Part of Polish gov members including president probably dead in plane crash

[D69]

To me it all looks like PTBs want this whole case as Russians fault.
That would explain why russians took care about everything so vigorously , despite that they are already accused of playing with planes blackbox , and not waiting for polish specialists - of course through those innocent media comments. This all looks weird.

 

[daniello]

Russia has just lost it's long standing critic, liberals have just lost their ONLY real competitor in forthcoming presidential elections (Lech Kaczynski actually had REAL chances for reelection) and PTB can count on that Poland finally stops lagging behind "The Plan".

The polls showed 20-30% support for Kaczyński in the next election. It was (and still is)more real for Bronisław Komorowski (around 50%) to become a new president of Poland.


Some of you asked why so many governmential v.i.p.'s and military officers were at one plane. Well, I guess that there are only 2 governmential planes which are able to fly. Only one was prepared to transport polish delegacy. Though some got to Katyń by train, I guess that Kaczyński wanted to take the most important individuals (according to him) in this plane.

It may be an energetic accident, like laura Said.

 

[sitta]

Some of you asked why so many governmential v.i.p.'s and military officers were at one plane. Well, I guess that there are only 2 governmential planes which are able to fly. Only one was prepared to transport polish delegacy.

The second plane is in Samara, where it is going through general overhaul like the first one went not so long ago.

 

[Possibility of Being]

Hi j0da, great to see you back, and I have to say that you've been on my mind last days, and most likely it had nothing to do with what AI mentioned in his post (or maybe it had, who knows).

Some more facts to the picture and some thoughts:

It appears that Polish journalists, who were to fly to Smolensk, couldn't fly together with the gov people "due to insufficient plane capacity", while TU-154 can carry ca. 150 passengers. Anyway, it's been decided they would take another gov's plane, Yak-40. But when they were already aboard, they had to get out and move to another plane due to some 'technical defects'.

I glad someone mentioned this. when I read about this occurrence this morning something felt off. when I reiterated to my friend what happened, I realized the situation sounded utterly ridiculous and detached from reality. you guys pinpointed what was bothering me, I don't understand it either. all flying on the same plane it doesn't make any sense.

You need to know that they might not have much choice. The Polish government had to their disposal two Tupolevs (TU-154), with the other one being repaired at the moment, two Yak-40's (one defected) with capacity up to 37 passengers, and 12 helicopters. That's it. But it still makes their decision highly irresponsible. By the way: Bulgaria Presidential Plane (Tu-154) Banned from Flying after Polish Crash Link

Another thing that bothers me is an lustration bill that has passed Parliament's upper house (Senate) on Thursday, when in spite of a disagreement inside the Senate, its members were forced to vote pro. Even though there was a debate before, opinions varied, and it was clear that there were many amendments required. That's an adverse bill and in its final version it gives former security agents an access to the files. The only hope was in President Kaczynski who could veto the bill or refer it to the Constitutional Tribunal. Link. Notice that that the President of the Institute of National Remembrance (IPN) Janusz Kurtyka died in the crash.

But they are just side notes. The main thing at the moment seems to have to do with the risky decision to land in Smolensk, and weird manoeuvres when trying to land. That includes some still unclear circumstances, like how many turns the plane took over the airport, weather conditions, and foremost, why the plane was too low, descending too fast, with strong tilt to the left. If not the tilt, it would pass over trees instead of catching them with its left wing. And this could suggest a flap failure.

I'm not sure if Russia is among those who benefit. Not at the moment/in short term, I think, as they are those to blame, at least for all 'conspiracy theorists'. The same time, MSM and Russians try to blame the victims - the captain or the President (or some members of the delegation).

 

[Lucius]

hello

First thing that come to my mind is maybe all is cover up and they alive ? ( they go to underground bunker and mass cover up their dis aper ? )

second - I World War start from killing "The assassination on 28 June 1914 of Archduke Franz Ferdinand of Austria, the heir to the throne of Austria-Hungary, is seen as the immediate trigger of the war, though long-term causes, such as imperialistic foreign policy, played a major role"


and last - ; "_http://www.nautilus.org.pl/?p=artykul&id=2094 [ link deactivated by moderator]
""If I do not believe, mark my words that in April this year announced WILL mourning.

In JULY AGAIN, and in September will die someone very known and respected! ""
from 10.03.2010 .

