Mechanical Center

[Alada]

I don't know. Being in a school where you can see these "demonstrations"

What "demonstrations" do you mean?
Where has this idea come from?
Is this idea a B influence or your imagination?


[quote author=Menna]
and being able to converse and be person to person with someone - I think adds a different dimension to the work that can't be replaced.
[/quote]
If you think so, then what is the 'dimension' that can't be replaced?
Where has this idea come from?
Is this idea a B influence or your imagination?


[quote author=Menna]
I am just more talking about that other dynamic and if it necessary
[/quote]
What is the 'other dynamic'?
Where has this idea come from?
Is this idea a B influence or your imagination?

 

[anart]

What is the difference between 'sentiment' and 'reasoned opinion'?

To my understanding, when you are too emotionally sentimentally involved in a concept you have trouble examining it more objectively. I felt the need to clarify that because I got the impression that you seemed to be insinuating that I had some kind of emotional investment in thinking that one can grow without a school. :/ Correct me if I'm wrong about this.

No, it wasn't that at all. The truth is that sentiment and opinion are the same, for all intents and purposes, especially on a research forum. My question to you was what data you had to back up the idea that a person can fuse a magnetic center alone. That's why I linked the Opinions thread, to give you a glimpse of how often opinions, even reasoned ones, are taken as fact, when they're not.

It is impossible to untangle the two, because both originate from the same premise of a person accessing the Esoteric Center without needing influences from a master, school or network (C influences) and telling others about it.

I think we are using different dictionaries. One does not 'access' the Magnetic Center - one fuses it - creates it, through conscious suffering and a lot of Work. Have you read Gurdjieff and Mouravieff?

Hopefully we're coming closer to understanding...

I don't think so. I think you are defining the Esoteric Center as something within a person when Gurdjieff used that term (Esoteric Circle) for a group of people who have achieved an equal level of Objective understanding in all ways, Esoteric understanding. There can be no misunderstanding between these people in the Esoteric Circle. The Magnetic Center is within an individual person, it is the fused Singular I. If by 'Esoteric Center' you mean the Higher Centers that are accessible to souled individuals, that is another topic as well, though directly related since the higher centers cannot be accessed without a fused Magnetic Center.

Hopefully this sheds at least a little light on the matter and doesn't confuse things further, though I think it might...

 

[anart]

Exactly anart great analogy but not asking where is the food more asking how am I doing. Maybe a reassurance thing. As I am afraid I might not be progressing, as I should.

Part of my problem is even when I am doing well or if I think something is off or I could be doing better I need reassurance - I feel this is a snag that I might hit in the road a self destructive thing

We all hit lots of snags in the road, what we do when we hit them is what matters. Regarding 'how you are doing' - I think the proof is in the pudding. Go back and compare your very first posts here that you wrote on this forum (and others' responses to your posts) to the latest posts you've written, and others responses. What do you see? ;)

 

[Peam]

The Psychology Of Man's Possible Evolution - P 67

Influence C can be transferred only by the world of mouth by direct instruction explanation and demonstration

Gurdjieff and Ouspensky lived in a time where they never envisioned a time when the internet can connect people, where they can converse more or less instantly. Because of the internet, Word of mouth that G and O spoke of could be replaced by a forum like this, instant communication with a large group of students and teachers too large to fit into one of G's living room gatherings.

Now this leads me to what I am trying to get at…Where to look for these schools and teachers. Yes the forum is great and without it I would not be where I am on the learning curve but its sort of like Ive had a piece of cake it was great now where is the whole pie.

Congratulations Menna, you've found "these schools and teachers" but you don't seem to recognise it yet. I think I recognise C influences from some on this forum, but by the very nature of a person of C influences they aern't going to own up to it are they?

 

[Menna]

Truth Seaker - Yes I am trying to find more of a direct path in order to avoid mistakes. But I guess making a mistake once isn't a negative thing.

Alada - In the books written by O and G they say the word demonstrations so I am assuming that these demonstrations can only be done in person. As far as conversing with someone I find it easier to learn or I absorb the spoken word better then the written word so I guess that is my own personal preference to be in person and not on the computer. That doesn't mean that I can't progress. And by dynamic I mean seeing the person you are speaking to being there with them with the group. Doesn't mean that I can't progress but for me I learn better in person then over the computer. So these statements are more selfish for my own personal preference then a general statement for everyone.

This whole thing is selfish as I am trying to find out the best direct path for me or for someone to point out an example of C influence because I know what A and B influences are but I am not 100% sure what a C influence is.

