Negative emotions on a global scale

[Alada]

Luke, it might help for you to go back and re-read your situation 1 scenario and place yourself in the position of your workmate, then place the forum in the position of you. I think this sums up pretty well what you expect of us here.

I agree, I think Luke would do well to let that image sink in and ponder it, rather than ignore / deflect it.

This thread seems to be vectoring away from the original topic somewhat.

 

[Jenn]

Do you know what she did? She started to cry...

Here I was, sat opposite her, thinking... "Our leader is crying... what's the plan to get this thing out the door when our leader is bloody crying?"

She then proceeds to hand the work to me and say... deal with it... I look at my team-mate and say, 'I guess we gotta figure this out'.. PS! We did between the 2 of us and had it out the door by the following Tuesday. That manager is probably one of the best I've ever had but that one situation was like out of this world... 'Our leader is crying... when we need her to be leading...' What the hell do you do then? You bloody do her job for her or nothing gets done!

I don't know but it seems like she was probably so stressed that she was overloaded, afaik crying is a release of stress hormones, it seems like you think people should be able to deal with situations like you can, when in actuality everyone has their own limitations, stress levels and ways of looking at problems, you may excel at work but as others pointed out seem to lack insight in regards to yourself, as we all do. So like Lainey and Alada &Beau suggested going back over those scenarios and analyzing why you find others annoying and applying it to yourself may give you an opportunity to see yourself clearer.

Ideally in a team everyone works together, I'm not saying you should be doing the work for that guy, but at my workplace if someone can't do something for whatever reason one of us steps in for the other, asking them to do another job instead. What I'm trying to say is that I think there's a difference between someone intentionally taking advantage of someones capabilities and someone not having the mental capacity to deal with the problem at hand, which is where each of us can step in and help each other out. On the other hand it may be what others have said and this guy is using you to do his work, but that's for you to work out I think.

I hope this isn't too off topic, I just wanted to give a different perspective to Luke

[quote author=Luke Wilson]but there is a time to complain and there is a time to act[/quote]
Does this apply to you too?

 

[Alada]

I hope this isn't too off topic, I just wanted to give a different perspective to Luke

No, for clarity the note about the thread moving away from the original topic wasn’t with a view that this shouldn’t be discussed or should be ignored. More to note that it had done so, so that we can hopefully get back on track afterwards. Maybe there’s even something in this small example that can be scaled up to the global level? Of how some people might deal with / experience negative emotions and what that might mean then on the global scale.

 

[luke wilson]

Cool, so this is a real life example of negative emotions in a practical setting and how it can influence you. Its hard to talk globally because of all the different situations that can arise. The global landscape is multifaceted with billions of people who will react in myriad of ways. Furthermore, what's usually projected by the mainstream media is different from the actual situation. So getting a proper handle on things globally is hard to say the least.

Sometimes all you can do is think locally and try to understand how certain macro dynamics might be playing out in your immediate environment. Anyways, at least this is the approach I take, to at least try to understand. Apologies if it's vectoring.

You made very good points Jennifer. Personally, for me, yeah I tend to do what instructed in real life situations in a team dynamic... I think its good when people help each other and build a good spirit between themselves. Nonetheless, this still doesn't stop some emotions from arising, mainly because emotions tend to have a life of their own. Afterwards maybe you can think, why did I feel that way in that situation.

 

[Michael B-C]

'Back on topic' so to speak. The formula Thesis, Anti-thesis, Synthesis seems a very useful guide to the importance of negative emotions. Thesis (being the source of all that is) creates antithesis (being the separation out into opposites of polarity) offering the potential for synthesis (being a level of new awareness, growth etc derived from the conscious experience of the tension between the two opposites) because by pulling apart the whole, looking eagle-eyed at it in opposition or implied tension, creates a possible third way - one deeper, richer and more known that the first as it contains development derived from the previous two states. We should thus give thanks and praise to negative emotions as being a vital tool for growth not try and run shy of them. It is our personalized subjectivity that is at fault (why do I suffer? Because you must first so as to learn that you don't!) Gurdjieff advised finding the most uncomfortable scenarios on a near permanent basis as a shock tactic which will force one into a state of anti-thesis and possible synthesis as a means to circumnavigate the forces at play designed to keep us 'asleep' and food for the Moon (living in a state of false negative/positive emotions).

