Organic Portals: Human variation

I wonder why they are failed-OP's as well, I don't know that a definition of psychopath is so much required as it seems to be an evolving concept here - and everywhere for that matter, but a simple description of why they are failed OP's might help a bit more because that seems a more direct manner to approach this from. At least it would be helpful to me - I can't possible describe how much my concept of a psychopath has changed since I started reading the material here, but if I understood why they are considered failed OP's it might accelerate what concepts to tie into an overall psychopathic profile - kind of like a root quality which all psychopathic traits can be derived from ...
 
hkoehli said:
A few thoughts:

I think it is important to know what Laura's understanding of "psychopaths" was when the C's said that they were failed OP's. That is, what definition were they using for "psychopath"? For example, there are anti-social psychopaths who are extremely violent from a young age. They are easily spotted, and it is obvious that they lack even simple conscience (i.e. the emotional center). Were these violent types what the C's meant by "psychopath",
I think, and I could possibly be wrong, that this is what Laura had in mind and this is why the C's stated that the one's you have identified as psychopaths are failed OPs, or say, failed masks that can not convincingly emulate empathy into an act of sympathy disguised to the "victims", or say the students of this 3D STS Realm working to learn to "see the unseen", as both having the ability to first empathize and thus understand emotionally the feelings of another based on the situation, and then to act in a sympathetic or say compassionate manner depending on what is called for in the situation at hand. In other words, you can say that they are the malfunctioned "tools" that have been forced into the service of 4D STS unconsciously, which can no longer be used to discretely initiate the indirect attacks of 4D STS from above to below since they have a malfunctioning lower emotional center that was perhaps either damaged by severe trauma through either childhood or adulthood, or perhaps was by default that way due to genes, or perhaps birth defects that might had come to be due to environmental reason while the infant was still unborn and within the mother, or so I think.

hkoehli said:
or were they including more psychopathic types? The more intelligent psychopaths use their 'mask of sanity' to appear normal, and are thus not as easily spotted. (An intesting side note, in the movie American Psycho, the main character says "I feel like my mask of sanity is slipping.")
I don't know, and so, maybe Laura can please help with a clarification of what she was thinking in terms of the definition of a psychopath when she asked the C's questions in regards to the concept.

Now, here are some further thoughts to add to this discussion: I don't think that OPs that don't have malfunctioning lower emotional center are psychopaths, BUT since they are "portals" without the higher centers that don't have the potential in this current Grand Cycle to learn to "see the unseen" through the application of Knowledge and thus to attaining of the Free Will choice to say no to 4D STS manipulations of the lower centers from above, they can be used by 4D STS to attack and drain "potentially fully souled" individuals below through psychopathic types of attacks that are NOT due to the OPs themselves, but to what is working THROUGH them, which is souled 4D STS Beings, or what you have termed as "entropathic". So the root of the attacks is not the soul imprinted OPs, but the 4D STS souls that [] are working through them with extreme STS "entropathic" tendencies that are so "heartless" at times that they are very similar to the psychopathic tendencies of a failed OP or psychopath below, or so I think. Hence, I would think that the main character of American Psycho from your example above would perhaps be an individual working consciously to be a 4D STS candidate rather then a psychopath or failed OP who was unconsciously being used by 4D STS since he was AWARE of this mask of sanity, and failed OPs or OPs are not, or so I think; however, I have not seen the movie and so I may be making an incorrect assumption based [] on [just] this one quote from the main character...

hkoehli said:
Martha Stout devotes a lot of words to 'conscience' in her book, The Sociopath Next Door. From what I grok of the ideas she presents, also keeping in mind Mouravieff, psychopaths lack an emotional center, and thus the ability to form any emotional attachment. Without this, conscience is impossible (they cannot 'feel' for others in any circumstance).
I don't think, and I may be wrong, that emotional attachments are related to having a conscience or not. I think conscience in general, and not 'conscience' in the way that you have used single quotes to portray, and so if you could please clarify what you mean by stating 'conscience' rather then conscience, is rooted in the higher emotional center and has nothing to do with various dogmatic moral systems or rigid rule books, but rather, what is essential to the STO "emotional pathway" which depends on what is the right thing do in a situation to be in accord to one's intrinsic nature, or so I think. Therefore, I think a psychopath can have an emotional attachment but in a twisted way as for i.e. seeing love as having absolute control over another, and so, since it is [a] "tool" [that] is [being] physiologically and psychologically [] controlled through duel techonoligcal[] and psychical[] merg[ing] [] manipulations [of] 4D STS in order for 4D STS to feed, they could chemically [have] imprinted emotional attachments that are in accord to the 4D STS "emotional pathway", or so I think.