Greeting

 

[tracer]

It appears that Polish journalists, who were to fly to Smolensk, couldn't fly together with the gov people "due to insufficient plane capacity", while TU-154 can carry ca. 150 passengers. Anyway, it's been decided they would take another gov's plane, Yak-40. But when they were already aboard, they had to get out and move to another plane due to some 'technical defects'."

Tupolev Tu-154M Lux can carry up to 180 people on board. And indeed the first news of the crash were talking about 132 victims and journalists on board.
Who decided on who will fly this plane?

And if they claim it was overloaded, it was overloaded by what? Carrying capacity of Tu-154M is 18000 kilograms - _http://www.tupolev.ru/English/Show.asp?SectionID=145


But I think that in light of the whole tragedy particularly interesting is recent attack which was directed toward the Polish MPs at Ben Gurion airport in Tel Aviv.

translated by google: _http://translate.googleusercontent.com/translate_c?hl=pl&ie=UTF-8&sl=pl&tl=en&u=http://wiadomosci.wp.pl/kat,1342,title,Szczypinska-upokorzyli-nas-na-lotnisku-w-Tel-Awiwie,wid,12117415,wiadomosc.html%3Fticaid%3D19f91&prev=_t&rurl=translate.google.pl&usg=ALkJrhjBYjrT-YAdCMfctOnTZ-08xdt5nQ

"It was retaliation for our visit to the Palestinian Authority"

On Sunday evening members of the Parliamentary Group of the Polish-Palestinian statement sent PAP associated with this message Advocate of the Israeli embassy.

"The communication sent to the media by the Ombudsman of the Israeli Embassy in Warsaw, Mr Michael Sobelman on stopping us at the airport in Tel Aviv, declare that the information contained in it are entirely false" - said in a statement signed by Szczypińska, Cybulski and Milcarz.

Members added that they hope that "responsible persons, institutions, bodies, suffer the consequences for misleading the people as respectable as is spokesman for the Israeli Embassy in Warsaw, Mr. Michal Sobelman, in relation to the departments carrying out a standard and routine control of the Republic of Polish Members of Parliament will be given an appropriate reprimand. "

Szczypińska said she expects the Polish government and Foreign Ministry reaction to the bad treatment of their group at the airport in Tel Aviv. In its view, there is no doubt that the Polish members of such treatment was associated with their visit to the Palestinian Authority.

- It was a revenge for our visit to the Palestinian Authority, as we have seen too much. We saw the ordeal of the Palestinian people, camps, walls, barbed wire. We will provide this - said Mrs.

The plane crash killed most important politicians (including the two presidential candidates) of the two parties (PiS, Lewica) involved in the visit in the Palestinian Authority.
Just thinking.

 

[ranger]

Lucas

This guy didn't even bother to ask right questions.
It is a nice advert for this website too.

Could someone please translate this recording? my english isnt good enought.

 

[j0da]

The plane crash killed most important politicians (including the two presidential candidates) of the two parties (PiS, Lewica) involved in the visit in the Palestinian Authority.
Just thinking.

That's interesting. More so, when we consider that those two parties were considering forming an aliance, which would counterbalance currently governing liberal PO party.

[quote author=Daniello]The polls showed 20-30% support for Kaczyński in the next election. It was (and still is)more real for Bronisław Komorowski (around 50%) to become a new president of Poland. [/quote]

Not necessarily. In presidential elections a candidate has to get over 50% votes in order to win in first round. When none of the candidates reaches the quote, there is second turn, where two of them who got most of the votes compete again. During second round Kaczynski would receive a lot of votes from people who have previously voted in favour of less important candidates. Keep in mind that most orthodox catholic radio station (Radio Maryja) distanced itself from president Kaczynski, which in fact would act in his favour among younger voters. Second turn might have been a really close call and Kaczynski could have been reelected.

A bit from Reuters:

http://www.reuters.com/article/idUSTRE6390NQ20100410
The conservative, nationalist-minded Kaczynski twins had spearheaded opposition to Tusk's pro-market economic policies and push for swift adoption of the euro. Analysts said they expected an upsurge of sympathy for PiS now but said it was too early to predict whether this would translate into votes.
(...)
While the president's role is largely symbolic, he can veto government laws. Kaczynski had infuriated Tusk's government several times by blocking health, media and pensions reforms.

I think we all know what "pro-market" "health, media and pensions reforms" mean...

