No Longer Interested in Sex

Shijing said:
Odyssey said:
Shijing, since you mentioned Mercola's article, you may want to read this for a counterargument _http://www.reuniting.info/ejaculation_how_often_for_good_health.

Thanks a lot, Odyssey -- that was a really good article. It covers a lot of bases, and complements the links AI put up -- we're getting a small library put together on this topic :) Mercola had me wondering, and there probably is something to his info about detoxing the prostate, but this does counterbalance the take-away message regarding frequency (which is fine by me).

Yep, that's a good article. Thanks for posting! It reminds me of all the stuff Gurdjieff had to say about sex. Here are some things I've noticed from Beelzebub's Tales (which I've been listening to on my way to and from work, so it's still somewhat fresh in my mind):

"And thus, little by little, the psyche of your favorites, already shaky enough before this, has become so unhinged that in all of them without exception both their world outlook and the whole ordering of their daily existence rest and proceed exclusively on the basis of those two 'Greco-Roman inventions,' that is to say, on the basis of 'fantasizing' and of 'striving for sexual gratification. '
"It has been known since ancient times that, in general, the possibility of long existence for a three-brained being of your planet depends exclusively on the normal working of these two being-functions, that is, upon the state of their digestion and upon the functioning of their sex organs.
"And it is precisely these two functionings indispensable to their common presence which are now regressing in the direction of complete atrophy—and moreover, at a highly accelerated pace.
"At the present time, your favorites only know about the first being-food, and they know about that simply because, in the first place, willy-nilly, they cannot help knowing about it, and, secondly, their use of it has already become a vice for them, and occupies an equal place alongside the other weaknesses that have gradually been crystallized in them as consequences of the properties of the maleficent organ kundabuffer.

In short, people are addicted to food and sex, ignoring what should (and could) be the real functions of these. Interestingly, from the article quoted below: "Princeton researcher Bart Hoebel says, "Highly palatable foods and highly potent sexual stimuli are the only stimuli capable of activating the dopamine system with anywhere near the potency of addictive drugs.""

"And so these sacred cosmic substances formed in them either serve only for the purposes of the Most Great Cosmic Trogoautoegocrat, without any participation of their own being-consciousness and individual desire, or for the involuntary conception of a new being like themselves who is for them without their cognized wish a distressing result of the fusion of those sacred substances of the two opposite sexes, representing two opposite forces of the sacred Triamazikamno—a fusion taking place during the satisfaction of that function of theirs which, thanks to the 'inheritance' from the ancient Romans, has become the chief vice of contemporary three-brained beings.

In other words, our modern views and practices of sex are food for the moon.

Gurdjieff said:
"I repeat, my boy, not only have these favorites of yours, particularly the contemporary ones, ceased to make conscious use of these sacred substances, inevitably formed in them, for the coating and perfecting of their 'higher parts' and for the fulfillment of that being-duty foreseen by Nature which consists in the continuation of their species, but when this latter does accidentally occur, they regard it as a great misfortune for themselves, because its consequences must for a certain time hinder the free gratification of the many and various vices fixed in their essence.
"Yet this 'being-act,' which your favorites have turned into their chief vice, is considered everywhere in our Great Universe, by beings of all natures, as the most sacred of all divine sacraments.

"Even many two-brained and one-brained beings of the planet Earth, such as the beings called 'hyenas,' 'cats,' 'wolves,' 'lions,' 'tigers,' 'wild dogs,' 'baigooshis,' 'frogs,' and many others, who in their 'law-conformable presences' have no data at all for 'comparative logic,' still continue, of course only instinctively, to sense this act as sacred, and fulfill it only during those periods ordained by Great Nature for this holy sacrament, that is, chiefly during the period which is the beginning of a new cycle of that cosmic con­centration on which they arise and exist—the period called, by three-brained beings everywhere, the 'dianosks of the holy sacrament of the great Serooazar,' known on the planet which interests you as 'spring days.'

