davey72 said:I havent taken them at all for awhile but there were periods of time that i would need ten mgs. It never seemed to have an effect on me other than i was able to fall asleep if i went to bed. I think it is different for everyone.
Alada said:I’ve been using melatonin again recently to help get my sleep cycle back on track after a hectic few months.
Nienna said:davey72 said:I havent taken them at all for awhile but there were periods of time that i would need ten mgs. It never seemed to have an effect on me other than i was able to fall asleep if i went to bed. I think it is different for everyone.
If you think that the 10mg is too much just break/cut it in half.
I have to take 6mg to notice any sleepiness so I'm sure that the affects of melatonin is different for everyone in other areas as well.
Fluffy said:I've taken melatonin in the past and had dreams that I could recite every detail of and woke up feeling fresher than fresh. This time though I'm not falling asleep as well on the same dose of 3 mg I haven't remembered a dream for 3 months and I wake up absolutely trashed after 8 hours of fairly solid sleep in a pitch black room that has no electrical devices in it. It takes me about half an hour of laying on the floor and dragging myself around wishing I was still in bed before I start to come good in the morning. I fantasise about going back to bed all morning but when bub is ready for her 12 noon sleep do you think I can lay down and shut my eyes too??? No way. It's torture.
I tried upping the dose and there was no difference. Last night I tried to go to sleep without it and there was no difference there either.... My brain has been flat out but coming up with very little I can use as a valid thought. I am doing thought loops, usually song lyrics but just one line or phrase. I'm also spending way too much time in past events that have no significance or learning angles.
I have EE waiting for me to get the head space to remember to do it. I'm a bit of a mess. Good friend mel isn't helping at all.
Entraining Central and Peripheral Circadian Rhythms
Posted on January 29, 2015 | 52 Comments
“Desynchronization between the central and peripheral clocks by, for instance, altered timing of food intake, can lead to uncoupling of peripheral clocks from the central pacemaker and is, in humans, related to the development of metabolic disorders, including obesity and type 2 diabetes.”
If you haven’t been following along, a few papers came out recently which dissect this aspect of circadian rhythms — setting the central vs. peripheral clocks.
In brief (1): Central rhythms are set, in part, by a “light-entrainable oscillator (LEO),” located in the brain. In this case, the zeitgeber is LIGHT.
Peripheral rhythms are controlled both by the brain, and the “food-entrainable oscillator (FEO),” which is reflected in just about every tissue in the body – and is differentially regulated in most tissues. In this case, the zeitgeber is FOOD.
In brief (2): Bright light in the morning starts the LEO, and one readout is “dim-light melatonin onset (DLMO),” or melatonin secretion in the evening. Note the importance of timing (bright light *in the morning*) – if bright light occurs later in the day, DLMO is blunted: no bueno.
Morning bright light and breakfast (FEO) kickstart peripheral circadian rhythms, and one readout is diurnal regulation of known circadian genes in the periphery. This happens differently (almost predictably) in different tissues: liver, a tissue which is highly involved in the processing of food, is rapidly entrained by food intake, whereas lung is slower.
Starting the central pacemarker with bright light in the morning but skimping on the peripheral pacemaker by skipping breakfast represents a circadian mismatch: Afternoon Diabetes? Central and peripheral circadian rhythms work together. Bright light and breakfast in the morning.
itellsya said:Fluffy said:I've taken melatonin in the past and had dreams that I could recite every detail of and woke up feeling fresher than fresh. This time though I'm not falling asleep as well on the same dose of 3 mg I haven't remembered a dream for 3 months and I wake up absolutely trashed after 8 hours of fairly solid sleep in a pitch black room that has no electrical devices in it. It takes me about half an hour of laying on the floor and dragging myself around wishing I was still in bed before I start to come good in the morning. I fantasise about going back to bed all morning but when bub is ready for her 12 noon sleep do you think I can lay down and shut my eyes too??? No way. It's torture.
I tried upping the dose and there was no difference. Last night I tried to go to sleep without it and there was no difference there either.... My brain has been flat out but coming up with very little I can use as a valid thought. I am doing thought loops, usually song lyrics but just one line or phrase. I'm also spending way too much time in past events that have no significance or learning angles.
I have EE waiting for me to get the head space to remember to do it. I'm a bit of a mess. Good friend mel isn't helping at all.
I hear ya Fluffy. I'm sorry your having to go through it and i don't have any quick fix to offer. Going Keto has done wonders and melatonin, magnesium, magnesium baths, eating my last meal as early as possible etc.. really contribute to any success in sleeping 'on time' but i'm still struggling and have inflammation and psychological baggage to overcome - like you i can't 'nap'; unless it's first thing in the morning! ;) I wish you the best
I came across this article on twitter by Bill Lakgos (sp?) from Calories Proper. He tends to write a lot about sleep which i obviously appreciate and i can attest to what he's saying about eating early. And i do try to expose myself to as bright a light as England in winter has to offer!