The challenge comes in this time to not so much to see the negatives but not to be over powered by it. I think that's why people avoid seeing them - because they are apparently so strong down here at present. I admit to finding it extremely hard to hold onto the positive side of the equation. Its as if I don't trust it down here - that to be positive smells of a trap - but that maybe suggests a lack of real faith - faith that is activated into a real state of open being (not the trap of blind faith and wishful thinking) - faith that all is as it should be, that it is 'fun' to be at school and to learn, to welcome all as opportunities to grow for the greater good. That the struggle to learn is the point - the joy - the fun - the true positive emotion, the emotion of being truly conscious and struggling (most positive emotions seem to me nothing much more than chemical highs). To embrace anti-thesis as a tool to discovering our real positivity - that is acceptance of all, no matter how painful - seems a vital step of understanding. You just cant have one without the other.

The ancients had a great celestial image of this. The figure of Ophiuchus; a giant shamanic figure standing on the back of a Scorpion holding two snakes before him, and wrestling. Like someone from a circus, he is struggling for balance and self control against seeming impossible natural forces. The Scorpion (Scorpio) is the way of this material, deceptive, hungry, programmed life, with its two claws and two ways both leading to a potential sting in the tail. But he stands there still, wrestling with the two snakes - held out before his open eyes. It is an act of defiance against all likely failure. But he does it. It is the effort that counts not the result.

 

[luke wilson]

'Back on topic' so to speak. The formula Thesis, Anti-thesis, Synthesis seems a very useful guide to the importance of negative emotions. Thesis (being the source of all that is) creates antithesis (being the separation out into opposites of polarity) offering the potential for synthesis (being a level of new awareness, growth etc derived from the conscious experience of the tension between the two opposites) because by pulling apart the whole, looking eagle-eyed at it in opposition or implied tension, creates a possible third way - one deeper, richer and more known that the first as it contains development derived from the previous two states. We should thus give thanks and praise to negative emotions as being a vital tool for growth not try and run shy of them. It is our personalized subjectivity that is at fault (why do I suffer? Because you must first so as to learn that you don't!) Gurdjieff advised finding the most uncomfortable scenarios on a near permanent basis as a shock tactic which will force one into a state of anti-thesis and possible synthesis as a means to circumnavigate the forces at play designed to keep us 'asleep' and food for the Moon.

Interesting formula. It sounds a bit like what Dabrowski talks about in his theory of positive disintegration, based on my understanding thus far.

Thesis could be the state of primary integration.

Anti-thesis could be the state of positive disintergration (multi level).

Synthesis could be the state of secondary integration.

 

[RedFox]

Its hard to talk globally because of all the different situations that can arise. The global landscape is multifaceted with billions of people who will react in myriad of ways. Furthermore, what's usually projected by the mainstream media is different from the actual situation. So getting a proper handle on things globally is hard to say the least.

It can indeed be difficult to do. So maybe ask why is it difficult? Am I handy capping myself somehow?

[quote author=CNS]
Ok, so let me see if I'm understanding both of you (and the James Austen piece) correctly:

From the empirical neuroscience perspective, when one views an object :

Egocentric stream: tries to answer the question "where is it in relation to me"?
Allocentric stream: tries to answer the question "what is it" ?

Both these streams are unconscious and they merge and present the processed result which is available to the conscious mind.

From what I understand, the state of the art research methods available today are not capable of imaging the brain at speeds which can provide data about brain circuits involved in initiating more complex thoughts about the object and delineate the two processes.

Added:

There have been memory recall experiments correlating neural activation patterns. For old and very familiar memory recalls, brain circuits associated with the egocentric processing stream showed higher activation. It was as if more familiarity led to the object/location being treated as "mine" or "on my turf". Not so for memory recalls for newly learned events.
[/quote]

We all have a tendency to project and self-reference, to talk to and about ourselves even though we are 'talking to or about others', to think everything refers to us.
They are habitual frameworks we use daily, require little energy or thought, don't bump into unpleasant emotions - and don't allow us to see things clearly. Hence the 'seeing it globally' being difficult.
So maybe a first step out of the box is to step into someone elses shoes? The path then would be to do that all day every day.

Do you read sott? Do you read it like fiction or accounts of real people? Can you place yourself in the shoes of women and children fleeing war?

Some things that are pertinent to anyone who feels like this, and the topic at hand:

Session 10 May 2014

Q: (L) Okay, so the next question is: We have numerous activities that are creative for people to be able to release some of their pent up emotions about all of the things that are happening in the world that make everybody unhappy. They can get on SOTT, they can write commentary, they can work on the forum, they can write things on the forum, they can have exchanges, they can have meetings with other people. There are many things that people could be doing, but it's like the excuse always comes down to, "Oh, the frequency fence. I can't do anything because I'm depressed, or I'm this, or I'm that or the other thing." You're saying that they've won half the battle, but it seems to me that it's harder than that. There is something else. How to get over that initial resistance?