The impression I get from hearing those passages is that there are two kinds of sex: procreative and something else. Perhaps Marnia Robinson is onto something with her division of sex into "mating sex" and "bonding sex". I think perhaps there is something "spiritual" about bonding sex. After all, it looks like the Cathars (and various other esoteric groups) knew something about it and practiced it. But, when we're stuck in the "mating sex" program, it's little more than a vice made out of something that serves a practical purpose in our 3D world. Like food is necessary for keeping our 3D bodies alive and functioning, sex is necessary for the life of the species. But they easily turn into "vices". We use people for our own gratification. We eat and have sex simply because it feels good, then we get addicted, leading to the health problems we know about and the problems listed in the article above (not to mention getting into bad relationships and all that follows from that).

But, there are other options. We can choose to eat healthy food, and thus give our bodies all they need so that we can function properly on all levels. (And we can naturally enjoy it while we do so.) And we can choose to follow the natural rhythm of our bodies (e.g., following the wet-dream cycle for men) and enjoy sex that promotes bonding and all the psychological benefits that come with it.

As for losing sex drive, I found this article on the site mentioned: _http://www.reuniting.info/science/two_types_of_libido

Ever heard the familiar complaints: "All he wants is sex!" and "She's just not the hot babe I got together with!"? Well, they seem to be backed up by actual research. A new study shows that women tend to lose sexual interest in their mates, while men lose affectionate interest in theirs. Researchers found that after 4 years, less than half of the 30-year-old women polled wanted regular sex. Men's desire to engage in tenderness for its own sake fell off just as quickly.

...

There's enough research on the effects of sex on the brain (via neurochemicals) to support a more illuminating hypothesis to explain these findings. In fact, it saddens us that researchers fail to consider a possible neurochemical explanation, for reasons we will explain in a moment.

Unpopular as the notion may be, there is growing evidence that the effects of sex on the brain are in some ways similar to the effects of recreational drugs. That is, orgasm is the high phase of a cycle that also has a low phase. During the low phase, lovers' neurochemistry is profoundly different than during the orgasm phase. It changes the way they see each other for the worse.

...

Unfortunately, by not addressing our inherent passion cycle, we humans do three things:

* We perpetuate the belief that the only normal sex is sex that keeps lovers locked in a deteriorating cycle of highs and lows.
* When the lows overtake us, this blindspot leaves us vulnerable to the clumsy, and possibly dangerous, sexual enhancement drugs marketed (and soon to be marketed) by the pharmaceutical companies.
* By indirectly targeting the wrong problem for correction, we discourage ourselves from investigating the various lovemaking traditions that would protect our lovemaking from this addictive cycle, and strengthen our emotional bonds.

...

The results of the study mentioned earlier suggest that the genders tend to react to the underlying cycle in characteristic ways - men by withdrawing emotionally, women by withdrawing sexually. In fact, however, everyone reacts differently to this drop off of dopamine. Apathy, irritability, mood swings, a sense of depletion, emotional neediness, emotional numbness, and an urge to pursue addictive behaviors or substances, are common responses to the post-passion withdrawal phase in both sexes.

In other words, post-passion neurochemical strategies are not strictly gender-specific. It is not always men who want more sex, or women who want more non-goal-oriented affection. In relationships where the woman's libido is higher than her mate's, he often loses interest in sex - and the woman is equally disinclined to be generous with unconditional affection (i.e., affection without orgasm as her goal).

...

We humans tend to believe that an intense urge to have sex is proof of a "mighty libido," but it may turn out that in today's porn-saturated, pro-orgasm culture, it is more often simply proof of "intense withdrawal discomfort" caused by low dopamine following sexual satiation (over-stimulation of the reward circuit of the brain). In effect, a burning desire to make love is not evidence that the withdrawal (or low dopamine) phase has passed; it may instead signal its nadir.

As explained, a male-model lover in the "ebb" portion of the passion cycle is desperate to get his dopamine up - something passion can easily achieve. Not only that, orgasm will usually temporarily bump up his oxytocin.11 So his strategy for returning to feeling "in love" is to strive for orgasm with his partner. Briefly, his strategy succeeds.

Unfortunately, however, when his dopamine plummets shortly afterward, his emotional bond also weakens again. This leaves the post-passion lover in a particularly uncomfortable bind: emotionally distant (because the dopamine, or desire, element of the bonding mechanism is largely absent) and (very soon) sexually-frustrated. One possible outcome is a pattern of cold behavior, completely lacking in affection, punctuated by brief periods of lust (excruciatingly portrayed by Leo Tolstoy in The Kreutzer Sonata).12

...