I do recognize when someone calls me out on my issues or points out something to me that I am missing or can see the real reason I am asking a question I am great full for that and I thank everyone but Im not sure if that is C influence or is that someone being a mirror - is a good mirror C influence?

 

[Eongar]

Before worrying about the magnetic center, first to be given self
account, "check" the mechanic. If you recognize its nullity, can
consider opening a door to start the job.

And just one first has to self Remembering, and realize before
that do not remember. And once they practice self-remembering and checks
empirical manifestations of Reality-by level of Being, will
possible to absorb the influences B knowing discern as you go
in its path. When you have passed the relevant processes will know that you created
fused magnetic center. Ie first 1 and then 2.All
comes at the appropriate time.

I do recognize when someone calls me out on my issues or points out something to me that I am missing or can see the real reason I am asking a question I am great full for that and I thank everyone but Im not sure if that is C influence or is that someone being a mirror - is a good mirror C influence?

here the definition of mirror http://glossary.cassiopaea.com/glossary.php?id=492&lsel=

 

[Approaching Infinity]

It is impossible to untangle the two, because both originate from the same premise of a person accessing the Esoteric Center without needing influences from a master, school or network (C influences) and telling others about it.

I think we are using different dictionaries. One does not 'access' the Magnetic Center - one fuses it - creates it, through conscious suffering and a lot of Work. Have you read Gurdjieff and Mouravieff?

I think whitecoast is referring to the esoteric center that Mouravieff talks about:

The ensemble of 'A' influences forms the Law of Chance or Law
ofAccident. Man is subject to its rule, yet if we examine the figure
more closely we will perceive that each black arrow is
counterbalanced, neutralized in some other part by another arrow equal
in force and diametrically opposed, so that if we had left them to effectively
neutralize each other the resultant force would have been equal to zero. This
means that in their ensemble the 'A' influences are illusory in their nature,
although the effect of each one of them is real, so that exterior man takes
them for reality. The white circle represents the esoteric Centre, located
outside the general laws of life.

The white arrows represent influences called 'B'. These influences are
thrown into the turmoil of life and originate from the esoteric Centre,
treated outside life, these arrows are all oriented in the same direction.
In their ensemble they form a sort of magnetic field. [...]

But if he emerges a winner in this first struggle, his magnetic centre,
consolidated and reinforced, will draw him to a man having a 'C influ-
ence stronger than his own, and possessing a stronger magnetic centre. And
so on in succession, the last man being in connection with another having
an influence 'D', who will be his link with the Esoteric Centre 'E'.

Henceforth in life, that man will no longer be isolated. He will certainly
continue to live as before under the action of the 'A' influences, which for a
long time will continue to exercise their power over him; yet little by little,
thanks to the effect of the influence of the chain 'B'-'C'-'D'-'E', his
magnetic centre will develop. To the measure of its growth, the man will
escape the dominion of the Law of Chance and enter the domain of
Consciousness.

As for an example of C influences, the Cs are one (pun intended?). If I'm reading the above correctly, I think Mouravieff is saying that for those in contact with a person with a strong C influence (that would be Laura and Ark), that individual serves as a D influence on those without such a strong connection, i.e. one step removed. But regardless of the details, I think the point to remember is that there's a strong 'bootstrap' principle to the cosmos. A teacher IS necessary, as a rule I think. Even for those rare individuals who attain the heights of development (e.g. Jesus), they must have contact with something higher than themselves (a C influence, like the Cs) in order to bootstrap their development. It's a natural process.

 

[Alada]

Truth Seaker - Yes I am trying to find more of a direct path in order to avoid mistakes. But I guess making a mistake once isn't a negative thing.

No, making mistakes is important, is how we learn. One of the successes of the control system is that it keeps everyone separate, afraid, scared to act, to make mistakes and be wrong. I can often be wrong, I make many mistakes and realise often how much I lack knowledge. But I want to learn, to be free. Better to try and to learn from my mistakes, than to keep silent and do nothing.

[quote author=Menna]
Alada - In the books written by O and G they say the word demonstrations so I am assuming that these demonstrations can only be done in person. As far as conversing with someone I find it easier to learn or I absorb the spoken word better then the written word so I guess that is my own personal preference to be in person and not on the computer. That doesn't mean that I can't progress. And by dynamic I mean seeing the person you are speaking to being there with them with the group. Doesn't mean that I can't progress but for me I learn better in person then over the computer. So these statements are more selfish for my own personal preference then a general statement for everyone.
[/quote]

Okay. We have to be watchful of what we assume, remembering that most often our thinking is based on wrong assumptions, imagination. Gurdjieff and Ouspensky write about such things or their words are recorded by others, but often the detail is left out. This is deliberately so I think, to guard against imagination or others trying to replicate without knowing the what or the whys of it. As Peam as noted, the internet in modern times makes things rather different, perhaps we shouldn't be expecting to find a 'school' to be exactly the same as even the relatively recent past?