A: Taking the bull by the horns is always fearful in the imagination, but when you approach the beast, he usually lays down and submits.

Q: (L) That doesn't answer my question. Okay, what constitutes "approaching the beast"? Since that seems to be where everybody gets stuck...

A: As Yoda said, no try, just do, if only a little. That will break the logjam. Butterfly wings and all that.

Q: (L) Let me give a specific example. We have 108 editors on SOTT. We have 108 people who volunteered to work on SOTT. How many actually do? (Mr. Scott) Not very many. (Chu) 15 or 20? (Mr. Scott) I haven't checked lately, but probably about 15 or 20. But the people who post the most, it's usually like 3 or 4 people. (L) And the people who do the most are usually 3 or 4 people. And the same with some of the other languages. We have millions of readers, and this is a platform for people to actually be creative and say things and do things, and get messages across, and begin that creative process. But they can't do it because - and I know why - because it's so freaking depressing! I mean, you read the news, and you say, "Oh Geezus! Why don't I just go out and jump off a cliff because everything is so awful?!" I mean, I understand that...

A: See previous answer and do not underestimate the cumulative effect over time. All of you should just remember where you were five years ago, or ten years. The changes did not happen overnight now did they?

Q: (L) Can anybody think of another question to get me where I want to go here? (shellycheval) As individuals, what's the single most important thing we should do to Do, and to not try, but to actually take actions? What can we do to motivate ourselves as individuals? Is there something we can say or do...?

A: Service to others. Notice that the people with the most problems that always talk only about themselves and their troubles, are the ones who do and give the least. They do not have confidence in the universal law of LIFE: Get things moving and you create a vacuum in your life into which energy can flow.

Q: (L) So, basically what you're saying is that people should think of it as a kind of a law that when you... maybe like the old biblical expression: "Cast your bread on the waters, and after many days, it will return to you" sort of thing? Just do it, and keep doing it without anticipation?

A: Absolutely! And it is true and works. Just notice people who do and give a lot: Are they spending time focused on the self? No!

Q: (L) Yeah, but everybody's got wounds and issues and all that kind of thing to work on. I mean...

A: [letters come very quickly] Balance! A portion of a day can be spent on reflection, but not too much. This is the Wetiko Virus: obsession with the self and subjective personal issues. The next time you feel yourself slipping into despair, just tell others how you are feeling and think of something you can do for another to prevent them from suffering the same feelings. [letters come more slowly now:] Thus you will witness the birth of true empathy.

Session 26 July 2014

Q: (Manitoban) We've been teaching the EE class here for over three years, and we're just wondering if we've done any good? Not just for the participants, but have there been any nonlinear effects?

A: Indeed, and this is an interesting thing to contemplate: The necessity to work and continue to release energy into your realm so that it may accumulate, while not being attached to the visible outcome.

Q: (L) Well, that makes me think of a question to follow up on that. Something that's been on my mind is the difficulty so many group members have in getting themselves moving to do useful things, helpful things that help the network, help the group, help the Work, and to keep going. They sometimes get started, and then they peter out. Sometimes they try something too big, too much, too soon, too fast, and then they get discouraged. And I would like to know what is it about this group here that has made us able to put our noses to the grindstone for years and years... even under the most trying of circumstances. What is the quality that a person needs to be able to get - excuse me for saying this, but - to get their asses in gear, move, and keep moving? What is the needed quality?

A: Awakened conscience.

Q: (L) But how did we manage to get awakened consciences, and how can other people manage to do it, too?

A: Recall how you started, you acted on your own as the conscience of the world.

Q: (L) Well, what do you mean? How do you mean?

A: Recall why you began to try to see everything that was happening on your plane of existence.

Q: (L) You mean SOTT? My Signs of the Times?

A: Yes.

Q: (L) Well, the reason why was because I could see that other people were not remembering from one freakin' day to the next what happened! I mean, they needed to be reminded every day, day after day, what was happening.

A: And that is what developed your conscience. And those who helped were also in the process.

Q: (Andromeda) You have to constantly keep awake about what's happening.

(L) You have to get awake, you have to wake up, and you have to stay awake... all the time, about EVERYTHING. Any minute you allow yourself to sleep, you're putting your conscience to sleep. Dissociation is putting your conscience to sleep. Okay, that's all I wanted to ask about that. Go ahead.

(fabric) One thing we were worried about is in the event of a communications breakdown, would the board be able to be used to communicate with other groups? Like let's say the Château and the Tobacco House, to get a message across? Would that work if there was no power and no way of communicating with each other? Or would we just end up talking to dead dudes unless we grooved a channel?