hkoehli said:
The OP, possessing an emotional center, is capable of this attachment. However, it is not Conscience, as Gurdjieff would call it. It is subjective, and can be mis-used. Non-OPs have higher centers, thus "soul qualities." What are these soul qualities? It would seem that they include the ability for true objective empathy, or Conscience. However, I'm still not sure the exact qualities that non-OPs project on OPs.
I think true "soul qualities" of a soul in accord with the STO "emotional pathway" within a 3D STS Being have to do with "tuning the reading instrument" to the ability of first empathizing and thus intellectually and emotionally understanding another individual's dilemma, pain, or crisis, and then to act sympathetically or say compassionately without any judgmental pity but rather an intellectual assessment of what would be the relevant thing to do in the context of the situation what would be in accord and thus resonate with [the] soul's STO "emotional pathway".

Moreover, I think it is not the case of "potentially fully souled" individuals wishfully projecting "soul qualities" to OPs in all cases, but rather, OPs "stealing that energy from souled beings" because of their natural function of being "originally part of the bridge between 2nd density and 3rd density" in order for their soul pools to learn and "grow" into an individuated "soul unit" with the higher centers in the next Grand Cycle, or so I think. So I think -- as I mentioned the same notions in the working to Nathan recently -- that OPs don't actually have empathy but they rather emulate what can be superficially percieved to be as empathy by acting sympathetically without the actual Understanding derived through first being able to "tune in" and empathize the context of the situation, and second[,] to then sympathize in accordance to this empathic understanding and make the choice [to] act on what would be the right thing to do "tune" the 3D STS Being to [] accordance [with] the souls STO "emotional pathway"; furthermore, as stated before, I currently think [that] the key in discerning this is to see if what they do and say in the aftermath of the attacks over a long period of linear time is relevant to the heart of the matter or not, and if not, then perhaps these are synthetic "soul qualities" that are being emulated to keep one blinkered from the manipulations of 4D STS working through them.

Anyways, just some thoughts I am mulling over. I will stop now as my eyes are very tired from staring at this monitor for so long while thinking, writing, correcting, and so on.
 
Saman said:
In other words, you can say that [psychopaths] are the malfunctioned "tools" that have been forced into the service of 4D STS unconsciously, which can no longer be used to discretely initiate the indirect attacks of 4D STS [...] since they have a malfunctioning lower emotional center [...].
Now, here are some further thoughts to add to this discussion: I don't think that OPs that don't have malfunctioning lower emotional center are psychopaths,
This confused me for a minute. All those negatives (don't, don't, mal-) were a brain workout! I think it would have been more clear to say, "I think that OPs that have a functioning lower emotional center are not psychopathic." ;) I hadn't noticed it until Craig pointed it out, but your sentences are very long, and convoluted, Saman. For example, the sentence which follows what I just quoted is 126 words long. They're a struggle to get through.

So the root of the attacks is not the soul imprinted OPs, but the 4D STS souls that are working through them with extreme STS "entropathic" tendencies that are so "heartless" at times that they are very similar to the psychopathic tendencies of a failed OP or psychopath below, or so I think.
This is interesting, because Ra describes those on the STS path as 'skipping' the 4th chakra (the heart chakra, or higher emotional center), and only utilizing a weak connection to the 5th center (higher intellectual) solely for contacting 'intelligent infinity.' So, it seems they consciously suppress conscience. They appear to be psychopathic, but have really suppressed their own conscience.

Hence, I would think that the main character of American Psycho from your example above would perhaps be an individual working consciously to be a 4D STS candidate rather then a psychopath or failed OP who was unconsciously being used by 4D STS since he was AWARE of this mask of sanity, and failed OPs or OPs are not, or so I think; however, I have not seen the movie and so I may be making an incorrect assumption based on just this one quote from the main character...
I think this is possible, and considered it when watching the movie. However, I think psychopaths are aware that they are different. At least some seem to consciously act out their mask. They see normal people as weak and irrational. They may not understand the emotions the are acting, but they're aware it's an act.

I don't think, and I may be wrong, that emotional attachments are related to having a conscience or not.
I think Martha Stout makes a pretty convincing case that this is, in fact, the case. All normal humans form some type of emotional attachments from a young age. Some are healthy, others are not. This feeling of attachment to others is what makes us 'feel' that we must go home to feed our dog even when we're late for an important meeting (to use one of her examples). Psychopaths do not feel any real emotion, just the 'rush' from sex or beating someone up (positions of power). I'd recommend reading Stout to get a better understanding of how emotional attachment is needed for conscience. I put conscience in quotes because there seems to be simple conscience, which is as Stout describes (the feeling of "I should do this, because I know how the other person/thing must feel"), and an objective conscience. Simple conscience can be mistaken. For example, the person you 'feel' for may be a psychopath. It doesn't make any objective sense for saying something like, "oh, poor Jim, he must feel so bad that his wife left him," if Jim is a psychopath. I think objective conscience involves utilizing the Third Force.