Another note about President Kaczynski - he often insisted on taking part in delegations to places he wasn't invited to, making sure "liberal, pro-market" PO party politicians weren't the only ones deciding on foreign policy. I've read somewhere about constitutional "issues", which resulted from his attending international meetings, where his authority overlapped somewhat with authority of Foreign Affairs Minister.

 

[Joe]

To me it all looks like PTBs want this whole case as Russians fault.
That would explain why russians took care about everything so vigorously , despite that they are already accused of playing with planes blackbox , and not waiting for polish specialists - of course through those innocent media comments. This all looks weird.

If the plane was destroyed by human intervention then the above is also my best guess.

 

[Jeremy F Kreuz]

thought that came up

After the attacks in the subwaysystem in Moscow, could this be another attack against Russia (and in the same moment eliminating a president that didn't comply)? Maybe it has to do with the attitude of Russia towards Iran. Maybe the PTB are sending a message to Russia that if they don't comply with the pending plans for Iran (sanctions, attacks) it will get hit by these kind of accidents over and over. Or kind of saying: see what could happen to you Megvedev and Puttin? FWIW.

Didn't drag this Polish president his feet about signing the Lisbon Treaty?

 

[adamos]

Hi everyone,

I'm from Poland and this days I'm deeply shaked because of this tragedy. 92 people are dead - among others Polish President and his Wife - near a place (Katyń) where 70 years before at Stalin's command was killed 20000 polish army officers.

Question to CS: This airplane crash was an accident or "some forces" plan this event ?

Maybe at near session someone from Team ask this question - I will be very, very grateful for this.


Best regards.

 

[adam7117]

This is just horrible - it's like some sort of a nightmare... I've just finished watching Polish news and the latest edition was over an hour long. It's incredible and so sad. Irrespective of who those people were and what they did for living - the trauma to their families, friends and people who admired them is very moving. The trauma has been inflicted to the whole nation.

The Poles are uniting in grief, wherever they are. I left Poland 15 years ago but have to admit to feeling strongly patriotic right now. Probably more than ever. Even shed a few tears despite the fact that I disagreed with pretty much everything these "elite" people did.

Seeing fellow country men and women come out of their houses, get together and share the pain just really upset me. But also gave me hope - maybe this tragic event will inspire change. Only time will tell.

I keep asking myself - why is this happening? Why is Poland always this downtrodden, an underdog, a laughing stock of the world? All throughout history, the neighbours would invade, kill and pillage - divide to conquer. Yet the nation still exists and it is full of strong, smart and spiritual people. C's said once that "Poles know the way" - is that it? Is this the reason for all this pain and trauma? I feel it in me too - it's almost genetic, inherited, sucked with my mother's milk.

Can we please find out the meaning of this, Laura? Is there a meaning or is it just a banal action of the Universe getting things right... I don't think we will know the truth otherwise.

The President was ultra-conservative and pro-US. I get the feeling from following the local news that the Prime Minister was more progressive, wanted change to happen - but he was also more pro-Russia. Maybe just an impression and there are others better informed than me. The fact that the PM and Putin got together just a few days prior, at Katyn Forest, is very chilling. I find it suspicious but it may just be a coincidence.

Now they are inseparable - what are they discussing? What is going on?

The PM and the President shared a very strong and mutual dislike towards each other. They fought all the time - and not in that pretend politicky way. At times it was just embarrassing to watch. Once - perhaps ironically - they fought over who was going to take the official plane to fly to a summit in Europe. They refused to travel together and the PM felt that he was more in charge than the President ever would be.

And Kaczynski was a stubborn man, too. Who knows, perhaps it was his own decision to land. Maybe he insisted. And bringing all these people with him on the same plane might have been just a vain attempt to create a strong status symbol. On the cheap. The elections were coming - it would have looked good on camera.

And the Russians. Well, they seem to be just apologising a lot right now. The movie about Katyn has been shown on prime TV channel - rather unexpectedly. I wouldn't be surprised if an official apology for the massacre was forthcoming. The families of the dead officials are getting free counselling - in Russia. The Russian people are sending in messages of support and unity in grief. It's almost unbelievable - like a wall is dissolving, like this was a necessary sacrifice to push something through.

The reports go on to say that many of the crash victims cannot be easily recognised and DNA tests will need to be conducted. The families have flown in to Moscow to start identifying the bodies. That must be so hard. The local authorities have provided psychological and medical assistance because the process itself can cause severe disturbance - both mentally and physically.

