Michael Jackson Dies

[Turgon]

I have been a huge fan of Michael Jackson for a long time but there's no doubt left in my mind that he was a pedophile. I was already leaning towards that conclusion from all the child sexual abuse allegations over the years, but watching Leaving Neverland and some of the additional videos posted here, like the ones with Jim Clemente has really confirmed it.

Through the first half of the documentary I was trying to justify to myself why he did what he did and continued to abuse children for as long as he did, even after the first scandal and case broke out in 1993. It was because of his upbringing, he never raped or forced himself on any of the children, etc. so he can't be that bad, right? But once I got to part 2, realized I was under the same spell and hypnosis that a lot of MJ fans are still under.

He was extremely cunning and calculating for decades, not just with manipulating young boys and their families, but also hiding it for so long. Who knows if this was entirely a product of his upbringing, and if that's the case, isn't he still responsible for his actions as an adult, even if he refused to grow up? After all, that's still a choice.

 

[Hi_Henry]

Why would any of those parents let their children stay with a 36 year old man who lives in "Neverland". I think it says a lot about the maturity of the parents.

I'm a bit more cynical and do not believe that it is the parents "maturity" that led them to behave this way. The prospect of $$$ in the Future is what I see as the driver. Star Power (MJ) can blind people but in the end Hollywood is all about hopes for a career to make big money. Even mature people can be fooled by this scam industry.

This kind of behavior reminds me of the parents who "drive" their little girls to participate in beauty pageants. Chance of winning big is close to ZERO but parents nevertheless spent huge money attempting it. One would think that a rational thinker would invest the money in education, but it is not so. Now there is a confused and lost crowd of people.

 

[goyacobol]

I'm a bit more cynical and do not believe that it is the parents "maturity" that led them to behave this way. The prospect of $$$ in the Future is what I see as the driver.

I think that is a good possibility too which makes it even more disgusting.

 

[Hi_Henry]

He was extremely cunning and calculating for decades, not just with manipulating young boys and their families, but also hiding it for so long. Who knows if this was entirely a product of his upbringing, and if that's the case, isn't he still responsible for his actions as an adult, even if he refused to grow up? After all, that's still a choice.

If MJ was some run of the mill guy on the street he wouldn't get any sympathy, guilty period. Being a Star, people in this category get A LOT of slack when it comes to bizarre or criminal behavior. The only reason I have more empathy for MJ is that I have the information as to HOW this guy was brought up and the type of environment he lived in.

MJ needed help but I seriously doubt that he alone would have been able to reach out for it. I think that he would have needed it imposed on him because choosing to get it would have been a huge mountain to climb. I appreciate the meaning of the word "choice" from the simple act of trying to mediate. I appreciate the meaning of the word "choice" even more when I happened to see some episodes of “Celebrity Rehab with Dr. Drew”. That series opened my eyes a bit wider to the destructive nature of Life in Hollywood. I saw Stars trying to make the right choices and failing over and over again, some eventually simply dying from this failure. Now that is probable just the tip of the iceberg in this population of "successful people".

Whatever the truth with MJ, he was a Lost Soul among millions of such souls. He was nothing special beside the fact that he was a Hollywood Star. He was just a human being dealt a very difficult hand to play. Not for a second would I want his money and his problems. I continue to believe that the current attack on him is purely motivated by $$$$ and not about doing something good. Oprah and Company are not about doing Good. They are about making Money.

 

[Siberia]

Just finished watching the documentary. What a sad story, it was really painful to watch. So many people are still suffering the consequences of MJ's actions, families broken, parents and siblings devastated and still cannot forgive each other.

There is no excuse for what he did, and the "man-child" narrative is just a narrative. He manipulated the boys and their families, threatened them, lied to them. It was disgusting to watch his repeated lies and manipulations.

 

[ashu]

Yes it is a painful watch - and thank you for covering SOTT crew. Like most of the world, we were all hoodwinked to thinking MJ was innocent. But after watching Leaving Neverland, I did a full 180. Wow, what a wolf in sheeps clothing.

It's interesting how when James and Wade had their own children, it seems this brought things to the surface. As if no more hiding / suppressing now, you have got to confront the truth.

 

[Turgon]

@Hi_Henry, have you watched the documentary? You can't impose yourself on someone in order to help them. The greatest help you could possibly give is the kind that respects the other persons freewill and giving only if they were sincerely asking. MJ was rather a master manipulator, and I don't buy into the 'poor, Michael' narrative - not anymore. Plus, I'm of the impression that Wade Robson and Jimmy Safechuck could have really helped Michael Jackson during the second trial by actually telling the truth instead of lying or staying quiet to protect him. Granted, they were still teenagers and young adults and didn't want the exposure or to admit to the world that they were molested by him, but MJ obviously didn't learn from his mistakes and still thought he could get away with it, even after the first trial. People said he wouldn't be able to survive in prison, but celebrities as powerful as him would ultimately get special treatment, perks, privileges and protection of all kinds. But at least with that kind of shock received, he might have actually looked at himself in the mirror and seen some cracks in the delusional narratives that he immersed himself in and decided to seek some sort of help.

 

[Martina]

I never liked the guy. I don't like the postmodern idea that if you're good at something you do (like music) all of your sins will be forgiven. But I had the same disappointment with David Bowie, I liked his music.

 

[IronFloyd]

To me, one of the things that I have been most shocked by the commotion that the HBO documentary has generated is the immense number of people who support Michael Jackson arguing that everything is a montage to discredit his image.

The truth is that personally, I was an absolute Michael Jackson fan, like a millions of children in the world. I had my room full of posters with his image, his music was part of my life, and even I believed that I was MJ, he was my absolute hero, I used shorter pants and white socks, and I even saw him live at his concert here in Chile in 1993, which for me was a "dream come true".

