Programming is complete

Did the lizard project fail? Are they gone.

  • Yes

    Votes: 2 9.5%
  • No

    Votes: 19 90.5%

  • Total voters
    21
  • Poll closed .

gnosisxsophia

Jedi Master
Two videos with Paul Bloom to think and rethink about empathy:
And

Thanks for posting Zak,

Observation and experience makes me lean towards the role of empathy 'being the gateway' to compassionate behaviour and therefore not so much of a 'negative' trait ?

However I did like the important addition of 'action' (in defining compassion) as I'd never thought to separate the two so distinctly.

Notable too, his statements re: empathy's susceptibility to bias and facility for weaponisation ....

Cheers

J
 

gnosisxsophia

Jedi Master
Yes, I think it hurts sometimes to have empathy but maybe it is part of knowing whether or not you may have a soul.

Hi goyacobol,

I see you posted while I was fumbling around.....looks like we're on the same wavelength again :-)


And in the latest session they indicate that empathy does take a toll on "individuation" (maybe we become more tribal?):

Hadn't thought of it that way either, very astute I suspect?


(L) Well, I think that obviously "tribal" means physiological spiritual union profile...Am I correct here about a tribal group being like a soul group? Is that an accurate way of putting it?

A: Very close.

;-)
 
And in the latest session they indicate that empathy does take a toll on "individuation" (maybe we become more tribal?):
That is not a proper derivation of their statement. Their specific sentence was:
A: High empathy plus lies tend to diminish the individuated soul.

High empathy. Plus lies. That is very different than saying that empathy takes a toll on individuation. Empathy may be needed in most (if not all) cases of beings aligning themselves with the decision to endure conscious suffering as necessary to sustain the STO-candidate path. Their statement empathy plus lies is quite clear, after all. The problem is not high empathy, but excess empathy, empathy unregulated by the crystallization of character, the integration that cannot happen in the context of self-calming lies.

My 2 cents.
 

goyacobol

The Living Force
FOTCM Member
That is not a proper derivation of their statement. Their specific sentence was:
A: High empathy plus lies tend to diminish the individuated soul.

High empathy. Plus lies. That is very different than saying that empathy takes a toll on individuation. Empathy may be needed in most (if not all) cases of beings aligning themselves with the decision to endure conscious suffering as necessary to sustain the STO-candidate path. Their statement empathy plus lies is quite clear, after all. The problem is not high empathy, but excess empathy, empathy unregulated by the crystallization of character, the integration that cannot happen in the context of self-calming lies.

My 2 cents.
That is a good observation United Gnosis. The "lies" part is something I noticed. I just can't say whether being affected by lies from external sources or internal lies to the self negates the likelihood that we may become moved by empathy to recognize our tribal/group relationships.

It makes sense that lies from any source probably would "diminish the individuated soul" but having less self-centered empathetic emotions I think would also alone contribute to a more tribal/group awareness.

I don't know if my "derivation" is "proper" or not. I am sure my "derivation" is not nearly as comprehensive and intelligent as that made by Laura on July 11, 2012:

Re: 26 November 1994

OrangeScorpion said:
Thanks for sharing the session.

Reading this session, I found confusion. On one hand I have to feel and assimilate my negative emotions to see reality as it is ... On the other hand, there are implants (SethianSeth relates it to the negative introspection, I think rightly) and one must reject these negative feelings because they are programs and buffers that are not part of our true nature ... You should feel good and ignore these negative emotions and thus avoid being food for STS forces.

I reread the thread “negative introject” and I have found a Laura's comment the key to this.

But do not think that it is not important to have "negative emotions." That is NOT the point here. The point is that they must accurately represent the reality HERE and NOW, and not be a PROGRAM or a BUFFER.
Click to expand...
Ok, I understand. If a negative emotion is the result of seeing reality as it is in the HERE and NOW then I must assimilate it and not "hide it under the rug"...

And this is the problem, the difference between one genuine negative emotion and other that is the result of an implant, negative introspection, buffer or whatever....

