Michael Jackson Dies

[vinny]

Lara..this is not a game, it's a way of trying to see oneself in different ways, try to read your own post and your post toward anart from a different eye, without your emotions clouding your intellect. You can clearly not do that right now, because you feel offended in every possible way.

Lara, the fact that you feel personally slighted and offended (about something that on the surface shouldn't do that, because it isn't about you) is something you can notice about yourself and put to good use - it is useful warning flag that something else is going on internally. It will very likely benefit you to discover what that is.

 

[Breton]

I found this article to be quite interesting.

_http://www.scientificblogging.com/j_michael_bailey/was_michael_jackson_pedophile

I read this, and I recommend it, because it introduced some concepts that I had not encountered before, and I recognize that these concepts may be crucial in understanding some otherwise bizarre human behaviours.

Thanks for the link, Nathan.

_Breton_

 

[truth seeker]

One way we can also choose to take this discussion in is how being raised by a possible psychopath in an industry that in itself fosters psychopathic behavior can affect someone. This is not to take personal responsibility away from the individual. This may lead to many insights as well.

Perhaps Lara4unow is reacting to what has been said about Michael Jackson in the media and is feeling that this discussion is mirroring those views (please correct me if I'm wrong Lara).

I think people are really trying to understand what was in someones soul when that is almost impossible without speaking directly to them. This is one of the illusions of fame. It fools us into thinking we know who someone is when we don't. That coupled with the misinformation that is constantly fed to us with the intent of not only deceiving but to make money from it.

I think Michael Jackson had childhood demons that he was wrestling with as do many of us. I also think he did a better job of handling them than most. Once you have the ability to affect the thoughts and lives of many people, you will be attacked. We've seen this over and over again in history. One of the more popular ways seems to be character assassination. Perhaps that was done in Michael Jackson's case.

The last thing I'll say is that if it's true that we choose our own death (assuming there was no foul play in this situation), Maybe Michael Jackson chose to leave when he did. There may be many reasons for this. Maybe he saw what was coming and didn't want to be here for it, maybe his death at this time benefited many others (possibly raising the frequency of the world?). Maybe I'm completely wrong.

Lara4unow - please try not to feel attacked. If I'm interpreting what people are saying to you correctly, what they are trying to get you to look at is why you feel the way you do. Nothing more, nothing less.

There's something for all of us to learn here, I think.

 

[jeff]

Hello, I hope you will understand my post because english is not my mother tongue, but yesterday I watched this video on dailymotion (the french website) which is an extract from "the DangerousWorld Tour" (1992-1993) :
http://www.dailymotion.com/relevance/search/michael+Jackson+jam/video/x5bin1_michael-jackson-jam-dangerous-tour_music

I found some interesting facts:
-At the beginning of the song (which is in fact the beginning of the concert) we can see MJ adopting a sort of robot/psychopathic attitude.
-Look at the attitude of the fans, crying, being hysterical in front of a "nazi superman" played by MJ. Maybe it could be an allegory of our present world which promote psychopathic attitude. I don't know if I'm clear.
- MJ is dressed like a cop and his dancers like nazis....

Then there are the lyrics:
Jam lyrics
Nation To Nation
All The World
Must Come Together
Face The Problems
That We See
Then Maybe Somehow We Can Work It Out
I Asked My Neighbor
For A Favor
She Said Later
What Has Come Of
All The People
Have We Lost Love
Of What It's About

I Have To Find My Peace Cuz
No One Seems To Let Me Be
False Prophets Cry Of Doom
What Are The Possibilities
I Told My Brother
There'll Be Problems,
Times And Tears For Fears,
We Must Live Each Day
Like It's The Last

Go With It
Go With It
Jam
It Ain't Too Much Stuff
It Ain't Too Much
It Ain't Too Much For Me To
Jam
It Ain't
It Ain't Too Much Stuff
It Ain't
Don't You
It Ain't Too Much For Me To

The World Keeps Changing
Rearranging Minds
And Thoughts
Predictions Fly Of Doom
The Baby Boom
Has Come Of Age
We'll Work It Out

I Told My Brothers
Don't You Ask Me
For No Favors
I'm Conditioned By
The System
Don't You Talk To Me
Don't Scream And Shout

She Pray To God, To Buddha
Then She Sings A
Talmud Song
Confusions Contradict
The Self
Do We Know Right
From Wrong
I Just Want You To
Recognize Me
In The Temple
You Can't Hurt Me
I Found Peace
Within Myself
....

Did MJ wanted to tell something?
My two cents...

 

[Laura]

All in all I also feel that he may have been a struggling and naive person who was "milked".