At that time, the press was talking about these accusations, and I always believed that they were just tricks to get money, until I saw this documentary even in incredulous and annoying way. With the passing of the minutes, I could see that it's quite objective and that it shows that Michael Jackson was an absolutely sick, deranged and pedophile guy.

It has been incredible to appreciate how people finally adore and become attached to their imposed sacred cows.

 

[Arwenn]

At that time, the press was talking about these accusations, and I always believed that they were just tricks to get money, until I saw this documentary even in incredulous and annoying way. With the passing of the minutes, I could see that it's quite objective and that it shows that Michael Jackson was an absolutely sick, deranged and pedophile guy.

I couldn't have said it better myself, IronFloyd. MJ was a pop icon and a huge part of the pop culture in the 70s and 80s. Like you, I just dismissed the sexual misconduct allegations as nothing but a money grab, and bought into the whole MJ is the victim here shtick. It wasn't until I watched the documentary as well as the Jim Clemente videos posted here, that I started to think otherwise. It was very difficult to watch Leaving Neverland in parts (actually pretty much the whole thing turned my stomach), but it did bring to light just how well he manipulated the people around him, and how well he groomed the boys. MJ certainly had us all fooled!!

 

[sebbe]

A documentary of public utility that should be broadcast in schools (with some editing cuts).
It is terrible to see how much the victims seem to be able to live normally for a while with what has happened to them, and then to see that this is not the case.
A process is taking place, which could look like an attempt at natural healing if it could be well channelled and helped, a destruction if the process is not understood or if it is fought.

Only an unconscious mind could think that since a child seems to be able to live normally during his or her period of abuse (which can last several years), there is no damage and sequelae caused to his or her mind and personality. And of course, only a perverted and degenerate mind does so knowingly.

It should be noted that the victims never cry over what happened to them. They cry only when it comes to the painful implications that all this has on those around them : brother and sister, child. Fractionation, dissociation, probable symptoms of irreversible damage to the minds of these children, some of whom still love their executioners.

Thank you Niall for motivating the vision of this documentary.

 

[Keit]

I finally finished watching this disturbing documentary. As mentioned by others, in the first part I was also still kind of undecided. The description was too direct and a matter of fact. But in the second part you hear the afterward story, and since there are two people, their stories and coping actually differ. And this is when you get that what they say is very much genuine.

I also watched the 60 minutes Australia interview with the maid. Well, she is rather unreliable and I don't believe that she was afraid for her life. But they did show additional data and how these kids, grown up already, defended Michael. And the maid did the same thing. It's crazy how skilled he was at manipulation. At this point there is no doubt that he was a dangerous pedophile.

I do blame the parents and think that they played a pivotal role in delivering their kids to this predator.

And just a note that this film was also shown in Russia and created an uproar among many media people. Here's one of the reviews (in Russian) from Sam Klebanov (he is a famous activist of the Russian and Swedish film industry, distributor, producer and TV host). He also says that after watching the movie there is no doubt that MJ was a sexual predator.

 

[Gwenllian]

I finally finished watching this disturbing documentary. As mentioned by others, in the first part I was also still kind of undecided. The description was too direct and a matter of fact. But in the second part you hear the afterward story, and since there are two people, their stories and coping actually differ. And this is when you get that what they say is very much genuine.

I found the first part very hard to watch, because I realised (maybe for the first time, on a visceral level) how grooming really works and how MJ devised the perfect grooming method, pulling out all the stops, including a wine cellar which the parents had access to (so, one of the mothers was literally and figuratively under the influence). I had to stop watching a couple of times and do something else, before I could continue.

I do blame the parents and think that they played a pivotal role in delivering their kids to this predator.

I wholeheartedly agree. Even if they didn't notice any predatory behaviour in the beginning on the part of Jackson there were plenty of signs (more like billboards) afterwards, because the grooming took place gradually. He was probably grooming (many) other families and their kids at various stages at that point.
I also thought it was disturbing that one of the kids was allowed to enter a competition, dressing up like an adult and copying MJ's every move. There was nothing innocent about that.

 

[goyacobol]

I do blame the parents and think that they played a pivotal role in delivering their kids to this predator.

I do think Michael's parents may also have played "a pivotal role" also in creating this predator...(not always since predators can also just be born as in examples from Inside the Criminal Mind describes many)...

This is not a documentary but a kind of quick summary in video format that blames the dad but the mother was watching it happen too. I am sure there are better researched sources.

This thread may be an important learning process even though it's painful to look at the ugly parts of anyones' life.

 

[Jones]

While he took his sweet time about it, apparently Michael Jacksons biographer claims to have uncovered some inconsistencies in the the stories on Leaving Neverland:

Michael Jackson's biographer claims to have new evidence which disproves some of the child sexual abuse allegations made in shocking documentary Leaving Neverland.

Mike Smallcombe, a British journalist and author of Making Michael, appeared on Sunrise to share his findings with Kochie and Sam.

He says that key parts of the allegations are inconsistent with facts surrounding the construction of Jackson’s Neverland’s train station.

In the documentary, it's claimed that Jackson abused boys in a train station that he'd built at his California ranch Neverland from 1988 to 1992.

However, planning documents uncovered by Smallcombe found that the train station hadn’t been built until 1993.

Smallcombe also said that he uncovered historic testimony by alleged victim Wade Robson's mother that contradicts the allegations in the two-part film.

Watch the interview above.

There's a live interview with Smallcombe in the link.

Michael Jackson’s biographer claims new evidence disproves ‘Leaving Neverland’ abuse

Mike Smallcombe claims to have evidence which discredits abuse allegations made in the shocking documentary.

7news.com.au