Here is where one get lost...
Click to expand...
The trick is that after you have been practicing giving each thing its due, experiencing negative emotions and understanding them, after awhile, you stop having them. This is explicitly described in Mouravieff's gnosis.

Let me try to explain it from a different angle, the angle of Empathy.

Jean Decety, a scientist at the University of Chicago, has broken down empathy into four components.

1) The ability to share someone else's emotions.
2) Awareness of yourself and of other people - and knowledge of where you "end" and the others "begin", i.e. appropriate boundaries.
3) The mental capacity to set your own perspective aside and to view things from the perspective of another.
4) The ability to consciously control your own emotions.

Decety tells us that empathy is formed by combinations of all four of these components. If any one of the components isn't kicking in either because of genetics or dysfunctional thought patterns, i.e. programs, selfish emotional reactions, being around people who manipulate reactions out of you under false pretenses, stress, etc., one's "empathy" can be all wrong. When you are empathizing with the wrong people or situations for the wrong reasons, your behavior can deteriorate and you lose your ability to interact with others in a healthy way. One of these unhealthy ways of experiencing empathy is to have too much - to be unable to separate yourself from another, to not know the boundaries of your own feelings and desires.

Another point is that it is possible to turn empathy on and off as has been studied by neuroscientist Yawei Cheng. Cheng realized that it would not be possible for truly empathic doctors, nurses, and other health care persons to go through their jobs every day if they felt the personal distress that normal people feel every time they see another person in distress (for that work, see studies on mirror neurons). So, some studies were done. It seems that the brains of individuals who work in health care react very differently to seeing situations that, in others, would make the mirror neurons jump like crazy. What happened was that a part of the brain retrieved a memory that triggered the brain's command central to shut down the ability to empathize with someone else's pain. At the same time, it increased the signal to the part of the brain that makes us aware that someone else is just that: someone else, not the self. The brain was amping up the part that says: that's somebody else, not you! Fuggedaboutit!

Obviously, doing this very often can have repercussions.

What this suggests is that people who have to deal with suffering each and every day (assuming they aren't sadistic psychopaths to begin with) somehow learn to disconnect their personal emotions when they are undesirable and could interfere with efficient functioning. The one-two action of dampening emotions and ramping up the separate-person-signals makes this possible. Interestingly, it is the right frontoparietal network that permits us to distinguish ourselves from others. Lesions or low/absent functioning in this part of the brain is associated with psychopathy. Possibly, creating imprinted circuits that repeatedly shut down emotions could permanently affect this part of the brain and could even effect epigenetic changes on future children.

Obviously, people in the caring professions who are in them because they actually care, obviously don't go to some sort of school to teach themselves how to damp their emotions and amplify the perceptions of boundaries; they sort of learn it by trial and error, by exposure, by experience, sort of like blinking. But this can be a tricky thing because without awareness, one can turn off empathy entirely...

However, having said all that, the ability to be able to exert top-down control over bottom-up emotional swarms is crucial to those individuals who seek to be of service to others. Being the driver of your carriage means that other people's moods and emotions do not control your moods and emotions. So, what to do?

There are two basic ways of reacting to the suffering of others:

1) Empathic distress. Empathic distress is the natural response of most empathic people. This can lead to two outcomes:
a) Feeling guilty if we try to avoid or abandon the hurt person.
b) Being overwhelmed ourselves and burning out which means we only hurt ourselves and do not help the other person. This is why care-givers train themselves to turn off the empathy which can have way more severe consequences including increasing callousness, emotional exhaustion, depression, etc.

2) Empathic Concern: transforming empathic reactions to compassion which leads to action. That is, you can learn to immerse yourself in the pain of others for the purpose of being galvanized to action.

Now, have a look at this:
Compassion Meditation May Be Key to Better Caregiving -- Sott.net

Empathy is the faculty to resonate with the feelings of others. When we meet someone who is joyful, we smile. When we witness someone in pain, we suffer in resonance with his or her suffering. Neuroscience has proven that similar areas of the brain are activated both in the person who suffers and in the one who feels empathy. Thus empathic suffering is a true experience of suffering.

