Positive Dissociation?

[Tigersoap]

I have to say that I find it very difficult to get into this flow state. It`s really hard work. How this pertains to Gurdjieff I have no idea!
When I draw I NEED to get in a somewhat dissociated state. The VERY LAST thing I need when drawing is my intellectual centre.
It`s important when conceptualising, but during actual drawing/painting the intellect/ratio is anathema. Drawing, as all creative work, osit, might be a kind of channeling. One may open a channel to ???, from where creative stuff gets channeled through one`s mind and then expressed through the filter of the person`s biography, mindset, believe systems/lack of etc

You exactly wrote what I am thinking too.
It's not something that I can control either, I am in "the zone" or I am not.
Trying to be creative on command is the craziest idea ever, try telling that to clients !!

I think that it might be some form of channeling indeed, but depending on the potential development or the orientation of the person, the artworks will take a different form, hence the either very negative or positive vibe you could feel or see ?
But some artworks that might appear negative might as well be talking about the reality as it is and the positive just keep pushing the same lies.
Context is king.

Check out this artist Hilma_af_Klint and her gallery over Here .
she was channeling messages with her group "the five", despite having a very Christian bent, the messages and the paintings are very interesting imho.

 

[Tigersoap]

Thinking of TV shows with family dynamics I'd say the serie "six feet under"which is all about life, death and everything in between.

Some movies that touched me and stuck to my mind :

"Into the wild"

It was great as well, gives a lot to think about the motivation of the character, how is family reacted to him leaving.

"The dead girl"

(The Dead Girl is a quintet of stories about seemingly unrelated people whose lives converge around the murder of a young woman (portrayed by Brittany Murphy). The characters in the film are linked not only by their connection to her murder, but also by the difficult hand that life has dealt them. The film scrutinizes their inner struggles to overcome or surrender to their misfortunes.)

"Things we lost in the fire"

(Grief, recovery, and human contact. Brian is a great guy - a sweet father, a good husband, and a loyal friend to his boyhood
pal Jerry who's a junkie.When tragedy strikes, Jerry tries to help Brian's wife and children cope, and Audrey, Brian's widow, tries to help Jerry kick the habit.)

"White Oleander"

(Astrid Magnussen is a 15 year old girl, living in California. Her mother, Ingrid, is a beautiful, free-spirited poet. Their life, though
unusual, is satisfying until one day, a man named Barry Kolker (that her mother refers to at first as "The goat man") comes into their lives, and Ingrid falls madly in love with him, only to have her heart broken, and her life ruined. For revenge, Ingrid murders Barry with the deadly poison of her favourite flower: The White Oleander.) - here the synopsis is very misleading because, the mother protrayed in the movie is 100% narcissistic and keep manipulating her daughter's life from the prison she is in.

"Monster's ball"

(Set in the Southern United States, 'Monster's Ball' is a tale of a racist white man, Hank, who falls in love with a black woman named Leticia. Ironically Hank is a prison guard working on Death Row who executed Leticia's husband. Hank and Leticia's interracial affair leads to confusion and new ideas for the two unlikely lovers.)

I am sure I forgot a lot but I don't know if they are especially positive but they made me engage emotionally and think a lot afterwards.

EDIT :

I remembered also "The fountain" and "Requiem for a dream"
I think that as long as there is human drama in the movie, book etc...It will touch me. The genre does not matter that much.

 

[ana]

Everything we do, we can do it conscious or unconsciously(different levels), and it is absolutely different seeing someone dancing/sculping/singing/drawing/talking consciously as an expression of essence/being and someone doing it busy letting the motor center act unconsciously, and the result is totally different, wasn’t Gurdjieff who talked of objective and subjective art.

I think that positive dissociation is not just mindlessly drifting out into nowhere, I think there is an active part involved but I suppose that can vary greatly in intensity osit.
I've never seen anyone perform objective art that I know of or I am probably unable to see the difference ?

While typing this MC wrote it better than I could put it in words, seems to make sense to me.

Hi Tigersoap,

I was not talking of positive dissociation, what I said was in response to your statement:

Maybe art involving drawing, sculpting and so on is like music or dancing, it involves your body and mind being busy at the same time but when your practice is good enough, you can just let the motor center take over while you drift away ?

Positive dissociation, as I see it has nothing to do with letting the motor center take over while you drift away but of get in contact with instinct and imagination as a way to expand the possibilities and choices of our current situation.