I think conscience in general [...] is rooted in the higher emotional center and has nothing to do with various dogmatic moral systems or rigid rule books, but rather, what is essential to the STO "emotional pathway" which depends on what is the right thing do in a situation to be in accord to one's intrinsic nature, or so I think.
But conscience, as it is defined and used by psychologists, at least, applies to OPs as well (i.e. 94% of the population). It can be rooted in dogmatic moral systems, but need not be, osit. Young children show traits of conscience (like empathy) before moral systems are imposed, and this seems to be a universal trait (not including psychopaths). They 'feel' that a person is in emotional pain (even if they are acting in an experimental setting) and act to help the other person.

Therefore, I think a psychopath can have an emotional attachment but in a twisted way as for i.e. seeing love as having absolute control over another,
In the case of 4D STS candidates, I think this may be the case. For psychopaths, I don't think you could even call it an emotional attachment. It is a need in the sense that they need food. I think it probably has more to do with the moving/instinctive center, but it really boggles my mind to imagine not having emotions. It seems to me that the intellectual center would take over and rationalize these instincts. Instead of liking or loving a spouse, the intellectual center merely says, "yes." When food is cut off, it says "no." Imagine having no real preference for anything. Perhaps this is why psychopaths are so bored with everything: they need to drain energy from others just to survive, as they have no real connection to creative life energy from the sex center, transduced through the lower emotional center. This may also explain why the only pain they feel is withdrawal from food (instinct/motor), or what they want (although 'want' seems to imply some emotional center functioning, but it may just be a limit to the language of trying to describe a totally different view of the world).

and so, since it is a "tool" [..] they could chemically have imprinted emotional attachments that are in accord to the 4D STS "emotional pathway", or so I think.
If psychopaths do not have an emotional center, I think this may describe OP's or controlled non-OPs better than psychopaths. I like Laura's description of a psychopath as a 'hollow straw' connection that Lizzies just such loosh through. There's really no one home. Perhaps they can be called "wide-open portals." ;)


Moreover, I think it is not the case of "potentially fully souled" individuals wishfully projecting "soul qualities" to OPs in all cases, but rather, OPs "stealing that energy from souled beings"[...].
Thanks for this clarification. It makes more sense now: that they steal energy that they cannot produce for themselves, thus appearing like non-OPs. I just finished re-reading Secret History, and the last section (on the Black Virgin, or Nature) helped clear this up, I think.

So I think -- as I mentioned the same notions in the working to Nathan recently -- that OPs don't actually have empathy but they rather emulate what can be superficially percieved to be as empathy by acting sympathetically without the actual Understanding derived through first being able to "tune in" and empathize the context of the situation,
This makes sense. I think it may work to say that non-failed OP's and non-OP's have conscience, but the former merely are capable of sympathy, the latter true empathy. Just like resonant strings on a guitar, they must be in close proximity to resonate sympathetically. It seems OPs need to be close (e.g. images of violence are 'close') to feel for others. They can't tune in to inner or far away suffering.

and second, to then sympathize in accordance to this empathic understanding and make the choice to act on what would be the right thing to do "tune" the 3D STS Being to accordance with the souls STO "emotional pathway"; furthermore, as stated before, I currently think that the key in discerning this is to see if what they do and say in the aftermath of the attacks over a long period of linear time is relevant to the heart of the matter or not, and if not, then perhaps these are synthetic "soul qualities" that are being emulated to keep one blinkered from the manipulations of 4D STS working through them.
A little summary on what you are saying, imo:

OPs act sympathetically to suffering, but without Understanding
Non-OPs empathetically Understand, and can act in resonance with this Understanding

I'm still not clear what you mean by "what they say and do in the aftermath of attacks." Can you give some examples, and how they're important?
 
hkoehli said:
[...]
A little summary on what you are saying, imo:

OPs act sympathetically to suffering, but without Understanding
Non-OPs empathetically Understand, and can act in resonance with this Understanding
Working with your summary of what I said, I would like to make a few clarifications [to] this summarized working hypothesis:

OPs act sympathetically in the aftermath of an attack but without Understanding and thus the potential of blocking the future attacks THROUGH them.