When some empathic caregivers are exposed to others' suffering day after day, their continuous partaking in this suffering might become overwhelming and can lead to burnout. Other caregivers may react by shutting down their empathic feeling and drawing an emotional curtain between themselves and their patients. Both these reactions are far from optimal.

Could mind training and meditation on altruistic love and compassion serve as an antidote to burnout? An example of this is the caregiver who naturally displays overflowing kindness and warmth toward his patients and does not experience any burnout.

Experienced Buddhist meditators have reported that when they focused for some time on what they called "stand-alone empathy" (visualizing intense suffering affecting someone else and resonating empathically with that suffering) without allowing compassion and altruistic love to grow in their minds, they soon experienced burnout.

However, when they added a powerful feeling of unconditional love and compassion, the negative, distressing aspects of empathy disappeared and were replaced by compassionate courage and a resolve to do whatever they could to soothe others' suffering. It would therefore seems that there is no such thing as "compassion fatigue," as burnout is often called, but only an "empathy fatigue" that can be remedied by cultivating compassion.

Neuroscientist Tania Singer, in collaboration with such meditators, is planning to train caregivers in cultivating loving-kindness in a secular way based on Buddhist techniques. This would to allow caregivers, nurses, and doctors to continue to offer altruistic services to those in pain without themselves suffering from empathic distress.
Click to expand...
That is one of the things that the SOTT editors work with every day: being able to view horror and suffering repeatedly, and having something of an outlet to actually work on doing something about it.

What happens then, after awhile is that compassion for the cosmos at large grows and while there is no stemming of the flow of love and compassion, it just simply becomes harder and harder for things out there to trigger negative emotions within.

(See: "The Cognitive Neuropsychology of Empathy" in "Empathy in Mental Illness, edited by Tom F.D. Farrow and Peter W. R. Woodruff - 2007 - Cambridge University Press)
I am leaning towards the idea that empathy is the necessary prerequisite to true compassion which results in some form of action to alleviate the suffering of others. Since we are dealing with so much programming and the stress from it we are probably all going to have some battle scars from dealing with observing "reality right and left" if we have empathy. Hopefully we can do better to find ways to put some love and compassion with our empathy that results in actions that may alleviate the suffering for at least some.
 

zak

Jedi Council Member
When i posted the two videos of Paul Bloom, i didn't think too much about the titles, and they are pretty provocatives.
The same for the main title of his book:" Against Empathy" an in sub-title "the case for rational compassion".
I thought more about the empathy can be hijacked and weaponised and used at our expenses, than empathy versus compassion or
others things, at some extend P.Bloom wanted to go. As not reading his book, here a one star comment from Amazon's reader:
Bloom attempts to make a case for using logical reasoning when making moral judgments, versus using empathy, which he defines as feeling what others feel. Yet there is a lot of faulty logic in the book, including, the reliance on more than one definition of empathy without openly clarifying their different meanings and implications. Another issue is the use of anecdotal evidence such as emotionally compelling stories to make his argument, rather than a careful consideration of the research evidence. When he does review the evidence, he often interprets it in an inaccurate way. For example, he cites a study saying that empathy leads to more aggression. But the actual study found that this was only true for people who had a certain type of gene, and only in certain situations. That same study found that empathy led to less aggression for people with a different gene and in different situations. And that study was not about empathy as he defined it (feeling what others feel), but about empathic concern (aka compassion), which Bloom repeatedly says he supports in this book. Save your money and time, and start with Batson's book, Altruism in Human Behavior, for a more carefully reasoned perspective.
https://www.amazon.com/Against-Empathy-Case-Rational-Compassion/dp/0062339338/ref=cm_cr_arp_d_product_top?ie=UTF8