 

[seek10]

My chief form of usel ful disassociation is listening 'self made mp3 s from books' while driving, cooking, washing. I used Day dreaming as a means of imagining how it will be 'to be in a specific situation' or 'while talking to others', but often negative emotions fuel the imagination to unconscious energy drain.
Back to movies , I haven't seen many. of what I seen 'Matrix' , ''They live' , 'Gandhi' , 'V for vendetta' I liked them. 'X-files' scared hell out of me and kicked my emotions to roof top, but I saw them as if I read laura's old adbuction series and found to be like 'connecting the dots' in understanding. I saw harry potter series as if it is counter action to the negative horror movies.

 

[seek10]

I have to say I didn't see many movies or TV series and didn't read many Novels to comment. Almost
most of them are in indian languages.

Of the 2 or 3 years i read novels I liked some telugu novels by couple
of authors who choose a topic and live in that specific world to mix
that hard unaccepted harsh truths into characters for public
consumption. I used to love his novels like the way I like laura's.
some of the topics on which they have novels are horse racing , world
of modelling , paranormal interlaced with science etc.

As for the TV series is concerned , the things that comes to my mind is
malgudi days series.

I used to like movies of one director called K.Vishwanath
. The greatest part of
this guy is a nice family setting in rural paddy rich , greenish
villages with flowing rivers with wonderful music ( very soothing slow
typical indian classical music) with more or less the local landlord
trying to do the horrors which indian woman are subjected to and the
oppressed turn against the landlord. One of the themes this director
is he takes the dying art or music or dance as the background theme of
the plot and he brings life to the art. When I was reading 'Beelzebub's
Tales to His Grandson', It
remainded me how the some good habits or concepts he talked still
lived in india until 20 years back. I am not sure of them now.

Recently I signed up for Netflix with a hope to see the movies when
ever I slip into the sauna. that is very convienant and huge titles to
select from and able to watch instantly, though I doesn't have much interest other than
documentaries( as of now).

 

[Tigersoap]

Maybe art involving drawing, sculpting and so on is like music or dancing, it involves your body and mind being busy at the same time but when your practice is good enough, you can just let the motor center take over while you drift away ?

Positive dissociation, as I see it has nothing to do with letting the motor center take over while you drift away but of get in contact with instinct and imagination as a way to expand the possibilities and choices of our current situation.

Hi Ana,

I expressed myself inadequately I am afraid.
It's maybe not correct if you just read a book because it's more passive. It may depends on the individuals ?

To me an active positive dissociation would be like a great pianist for example, his well crafted technique and training would allow him to let the motor center do his job (because his body remembers how to play) while freeing energy for his intellectual and emotional center to be more open to the higher centers thus allowing more creativity or soul to be expressed osit.
Once you reach a certain technique your other centers aren't as drained because until then you had to learn how to do "the thing".

Hope this clarifies what I meant to express.
I could be wrong on how I see this though.

 

[Breton]

I want reality! My SOUL cries out for objectivity! I want the lights turned up bright!
And then you bring up willful use of imagination? Dissociation? Arrrrghhh!<snip>

<snip>...we not only need to face up to it, we also need to find some way to give the physiology/lower emotional center some relief.
Okay, we see what they are doing: utilizing a characteristic of humanity to put them in a certain state with addictive entertainment and then, VERY subtly - oh, so carefully - twisting ideas and values and meaning so that gradually, over time, you don't really know what is good and decent a truly creative/STO and what is not.

So, my question relates more directly to: Okay, we know that we have this need to get relief, let's figure out how BEST to utilize it to undo the damage that is being done.
<snip>

Thanks and its' clear:
Yes, thank you Laura, your full post is a very concise way of putting how we probably should approach the whole idea of the use of imagination and dissociation.

This use of imagination and dissociation is not evil in itself, but has a history of being used for "nefarious purposes" (to borrow the way the C's put it in Session 13 September 2009).

So I have to admit that when I read the transcripts, and saw this thread, something about this idea frightened me. It frightened me to think about purposely playing in this area that had been used negatively against humanity, and it was an area that I developed bad habits in. Therefore my knee-jerk reaction was that I was hesitant to go back to it. However to eliminate an important tool because it has been abused is to "throw the baby out with the bathwater" and therefore not wise.

STS VS STO ways:
Another thought: there might be an important difference between the STO and STS approach to this: the STS (Service to Self, the dark side) way is to manipulate other people's subconscious without telling them, without their consent.