"potentially fully souled" individuals, who are non-OPs in potential, may empathetically Understand depending on their level of Knowlege and Being, and due to this empathetic understanding, act sympathetically or compassionately in regards to what is the right thing to do within the context of the situation.

hkoehli said:
I'm still not clear what you mean by "what they say and do in the aftermath of attacks." Can you give some examples, and how they're important?
What I mean is that they act upset for what they have done after an attack, but they don't really seem to understand emotionally the depth of what they have done, and then they repeat the same mistake over again...

Anyways, You have asked for some examples... I am emotionally reluctant to give some examples currently from my own personal experiences and [the] reason is that I am not yet clear about some particular individuals in my Life being OPs or not. The thing is that I don't really concern myself too much with whether a[n] individual is an OP or not but with rather how I am interacting in the relationship, that is, if I am acting selfishly or not; however, I do take notes of certain things and keep them in the back of my mind until I have more data. So If I was clear, then I would had "passed the grade", but since I am not, I am still unsure and learning to "see the unseen", and so, I am reluctant to give personal examples since I am still in the process of simply observing these certain individuals with who I interact with on a regular basis, with the emphasis on how I am choosing and acting in every interaction. One of these individuals who I was intimate with in the linear past and who had emotionally hurt 'me' due to 'my' possesive expectations is the one that I currently interact with on a regular basis and the one that I Love, and I Love her beacuse of the lessons she is teaching me about my own machine indirectly...so perhaps you might think that this [is] the reason for the reluctance, because of my emotional attachment; however, there are other reasons as well as [] in this close relationship[,] which is now a strong friendship that make the matter more complicated, and thus, full of lessons. I think that most of the [] faults were mainly from my end due to identifying with my own machine's scorpionic possessive expectations, that is the conditioned predator programmings of the inner dog of [the] scorpio man, in the linear past and thus, having a lack of Understanding of how I allowed myself to instinctually cling to a libran women whose mentality and machine g[o]t put off by such conditioned predator programmings, and rightly so, in the linear past.

Anyways, enough said from my end.
 
Saman said:
hkoehli said:
[...]
A little summary on what you are saying, imo:

OPs act sympathetically to suffering, but without Understanding
Non-OPs empathetically Understand, and can act in resonance with this Understanding
Working with your summary of what I said, I would like to make a few clarifications [to] this summarized working hypothesis:

OPs act sympathetically in the aftermath of an attack but without Understanding and thus the potential of blocking the future attacks THROUGH them.

"potentially fully souled" individuals, who are non-OPs in potential, may empathetically Understand depending on their level of Knowlege and Being, and due to this empathetic understanding, act sympathetically or compassionately in regards to what is the right thing to do within the context of the situation.
Yeah, that 'may' in the second part is important. I think that I was thinking in more general terms, while you were specifically describing 'attack' situations. That's why I just said that OPs act sympathetically to suffering, not necessarily to any attack situation. I think it might be important to know what exactly goes through the mind of an OP after they have been used. For example, after being 'turned off', while driving, in order to crash into the object of attack, what does the OP think? I picture one saying, "I don't know what happened, I didn't even see them coming. I mean, I guess I'm sorry and all, but I can't even remember running that red light." This would be perceived by others as being a normal reaction: the OP appears to be in shock, and sorry for his actions. But there is no real heart-ache, just confusion, and perhaps the presence of what I called simple conscience at the sight of his victim. Any thoughts?
 
hkoehli said:
Saman said:
hkoehli said:
[...]
A little summary on what you are saying, imo:

OPs act sympathetically to suffering, but without Understanding
Non-OPs empathetically Understand, and can act in resonance with this Understanding
Working with your summary of what I said, I would like to make a few clarifications [to] this summarized working hypothesis:

OPs act sympathetically in the aftermath of an attack but without Understanding and thus the potential of blocking the future attacks THROUGH them.

"potentially fully souled" individuals, who are non-OPs in potential, may empathetically Understand depending on their level of Knowlege and Being, and due to this empathetic understanding, act sympathetically or compassionately in regards to what is the right thing to do within the context of the situation.
Yeah, that 'may' in the second part is important. I think that I was thinking in more general terms, while you were specifically describing 'attack' situations. That's why I just said that OPs act sympathetically to suffering, not necessarily to any attack situation. I think it might be important to know what exactly goes through the mind of an OP after they have been used. For example, after being 'turned off', while driving, in order to crash into the object of attack, what does the OP think? I picture one saying, "I don't know what happened, I didn't even see them coming. I mean, I guess I'm sorry and all, but I can't even remember running that red light." This would be perceived by others as being a normal reaction: the OP appears to be in shock, and sorry for his actions. But there is no real heart-ache, just confusion, and perhaps the presence of what I called simple conscience at the sight of his victim. Any thoughts?
If non-OPs in potential may have the capability for "objective conscience" as you have termed it, and also "simple conscience" as it been explained due to the may of whether being an OP or non-OP in potential, I am not sure how else to tell if whether an individual is an OP or an non-OP in potential other then a long period of observation as to see if they learn from their mistakes or not. If the pattern as immerged that they don't seem to, then I would give the subject a high possibility of Being an OP, and not a probability since there is still the concern due to the May. So because of this high possibility, I would then be extra vigilant and careful in my interactions with the individual who is in high possibility an OP, or May be still a non-OP in potential. So to conclude, it doesn't matter if the individual is an OP or an non-OP in potential. What matters I think is IF one is being drained or attacked repeatedly through them, and being aware of this without and forgetting it by shrugging it under rug is what I think helps from blocking future vectored attacks through them.
 