This is very likely. He started as a child and all his life he has been "the thing" of the showbusiness world. Maybe the process of destroying him (his image to start with) started very early while at the same time using his talent to gain money.

Yeah, I figure, souled or not, he never had a chance. He was a public commodity by the time he was six, abused by his father Joe, never had any sort of real childhood or semblance of normal life at all. A rather tragic figure from the beginning who ended up so twisted, self-hating and deformed (inside and out) that I think that death is a huge benefit.

I'd not be at all surprised to find for certain that he was engaged in pedophilia - I think whoever he might have really been was destroyed very early on - that doesn't excuse it by any stretch of the imagination, but when you turn a very young child into a superstar, manipulate, abuse and milk him for his entire life - terrible things become possible.

I also think he was a true musical genius - it's a very harsh world for a child genius in the hands of wolves. Again - I'm not excusing the horrific things he's likely done - just stating that I really don't think he ever had a chance and by the time he turned 30 (maybe earlier), I think he was completely insane. Of course, I could be completely wrong.

Your statements above are full of subjective reactions and opinions such as " A rather tragic figure from the beginning who ended up so twisted, self-hating and deformed (inside and out) that I think that death is a huge benefit., I'm not excusing the horrific things he's likely done & " A rather tragic figure from the beginning who ended up so twisted, self-hating and deformed (inside and out) that I think that death is a huge benefit."

Of course, you maybe completely wrong, so why suggest and put forth such subjective opinions in this forum, where objective truth seeking is the rule? I am very disappointed in your statements, anart. As a moderator you should know better. What we do know is how his music touched many human beings hearts including mine. What we do not know, at all, is the truth of what or what did not happen with regard to pedophilia or anything he has been accused of. I say accused of because he is innocent until proven guilty. Unless you have been in his heart, in his physical shoes or anywhere near his soul essence, how could you make a statement like "ended up so twisted" (in who's description, the mainstream media which you read or what? or self-hating, did you ask him or deformed, in who's opinion?

I was going to respond to this post but the main points I would have made have been already made by other posters.

I'll just add that the moderators of this group, as a group, have literally YEARS of experience in sussing out what is going on with individuals who post to the internet either publicly or privately. A lot of this comes from reading posts/emails and then, over time, finding out who/what is really behind the words. Sometimes that even includes personally meeting individuals so as to be able to compare the words to the reality. In QFS, we have developed a pretty robust feedback mechanism for this sort of training of the BS Meter. It's not always "on the money" but it is right a very high percentage of the time.

Based on lara4unow's reaction to those words by anart, I would speculate that somehow, lara4unow must identify with individuals who are labeled "twisted, self-hating and deformed (inside and out)".

Either that, or lara4unow came to this forum with an agenda...

 

[Vladimir]

who/what is really behind the words. [/quote]

This is interesting question, who or what is really behind a words? where the chain ends and where it begins? You just made me contemplate about what am I just writing right now... Who am I in this Chain? Thnx Laura....

@Anart: your words are also interesting, kind a one step toward the eternal "light-dark" question, but in this important game, for who there is benefit from The Death from The Benefit, at The End?

Interesting, but all this confusion that I see around and inside myself started with The Birth of Phoenix, or? Looks kind a connected rather much...and at the end isn't everything connected into one network, you like this one....questions, questions, questions......

 

[lara4unow]

After sleeping on my posts and the resulting replies to them, I must admit that I see and feel things much differently today. I thank you all for the thoughtful suggestion for me to do this. So, I would like to humbly apologize to the moderators for the emotional reactions and comments I posted on this thread.

I realized after looking in the mirror, that I projected my disappointment and anger on others on the forum, when it was really about my own disappointment with me.

I wrote Michael Jackson off as a pedophile when the first accusations and trail occurred and I continued to feel discussed about him as more accusations over the years came forth. This was pre-SOTT and all of my new emerging way of practicing an objective thought process during emotional events such as the death of “icons” like Michael Jackson, Princess Diana, Martin Luther King, RFK and JFK. Pre-QFS and all of the reading I have done in the last 8 years has certainly put a stop to believing everything the mainstream media puts on both my conscious and subconscious.

After watching the Michael Jackson memorial and heard other people like Brooke Shield talk about the Michael Jackson she knew, I became subconsciously aware of my tainted opinion about him. I believe now that I was angry that I wrote him off before even looking at the “big picture” of the total of who he might have been. And again, I did in fact just lash out at others instead of acknowledge the root of my emotions, which were about my own judgments about him without a shred of evidence or deeper investigation on my part.