The tragedy is that the harder an uncomfortable male pursues relief, the more he may drive an emotional wedge between himself and his "frigid" lover - and the less inclined she may be to offer the nourishing comfort of sexual intercourse in the future.

...

The female response to withdrawal discomfort generally leads to a different overall strategy. It may be heavily influenced by oxytocin, perhaps because a woman naturally produces more oxytocin than a man. As with dopamine, oxytocin has lots of benefits when at balanced levels. Research reveals that oxytocin tends to calm, speed healing, increase sexual receptivity, and counter the effects of cortisol (stress), cravings, and depression. Oxytocin is also linked to emotional bonds. Indeed, we could not fall in love without it.

However, as with dopamine, excessive oxytocin (or oxytocin binding to the "wrong" receptors) can have quite different effects. Recent research shows that relationship distress is actually associated with higher oxytocin (possibly due to high prolactin) — but does not counter a woman's stress response.17 In other words, her high oxytocin doesn't help her cope when she perceives disharmony in her relationship (a common perception during with withdrawal phase of the passion cycle). Indeed, high oxytocin may exacerbate her insistence upon a closer union (making her clingy, demanding, or irrationally jealous).18 She may also seek relief through processing her relationship woes with friends, shopping, eating chocolate ice cream, and so forth.

...

All of this means that, during withdrawal, just as a man perceives his first order of business to be raising his dopamine with passion, a woman perceives her first order of business to be resolving the relationship disharmony that is associated with her elevated oxytocin (and prolactin?). Her exaggerated behavior not infrequently drives her partner away…indirectly causing her to fulfill evolution's command to end her relationship and move on.

The media's assurance that a happy sex life is one that conforms to the addictive passion cycle has unwelcome implications for women as well. Researchers tend to pathologize a woman's natural lack of response to a lover suffering from withdrawal (especially during her own withdrawal). Pharmaceutical companies are already seeking approval for drugs that would artificially elevate her dopamine with sexual enhancement drugs. These could very likely have risky side effects.

In truth, her libido is most likely dormant, not ill (as those who opt for affairs will attest.19) More significantly, such drugs cannot duplicate the subtle, complex neurochemical dance required to keep partners "in love." At best they can inflame the addictiveness of sex, and, sadly, the severity of the withdrawal phase itself - creating even more emotional friction.

...

Alas, evolution has shaped both men and women to slide from feeling "in love" toward feeling disillusioned. Selfishness and defensiveness replace mutual consideration as the basis of the relationship. This may explain the brevity of the "honeymoon" period during most relationships. One study found that the glow generally begins to fade in the second year of marriage.20

In this way intimate relationships tend to become hostile or flat over time - and yet surprisingly rapidly. We say "surprisingly" because friendships and relationships with pets and children don't suffer such rapid, radical deterioration.

Then she talks about possible solutions.
 
Thanks for posting this and the other articles Approaching Infinity.

However I find the authors evolution reasoning quite weak. One reason is because she does not address childhood trauma into the picture. A possibility is that people are becoming avoidant once they feel they are intimate. Or simply the amount of unresolved issues between the couple tend to increase over time.

Adults dont usually have hard feelings for children and pets, maybe because they see themselves in the up position in the relationship? And, correct me if Im wrong, but people take more to heart ( take offense ) things that adults say, rather than children.
As for friendships, the geographical distance ( each friend may live in its own house ), the emotional distance ( not every friendship is really close ) and temperament ( some people are more high conflict other less ), may contribute for lack of hard feelings in both parties, therefore making the relationship longer.

Another consideration is that people usually project all sorts of things in their partner, trying to make him/her perfect. How can we be sure that the changed chemistry is not due to changed minds due to disapointments or other factors?

Another consideration is the abillity to give yourself, and be able to feel vulnerable during orgasm, and to receive without guilt.
Many if not all to some extent are problematic in at least one of these three areas. I wonder if the results would be the same measuring the biochemistry of a couple who have no, or less problems in those areas compared to most people?

Edit: However, I found extremely interesting the hormonal regulation aspect of the issue. I just dont think it is that way in humans of all levels of development.
 