A: Not likely and not advisable. We have mentioned before what is needed: Connect chakras by proper networking.

Q: (Perceval) Does that mean that essentially people who have their chakras connected by proper networking would essentially be inspired or moved to do what's needed to be done as a part of the network without necessarily having to be told?

A: And more. There will also be enhanced telepathic ability when the frequencies change. If you work on "receivership capability," all else will come naturally.

Q: (L) And how do you work on receivership capability?

A: Awakening conscience and tuning the centers as described by Mouravieff.

Q: (L) Alright. Next?

(dugdeep) Can they give elucidation about the mechanism behind homeopathy?

A: Frequency vibration resonance. Think of yourselves as "homeopathic medicaments" for the planet.

[NOTE: "medicaments" is French for "medicines"]

Q: (Perceval) That's a good description. Homeopathy on a macro scale, with some human beings as the tiny dose of the cure that might resonate with other beings.

(Pierre) So, individuals being on the truth vibration frequency could have a positive influence on the macro-organism that is Planet Earth.

(dugdeep) And why do they get more potent as you dilute them more?

A: Then the resonance spreads more widely in the solution bringing all into proper frequency within the integrity of the substance.

 

[luke wilson]

This referencing to ourselves, even when talking about others, does it not serve to add meaning? If I was to think about the person fleeing the war, without any aspect of myself, then don't I cut away the emotion... The person becomes an abstract figure, a mental construct even though they exist in real life. But if I reference myself, like, oh, I don't think that's a good situation to be in, because like me, that person in a human being. I might not know the exact details of their life, but I know, through self reference, that such a situation is indeed not pleasant at all! I can feel it emotionally. I can add personal meaning.

You can apply this self reference to decision making... E.g.if politicians self referenced in terms of how they would personally feel to experience what they subject others to, would they still make the same decisions? On the other hand, they can just see people as well, abstract concepts and the decisions they make as abstract things aimed at achieving abstract goals which result in the maintenance of their own position (status quo).

The concept of 'mirror neurons' come to mind. Ultimately, you can never occupy another persons mental space, it's impossible, you can only come up with an estimation/approximation based on your point of reference. The accuracy or innaccuracy of this approximation is based on how well you can put yourself in their situation (which from your pov is a notional position as it doesn't actually exist for you, it only exists for them). E.g. You are not a Syrian refugee, so you don't have the first hand experience of being a Syria refugee... You can only approximate what it would be like, what it would feel like. Osit.

This is my understanding of your post redfox. :) oh yeah, and that one should do things to act as a connective sort of conduit.

 

[luke wilson]

Oh deary me... You meant with the whole self referencing thing about someone thinking they are the center of the world/universe/everything in some sort of maniacal and egotistical way of being? Oh Jesus, I'm such a Dumbo... Clearly I took the wrong thing from your post redfox. I'll try and find myself in this maniacal and egotistical way of being you were pointing me to... :/ #confusedrightnow & feeling silly...

I was going to go into saying whenever I've spoken to you, you've endeavoured to explain things to me, challenges in life and lessons learnt through your own experience of life. Plus how despite us having different backgrounds, in your stories, you find themes that are similar and use the similarities to build a bridge between us (a bridge of communication, not someone talking at another person). But the thing is you approach it through self referencing... You estimate my position based on yours because obviously you aren't me and I'm not you but we communicate based on these concepts in action. Laura, in the wave series, she used the same strategy of communication... But yeah, got the wrong end of the stick to what I now think you were saying.

 

[petite femme]

Thanks to everyone, many fantastic and inspirational concepts in this post. I have myself, been drowning in negative emotions lately! This post, was really a shot in the arm! I resonated with many of the different ways to cope that were sited in this thread! I totally agree that negative emotions can be used as a catalyst of sorts, for change, for provoking thought and making decisions about yourself and who you are. It is hard sometimes to take that path, and not get caught up in the negative emotions. So much death and tragedy. But, to use the sadness as a catalyst to fuel learning and growth, for me, is the only way to keep on keeping on!
I always told my son, when we discussed all the injustice of the world, that we are each challenged to work to not allow ourselves to be hardened by it. To continually nurture our humanity in the face of such horrors was the only way we had to make a difference in this world. We all have that choice to make.
Thanks again to all who participated, even luke(chuckle).