I reread my comments again as Anart, suggested and the lights went on. I felt so stupid and remorseful for being so blinded by my linear arrogance. However, I began to feel a huge weight being lifted off of me this morning as I forgave myself and renewed my work to change 30 years of academic programming. So thanks to all of you, who posted comments in reference to my loaded emotional machine gun yesterday. They all gave me a change to see and evaluate the things I said in a very different perspective.

The deep level of knowledge and compassion that the moderators and other multi-post contributors contribute to this forum never ceases to kindly amaze and surprise me. Just when I think I have all those sacred cows fenced in one or two just jump out and run over me.

Back a bit on topic. Thank you Nathan for this link,
_http://www.scientificblogging.com/j_michael_bailey/was_michael_jackson_pedophile
it was really eye opening especially for a behavioral and physical scientist like me. Because 1 billion people all over the world tuned in to the memorial maybe we should take the reaction to the death and life of Michael Jackson out of the “sand box” for the moment. I am not sure I have a whole lot more to say but I found the article at the link above to be fascinating because I am by my own definition “Middlesex” or androgynous and because it adds to the big picture of true genetic sexual diversity in world today. All sexual identities can have deviance, especially when it effects children or anyone who is in a lesser power position with respect to any physical or emotional situation or relationship.

I did have an agenda when I posted. This agenda was about my insecurities. I will take the time to read and maybe comment on some of the other responses to my posts but for now I would like to keep it simple.

Sincerely
lara

 

[lara4unow]

Quote from Laura 6-09-09
Based on lara4unow's reaction to those words by anart, I would speculate that somehow, lara4unow must identify with individuals who are labeled "twisted, self-hating and deformed (inside and out)".

Either that, or lara4unow came to this forum with an agenda...

I wrote the previous post before reading your post Laura. I would like to respond. Your comments have given me the chance to look even deeper into my agenda at this very moment. I must tell you are very close. I realize now that I was defending MJ as if I was being attacked. I had the same thing happen to me but not because of any labels or accusations of pedophilia, twisted, selft-hating and deformed (inside and out)”. They were about the very beliefs and theories we discuss on this forum. I was weird and crazy because I began to practice Reiki in my work, use aroma tinctures, crystals and talked about psychopaths. In short, I was giving way, way too much information and not protecting myself by discerning, who would eventually use this information to destroy the successful corporate healing practice I built. Thankfully, I was not spiritually, physically, or mentally destroyed in the long run but it did take an 8 year toll. During those 8 years, I discovered the cassiopaea site, all of your publications and books, SOTT and began to rebuild and change. All for the better and I am truely happier now. But, as an example of not a done dinner, I am still “damaged”. I can feel the empathy here on the forum and I am struggling but I think winning at not taking things so personally. Thanks for all you have done and continue relentlessly to do for us all. And again, I want to acknowledge the talent and kindness of all the other long standing QFS members and thank them for their never ending patience and commitment to help people like me who are still in the early development stages of the work. I know I have a lot to offer with my background, if I can only get out my own emotional way.
Laura (lara4unow)

 

[Johnno]

If you look at it, it's just another dead musician.

There's a lot of energy and identification invested in the whole deal on a personal and global level. So you're not alone.

I saw snippets of the memorial concert last night on the TV at work. What a strange piece of Hollywood razzle dazzle, like the Grammys with a casket. It was awful.

Anyway lara4now, it's good you let the "horse settle down for a bit" and have seen this through new eyes.

 

[Buddy]

There's something for all of us to learn here, I think.

I think truth seeker makes a good point (as did everyone).

I've enjoyed some of M.J.'s music myself, so I understand the emotional identification, but from my experience, it seems there is a common pattern of expression during misunderstandings, especially those involving emotional difficulties.

It seems to take the following form:

1. Something is said or a particular event is perceived. This is represented as (A).
2. The "victim" thinks or says, "It means he/she doesn't love me, he/she doesn't respect me, he/she insulted me, he/she doesn't like me, or whatever" [This interpretation is represented as (B) - which may have little or nothing to do with A.]
3. I don't understand B, or B is bad.
4. Therefore I don't understand A, or I'm upset by A.
The solution is to question our personal meanings for the troubling elements involved.

This pattern also happens on occasion during reading, where I realize I'm not understanding something because a passage got somehow interpreted from a different frame of reference than the author intended. The solution is the same as for the above interpretive pattern.

On a different note and for what it's worth, I've noticed that any time I see an atypical string of adjectives in a moderator's post such as what was pointed out, it is always followed by something like: "...or I could be completely wrong", in which case, it tends to make any judgemental comments on it's contents rather pointless. Or so I think.