Not to mention that the top political figures are now gone. Apart from the President, you have the top military officials (Army and Navy), head of the National Security, top bankers, clergymen, members of the Parliament and the Senate. I guess it will soon be known whether this is all aimed at Russia. Maybe - maybe not. But we will know by their actions.

I'm just really stunned by this.

 

[go2]

After the 2004 Ukraine Orange Revolution, Moscow’s western pipeline strategy until now has been to bypass
both Ukraine and Poland through construction of an underwater gas pipeline, Nord Stream, running
from Russia directly to Germany. Poland’s Foreign Minister Radek Sikorski is a Washington trained neoconservative.
As the previous Defense Minister, he played a central role in Poland’s missile defense
agreement with Washington. Sikorski’s Poland today is bound closely to NATO, including agreeing to
Washington’s militarily provocative missile deployment policies, and he is trying at every turn, so far unsuccessfully,
to block construction of Nord Stream.

The Full Spectrum Dominance strategy of the Anglo-American Empire attempts to prevent the emergence of a Eurasian alliance which can threaten its dream of world domination. The Russian government has declared a day of national morning in harmony with the grief of its neighbor Poland. I noticed that the neo-conservative puppet Radek Sikorski was not killed in the tragic and symbolic air crash. He appears to be the Voice of Poland on Reuters and the BBC, today.

Cui Bono? Clearly the forces of the Anglo-American Empire benefit. They are determined, as they have been for the last century, to prevent the alliance of German industrial might with the vast resource base of Russia. This can be seen as the deep politics of "divide and conquer" which left the Anglo-American Empire dominant after the horror of WWII. Poland has been trampled in the struggle between giants for control of the planet. The Polish nationalist leaders were killed in the crash. Perhaps, they were beginning to discover that the future of a sovereign Poland might lie in alliance with a Russia sobered by tyranny and the collapse of imperial ambitions, rather than alliance with the cold grip of the Anglo-American intelligence agents in positions of power.

William Engdahl writes of the larger geopolitical forces in play in the Ukraine. His analysis is pertinent to situation and future of Poland. Poland's future is not in London or New York. It is in honest communication with Russia and Germany. I hope that Russia might apologize for the Katyn murders, and go on, free of psychopaths in high places.

JOda, welcome back from the darkness. It is a hard thing to live aware in a world of horrors and accept our responsibility to go on, to refuse to die like dogs, as Mr. Gurdjieff says.

 

[Joe]

I suppose it was only a matter of time before someone made this claim..

http://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/article-1265482/Russia-engineered-air-crash-killed-President-Kaczynski-claims-Polish-MP.html

'Russia engineered air crash that killed President Kaczynski,' claims Polish MP

The Russian government prevented the Polish president's plane from landing four times to divert him from a ceremony to mark the 70th anniversary of the Katyn massacre, according to an MP.

Artur Gorski said the Russians 'came up with some dubious reasons' that the aircraft couldn't land because they feared President Leck Kaczynski's presence would overshadow a similar event hosted by the Russian prime minister a few days before.

And their alleged plan ended in disaster when the Polish pilots made one final and disastrous attempt to land, killing Mr Kaczynski, his wife, and 94 others on board the plane.

'One version of events says that the plane approached the airport four times, because every time the Russians refused it permission to land - they wanted to send the plane with the president to an airport in Moscow or Minsk,' Mr Gorski claimed in an interview published in the newspaper Nasz Dziennik.

'They came up with some dubious reasons: that there was fog over the airport, and that the navigation system didn't work as it was under renovation, and that airport had a short landing strip.'

The claims were made as shocking new details emerged of the final minutes of the flight before it crashed into a Russian forest on Saturday morning.

 

[Possibility of Being]

Sorry for sayng this buy Artur Gorski is an idiot. That's it.

Here is the most probable explanation for the accident.

Lay of the land on the way to the Smolensk airport (the airport is on the right):

Another picture (the airport on the left):

Local pilots say that's well known (to them) trap and the reason for altimeters showing wrong data (hence too low position of the TU-154 while approaching the airport). Keep in mind that there was a thick fog at the time of landing.

It would be great if one of the Polish members with better English than mine could explain it based on posts on a Polish pilot's forum starting from this one. Otherwise I'll do my best later on.

That circumstance together with political games/ ambitions, many wrong decisions and very bad planning seem to be the causes that have led to the tragedy.

By the way, the amount of idiocy that's been said about the crash in the media is just unbelievable!