Part of Polish gov members including president probably dead in plane crash

From what was said by a witness interviewed by polish tv, there was small explosion (or two) before the plane crashed (the pilot unloaded the fuel and then tried to land 3 times as far as we know from other reports). He thought that a small aeroplane had an accident until he get to the place (not very far from his home) and saw that it was a big one and polish at that.


Edit: I forgot to add, that there is 98 confirmed deaths - all the ppl that were on that plane
 
NormaRegula said:
Laura said:
Yeah, this is pretty huge and if it is Secret Team activity, very bold. On the other hand, it could be that the Universe is acting on its own in reaction...

As in another bolide explosion like the one the C's said destroyed Air France Flight 447?

No, I had in mind more energetic/divine type of thing. You know, like just a convergence of a whole lot of little negative energy things for that group of people.
 
And two other witnesses who had seen the plane just before it hit the tree, said that it's engine was making very strange sounds and the plane was leaning to the left. Russians say that it was all pilot's fault but these witnesses' reports make me wonder if that's the whole truth. From what I understood, those witnesses work and live near the airport in Smolensk and they are acquainted with the sounds that engines of airplanes make. If they say that those sounds were very strange, then media should pay more attention to that but they don't. I even didn't hear any comment on that, all I hear is about the fog and the pilot's fault.
 
It could sound unusual even for them (witnesses), maybe because the crew was attempting to do unusual thing like sudden pull up forcing engines and hard turning at the same time... However it makes me wonder too.
 
Eboard10 said:
In a sense I hope this was truly an accident though I highly doubt it. I am curious to know what happened to the plane; it's hard to see what happened to it from the picture of the aircrafts wreckage. Plus for all the people to die the crash must have been very violent.

here is what they are saying on the news and blogs in Russia:

there was fog and low visibility in Smolensk airport. An airplane from Moscow that was supposed to land before Kachinsky's plane was advised to go for an emergency landing to a neighboring airport or back to Moscow, and did so. Same thing was told to Kachinksy's pilot.

Kachinsky and his delegation were going to Katyn memorial in Smolensk to commemorate the slaughter of Polish officers there during WW II. Russia and Poland still don't have a consensus on historic significance of the event and on apportioning of blame for it. The commemoration was to be a big event. Cam't imagine a more symbolic setting for the tragedy, to be honest :(.

If they were to land elsewhere due to adverse conditions, the event would have to have been truncated or rescheduled. It is unclear who has made a decision to land despite bad conditions. It was either the pilot's personal decision to overrule the recommendation, or possibly Kachinsky's choice. There was another precedent when the late Polish president personally took such decision, to land the plane with his delegation, despite adverse conditions. That was in Georgia during the conflict with Russia. The landing was rough then but nobody was hurt.

The Russian airport has the navigation systems for "blind" landing, they are of standard military issue and pretty exact, same or better than world standards. Ordinarily, TU-154 has inbuilt navigation systems that work with those. However, the TU-154 that Kachinsky was flying on was refurbished with a european system with GPS guidance etc, which is standard for flying on European air routes. It is possible that the original TU navigation system was dismantled during the upgrade.

So the pilot attempted three landings either via GPS guidance which is not precise in that part of the world, or tried to go by visuals. The latter requires that the pilot initiates the landing at the height of 60 m, for this type of aircraft, while seeing the landing strip. The first three times the pilot didn't see the landing strip at 60 m and went on for a fourth try. It is possible that on the fourth try they THOUGHT they saw the land and started looking for it actively, with their attention distracted from the control panel. If at that point a pilot accidently pushes the steering wheel up, then on the height of less then 60 m and low speeds the plain sags in the air and loses balance. Because of this, the plain's trajectory changed and it missed the landing strip. This is apparently a known danger with that type of aircraft.