 

[Nachtweide]

Gurdjieff said: If we free ourselves from the 48 laws, one falls under a new law, if you are not aware.
Fixed sleeping people, their comfort zone not want to leave out of fear, in my opinion, can not be exempted under because the fear immediately thought: Everything will be fine, I do not want to think about it - triggers. Realistic images are not to bear and to avoid those who hold up the mirror of reality as self-protection.
Less sleeping people come in anger, impatience and fear. They feel that something is wrong, but they are subject to anger, unable to do anything. In my environment, I see people who have become more critical, but not real. There is a daily redistribution of debt for existing conditions. You can feel that something is wrong, but you can sleep in a quasi a new law. Leading the way is always the amount of shock and adaptation. Here I see a lot of Pavlov. The shock has awakened but the energy was not enough to bring about a lasting change. I see more of the frog being cooked slowly the example. I believe that these people are even more negative for the awakening. They make those fear who want to sleep and continue to hide now. While they acknowledge the wrong laws but covered by ignorance and lack of reflection in the next Act in.
People group of awakening becomes larger. Drawback is that all the sleeping people diskreminieren this group because it makes them the most anxiety. The main problem will be that the awakening will be quiet again, as they are also defined socially. Here a big portion of courage to pursue his line.
Should we waste his energy to awaken sleeping people firmly under all circumstances? I do not think so. These people want and can not bear the reality. They perceive psychopathy and complain that you can not change it - or want to. The wishful thinking that at some point anyway things will get better or worse anyway everything is permanently burned. You need patience - waiting - drink tea. Here lack of courage.
I think that the shock effect fades relatively quickly. Terrifying for me is this indifference of the people who take things for granted what they would have angered decades ago. It requires a global, large-scale disaster that everyone feels. The hearing and sight of suffering or terror solves basically from nothing, because we were all like the frog boiled in a pot.

 

[Mike]

Thank you very much for this thread. It was just what I needed to read today after dealing with some dissociation and funk I've been experiencing related mostly to anger, fear and frustration associated with the recent push in the media and what looks to be the start of implementing the cashless society in the near future and the sad state of the world. My thoughts had been along the lines of if this is going to happen that what does anything matter to the point where I was gambling, starting to pursue dating sites and what not. Yesterday I was involved in a contentious discuss with my father about Trump and other related topics and the negative emotions I felt seemed to have shocked me out of this funk and I realized I've been sleepwalking for the past month or two, letting things I have little control over control me in a negative way, drifting away from the things discussed and highlighted on this forum and thread which I have valued for years and not taking any positive action to help others who might be seeking answers or need help. It helps to look at things in terms of you never know what the future might hold and what impact committed efforts of a group, even if small, might have toward the shaping of what unfolds ahead.

 

[Joe]

Thank you very much for this thread. It was just what I needed to read today after dealing with some dissociation and funk I've been experiencing related mostly to anger, fear and frustration associated with the recent push in the media and what looks to be the start of implementing the cashless society in the near future and the sad state of the world. My thoughts had been along the lines of if this is going to happen that what does anything matter to the point where I was gambling, starting to pursue dating sites and what not. Yesterday I was involved in a contentious discuss with my father about Trump and other related topics and the negative emotions I felt seemed to have shocked me out of this funk and I realized I've been sleepwalking for the past month or two, letting things I have little control over control me in a negative way, drifting away from the things discussed and highlighted on this forum and thread which I have valued for years and not taking any positive action to help others who might be seeking answers or need help. It helps to look at things in terms of you never know what the future might hold and what impact committed efforts of a group, even if small, might have toward the shaping of what unfolds ahead.

Sorry to hear you've been in a funk Bear, although it IS understandable given the state of the world. But, as you say, keeping an open mind about the future and acting as much as possible for a future we would like to see, without anticipation (that's the hard part) seems to be the way to go. I'm not saying it's easy, it's not, it can be a hard slog at times to face the world and just keeping on keeping on, but for that reason it's important to take a break, a breather, do something that distracts and entertains us for a while, to let the cares of the world fall away and take some time for ourselves, doing whatever it is that gives us a sense of calm and peace and, ideally, a broader and less burdened perspective on life and everything that comes with it.

 

[Rich]

So true. thanks Joe for the reminder!

 

[Mike]

Sorry to hear you've been in a funk Bear, although it IS understandable given the state of the world. But, as you say, keeping an open mind about the future and acting as much as possible for a future we would like to see, without anticipation (that's the hard part) seems to be the way to go. I'm not saying it's easy, it's not, it can be a hard slog at times to face the world and just keeping on keeping on, but for that reason it's important to take a break, a breather, do something that distracts and entertains us for a while, to let the cares of the world fall away and take some time for ourselves, doing whatever it is that gives us a sense of calm and peace and, ideally, a broader and less burdened perspective on life and everything that comes with it.

Thanks for your words Joe. :) I think one thing I will do which I have been meaning to do for some time is get out in nature and do some hiking once or twice a month as a break from it all.