to see if those questions/thoughts apply to you. :)

I don't know. Being in a school where you can see these "demonstrations" and being able to converse and be person to person with someone - I think adds a different dimension to the work that can't be replaced.

Were you ever able to make it to the ee classes we spoke of earlier?

 

[Alada]

The long and short of it is that B influences aid one's study toward accessing the Esoteric Center, as do C influences (school or networks). C influences do a better job of it, but that doesn't mean you can't get by on B influences alone. The odds of doing so are just extremely small.

I would say the odds are so vanishingly rare as to be useless to us as an idea.