With Saman's interesting notion in mind:

...maybe it would be a more sound assessment to state that they can sympathize more readily with physical pain rather then both sympathize and empathize...
I thought it might be revelant to post some definitions of empathy and sympathy.

sym
 
I think it is more than likely that the dictionaries would be written by OP's, sure they are usefull, but who writes them? The thing that strikes me as disturbing the most psychopathic sounding definition comes from a medical dictionary as nathan pointed out above. The words empathy, sympathy and compassion are all very similar, but they all have a different orientation and feel to them. Sympathy almost always is used in regard to something negative. You can sympathize with someone having a bad day, but it doesn't make sense to say you can sympathize with someone having a good day. There was something else I noticed in the above definitions ... in regard to the definitions of sympathy that go with loyalty and agreement, isn't it weird that the only place where we regularly hear those definitions used would be that of politics? There are two languages called english. It's like the neocons use of the words freedom and democracy ...

Empathy at its highest level does designate psychic ability, but I wouldn't say so much that it is a precursor to telepathy, rather it is a similar ability regarding feelings, whereas telepathy just deals with thoughts. I think the ultimate answer to determining who is an OP would be to develop empathy to the highest level, but then empaths suffer more than anyone else on this rock, what a frustrating catch 22. Telepathy would certainly tell one who is a psychopath, and who is a non-OP with STO leaning. Okay, telepaths probably suffer horribly too - yipes, imagine having access to everyone's thoughts - oh that would create a fine level of maddness. I would prefer to be an empath instead of a telepath any day, but that is irrelevant considering I have a bit of work before I can be either - lol

Getting back to the definitions of the words I realized something strange. I could say that I can sympathize for a psychopath, but can't empathize with them, and a psychopath could say exactly the same thing, and both would be true based on the definitions but the meaning would be completely different. The more I think about this material I can't help but feel sorry for OP's in general ... the emptiness of their relative experience is shocking to me ... it would be like looking at a painting and seeing only canvas and ink. I know it is foolish to feel such for an OP, they wouldn't know what they were missing and the psychopathic OP's wouldn't even want to experience such. Regardless of all that, I think these language cues are very important, more than I can express. Though even these little hints that are found in language would be of limited value in picking out who may or may not be an OP particularly the psychopaths, I think they would be usefull in understanding the differences in the way people think. They seem to get a dictionary somewhere that has the differences in meaning, and more importantly how to manipulate words. It's like the use of the word sympathy, why would someone in politics use that word when they mean allegiance? The obvious answer to me is that it has sub-conscious links to the other ideas that the word has, and therefore would be a tool for manipulation. I'm almost tempted to go through all the speeches of the neocons to try and hunt down other words that have these dual meanings ... we really need a dictionary of ways psychopaths use words!
 
highmystica said:
The words empathy, sympathy and compassion are all very similar, but they all have a different orientation and feel to them. Sympathy almost always is used in regard to something negative. You can sympathize with someone having a bad day, but it doesn't make sense to say you can sympathize with someone having a good day. [...]
I think it would help to think about sympathy using an analogy: music. When one string is vibrating an E, the other string tuned to E will vibrate in resonance. In the same way, viewing pictures of sad people will make us feel sad, or happy pictures will make us happy. This is deceptive, as we can sympathize with a psychopath acting various parts (we do this whenever we watch movies, but that's a different situation). I think the definitions for sympathy point to this: relationship of affinity, sharing feelings, harmonious agreement. If we make a real distinction between sympathy and empathy, perhaps we could say sympathy is the 'simple conscience' of only being moved by close, obvious pain (e.g. physical). Strings do not sympathetically vibrate if they are too far apart...

Therefore, empathy could be the more abstract version of "Identification with and understanding of another's situation." That medical definition is curious, Nathan, as it seems to be saying that empathy is pretending that objects have subjectivity (as in, being a subject, or individual). Just what are these objects? Other people? If so, this is like saying "only I exist, everyone else is a figment of my imagination." Perhaps they're describing animism or something like it?