I am still on the important set of books giving by Laura, taking a break these last days with "Behave" of Robert Sapolsky, and "I Contain Multitudes"(The microbes within us and a grander view of life). Having always in mind this quote of Laura:
"Being attentive to "negative" forces does NOT make them stronger, as long as the intention is to weaken them. And one can only learn to "weaken" darkness by learning what they ARE exactly.
It is about, as we have already said, learning to identify our reality through HIS symbols, and giving EVERYTHING its "due".
On the other hand, focusing on "love" and light" can in some cases be a sign of a secret "fear" of darkness. This fear will then attract unpleasant experiences and events into the person's life. Only knowledge can exorcise this fear."
goyacobol:
I am leaning towards the idea that empathy is the necessary prerequisite to true compassion which results in some form of action to alleviate the suffering of others. Since we are dealing with so much programming and the stress from it we are probably all going to have some battle scars from dealing with observing "reality right and left" if we have empathy. Hopefully we can do better to find ways to put some love and compassion with our empathy that results in actions that may alleviate the suffering for at least some.
And, something that can help us in this path is to understand our machine and the machine of "others".
Before the death of my big brother, i read "The Strange order of Things" of Antonio Damasio there 's five months ago, after his death
i felt and lived that suffering is not "enough" to help yourself and then the others, i have to give a step more to the service of others.
Because for what we are suffering? Why? When?How?...?

There are two basic ways of reacting to the suffering of others:

1) Empathic distress. Empathic distress is the natural response of most empathic people. This can lead to two outcomes:
a) Feeling guilty if we try to avoid or abandon the hurt person.
b) Being overwhelmed ourselves and burning out which means we only hurt ourselves and do not help the other person. This is why care-givers train themselves to turn off the empathy which can have way more severe consequences including increasing callousness, emotional exhaustion, depression, etc.

2) Empathic Concern: transforming empathic reactions to compassion which leads to action. That is, you can learn to immerse yourself in the pain of others for the purpose of being galvanized to action.
In following your link goyacobol, i found some stuffs:
https://www.physiology.org/doi/full/10.1152/jn.00487.2010
The anatomy of empathy: Vicarious experience and disorders of social cognition - ScienceDirect
Area of the brain that processes empathy identified
https://www.researchgate.net/publication/6841239/download
http://portal.idc.ac.il/en/symposium/herzliyasymposium/documents/dcbatson.pdf
 

bjorn

The Living Force
FOTCM Member
And in the latest session they indicate that empathy does take a toll on "individuation" (maybe we become more tribal?):
I guess that ‘diminishes individuation’ in this context means that you become less of a persona based on your own wishes and desires and instead become more concerned with the struggles and pain of others (High Empathy) and how to help others with their lessons in order to alleviate their suffering, if is is appropriate to do so of course. Or as Artemis mentioned during that session, ''If you have higher empathy, you have a higher sense of responsibility.'' That said, we first with support of a network have to learn those lessons ourselves.

So yes it should make one naturally more tribal I think.

- As to the following session you brought up goyacobol:

(Galatea) Do the Cs suffer?

A: Not as you understand it, but in empathy only.

Q: (L) I think I remember ya'll saying that when we suffer, you suffer. Is that it?

A: Yes
STO= no concern of the Self. So yes, they only suffer when others suffer.

Thinking about it further, I suppose that suffering only stops when everyone has become One. (7D) That’s why it’s natural function of 6STO to work towards Union with the One. It’s done out of ''divine caring'', for a lack of a better word.

If everyone in creation has learned their lessons, we only be concerned with others. Thing is, everyone has learned their lessons. So nobody would be suffering anymore based on their own desires or faulty thinking. I Guess that’s why in 7D things will be fine and dandy in a very deep sense. (Again, I can’t find the right words to describe such a state)

At some point when we have learned, ‘’It just is’’ but in the meantime, ‘’here we are’’ Hopefully I didn't go off-track to much.
 
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goyacobol

The Living Force
FOTCM Member
I thought more about the empathy can be hijacked and weaponised and used at our expenses, than empathy versus compassion or
others things, at some extend P.Bloom wanted to go
Thanks for posting the videos. I think Bloom did have some good points about the different aspects of empathy and maybe tried to come up with his own solutions to what he saw as empathy out of balance. I think Laura's comments on empathy covered most of what he was talking about from a broader perspective.