I figured it's melatonin related and many of us are supplementing with it because we struggle with sleep, but it probably should be in an insomnia thread - but i can't find one solely for it.
Going Keto actually enabled me to adjust my sleeping pattern so i could eat early and not feeling peckish later. Also, i heard that people who work in aviation used the 'skip a meal and only eat in your new timezone when a meal would be served' - and that the food was the only thing more powerful than your circadian clock. Apparently the below supports that notion: (i've pasted the summary)
Entraining Central and Peripheral Circadian Rhythms
Posted on January 29, 2015 | 52 Comments
“Desynchronization between the central and peripheral clocks by, for instance, altered timing of food intake, can lead to uncoupling of peripheral clocks from the central pacemaker and is, in humans, related to the development of metabolic disorders, including obesity and type 2 diabetes.”
If you haven’t been following along, a few papers came out recently which dissect this aspect of circadian rhythms — setting the central vs. peripheral clocks.
In brief (1): Central rhythms are set, in part, by a “light-entrainable oscillator (LEO),” located in the brain. In this case, the zeitgeber is LIGHT.
Peripheral rhythms are controlled both by the brain, and the “food-entrainable oscillator (FEO),” which is reflected in just about every tissue in the body – and is differentially regulated in most tissues. In this case, the zeitgeber is FOOD.
In brief (2): Bright light in the morning starts the LEO, and one readout is “dim-light melatonin onset (DLMO),” or melatonin secretion in the evening. Note the importance of timing (bright light *in the morning*) – if bright light occurs later in the day, DLMO is blunted: no bueno.
Morning bright light and breakfast (FEO) kickstart peripheral circadian rhythms, and one readout is diurnal regulation of known circadian genes in the periphery. This happens differently (almost predictably) in different tissues: liver, a tissue which is highly involved in the processing of food, is rapidly entrained by food intake, whereas lung is slower.
Starting the central pacemarker with bright light in the morning but skimping on the peripheral pacemaker by skipping breakfast represents a circadian mismatch: Afternoon Diabetes? Central and peripheral circadian rhythms work together. Bright light and breakfast in the morning.
Fluffy said:itellsya said:Fluffy said:I've taken melatonin in the past and had dreams that I could recite every detail of and woke up feeling fresher than fresh. This time though I'm not falling asleep as well on the same dose of 3 mg I haven't remembered a dream for 3 months and I wake up absolutely trashed after 8 hours of fairly solid sleep in a pitch black room that has no electrical devices in it. It takes me about half an hour of laying on the floor and dragging myself around wishing I was still in bed before I start to come good in the morning. I fantasise about going back to bed all morning but when bub is ready for her 12 noon sleep do you think I can lay down and shut my eyes too??? No way. It's torture.
I tried upping the dose and there was no difference. Last night I tried to go to sleep without it and there was no difference there either.... My brain has been flat out but coming up with very little I can use as a valid thought. I am doing thought loops, usually song lyrics but just one line or phrase. I'm also spending way too much time in past events that have no significance or learning angles.
I have EE waiting for me to get the head space to remember to do it. I'm a bit of a mess. Good friend mel isn't helping at all.
I hear ya Fluffy. I'm sorry your having to go through it and i don't have any quick fix to offer. Going Keto has done wonders and melatonin, magnesium, magnesium baths, eating my last meal as early as possible etc.. really contribute to any success in sleeping 'on time' but i'm still struggling and have inflammation and psychological baggage to overcome - like you i can't 'nap'; unless it's first thing in the morning! ;) I wish you the best
I came across this article on twitter by Bill Lakgos (sp?) from Calories Proper. He tends to write a lot about sleep which i obviously appreciate and i can attest to what he's saying about eating early. And i do try to expose myself to as bright a light as England in winter has to offer!
I figured it's melatonin related and many of us are supplementing with it because we struggle with sleep, but it probably should be in an insomnia thread - but i can't find one solely for it.
Going Keto actually enabled me to adjust my sleeping pattern so i could eat early and not feeling peckish later. Also, i heard that people who work in aviation used the 'skip a meal and only eat in your new timezone when a meal would be served' - and that the food was the only thing more powerful than your circadian clock. Apparently the below supports that notion: (i've pasted the summary)
Entraining Central and Peripheral Circadian Rhythms
Posted on January 29, 2015 | 52 Comments
“Desynchronization between the central and peripheral clocks by, for instance, altered timing of food intake, can lead to uncoupling of peripheral clocks from the central pacemaker and is, in humans, related to the development of metabolic disorders, including obesity and type 2 diabetes.”