[quote author=Menna]
This whole thing is selfish as I am trying to find out the best direct path for me or for someone to point out an example of C influence because I know what A and B influences are but I am not 100% sure what a C influence is.
[/quote]

If that is your aim, then selfish or not perhaps it is no bad thing if you can help others along the way in fulfilling it.

As far as I understand it, Influence C is the direct influence of a person, or group, or school. An influence whose knowledge, ideas and inspiration come from an objective source, from higher mind, objective consciousness. Such a person, or group, or school would have a connection, either directly or indirectly, with the Esoteric Centre. That is to say, connection with a sphere of influence which is lays outside of life in general.

Influence C then might be seen as a living, active influence. As opposed to static B influences found in books, or objective art for example. If you are interacting with a living thing, be that a person or group, the impressions received are different to reading an idea in a book.

Influence C acts upon us when to some extent we have developed Magnetic Centre. It is a living conscious influence that guides us further, acts upon us according to our particular needs and make up. I don't know to be able to say, "it is exactly this", or even if that is possible.

Perhaps one way to discover the best direct path to follow is to do what seems right to you? Same with discerning A influences from B influences, its a matter of 'taste'.

To develop the analogy further, growing Magnetic Centre might be compared to refining one's palate and improving one's diet as a whole. If one is interested in such things then a good recipe book will be recognised when it is found, as indeed will a cookery school. For those who prefer fast food, who do not have a 'taste for things that are true', they will just be yet more books and schools.

 

[anart]

I think whitecoast is referring to the esoteric center that Mouravieff talks about:

Yes, I see that now - apologies, whitecoast, for some reason I was missing that in what you wrote, thinking you were referring to the Magnetic Center the whole time when you weren't. I still stand by what I've written regarding fusing a Magnetic Center on one's own, but apologies for the confusion I inserted into the discussion.

 

[cubbex]

I have a question. How did Laura got her real "I" without this network?

It was because of the cs' transmission?

 

[Approaching Infinity]

I have a question. How did Laura got her real "I" without this network?

It was because of the cs' transmission?

I think the short answer is yes. The Cs were her network. But it wasn't just the communication, it was the hard work that resulted from the communication. (She can correct me if I'm wrong!)

 

[obyvatel]

I have a question. How did Laura got her real "I" without this network?

It was because of the cs' transmission?

I think the short answer is yes. The Cs were her network. But it wasn't just the communication, it was the hard work that resulted from the communication. (She can correct me if I'm wrong!)

Also factor in the decades worth of persistent effort she put in studying and discerning what is true and what is not by herself that ultimately led to the C's transmissions.
[quote author=Gnosis]
But if he emerges a winner in this first struggle, his magnetic centre, consolidated and reinforced, will draw him to a man having a 'C influence stronger than his own, and possessing a stronger magnetic centre. And so on in succession, the last man being in connection with another having an influence 'D', who will be his link with the Esoteric Centre 'E'.
Henceforth in life, that man will no longer be isolated. He will certainly continue to live as before under the action of the 'A' influences, which for a long time will continue to exercise their power over him; yet little by little, thanks to the effect of the influence of the chain 'B'-'C'-'D'-'E', his magnetic centre will develop.
[/quote]

I tend to consider the C's as representing the Esoteric Center E. Laura forged her connection with the Esoteric Center through years of acquiring knowledge and conscious suffering. Then she built the network which now serves as the source of C influences in this school.

That is my current understanding - fwiw.

 

[cubbex]

And Ark??

It is supposedly that you need a network to create the magnetic center.

 

[Alada]

It is supposedly that you need a network to create the magnetic center.

No, magnetic centre develops in us via the ideas and knowledge we absorb. A person can sit alone reading and develop magnetic centre, if those ideas read are of Influence B.

Having a network is certainly going to help in developing magnetic centre though, especially if said network has already invested a lot of time and energy in discerning the quality and integrity of information (influences) shared. The curious thing then is that many people who connect with the network still receive certain ideas as if they were of Influence A, whereas others receive them as Influence B. So perhaps we can say that those who come here and are interested in the ideas, the work, and who recognise the value in it already have magnetic centre forming to some degree. The aim then is in refining the process of discerning between A and B influences in ones life so as to strengthen the centre further.

 

[Mrs. Peel]

And what is QFS? I have seen it mentioned here before never look into it

Oh sorry. Used to be an incarnation called the Quantum Future School before the Forum came along...