If, before attempting to land, the pilots have listened to the dispatcher who was advising to pull up, increase speed and try again, looks like nothing may have happened. Or so they say.

fwiw
 
Besides the presidential couple a few important names figure on the death toll:

Chief of General Staff of the Armed Forces, Gen. Franciszek Gagor (highly recognised in NATO structures)
Chief Operative of the Armed Forces, Gen. Bronislaw Kwiatkowski
Commander of the Ground Forces, Lt.-Gen. Tadeusz Buk
Commander of the Air Forces, Gen. Andrzej Blasik
Commander of the Special Forces, Gen. Wojciech Potasinski
Naval Commander, Vice-admiral Andrzej Karweta
and...
President of the National Bank of Poland, Slawomir Skrzypek

That there were so many high rank officials in one plane is at least veery suspicious, I think. Add to this some discrepancies in relations concerning the crash (like strange noise of the engine or the captain repeatedly not abiding by the recommendations from the tower)
Maybe it's kind of overreacting and seeing conspiracy everywhere but I just can't believe it could happen this way all by itself...
 
The eyewitness' relation to the event:

http://www.huffingtonpost.com/2010/04/10/poland-plane-crash-eyewit_n_532924.html

"I had been here 15 minutes when I saw the plane flying low, and I saw something serious was going on. It was cutting, cutting trees. Then over there, there was a big noise. Boom! Like a bomb."
 
Another thing - They said there was the fog in the area so how he could see anything.... thru the fog? weird
 
Darek said:
The eyewitness' relation to the event:

http://www.huffingtonpost.com/2010/04/10/poland-plane-crash-eyewit_n_532924.html

"I had been here 15 minutes when I saw the plane flying low, and I saw something serious was going on. It was cutting, cutting trees. Then over there, there was a big noise. Boom! Like a bomb."

If the eyewitness saw the plane then visibility couldn't heve been zero though probably very low. The explosion he talks about could have resulted from the fuel tanks being ignited causing a huge explosion. That's what must have killed everyone. An example is the first plane crash you can see on the below video.

_http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=iNg91jlf2Lw
 
There is another thing that bothers me. One of Polish journalists (I think he is working for TVN24) who was at the place of the accident 10 minutes after the accident had happened (and who started to film how cars of authorities were coming to the place of that event), was stopped by Russian police and spend a couple of hours on police station under the pretext of invalidity of his visa. Luckily, he had managed to take out a film reel from his video camera before he was detained and to hide it. Why police officers and soldiers would be so anxious about filming the area of the accident just after the accident took place? And again… media didn’t pay any attention to that journalist’s case. EDIT: Host of the program, Jaroslaw Kuzniar completely ignored that journalist's report. That's very strange. His colleague spends long hours on the police station because of trying to film such an important event and there’s completely no reaction.

EDIT 2: It reminds me of the accident that took place two years ago.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Miros%C5%82awiec_air_accident

The Mirosławiec air accident occurred on 19:07 CET, 23 January 2008 in Poland. EADS CASA C-295 of Polish Air Force from Warsaw to Mirosławiec 12th Air Base crashed on approach to Mirosławiec runway. All passengers and crew aboard were killed.[1] The number of victims is given at 20, among them high-ranking Air Force officers.[2] This accident was the first serious accident of CASA C-295. The primary cause of the accident was determined to be an inadvertent loss of spatial and situational awareness by the aircraft crew during the landing approach in poor weather conditions, with low cloud ceiling and little visibility.[3] A number of secondary causes and contributing factors were also found by the investigation after the accident.

All Polish C-295s were grounded until further notice.[4] Polish defence minister Bogdan Klich has dismissed five air force personnel after accident investigation which concluded that multiple failings contributed to the 23 January crash.[5]

So that's the second crash of a Polish airplane with high-rank army officers on a board in two years…
 
There are so many contradictions and questions that's hard to list them. I'm trying to keep track of upcoming news, blogs and comments, copying the most important or inconsistent. The main question seems to be, who the heck agreed and let all the officials fly together, how could have it happened???!!! That's absolutely unprecedented event.