The second definition does point to more of a telepathic, inner resonance. This could relate to a dynamic I tend to see a lot, where an initial state, A, goes through state B to reach state C or A'. For example (I'm still working with the words and definitions, so let me know if you think there's a better way to represent this):

A - sympathy/resonance with outer stimuli, e.g. physical facial displays of emotion
B - sympathy + empathy, or trying to imagine another's full situation (i think this is all we have until we can really see the unseen, it would be hubristic to think we already have this capacity)
A' - true empathy, which is seeing the unseen, being able to identify with another's situation, or vicariously experience it. This is a kind of sympathy with 'inner' vibrations (i.e. there is no real stimulus in the physical world that is responsible for the empathizer's reaction)

I remember reading a good Signs editorial on sympathy vs. empathy from 2004 in the Human Condition booklet, but can't find it online, and my book is being borrowed by a friend. Looking at Thorbiorn's index for the book, it appears to be on page 125.

Getting back to the definitions of the words I realized something strange. I could say that I can sympathize for a psychopath, but can't empathize with them, and a psychopath could say exactly the same thing, and both would be true based on the definitions but the meaning would be completely different. [...]
I think the psychopath would have to have a capacity for feeling to be able to resonate in sympathy with another's displays of emotion.
 
Just a small clarification about the example that is quoted above. I was refering to how myself and a psychopath could say something in regard to a second psychopath, the first psycopath would already be in resonance and therefore sympathize for the second in the sense of sympathizing with the beliefs of the other one. I would be sympathizing with the psychopath for either existing in such a hollow state in the sense of symapthy being similar to pity, provided in the case that the second psychopath is known to be a psychopath, or with the mask of the second, again in similar sence of feeling distress for whatever that mask is presenting in the case of an unknown psychopath. Empathy, almost always has a sense of connection to soul or feelings, not just knowing them, but feeling them, as part of its connotations ... and there can be no empathy if there aren't any feelings ...

Considering the connotations of words, I believe laura posted something out about that in regard to the strange word use of of psychopaths where they can use a word correctly in its technical sense, but don't use it correctly in its common sense - I'm not sure if it was on this thread or on one in the ponerology section - probably on several threads ...

I like your example of resonance above hkoehli, but I think I would use it with the word empathy instead, because that breed of pyschics known as empaths certainly seem to resonate with the feelings of another, though empaths never describe it as "seeing", they feel the unseen ... Though maybe empaths should be called sympaths - im not sure what the prefix em means but sym seems to describe the connection or similarity from how it appears in other words ... blah, english is perfectly flawed ...
 
It is interesting that the word empathy is quite misunderstood. Even the common Greek understanding of this word is confused with the English one. Funny thing is that in reality the Greek word refers to a state where one os full of pathos (negativity) within, that within you there is hatred, venom, etc. The meaning is akin to that of endopathy (which can mean a physical illness or suffering in the body), but in the psychological sense. Somehow, this word got transferred to English with the opposite meaning, and has been confused with sympathy.

Sympathy, in Greek, is the feeling generated by the participation in the pain and/or need of another. Apathy is the complete lack of this feeling, and a complete lack of inner participation in the passion of another.

In the popular sense, pathos is most often regarded as pain and suffering. In the literal sense, it is passion, which can also have positive connotations. Basically, it is an intense state of the experience of being, not limited to emotions. This more literal interpretation of pathos also alters the conventional meanings of empathy, sympathy and even apathy to an extent.

The bottom line would be according to the Greek etymologies that empathy would be internalized passion or focus on one's own intense state of being (compatible with STS), sympathy would be resonating with another's state (compatible with STO) and apathy would be no feeling within or without (STN- compatible with service to nothing).

Words, however, take on popular meanings beyond their basic etymologies. Apathy, for example, is literally a neutral state. It is neither benign or malignant. However, we associate it with lack of feeling in the face of evil for the most part. In truth, to do evil one must internalize it, which is the original meaning of empathy.

Empathy has actually come to refer to the subjective state during sympathy. Sympathy (which in Greek contains both subjective state and objective identification, both feelings and relationship), in English seems to be more limited to the effects of relationship or the expression of subjective empathy.

One would think that the inner sense of participating in the psychological state of another, and the expression and relationship qualities related to that sense would be inextricably tied as a psychological continuum. The English wordage, however, has managed to sever that tie and insulate empathy into a purely subjective state, while sympathy is more a social behaviour.