On the other hand, in what (I imagine to be) an STO way, a statement could be always provided that explains what the motivation behind the activity is along with how it works to the best of one's knowledge.

That would be a big difference! :)

You continue to amaze me:
Let me add one more thing Laura to what you revealed:

I have been spending some concentrated time of gathering every single detail about that 20,000 year period of "peace" that I can, emptying my mind of assumptions, and really trying to connect with those minds back then to figure out what they saw, what they felt, how they interacted with one another. A big part of this has been studying the cave art - and a lot of other prehistoric art - and making connections between certain archaeological evidence of the arrival of psychopathy and the change in art style and substance and ability.

All I can say is wow!
[I wish I could help!]

_Breton_

PS:
Sorry about the melodrama when I said I was angry, but it showed that the topic touched a nerve (of fear) as Lúthien suggested.

 

[truth seeker]

So, my question relates more directly to: Okay, we know that we have this need to get relief, let's figure out how BEST to utilize it to undo the damage that is being done.

The problem is - as with everything else on this god-forsaken planet - we have been under this influence literally for thousands of years and how the heck are we going to be able to really identify what is good and decent with the way we think, with what we are familiar with, with all the lies our heads are full of?

I think it basically comes down to knowledge. If we have the tools along with a constantly changing and expanding knowledge base, I think it makes us better able to discern lies from truth. It would come down to each person discerning the information for themselves and then perhaps networking with others to bounce ideas off each other. I look at most forms of entertainment differently than some people. I find myself constantly questioning what information is being presented. Once this muscle is being used, it becomes stronger with practice and I find it a little easier to see through the veil.

Perhaps the problem that mainly arises is when people aren't thinking about what's being presented to them and readily accept it. In my opinion, they then become a kind of prisoner to whatever is being served and they then become "food" because the higher centers aren't being accessed if that makes any sense. If someone is being used as food in this manner, they are then depleted and continue to seek the same messages that uphold their world view and the cycle continues.

Two people can experience the same event and come away with two very different interpretations (for an example, think of a situation that occurred in your family and you will find as many interpretations as there are people). So I don't think it's only what action is occurring, but the view of the individual.

By RedFox
If that is so....perhaps then disassociation is related to Be my daily bread? A feeding/growth of the soul perhaps?? Negative dissociation being the junk food of the soul?

Funny you should mention the prayer. I was thinking along those same lines myself last night. Specifically the "be my daily bread..." and "the holiness of all creation" lines. It made me consider the prayer in a whole new way. Perhaps the negative dissociation relates to STS feeding off each other and positive dissociation relates to STO being fed by each other.

 

[ana]

So, my question relates more directly to: Okay, we know that we have this need to get relief, let's figure out how BEST to utilize it to undo the damage that is being done.

The problem is - as with everything else on this god-forsaken planet - we have been under this influence literally for thousands of years and how the heck are we going to be able to really identify what is good and decent with the way we think, with what we are familiar with, with all the lies our heads are full of?

This has been really brought home with the "Creating a New World" thread. We actually know almost nothing about how to live in an STO world... not only do we not know, many of us are incapable of even imagining. I noticed all kinds of odd, selfish, self-centered, jealousy based, little imps popping up over on that thread. It's even more interesting since I have been spending some concentrated time of gathering every single detail about that 20,000 year period of "peace" that I can, emptying my mind of assumptions, and really trying to connect with those minds back then to figure out what they saw, what they felt, how they interacted with one another. A big part of this has been studying the cave art - and a lot of other prehistoric art - and making connections between certain archaeological evidence of the arrival of psychopathy and the change in art style and substance and ability.

I hope that gives a little background.

The metaphysical Principle of Correspondence says: As above so below, as below so above, wich suggests that the top and the bottom, Heaven and Earth can be joined in harmony.
That is as I see it the intrinsic capability of the shaman, the shaman is the nexus between those two forms of existence and for him/her both deserve attention as they mutually affect each other.
The shaman is able to resist the awesome power of the creative force within himself while carefully and consciously is trying to apply it in every situation.


A 20,000 year period of peace, was possible if shamans were working with this purpose, if they surrendered totally to this purpose, because in that case everything changes, a few if consciusly can change everything and nothing can stop them.