RyanX said:
But I think it is also important to consider that continuing to play this game (i.e. withholding sex), is just another part of the feeding game when you're in a relationship. If the relationship has devolved to that point, the externally considerate thing to do would probably be to end it instead of stringing the other partner along and withholding sex from them. This is how some cases of marital rape transpire, from what I've read. I don't think these situations are good for anybody, so it is probably best to call off the relationship before sex becomes just another weapon in the game.

I see your point, RyanX, and thanks for another perspective. I've thought about it and I think in my case it wasn't part of the feeding game. My point actually was, and sorry that I didn't make myself clearer, that a vanishing libido can be a hint that something about the relationship is off (which was the case in my situation). So if this comes up, it would be beneficial to look real close and find out what is wrong. Either you can fix it or you can't, depending on the type of relationship one has. (e.g. a feeding frenzy vs. a mature relationship, where both partners work on themselves and on the relationship in an aware and earnest effort)
 
Thank you all for some very interesting points of view, the various quotes, and the links. I am still reading them. Will need time to reflect on everything.

To answer a few questions:

Diet - I am afraid I am not doing so well in my struggle against dairy and wheat, I can be so stubborn! Also, I have long been aware of a deprivation program (result of my first year of life - long story) which kicks in whenever I try to go "cold turkey". I end up binging. The strategy that has worked best for me is to slowly decrease whatever I am trying to give up. Like sugar, I have gotten it down pretty far over time. So this is an ongoing process for me.

EE breathing/meditation - I have only been doing it occasionally. Often, I think of it when busy with something else and forget later. Will be putting up reminders around the house. Yesterday I did one right away after reading SAO's question. I had the time and decided to do it before I forgot. I actually felt better the rest of the day!

Talking things over with husband - YES! We have been talking openly of this issue. It is one of the things I love so much about him and our relationship. We can truly talk to each other. I will also be showing him some of the links and comments for further discussion. I found the articles on the two types of sex very interesting. Reminds me of a book I read many years ago that incorporated some of the same ideas...I think I may still have that book around...Hmmm. This may be a path that is interesting/acceptable to both of us.

Again, my thanks to everyone! You guys are great.
 
Approaching Infinity said:
The impression I get from hearing those passages is that there are two kinds of sex: procreative and something else. Perhaps Marnia Robinson is onto something with her division of sex into "mating sex" and "bonding sex". I think perhaps there is something "spiritual" about bonding sex. After all, it looks like the Cathars (and various other esoteric groups) knew something about it and practiced it. But, when we're stuck in the "mating sex" program, it's little more than a vice made out of something that serves a practical purpose in our 3D world. Like food is necessary for keeping our 3D bodies alive and functioning, sex is necessary for the life of the species. But they easily turn into "vices". We use people for our own gratification. We eat and have sex simply because it feels good, then we get addicted, leading to the health problems we know about and the problems listed in the article above (not to mention getting into bad relationships and all that follows from that).

I read the Gurdjieff quotes differently, AI. It is my impression there are three kinds of sex: procreative, sacred sex, and vice. Procreative sex is the mating urge of the instinctive-motor centre and entirely natural in men and women of procreative age. Sacred sex is sexual union to coat or grow a higher being body. I take this to mean that sexual union can stimulate neural and limbic activation and connection of the three brains, in particular the activation and connection of feeling centre function of "the benevolent inner impulse" with the instinctive-motor and abstracting capacity in order to facilitate the seating of the higher centres. This may be part of functioning as a polar couple.

I think vice is easy to understand. It is using sex for physical pleasure and/or for ego satisfaction. Most sexual activity of my earlier life was instinctive-motor physical satisfaction and self-image maintenance.

As I have established an aim and purpose for my existence, other than self-image and instinctive-motor satisfactions, I have found myself much less interested in sex. Occasionally in the presence of fertile women I will experience the old mating urge, but my natural duty of mating and raising children is finished. I have another aim.

I am interested in the possibility that sexual union can be used to accelerate connecting and balancing of the instinctive-motor, the feeling, and the thinking centres, as the prelude to seating the higher emotional and intellectual centre.

Are the sexual symbolism of Hindu temples and the archetype of sex with a priest or priestess a remnant of the practice of sacred sex? Perhaps others are more informed on this possibility. For me, this thread has raised some interesting new possibilities for sexual union. I want to conclude with a few words from the Tales on the importance of connection and activation of the feeling centre to becoming a Real Man.