I guess that ‘diminishes individuation’ in this context means that you become less of a persona based on your own wishes and desires and instead become more concerned with the struggles and pain of others (High Empathy) and how to help others with their lessons in order to alleviate their suffering, if is is appropriate to do so of course. Or as Artemis mentioned during that session, ''If you have higher empathy, you have a higher sense of responsibility.'' That said, we first with support of a network have to learn those lessons ourselves.
A: High empathy plus lies tend to diminish the individuated soul.
The Cs didn't specify what kind of "lies" so maybe that was by design to get us to think a little deeper about empathy.

When they say "plus" I am not sure if they mean "and", "as well as", "including", "together with" etc... I don't think it is necessarily a mathematical formula such as empathy + lies = diminished individuated soul.

There so many lies these days and so many sources that I just took it in a general sense. The self-delusional lies are in the mix but
there are those other "lies" to contend with too, like MSM and "Fake News". I think there is another kind of lying that is more difficult to perceive and detect and that is the psychopathic mimicking of empathy. The "programming is complete" but the consequences of all these years of mimicked empathy are still being played out which divides and weakens us. Will we develop "true empathy", I don't know but the Cs did talk about "true empathy" here:

Session 10 May 2014:
Q: (L) Can anybody think of another question to get me where I want to go here? (shellycheval) As individuals, what's the single most important thing we should do to Do, and to not try, but to actually take actions? What can we do to motivate ourselves as individuals? Is there something we can say or do...?

A: Service to others. Notice that the people with the most problems that always talk only about themselves and their troubles, are the ones who do and give the least. They do not have confidence in the universal law of LIFE: Get things moving and you create a vacuum in your life into which energy can flow.

Q: (L) So, basically what you're saying is that people should think of it as a kind of a law that when you... maybe like the old biblical expression: "Cast your bread on the waters, and after many days, it will return to you" sort of thing? Just do it, and keep doing it without anticipation?

A: Absolutely! And it is true and works. Just notice people who do and give a lot: Are they spending time focused on the self? No!

Q: (L) Yeah, but everybody's got wounds and issues and all that kind of thing to work on. I mean...

A: [letters come very quickly] Balance! A portion of a day can be spent on reflection, but not too much. This is the Wetiko Virus: obsession with the self and subjective personal issues. The next time you feel yourself slipping into despair, just tell others how you are feeling and think of something you can do for another to prevent them from suffering the same feelings. [letters come more slowly now:] Thus you will witness the birth of true empathy.
It seems most of the "programming" has created a world of self-centered individuals, ideologies and causes to support them to the max. Selfies anyone? :huh:
 

realitybugll

Jedi Council Member
the crystals perhaps were an experiment in belief. So a subjective phenomena for all. To fear the reptilians is an indication of empathy. But also to fear them for a belief that you could be special to be worth visiting. the Wave documents such visitations. I almost never worried or was concerned for myself yet accepting this reality because I never envisioned the capability of myself to do something. What could one expect to do with such dangerous knowledge, how could than translate into a doing.

Why do we accept there was a programming or do we? A belief could be a projected fear. but would it hold. I think one of empathy a belief out of compassion is better. belief is subjective in construction, to ask and to receive indicates a likely belief in something from somewhere.
 

realitybugll

Jedi Council Member
If belief is subjective, maybe prophesy or surely, prophesy is objective. Could one dispute a prophet or say you don't believe that, a liar, but belief doesn't matter in the messenger: A Claim that earth will experience a cataclysmic event say the year 2030. NO. because an object has a trajectory subject to physics. I think a well funded organization exploring space, NASA could maybe know this with certainty. lets try and find a way it could be false. The reptilians! they could move it! It could be shot down. We need grasp of the kinetic energy of such a body. celestial bodies or whatever comets asteroids, planets out of wack are 3rd density. humans could hit it, but by the time it becomes very certain it's to late to launch anything of a magnitude close enough into space to make it far enough. I believe believe couldn't move a celestial body (in conclusion). But a prophecy of such event I would belief.

