Negative Emotions, Thoughts And How to Counteract Them

@Yas, pretty much from my understanding so far.

Deb Dana's take is that where it comes down to a battle between the nervous system and the brain when a survival state is either triggered or a person is stuck in that survival state (dorsal or sympathetic) through trauma, the nervous system will win every time. When you think about that, it seems to make sense because the purpose of the states is to promote survival. So if it comes down to a threat, either real or perceived, the survival state will just take over. She feels that CBT can maybe be helpful after there has been some capacity built to hold a ventral state, there can be some anchoring in ventral vagal to then use that to explore the other states with some sense of safety. Before that, top down approaches can have very little or limited impact and possibly feed a sense of failure or hopelessness.

So when looking at exercises, it comes down to a question of 'does the exercise help foster the emergent properties of a ventral vagal state?'
(open to possibilities, can co-regulate and self regulate, connected to self, others, the world and spirit, tune into the moment, reach out for and offer support, explore options, curiosity, wonder, awe, playfulness, hope, compassion and self compassion, flexible and resilient, resourced and resourceful, feel free and light, reciprocal)

The exercises can be different for different people and may depend on whether the prominent survival state is a dorsal vagal one or a sympathetic one and how they move through different states, whether there is already some ventral vagal anchor or not.

In any case, it kind of reminds me of Gurdjieff's 'keep it below the neck.' I'm thinking that maybe that meant that the thinking game or cognitive ability is probably going to be dodgy if in a sympathetic or dorsal vagal state.
 
@Jones yes! That's what I think about it too.

And relating it to some of Gurdjieff ideas, I think it has a lot to do with what he encouraged about "remembering ourselves" as in an awareness of different states and yes, learning to keep them below the neck can be thought of a being able to tolerate and see different states while staying anchored in "ventral".

Another thought that I had recently is that we can think of it as having different parts of ourselves running the show, as Gurdjieff would say, and that by engaging what some call the "ventral vagal" nervous system, which others call soothing system because it calms the threat responses, we can allow more space for the proverbial Butler of the house to wake up and start helping to organize the house, so that the Master can finally arrive. That in terms of Gudjieffian language which may be useful for some people. I guess the analogy would be something like the house is on fire and first we need to put out the fire so that everybody stops running around like crazy :lol: and then, after that, there's more energy and space for everybody in the house to work more effectively towards a common aim... something like that. :-)
 
Wandering Star said:
Realizing the "attack" while it is happening, while we are inside those bad thoughts, is incredibly difficult.
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So stop holding it that way! Stop thinking that’s the way it is: that it’s hard to recognize. (See how insidious it is?) If you or I are freaking out internally, it’s likely an attack. How hard is it to recognize that I am triggered internally? If you know yourself, it shouldn’t be all that hard. So all these positive affirmations are tricky.

How about “ I am able to recognize when I am triggered and can stand back from my re-activations and “see” in a way that allows me to remain neutral to my own inner circus so I can then make choices from a more self-aware conscious state (which theoretically will yield “better” results in my life). EZPZ!

The more these affirmative hopes are spelled out and defined, the more they reveal. There is a ton of negativity embedded in both our hardwiring and our software. I am not sure trying to lock it up in one of the rooms of the burning house is the way. But saying, hey, I can do this, even in the face of ‘this is damn difficult’, is a starting point.
 
Wandering Star said:
Realizing the "attack" while it is happening, while we are inside those bad thoughts, is incredibly difficult.
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It certainly feels like an attack, but one thing I've learnt is that the attack will become larger than life if we fear or resist it, if I understand you correctly @Wandering Star?

I felt myself sliding back into the pit these past few months, and these negative thoughts started popping up again on a more regular basis, but the physiological sigh helped this time giving me back a sense of control very quickly. So, if we can remember this so-called "kill switch" when we feel completely overwhelmed chances are that we can get out of it more quickly, at least that is what I have noticed a couple of times.

And as BHelmet said I tell myself I can do it and so on. That also helps.

At the same time I have been meditating almost every day plus I have been following Dick Sutphen's hypnosis programmes while learning new skills; basically getting out of my comfort zone which is part of cognitive behavioural therapy right! So, doing things differently than I usually do makes me realise that a) I can do it and b) that if I go in highly motivated and interested in the people around me people appreciate me for who I am and what I can offer them. And if I understand Andrew Huberman correctly (I only watched the first 45 minutes) my receiving and perceiving gratitude has positive effects on my mental and physical health. I have certainly started feeling better these past few days.
In this episode, I discuss the science of gratitude, which has been shown in peer-reviewed studies to have tremendous positive effects on mental and physical health. I explain, however, that most commonly used gratitude practices are ineffective (such as gratitude lists). The key elements of highly effective gratitude practices are described, including the essential need for story (narrative), receiving or perceiving gratitude rather than giving it, and the role that theory of mind plays in this context. I also discuss why we can't simply make up feelings of gratitude and how reluctance undermines the process. I also explain the neural circuit mechanisms that underlie the reductions in fear and increases in motivation and lowering of inflammatory chemicals that effective narrative-based gratitude can trigger. Throughout the episode, I use the science of gratitude to design a brief but highly effective protocol.
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What I find so interesting about all of this is that everyone is different and we all learn by trial and error. I think our path is very personal and I for one personalise my own journey according to my needs and wishes. My two cents.
 