Gurdjieff…Beelzebub’s Tales said:
“And these various forms of mutual relationship among them were formed of themselves after the being-property of sensing the inner feeling of similar beings in relation to oneself had become quite atrophied in their psyche, which property must infallibly exist in all beings of our Great Universe without distinction of form or place of arising.

“At the present time among them, good or bad mutual relationships are established exclusively only according to outer calculated manifestations, chiefly according to what they call ‘amiability,’ that is empty words in which there is not a single atom of what is called ‘the result of an inner benevolent impulse,’ such as arises in general in the presences of all beings in direct contact with ‘those similar to themselves.’

So, the “bonding” of sacred sex can be used to activate the “being property of sensing the inner feeling of similar beings in relation…”, or so I think from reading this thread and pondering my own experience in this light. The world unfolds, before us!
 
Iron said:
Thanks for posting this and the other articles Approaching Infinity.

However I find the authors evolution reasoning quite weak. One reason is because she does not address childhood trauma into the picture. A possibility is that people are becoming avoidant once they feel they are intimate. Or simply the amount of unresolved issues between the couple tend to increase over time.

Adults dont usually have hard feelings for children and pets, maybe because they see themselves in the up position in the relationship? And, correct me if Im wrong, but people take more to heart ( take offense ) things that adults say, rather than children.
As for friendships, the geographical distance ( each friend may live in its own house ), the emotional distance ( not every friendship is really close ) and temperament ( some people are more high conflict other less ), may contribute for lack of hard feelings in both parties, therefore making the relationship longer.

Another consideration is that people usually project all sorts of things in their partner, trying to make him/her perfect. How can we be sure that the changed chemistry is not due to changed minds due to disapointments or other factors?

Another consideration is the abillity to give yourself, and be able to feel vulnerable during orgasm, and to receive without guilt.
Many if not all to some extent are problematic in at least one of these three areas. I wonder if the results would be the same measuring the biochemistry of a couple who have no, or less problems in those areas compared to most people?

Yep. All good points, Iron. She definitely doesn't have the whole picture about relationships. She also seems to think that the "mating program" is what causes people to think they're not right for each other, but not that the mating program can cause two people who are not right for each other to get together in the first place.

go2 said:
I read the Gurdjieff quotes differently, AI. It is my impression there are three kinds of sex: procreative, sacred sex, and vice. Procreative sex is the mating urge of the instinctive-motor centre and entirely natural in men and women of procreative age. Sacred sex is sexual union to coat or grow a higher being body. I take this to mean that sexual union can stimulate neural and limbic activation and connection of the three brains, in particular the activation and connection of feeling centre function of "the benevolent inner impulse" with the instinctive-motor and abstracting capacity in order to facilitate the seating of the higher centres. This may be part of functioning as a polar couple.

Yep, that makes more sense, go2!
 
Wow, this thread approached this complex activity from a lot of different angles. Reading some of the links provided I found useful food for thought.
Thanks!
 
Only thing i could tell about this topic is that once you realize a few things about life.You could lose some interest in sex because you know what's really important and you know sex is just a way to get pleasure... doesn't last too long and it usually doesn't improve your life.

Sex can help make your life better but people who engage in that activity a lot start to forget their true identity by entering in a cycle that lasts for even and doesn't help to people's spiritual growth.

Spiritual growth makes you feel more complete and the more you discover the more you want to keep searching. That's why people and this world is made for.Having fun is a good thing but only mental activity can give us a true feeling of fulfillment
 
Great thread!

If I had known these things years ago, I would have been able to identify when sex turned out to be vice-like in a past relationship. My sex drive would drop at the change of attitude of sex between us, but to be considerate, I would still do it. Afterwards, I would feel that crash of dopamine mentioned.

Instead, I should've verbalized my dislike of the flavor of the energy that drove us to have sex. Who knows, she might have thought that I enjoyed it because I kept quiet- scared to hurt her feelings by talking about it. This must be more common with women, as in general it seems men have more of a sex drive. I think societal programming plays a bigger part in this than the hormonal aspect.
 
Divide By Zero said:
Great thread!