And this confusion can result in many disagreements, because one obviously must feel sympathetic to express sympathy, and one must certainly be able to express empathy (even if the original meaning of empathy was- as still is in Greek- to be selfishly locked in your own little world).

And at the other end of this apparently arbitrary dichotomy is the word "apathy", which has been grafted onto the original meaning of empathy, therefore referring to a lack of consideration for others, when it can also imply a lack of consideration for oneself (and hence selflessness). It also literally means to be free from pain.

What is interesting, is that if OP's and psychopaths have had a strong hand in the evolution of these definitions, they have created a definite twisting of meanings, which we have learned to take for granted. The twisting doesn't really show, since there is a basic agreement regarding these words unless you take all three, and try to understand them together, and in comparison with one another.

In this triad the most glaring inconsistency is revealed in the overlap of meanings between sympathy and empathy. This may not seem to hinder communication, but it does dilute the power of these words to carry their defined meanings. Without strongly defined meanings, therefore, I believe words lose part of their power to transmit potential truth and understanding.

They lose coherence, and we simply brush it off because the approximation of what is generally implied seems enough. And yet, within communication this can lead to misunderstandings, especially within a potential background field of impending dissonance in a group (primed by consciuos manipulators, chaotic psychopathic outbursts form members, or simply unrecognized non-physical stress stimuli).

When you focus on the stark definition of any word, however, and own that definition, every time you express that word it carries far more force of conviction and truth than if you are satisfied with "what seems to be implied". The word also resists manipulation, because of its greater coherence of meaning. And this force of conviction regarding what you are communicating, this strongly defined meaning, carries to the receiver(s) of the communication.

This may seem like an exaggeration at first, but we all have noticed the power of words to generate dissonant states. Similarly, words can generate states resonant with clarity, objectively founded conviction, and the conduction of understanding from person to person. Words are carriers of knowledge (although not exclusively so), and it behooves us to pay attention to the devil(s) in the details here.

In view of that, it's really no surprise that the meanings of empathy and sympathy have been short circuited, osit.
 
Up above EsoQuest said:
What is interesting, is that if OP's and psychopaths have had a strong hand in the evolution of these definitions, they have created a definite twisting of meanings, which we have learned to take for granted.

And it reminded me of this thing I read in a book, the author described yiddish as being german to spite german. I wouldn't think it is fair to ascribe this kind of twisting to OP's in general, but rather to psychopathic OP's, and non-OP's that are aligned with the 4D-STS, for they are the ones that make use of this kind of manipulation. I would offer that the part in the evolution of language as played by the average OP would be that of simplifying. And the part that is played by non-OP's who are not aligned with the PTB would be that of enriching a language.

Incidently the book was called kvetch, I didn't make it very far through the book so I can't offer much of a review, I found it to be annoying to no end, perhaps though I should make another attempt at reading it to see if I can find any more hints.
 
highmystica said:
I wouldn't think it is fair to ascribe this kind of twisting to OP's in general, but rather to psychopathic OP's, and non-OP's that are aligned with the 4D-STS, for they are the ones that make use of this kind of manipulation. I would offer that the part in the evolution of language as played by the average OP would be that of simplifying. And the part that is played by non-OP's who are not aligned with the PTB would be that of enriching a language.
OP's represent a vast spectrum of humanity. What does distinguish them is that they feel dissonance with anything having to do with individuation. It is this tendency, IMO, that makes it easy for psychopaths and non-physical influences to manipulate them against individuating humans.

There are OP's with high morals and OP's with low morals. However, both ends of the spectrum do not deal well with anything that resonates with individuation. Those of low morals may be more prone to act as portals of attack in an evidently destructive fashion, while those of high morals may end up engaging in processes such as selective oversimplification of ideas that can be directly inspiring to those prone to individuation.

It is, furthermore, evident IMO that OP's when engaging in such counter-individuating dynamics tend to look innocent, and they themselves may have no conscious awareness of the effects of their actions. However, I do not believe they are simply sitting duck puppets. They accept this puppeting at some level, and participate in it because it always promises to reduce the dissonance of confronting probabilities that bring them into relationship with energies of individuation.

OP's on the whole are not agreeable with individuation in any shape or form. They do not consider it normal, and do not consider it right. A psychopath will go our of his/her way to attack, but an OP will allow him/herself to be led in directions that tend to minimize individuation in the world, if it gets too close to them.

If the OP has high morals they may be resistant to doing violence. If they are prone to obey the moral letter, as many OP's are, they may just avoid looking at what is going on and allow it to evolve as an accident. If they have low morals, they may actively participate in the puppeting and support it.

OP's by and large, are defensive regarding anything that threatens or seems to threaten the stability of their existential status quo (and the latter term can include a wide spectrum of versions).