Gwenllian said:
It certainly feels like an attack, but one thing I've learnt is that the attack will become larger than life if we fear or resist it, if I understand you correctly @Wandering Star?

I felt myself sliding back into the pit these past few months, and these negative thoughts started popping up again on a more regular basis, but the physiological sigh helped this time giving me back a sense of control very quickly. So, if we can remember this so-called "kill switch" when we feel completely overwhelmed chances are that we can get out of it more quickly, at least that is what I have noticed a couple of times.

And as BHelmet said I tell myself I can do it and so on. That also helps.

At the same time I have been meditating almost every day plus I have been following Dick Sutphen's hypnosis programmes while learning new skills; basically getting out of my comfort zone which is part of cognitive behavioural therapy right! So, doing things differently than I usually do makes me realise that a) I can do it and b) that if I go in highly motivated and interested in the people around me people appreciate me for who I am and what I can offer them. And if I understand Andrew Huberman correctly (I only watched the first 45 minutes) my receiving and perceiving gratitude has positive effects on my mental and physical health. I have certainly started feeling better these past few days.

What I find so interesting about all of this is that everyone is different and we all learn by trial and error. I think our path is very personal and I for one personalise my own journey according to my needs and wishes. My two cents.
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Maybe this is a clue:
 
Laura said:
Q: (L) Then, just let me ask it straight. Why have I been under such severe physical, material, and emotional attack in the past 6 months. Frank thinks that I am under such attack because I work and move too fast in the gathering and attempts at dissemination of information; that I charge ahead and do things, thereby exposing myself to retaliatory attacks.

A: That has the potential for being partially correct in the sense that you disseminate information, perhaps less carefully than you should. The gathering of information holds no potential for attack from any particular realm. However, dissemination DOES, because those whom become aware, become empowered. And, in any struggle between opposing forces, there is always danger in allowing anyone to become empowered without realization of the ramifications.

Q: (L) So, I can continue to seek information, as long as I keep it to myself?

A: You have free will to do that which you please. But, when you are framing it in terms of the question: where is the danger, this presupposes that you are concerned about dangers to yourself. And, if this be the case, we will be happy to give advice where and when needed.

Q: (L) Well, right now it is needed. I am almost completely debilitated physically and materially, which creates a severe barrier to focus and concentration, and also my ability to assist other people.

A: Well then, perhaps it is true that you should be careful as to how you disseminate the information and how you disseminate knowledge gained, and where, and when. This is not to say that you must stop, but rather to think carefully before you do it, as to what the ramifications will be. And then your instincts will lead you in the proper direction. The dangers are always that when one proceeds too quickly, the instincts may be overrun and become confused with other thought pattern energies, and thereby opening one up to attack and other unpleasant possibilities.

Q: (L) Well, if I promise not to tell, make a vow, can't we just stop all this other?

A: It is not necessary to stop, it is just to be careful as to how one does it. The flow of information is never a harmful thing. As we have previously described, the Service to Self involves the constriction and restriction of energies, and the focusing within. The Service to Others orientation involves an outward flow of energies, the focus being from within to without. Therefore, the passage of information, or dissemination is very helpful and is of Service to Others orientation. But, one must also be aware of the dangers involved. One must not lose control of the flow and the possibilities that can result. This is where you need to be more careful. You need to regulate. And, attack can come from any number of sources for any number of reasons. It is not always for the same reason. And, of course, there is the short wave and long wave cycle. The short wave cycle is one which closes rather quickly. The long wave cycle is one that closes more slowly, therefore take a longer amount of time, as you perceive it, to close. Therefore it also involves a more complicated issue. This is just one example as to how attack can be the result of what we were just describing.

Q: (L) Can attack be a left over from another cycle?

A: That is one possibility, certainly.

Q: (L) Can you give us any advice as to how to navigate our way out of such situations?

A: That is a VERY vague thought concept.

Q: (L) Well, Frank and I both seem to repeatedly face the financial flow issue, and it seems to be one of the primary modes of attack against us at this point. How can we overcome this?

A: Are you asking us how to make more money?

Q: (L) Yeah!