If I had known these things years ago, I would have been able to identify when sex turned out to be vice-like in a past relationship. My sex drive would drop at the change of attitude of sex between us, but to be considerate, I would still do it. Afterwards, I would feel that crash of dopamine mentioned.

Instead, I should've verbalized my dislike of the flavor of the energy that drove us to have sex. Who knows, she might have thought that I enjoyed it because I kept quiet- scared to hurt her feelings by talking about it. This must be more common with women, as in general it seems men have more of a sex drive. I think societal programming plays a bigger part in this than the hormonal aspect.

This is exactly why I think that the hormonal response is the end point of a series of events. Because the roles can be reversed.
And maybe its just in my experience, but it seems that one takes the role with more sex drive, and another less, with the respective hormonal responses maybe. Like a dance. Or a archetypal thing.
 
Iron said:
This is exactly why I think that the hormonal response is the end point of a series of events. Because the roles can be reversed.
And maybe its just in my experience, but it seems that one takes the role with more sex drive, and another less, with the respective hormonal responses maybe. Like a dance. Or a archetypal thing.

Yeah, I think its archetypal to have roles like that. People seem to want to be controlled or be controlled in relationships. A relationship that has no defined "ruler ship" must be quite confusing to many because it requires both people to be comfortable in their own skin (healthy narcissism). What a fine line we must walk when under the influence of hormones!
 
I have checked something: while I'm doing EE consistently over time my sexual drive downs a lot. I had interrupt the program at times for several reason and I noted that my sexual drive rose again, then I can say is a EE efect. I liked in part because normally my mind was bombarded of sexual images that I knew didn't come for me, but the other part is that slowly in average, my sexual drive is fading and I don't know if I am getting ahead but I feel that will arrive the time when I don't need it anymore and probably this affect my loving relationship, but When that times comes I will do what I have to do. Any of you have experienced this?
 
Galaxia2002 said:
I have checked something: while I'm doing EE consistently over time my sexual drive downs a lot. I had interrupt the program at times for several reason and I noted that my sexual drive rose again, then I can say is a EE efect. I liked in part because normally my mind was bombarded of sexual images that I knew didn't come for me, but the other part is that slowly in average, my sexual drive is fading and I don't know if I am getting ahead but I feel that will arrive the time when I don't need it anymore and probably this affect my loving relationship, but When that times comes I will do what I have to do. Any of you have experienced this?

I've actually noticed the opposite effect -- in general, my sex drive is low, but doing E/E will occasionally cause it to bump up, although this happens sporadically. The whole topic is complex, and it would be interesting to see how different people are affected -- sex drive can be affected by so many things, physiological, psychological, and emotional, and E/E most likely affects everyone differently based on their personal history in terms of all of these factors. I think that in my case I experience what I do because there is some dormancy that is being chipped away at, but that's just a hunch -- it sounds like you are having your own unique experience for reasons I couldn't guess. It's a very interesting observation, though, and see what happens over time.
 
It is normal to be interested when you are young??????

like 18

I know about the fall that is not precissely about sex and all, and I know litttle of this and more and that we have to work on ourselves, but I have kind of necessity to that. You know, maybe is because of the people I meet, guys that see the women just like an "ass" to taste (forgive my way to say it), and kinda gets to you but I don't like it, sometimes changes my way to think, I say to me when I began to think a little in that way "what are you doing?"
 
Hi cubbex --

cubbex said:
It is normal to be interested when you are young??????

Yes.

cubbex said:

More yes.

cubbex said:
You know, maybe is because of the people I meet, guys that see the women just like an "ass" to taste (forgive my way to say it),

Try saying it in a different way -- you can come up with something better that will still get the point across.

cubbex said:
and kinda gets to you but I don't like it, sometimes changes my way to think, I say to me when I began to think a little in that way "what are you doing?"

I think that you are right to be disturbed by that kind of attitude -- Laura has mentioned that as men, our view of women has been very much ponerized by our environment, and your reaction to this behavior is an appropriate one. It's a matter of respect -- you don't have to throw your sexuality out the window in order to have a healthy attitude towards women, but it's crucial that you see them as people to relate to, and not as objects for self-gratification (which is what you are describing others as doing). I think a good rule to follow is to ask yourself, "is that how I would want my mother/sister/daughter to be treated?"
 
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