I really don't know what to think. Given what's going on in the world, it's hard to believe it was an accident and nothing more. On the other hand, the least possible things do happen. I'm only afraid that we won't be able to know what has really happened. Russians don't let Polish journalists be around, and the black boxes are going to be investigated by Russians. As Mijas said, according to some sources the first person who saw and recorded (?) the crash was a Polish journalist, approached very quickly by Russian services who tried to confiscate his equipment. Some say he managed to hide his tape. He also claimed he saw a black box, while according to the first Russian reports there were no black boxes in sight.

But here is a background, which may or may not be significant.

_http://www.monstersandcritics.com/news/europe/news/article_1545989.php/PREVIEW-Poland-Russia-to-mark-Katyn-massacre-amid-tensions

By Dominika Maslikowski Apr 6, 2010, 3:06 GMT

Warsaw - Polish and Russian leaders are this week due to mark the 70th anniversary of the Katyn massacre, in which Soviet troops murdered some 22,000 Polish officers in a Russian forest, an atrocity that continues to strain relations.

Russian Prime Minister Vladimir Putin is scheduled to take part in a ceremony on April 7 in Katyn with his Polish counterpart Donald Tusk.

Polish President Lech Kaczynski will mark the anniversary in a separate ceremony on April 10.

Tusk's visit will include talks with Putin on current political matters
, while the ceremony will include the laying of wreaths and speeches from both leaders.

In nearby Smolensk, a Polish-Russian group created in 2002 to deal with controversial matters in Polish-Russian history will present its latest findings to Tusk and Putin. The group has sought to open up archives in both nations.

Poland wants Russia to release the documents it holds on the Katyn massacre, one of the most controversial events of the war, which Warsaw says it needs as proof to bring the perpetrators of the killings to justice.

Some claim the ceremonies signal a positive shift in Polish- Russian relations.

Tensions grew in August 2008 when Poland agreed to host a United States missile defence system
. Relations have remained chilly, despite President Barack Obama having recently opted for a simpler version of the system.

Tusk said his invitation from Putin was an important step in improving relations, and that their honouring of Katyn victims had a 'very important symbolic aspect.' Putin reportedly told Tusk he knew what an important place Katyn had in Polish memory.

'It's very important that Russia's premier is hosting the ceremony,' Polish Senate speaker Bogdan Borusewicz told a Russian daily in February. 'Up until now, Russian officials have distanced themselves from participating.'

However, Polish President Lech Kaczynski did not receive an invitation, which caused speculation that Putin was punishing the Polish leader for his outspoken critiques of the Kremlin.

Kaczynski is regarded by some as a Eurosceptic, and emerged as one of Moscow's most vocal critics during the Russia-Georgia conflict in August 2008.


Kaczynski could travel to Katyn, but nobody will meet him, an anonymous source from Russia's foreign ministry told the Russian edition of Newsweek. The source added that Russian President Dmitry Medvedev was not intending to invite Kaczynski either.

Kaczynski said he would be going to Katyn anyway.

'I am happy that the premier will be (in Katyn),' Kaczynski said in February. 'But the highest representative of the Republic of Poland is the president and I will be (in Katyn) also.'

'I hope I get a visa,' he added.

Kaczynski later announced he would be leading a ceremony in the Katyn forest on April 10, along with veterans organizations and some 300 family members of Katyn victims.

Kaczynski said he was not going to Katyn to 'inflame relations with Russia,' but instead to pay tribute to the victims, reported the Polish Press Agency.

A special train has been set up to take some 400 people to the ceremony, including the families of victims, scouts, volunteers and Polish soldiers. The ceremony is to include a holy mass and a speech by Kaczynski.

The two separate dates do not mean the ceremonies have been split into two, said the head of Tusk's chancellery Tomasz Arabski, but that there will be one ceremony lead by Kaczynski and another bilateral visit between Tusk and Putin.

Ceremonies are also scheduled to take place in several Polish cities, and in the United States.

Events in Warsaw are set for April 13, officially recognised in Poland as a Day of Remembrance for the victims. It is also the anniversary of the day when German troops discovered a mass grave in the Katyn forest in 1943.

The ceremonies are a reminder that the victims were 'murdered twice,' said Warsaw Mayor Hanna Gronkiewicz-Waltz: 'The first time with a shot to the back of the head, and a second time when their memory was at first falsified and later for decades was tried to be wiped out.'