A: My dear Laura! You are already in position of literally thousands of possibilities to accomplish that end, are you not?

Q: (L) Everything takes money!

A: There goes that prejudice again. We have given much food for thought in that area to help you to learn, to contemplate, to meditate.

Q: (L) It is rather difficult to do that when one is worried.

A: That is interesting. You can't meditate or contemplate when you are worried about your next meal. I guess then that this means that no one on third density has ever been able to contemplate or meditate while worrying what was going to be eaten at the next meal. Hmmmmmm.

Q: (L) The point is that a constant state of worry, another crisis every day, the perpetual worry, eventually wears a person down to the point where one can no longer focus on any other issues.

A: Perhaps one can solve the crises by focusing on other issues? You see, when you constrict the flow, you constrict the channel. And when you constrict the channel, you close down possibilities. And, you make it difficult, if not impossible for you to see that which is there. In other words, the obvious becomes oblivious because of constriction of the flow. This is why we have recommended against all rituals, because ritual restricts the flow, thereby restricting the possibilities. And, what you are describing is a situation of "dire straits," as you call it, and financial pressures of great magnitude which is restricting you. But actually, it is your concentration on same that is restricting, not the situation itself. And we realize that it is difficult for you to focus your attentions, or, more importantly to open up the flow of the channel. But, it is certainly not impossible. Especially for an individual as strong as yourself. It is what you choose to do, not what you MUST do. It is what you CHOOSE to do.

Q: (L) So, you are saying that this situation is a result of my own constriction, rather than as a result of attack?

A: No, the situation can be a result of anything or any numbers of things. But, the sought after resolution to it may be impeded by your own choice to concentrate on the problem, rather than opening up the channels to seek the solution. We never suggested that you were solely responsible for creating your own financial situation, only that you may be partially responsible for preventing a resolution to the problem, that is all.

Q: (L) Is that also the case with Frank?

A: Of course.

Q: (L) Anything further on that subject? You say 'opening the channel...'

A: And not concentrating on the problem, but rather the solution by opening the flow. The answers come to you when you open the flow.

Q: (L) And what might that answer be?

A: That is for you to discover!
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Chu said:
Indeed! And not unusual, so we have to be picky, I think.
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Certainly!

His writing style, made me feel he was very focused on selling me something, and his job was to convince me of why I wanted to buy it, but his haste didn't work for me. I felt like I had to fill in a lot of the gaps, and when I did I found a lot of value on his ideas, but then I also found myself wondering, wait... this seems incomplete.

For example, he begins by saying that by the time we're adults, we have heard "No" several hundred thousands times on average, this generates in us a tendency to perceive ourselves and our abilities in the world as inabilities rather than posibilities. That is, we are more trained to identify our lack of ability, our impossibility than to see what is possible. Thus, changing our perspective into possibility has tremendous potential. Going from that almost exclusively negative interpretation of choices to a positive one sounds wonderful and interesting and worth exploring... I was on board.

But then I thought, well.. without denying the above, not every "no" we have heard from our parents and from life in general, has been negative, some of them were positive, protective, loving even. Specially when we were babies and for years on, I am sure we were told no thousands of times so that our lives would be saved. Also, in life, life itself sometimes gives us the feedback and this feedback is a very clear "no" but it is necessary, "no" isn't always negative, recognizing one's own limitations isn't negative either.

I agree that one perhaps shouldn't add an emotional component to this recognition, but one shouldn't force a positive spin on something that is negative and it's ok that it is negative. From his point, perhaps the affirmation would go something along the lines of "I am someone capable and self ware enough, confident and complete enough to recognize and accept my own limitations" but I would add, "without judging that negative response as evil somehow".

In fact, and I could be wrong, but approaching the rewiring of the brain as such is a form of "no" disguised as exclusively a "yes" if that makes sense. There's nothing wrong with this, I think it's positive, but he failed to mention it or maybe didn't want to in order to keep his message at a positive affirming level.

He gave me the sense that he was afraid or reluctant to consider that perhaps being told no is the right and most positive act one can experience, painful and limiting, illusion shattering and so on.

To summarize perhaps, the other day I was listening to a conference and the presenter talked about temper and character, he said that temper is inevitable and hereditary, and character is what one forms, a strong character is that one which keeps temper under control. Which doesn't mean to extinguish temper, but to make it conscious. That is, to know when to say yes to oneself, and when to say no to oneself.

Too much no, you become insecure, cold, rigid.. too much yes, and you become spoiled and obstinate. In that sense, what the author proposes is worth exploring, but it should be balanced out with the idea that receiving, or saying no to oneself, or receiving one from life, isn't a negative development, or a perpetuation of bad programs, or bad.