What I am trying to say is that OP's can feel discomfort when a word such as sympathy becomes an anchor of understanding for people prone to individuation. We know that the Christian religion focused on empathy/sympathy, agape and compassion. It may be, therefore, that because of this focus dissonance was created in those of greater mental orientation, the scholars or academics who are more focused on words.

I don't know when the word empathy was adopted into the English language, but it must have been after the onset of the Christian era, possibly later. These are of course speculations. What is evident, however, is that somewhere along the line the meaning of the word empathy was inverted and overlapped and confused with the word sympathy. It is not the inversion that makes a difference, IMO, but the overlapping of one word, which has evolved to describe a state of compassion with a word that tends to often describe a sentimental condition.

Words are not to be underestimated, IMO. They play the role of psychological stimulants. Notice here we do not use the word compassion often. I think it's because it has been given religious/ethical connotations. Empathy seems a potentially more objective word than compassion, because we do not usually use it in a sentimental context. Agape has been confused with the word "love", which also takes on many meanings.

In Greek there are several meanings for the word love, which maintains a high definition. However, the Greeks over-analyzed these meanings in their philosphies and within the context of Christianity. Agape, for example is particularly monopolized by Christian Orthodoxy, and any deeper transformative context was lost. Empathy as we tend to understand it in English would have that high focus if it's meanings could be distinct from sympathy, which has been too diluted, IMO to have great impact.

For example, if we say we have to develop sympathy for others, that sounds a bit like sentimentality. It may seem like I am overanalyzing this, and perhaps I am, but the point is that when the words are placed side by side, one is really not sure what is what, especially if one examinese the corresponding etymologies.

The individuating power of empathy is the power to contain the world within you: to be a reflection of the world, and hence experience the lessons of the world within you in a soul context. And when you conversly experience the world as a reflection of you, it is not a an attitude of selfishness.

This is because empathy has already taken precedence, and your internal world is already in receptivity to the objective. You are, therefore, not trying to force it to conform to predetermined subjectivity. This allows lessons to more clearly manifest. This empathy is, furthermore, developed first in interpersonal relationships with others.

IMO, OP's can feel sympathy, but empathy in the deeper sense can make them feel uncomfortable. Even thinking about it. Compassion is the accurate English word, and the literal translation of "compassion" is sympathia or sympathy. Yet, I do not feel this word to express the property of "as in you so in me" the the word empathy can convey, even if etymologically confused.

And I am not advocating returning to the original meaning, just observing an interesting twist, which I do not think is coincidental. Empathy is STILL a powerful word when we allow it to contain the deeper meaning of "as in you so in me". And words do have power. Even esoteric traditions recognize that.

So when a word is used in the wrong context consistently, it developes erroneous associations and its power as a psychological stimulant is diluted. In this case, I think that it is not farfetched that certain someones (maybe scholars, maybe general populations as a matter of course, most probably OP's), consistently diluted the relationship between empathy and sympathy.

This would not have been possible prior to the inversion of the meaning of empathy. Even in Greece, most people understand empathy in the English context (at least I did, and read a few discussions on the matter), and I had to look at some dictionaries to veryify that that context is not the correct one for Greek.

Anyway, the point is that OP's can twist things. They can translate foreign texts and alter meanings, and they can believe they are justified in doing so for one reason or another. I don't think the Bible was written, and translated by psychopaths, for example.

To an OP dissonance is the enemy, and not something that can provide a lesson. And they do anything to counter that dissonance, including the dissonance they feel when confronted with anything related to individuation, which to them is at best chaos and lunacy.

They are not predatorial against individuation (although some can be maneuvered to be so), but they will try to undermine it at every turn simply because they believe it is the right thing to do, no matter what exuses they make to themselves and/or others, and even if they deny what they are doing as they do it.
 
:) I would be careful about the possible meanings of words through Greek etymologies. You know those "Greek Enforcers", as the C's said, did do a few rewritings to "stalinized" things...I wouldn't be suprised if meanings of certain words were one of those things....
 
highmystica said:
Just a small clarification about the example that is quoted above. I was refering to how myself and a psychopath could say something in regard to a second psychopath, the first psycopath would already be in resonance and therefore sympathize for the second in the sense of sympathizing with the beliefs of the other one.
Thanks for the clarification, highmystica, sorry about the misunderstanding. That makes more sense. This 'psychopathic sympathy' might even explain their 'special knowledge' and how they form elite groups of themselves.

EsoQuest, thanks for the definitions. Leaving out empathy, perhaps my A and A' distinctions can be called "surface sympathy" and "real sympathy". The former relates to subjective surface behaviour, the latter to the true inner reality.
 

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