After World War II, when Poland was lead by a Kremlin-backed communist regime, Soviet authorities blamed the massacre on the Nazis and suppressed historical evidence. Russia only acknowledged responsibility for the mass killings in 1990.

An oak tree of remembrance will be planted in a central Warsaw park to honour the murdered officers, the mayor said. Other events will include a holy mass, a changing of the guards ceremony at the Tomb of the Unknown Soldier, laying of flowers at a monument to victims at Warsaw's military cemetery, and a multimedia concert at the Polish National Opera.

Educational materials will also be sent out to primary and high schools throughout Poland. In the capital, historical re-enactment groups dressed in Polish Army uniforms will lead a 'March of Shadows' down Warsaw's streets.

Officials will also reveal the names of more than 100 officers killed in Katyn whose identities had not yet been made public. The remains of those officers were found by the Red Cross before the German forces discovered the mass graves in 1943.

An international conference will be held at the United States Library of Congress on May 5, and is set to include a speech from former presidential national security adviser Zbigniew Brzezinski.
 
Mijas said:
Why police officers and soldiers would be so anxious about filming the area of the accident just after the accident took place?

maybe they weren't sure if this particular crash had been aided by those at the top and thus followed standard procedure of retaining all potential evidence? that would partially explain the information chaos relating to the event.

anyway, it's interesting that in Polish media there has been, as for yet, no mention of a possibility of Russian secret operation or terrorist attack. this is the kind of questions that usually appear immediately in case of a plane catastrophe. presumably the journalists have been given directives not to let out any material that could potentially contribute to worsening our relations with Russian country.

of course it doesn't prevent the emergence of "conspiracy theories" outside of mainstream media. that's probably why the Russian government engaged themselves so much into investigation, inviting Polish agencies to cooperate - to eradicate speculations that finally may find their way to the surface.
 
Possibility of Being said:
There are so many contradictions and questions that's hard to list them. I'm trying to keep track of upcoming news, blogs and comments, copying the most important or inconsistent. The main question seems to be, who the heck agreed and let all the officials fly together, how could have it happened???!!! That's absolutely unprecedented event.

I really don't know what to think. Given what's going on in the world, it's hard to believe it was an accident and nothing more. On the other hand, the least possible things do happen. I'm only afraid that we won't be able to know what has really happened. Russians don't let Polish journalists be around, and the black boxes are going to be investigated by Russians. As Mijas said, according to some sources the first person who saw and recorded (?) the crash was a Polish journalist, approached very quickly by Russian services who tried to confiscate his equipment. Some say he managed to hide his tape.

Yes, I also can't believe it was a normal accident. Maybe that's because last night I had a dream about being on an overcrowded plane. I had to escape from that airplane because of some external dangers that occurred so probably that’s why I’m more suspicious about this accident than I should be.
And yes, this journalist definitely said that he managed to hide this tape - I listened to his live report and that’s what he said.
 
some shots from the place of catastrophe, made by a Polish journalist (?) not a long time after the crash:

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Cgw9_DmEWxE&feature=player_embedded

at 0:24 one of the black boxes is visible. Russians will officially locate them several hours later.

words of the cameraman at ca 0:40: "It's a Polish plane... Oh f**k, it's ours!"
 
Possibility of Being said:
There are so many contradictions and questions that's hard to list them. I'm trying to keep track of upcoming news, blogs and comments, copying the most important or inconsistent. The main question seems to be, who the heck agreed and let all the officials fly together, how could have it happened???!!! That's absolutely unprecedented event.

That's exactly the first thought I had as well. You don't just put a country's entire ruling elite in one plane. Who would do that?

Were they maneuvered to do it? Makes no sense. Also brings to mind the faking of their deaths so they could all abscond somewhere - though that is entirely too outlandish and idea to be considered - just crossed my mind since the whole situation is so bizarre.

I'd love to know what the thinking was on flying them all together - even small US corporations don't fly executives in the same plane - much less the whole upper echelon of a company/country.
 
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