I hope the above made sense. Having said that, I am still curious about it and might even try it at some point
 
Alejo said:
But then I thought, well.. without denying the above, not every "no" we have heard from our parents and from life in general, has been negative, some of them were positive, protective, loving even. Specially when we were babies and for years on, I am sure we were told no thousands of times so that our lives would be saved. Also, in life, life itself sometimes gives us the feedback and this feedback is a very clear "no" but it is necessary, "no" isn't always negative, recognizing one's own limitations isn't negative either.
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Really good point Alejo! And one that I was thinking too as I read that part of the book, well, listened to, (as it’s free in audible for those with a sub)

I think, like you, that there are some valuable things to be learned here and I will continue with the book and will experiment with some positive self talk and also I have started reading aloud Renaissanc’s wonderful words from earlier in the thread after my daily prayers.

something else I found recently is a YouTube channel called therapy in a nutshell, which has resonated somewhat with me ..

in one of her videos she explained how we can distance ourselves from our thoughts, thank the brain for providing feedback and telling it that we are safe and don’t need to hear that right now, along with repeating the negative thought in a funny voice or even singing it to lesson it’s power. She has a lot of videos and I can’t remember which ones were which but I thought I would post in case anyone else can find value in them. For me it has helped, fwiw, and I think like others have said above that we are better off with a toolkit, doing what works for us at different times.
 
987baz said:
Here’s the video on cognitive diffusion I mentioned above

interestingly, she talks about the fact that we are not out thoughts, and that we can be, if we choose to be, the observer.
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That’s the idea

Paintings, thoughts, movies, pictures, fashion these are impressions that the being observes and then it has an impact on the emotional/intellectual centers…Hopefully the higher ones.
 
Menna said:
That’s the idea

Paintings, thoughts, movies, pictures, fashion these are impressions that the being observes and then it has an impact on the emotional/intellectual centers…Hopefully the higher ones.
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I’m not so sure it’s JUST a choice. I do believe it requires work, knowledge, trial/error, experience and all that to know how to be the observer. To me IMO saying it’s a choice is like flipping on a light switch. I’m not so sure it’s a decision like what am I going to eat for dinner tonight. Beings need to learn how to cook the meal IME
 
987baz said:
I think, like you, that there are some valuable things to be learned here and I will continue with the book and will experiment with some positive self talk and also I have started reading aloud Renaissanc’s wonderful words from earlier in the thread after my daily prayers.
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I think where I have landed is truth, when speaking to one's self, as probably the better practice, this truth is you're not a wonderful center of the universe, but you're not an insignificant spec of dust either. You're far more capable and stronger than you think, but you're also not omnipotent. You're worthy of love, affection, trust and so much more.. but also, you earn these things by your choices.

So, it's a mixture, a balanced approach based on truth, if you're honest with others, then why not being honest with yourself?
 
Alejo said:
In fact, and I could be wrong, but approaching the rewiring of the brain as such is a form of "no" disguised as exclusively a "yes" if that makes sense. There's nothing wrong with this, I think it's positive, but he failed to mention it or maybe didn't want to in order to keep his message at a positive affirming level.

He gave me the sense that he was afraid or reluctant to consider that perhaps being told no is the right and most positive act one can experience, painful and limiting, illusion shattering and so on.
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Consider the book was written for your average person who probably either 1) does not want, or 2) can't handle the additional nuance. He would probably have lost many people's interest. From the group's perspective, parts of his work are useful tools, but it's easy to see where he's off the mark. Most of his positive self-talk I find redundant if not for certain key phrases and messages that I sorely need to hear and are useful for my own growth as a human being. But I pretty much always expand on his ideas or edit his self-talk to incorporate my own knowledge and understanding to give it more depth and meaning to me. The rest, I leave at the doorstep as being a little too 'Stuart Smalley'.

I also couldn't help but wonder if someone who thinks a little too highly of themselves/highly narcissistic, and needs to improve their character would probably not benefit from positive self-talk if they are already using that kind of talk, when a good reality check would be more appropriate. Reminded me of a person Mark Manson wrote about in 'The Subtle Art...' of a guy who was always talking highly of himself and selling himself to everyone about how great he was (whether he truly believed it is another story) but everyone around him could see he was the exact opposite of what he professed to be and more of a leach.

But again, for the average person, I think telling themselves a more positive story, as long as it's not Polly-Anna positivity and realistic in its approach is generally a good thing. I introduced and started incorporating this positive self-talk at work, reaffirming certain messages and it can get to the point where some of us will purposely and knowingly give each other compliments and encouragement to the point of nausea, yet I've noticed a marked difference in the willingness to support and help each other out of their own free will. What they thought was ridiculous and laughable a few weeks ago is having a marked effect. I guess, like with anything, it's complicated and one size doesn't fit all.
 
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