I think the root of pathology lies in ignorance, ignorance prevents an individual meet their evolving/instinctive needs (make them conscious), and then they manifest as basic instinct needs (work of lower centers). In this case everything individuals do is intended to self preservation and self gratification at diferent levels.
Maybe the task of shamans in those times was to provide knowledge (choices), being guides, living examples, showing what to evolve, learn and live can be, this would feed the natural evolving needs of beings, stimulating their awareness allowing higher centers begin to work, and obviously it would change everything, then of course war would be meaningless.

If we look at present, where are those examples?

 

[Laura]

Check out this artist Hilma_af_Klint and her gallery over Here .
she was channeling messages with her group "the five", despite having a very Christian bent, the messages and the paintings are very interesting imho.

Sorry, I'm not impressed. If these were done by children trying to represent their dreams as a form of therapy, they might be psychologically interesting, but as something that inspires one... naaah. Not even close.

 

[Mountain Crown]

I suspect some insidious programming relating to the use of cartoons.

I keep thinking of this; I'm a baby boomer, the generation first raised with TV as a baby sitter and the first to be influenced by animation. The pioneers (Fleischer, Disney, Schlesinger, Avery) saw the new medium as an opportunity to "give life" to ordinarily inanimate things, and for anthropomorphism. The implications of this is thought provoking, the animator's ability to project a perspective on to anything and everything bypasses the objective construct of reality; it's a powerful portal to the subconscious.

And what were we given?

Bugs Bunny was a psychopath. . . Think about it.

 

[Thomas Alan]

Thanks, Laura for another helpful thread.

I rarely watch TV. My wife has is it on in the evening sometimes. The small bits
that I catch walking by are either inane or mean spirited. Even the cartoons
depict violence and anger.

I enjoy seeing Shakespeare's plays performed. The language is so rich it's a joy
to hear. The characters are always flawed in some way, but they usually are
introspective sharing the inner most thinking with the audience.

Some of the older movies are good. The characters being portrayed are the same
as today. Detectives, cops, robbers, good guys, bad guys. But in the older films
the characters seem more grown up somehow, more truly adult than in current
films. Bogart movies are a good example of the this.

A walk in the woods or open fields helps me disassociate in a positive way.
There is a wilderness area not far away. There is an abandon railroad bridge
that crosses a creek. Just below the bridge is a rapids, a rocky area a bit
unusual in this land of muddy creeks. I love to stand on the bridge and listen
to the rushing water, thinking about nothing at all.

Mac

 

[Tigersoap]

Sorry, I'm not impressed. If these were done by children trying to represent their dreams as a form of therapy, they might be psychologically interesting, but as something that inspires one... naaah. Not even close.

Ah no problem with that, it's good to have your input on this.
Do you have, if you have the time, any exemple that could inspire one ?
I am really struggling to find what could be represented in such art ?

The only thing I can think of is perhaps the alchemical drawings but as their meaning are often hidden from plain sight for the neophyte it may not qualify as inspiring. I really don't know.

 

[Thomas Alan]

There is a book that I have used for disassociation for many years and I still
not sure what attracts me to it. I first read it circa 1958 when I was 12. Over
the years I have read it perhaps 20 times. the world it depicts is still
compelling in many ways.

A Canticle for Leibowitz by Walter M Miller.

The tale begins 600 years after a horrific nuclear war that nearly wiped out
humanity and sent civilization into the darkest of ages.
A community of monks is dedicated to preserving the remnants of the dead culture
for a possible future that may be interested. The monks copy and illuminate
scraps of books and circuit designs. A monk might spend a life time copying and
decorating with gold leaf the a schematic of a radio circuit having no idea what
was illustrated or it's use.

Maybe it shows what my life as a kid was like that such a terrifying fictional
world could be seen by me as a place to escape to.
Or the intuitive sense that civilization is temporary or perhaps even cyclical.
Or of humanity moved by forces beyond it's comprehension.

Mac

 

[Thomas Alan]

There is a book that I have used for disassociation for many years and I still
not sure what attracts me to it.

ENCARTA

"disassociation or dissociation

Both these words, and the verbs (disassociate, dissociate) from which they come,
share the meaning "separation from a relationship with another," and in this
sense they are interchangeable: sought disassociation/dissociation from the
scandal;sought to dissociate/disassociate themselves from the
scandal.Dissociation, however, does have two senses not shared by
disassociation: in psychology and psychiatry, "separation of emotions as a
defense mechanism" and in chemistry, "the breaking up of a molecule into simpler
components." Do not confuse the two words."

Hmmm, Important distinction. I need to read more closely.

Mac