 

[spyraal]

Hello Buddy,

On a different note and for what it's worth, I've noticed that any time I see an atypical string of adjectives in a moderator's post such as what was pointed out, it is always followed by something like: "...or I could be completely wrong", in which case, it tends to make any judgemental comments on it's contents rather pointless. Or so I think.

If i am allowed to have an opinion about this, i feel that the moderators honour their task wonderfully by rarely (if ever) casting any "atypical strings of adjectives" without explaining their reasoning. Also since this forum is a kind of a school, it is not that moderators cannot ever be wrong, but being advanced students their opinion should always deserve a rigorous and sober second thought for it's meaning instead of a spontaneous emotional response like the one we tend to have when our attachments are exposed. So, I guess that after a moderator has supported his arguments sufficiently and/or bears the responsibility and the added weight of a moderator's opinion, saying something like "...or I could be completely wrong" is to me more like a written gesture of modesty and openness towards other opinions by allowing space for further discussion, rather than a sign of uncertainty or self-doubt which somehow contradicts and cancels what was previously said. It is more like acknowledging that we are all part of an ever going process of awakening, growing and learning, and our views -reflecting that ever going change- change accordingly, so a certain degree of openness is always welcomed, as it promotes dialogue and can be a sign of wisdom. Or "i could be completely wrong" ;) ... Oops, I hope i did not render my post pointless now! :P Thank you.


:)

 

[anart]

So, I guess that after a moderator has supported his arguments sufficiently and/or bears the responsibility and the added weight of a moderator's opinion, saying something like "...or I could be completely wrong" is to me more like a written gesture of modesty and openness towards other opinions by allowing space for further discussion, rather than a sign of uncertainty or self-doubt which somehow contradicts and cancels what was previously said. It is more like acknowledging that we are all part of an ever going process of awakening, growing and learning, and our views -reflecting that ever going change- change accordingly, so a certain degree of openness is always welcomed, as it promotes dialogue and can be a sign of wisdom. Or "i could be completely wrong" ;) ... Oops, I hope i did not render my post pointless now! :P Thank you.
:)

I think this is a good point and that Buddy is basically exhibiting the same thought process that lara4unow was exhibiting. This is a thought process characterized by the idea that the moderator's posts must meet his expectations or approval - must be what he thinks they should be - rather narcissistic, actually, which is not unusual, yet it is rather unproductive.

 

[Buddy]

...saying something like "...or I could be completely wrong" is to me more like a written gesture of modesty and openness towards other opinions by allowing space for further discussion, rather than a sign of uncertainty or self-doubt which somehow contradicts and cancels what was previously said.

Point taken, and thank you for that view.

I hope I didn't convey the impression that the moderator was making an effort to cancel any meaning in the post, but rather, the reader should pause before reacting, as there is obviously no emotional investment in the particular description itself. Thanks for the feedback.

I think... Buddy is basically exhibiting the same thought process that lara4unow was exhibiting. This is a thought process characterized by the idea that the moderator's posts must meet his expectations or approval - must be what he thinks they should be...

Not at all. I am well aware of the narcissistic wounding technique of expecting others to fulfill one's expectations. I see that I may not have expressed my meaning very well. For that I apologize.

 

[anart]

Well, for clarity's sake, when I write that 'I might be completely wrong', or something along those lines ( including fwiw) I mean that literally. I've learned to not be identified with my current understanding since it has changed so drastically, so many times (and hopefully will continue to). My understanding is an open ended equation with variables dependent on my own development. Conclusions are reached from all currently available data, but that does not mean that I have a bird's eye view - not yet, at least... ;)

(the bird's eye view is currently more characteristic of the network, which is how I personally think it works at this level of reality...) Anyway, I digress...

 

[Buddy]

Well, for clarity's sake, when I write that 'I might be completely wrong', or something along those lines ( including fwiw) I mean that literally. I've learned to not be identified with my current understanding since it has changed so drastically, so many times (and hopefully will continue to). My understanding is an open ended equation with variables dependent on my own development. Conclusions are reached from all currently available data, but that does not mean that I have a bird's eye view - not yet, at least... ;)

(the bird's eye view is currently more characteristic of my network...)

Thank you for that clarification, anart. It probably shouldn't have been needed, but I find myself subject to mis-interpreting even the simplest things sometimes. My best defense is simply to remain open for correction, but I believe that I've always given the benefit of any doubt to those who are leading the way here. If this is found to be untrue then I will correct that as well.

Thanks again for the feedback. :)