If you haven’t been following along, a few papers came out recently which dissect this aspect of circadian rhythms — setting the central vs. peripheral clocks.
In brief (1): Central rhythms are set, in part, by a “light-entrainable oscillator (LEO),” located in the brain. In this case, the zeitgeber is LIGHT.
Peripheral rhythms are controlled both by the brain, and the “food-entrainable oscillator (FEO),” which is reflected in just about every tissue in the body – and is differentially regulated in most tissues. In this case, the zeitgeber is FOOD.
In brief (2): Bright light in the morning starts the LEO, and one readout is “dim-light melatonin onset (DLMO),” or melatonin secretion in the evening. Note the importance of timing (bright light *in the morning*) – if bright light occurs later in the day, DLMO is blunted: no bueno.
Morning bright light and breakfast (FEO) kickstart peripheral circadian rhythms, and one readout is diurnal regulation of known circadian genes in the periphery. This happens differently (almost predictably) in different tissues: liver, a tissue which is highly involved in the processing of food, is rapidly entrained by food intake, whereas lung is slower.
Starting the central pacemarker with bright light in the morning but skimping on the peripheral pacemaker by skipping breakfast represents a circadian mismatch: Afternoon Diabetes? Central and peripheral circadian rhythms work together. Bright light and breakfast in the morning.
Ah thanks for the information itellsya.
I eat dinner at 6 and usually don't eat again til lunch or later the next day, I'll try to push myself to eat breakfast and see if that helps. I often walk in the morning and go out first thing before I do anything else when I get up and sit in the sun for my morning ciggie.
Last night was better than others. I had 3mg at 10pm and went to bed at 11. I had a lot of dreams that I could remember snippets of and I got up at 7 feeling pretty good. (Saturday today so my partner is home and said to me to go back to bed if I want, I didn't want tho- typical, I'll probably want to on Monday ;) )
One thing I did do different was a large dinner compared to my usual skimp of protein drowned in butter. There was left over bacon the had been cooked that no one wanted and I couldn't bear the thought of throwing it out because it's expensive so I ate it. I was really full still when I went to bed.
I might try magnesium again too with my night time dose of mel and see if that helps . Seriously, I just plain and simple forgot that I have a bottle of that. My memory loss is a major concern of mine. I used to have an amazing memory (full of useless info) but now it's getting increasingly worse
D'Ankhiar said:This is probably gonna blow everyone away, but I take 50mg every night*. I don't recall the very small dosages ever doing anything to me. Besides a slight headache the first morning* after, 50mg didn't have any sort of negative effect on me. And it also didn't make me hallucinate, it really just didn't do anything, aside from helping me sleep peacefully. Maybe my body is just very resistant? Or troubled? Most likely both.
D'Ankhiar said:Here's another thing. I tend to sleep during the day and be awake during the night most of the time. It's not a need, just a choice. A very unhealthy one. I decided I would stop that though. I have been sleeping during the night, while being active during the day these past few days. I want to keep it like this. I will also get off melatonin for a while, and pick it up again at 10mg when I do.
D'Ankhiar said:I guess I'm one of those people that are either "go hard or go home." And what I mean by that is, if I can't do something fully, then why do it at all. Obviously in my mind, I don't agree with it, and it's something I'm gradually changing. The thing is that I'm not able to commit to the full package when it comes to the healthy lifestyle, like switching to keto diet and the likes. So I pretty much throw myself under the bus with everything else, because I'm already doing something that is not good for me, why stop there? Right? No. But like I said, I'm working on changing it. Even the smallest of change can make a difference.
I did a very quick research before I started taking melatonin (I started at 10mg at the time), and didn't find anything alarming either, which is why I thought 50mg wasn't going to be unhealthy. I think Laura have also mentioned that our bodies get rid of the extra. Better safe than sorry, though, which is why I'm going to change that. I'm just giving my body some time to do whatever without it. It just feels right to wait a bit, even if not exactly necessary. I guess I will also keep it on the small dosages.Immersion said:I've looked around for information on toxicity levels of melatonin (since that is an alarming dosage to be taking regularly) and couldn't seem to find much, but most doctors and guides recommend 3-5mg's for the average adult.
Do you sleep in a blacked-out room? That small change can make a huge difference to the quality of sleep we get and helps our melatonin build up naturally while we're sleeping. More information about that plus a lot more useful information on sleeping can be found here in this thread this thread
Thank you :)Immersion said:This was a similar theme for me over the last couple of years. I think the main cause was adrenal fatigue resulting from a bad diet/high carbohydrate consumption, coupled with poor lifestyle choices. The keto diet and the EE meditation program REALLY helped with that. Kudos to you for breaking that cycle. :)