small ones I would allow. small enough not be detected. Greenland was hit, I think to deflect that was either a gamble or worse would be denial of a miracle. And didn't windows shatter in 1500 mile radius. So maybe one window of ice. okay maybe lots of ice shattered. the inverse of a snowball effect. I think if you eliminate snowball effect, random chance, you allow some greater unknown. How to preserve a reality of that necessary thing, if it was false, it would need to be preserved. That's the work of 4D. Ours is to content a snowball could start an avalanche. Or that a butterfly could destroy the world.
 

realitybugll

Jedi Council Member
why does trump hold the briefcase the nuclear codes why is it so literal and is it real. I think to take it would be an act of terror so great and evil that to even launch one rocket would over shadow that it was taken. It's a failsafe. I think perhaps its a proof china respects the right of a world leader to his mysterious suitcase. It had to have been taken seriously by the Chinese. Actions tell the truth. Maybe that was diplomacy. Stealing information more important than technology.

somehow there's enough belief in the power of one individual he could even wield that suitcase or whatever. probably the collapse of society however constructed or envisioned is a necessary belief something necessary to fear into order to appreciate the converse. I thought more and more people are becoming nutcases, seeing the end, the magnitude of belief could realize that belief. But I've changed my perspective. Its construction of the belief I think that counts. A belief is can be immediate want that produces chaos riots. A hurricane is currently displacing up to a million. Nothing to do with belief. But belief will help save lives. Belief in destruction. belief is subjective. That's kinetic energy on earth!
 

realitybugll

Jedi Council Member
Do the Cs suffer?

A: Not as you understand it, but in empathy only.

Let me make a bizarre argument. "programming complete". some logical description of suffering, a lack of contentedness. of course what is suffering, it's terrible, that's human association. belief from compassion, suffering from empathy. I'll say they suffer in lacking this ability. that would be a great suffering for a person to lack it, so in that way to us they suffer. It's a great answer. The C's are ruthless, a great torture from the beginning, promises of money of "help". No matter what you do it won't be enough. Do they feel emotion I belief not. reading emotion is dangerous. A letter at a time they dont even trust. I doubt they were ever corrupt just indicating a problem with letter reception. And information exchange was learned. And Laura had to constantly read, I find that interesting.

The trajectory of a rock is fixed. Everything being equal it will probably hit someone as that is why a rock would be thrown, or what better reason is there? But rocks just hitting rocks is more certain. And the larger the rocks the more certain as other forces, wind, lightning, tree falling, I don't know become inconsequential. I think everything operates under the fixed future of the inanimate. 2D 3D 4D 6D. But the C's are a very special stream they violate almost nothing, almost not there. Each use the inanimate. FOr the C's they worked around a supernova being very careful, kind of how we step around the physical day to day. Facebook made doors so clear that employees bashed their heads in. Maybe now the doors are walk through. Glass is a human manipulation. but no one goes out to break glass, as much as people go out of there way to look through it. but It hurts animals, glass perhaps is a violation of the stepping around of the inanimate. An invention that gave the inanimate power. So glass was a mistake but silver and gold brought civilization to life, even salt, so maybe its equal. 3D shapes the inanimate, moves it. 4D uses the moving. The C"s chose supernova or did the supernova bring them to life, or which way was it. And did they violate 4D with the inanimate. I think yes because they wanted it published and it got through.

After the session It dawned on me how clever these things are the 6D. Sorry this is written so unscientifically. I think its 80% noise 20% signal. and I violated my own rules. but this conversation beat all my expectations and now I have expectation.
 

realitybugll

Jedi Council Member
oh yeah psychopaths are inanimate thats why they must be stepped around and non-violatable as a comet in 2030. fixed things. but human. It's scary. inanimate animates
 

realitybugll

Jedi Council Member
I should also add they can be stepped on. But the C's couldn't contact one since it violates 3D and the inanimate. Well what is a psychopath compared to a supernova in magnitude. It could launch a nuke. And which helps which. One has never been abducted perhaps, but taken out by hurricanes plenty.
 

Aeneas

The Living Force
FOTCM Member
Sorry realitybuglle, but it sounds more like word salad to me. It doesn't make sense to me what you are writing, going from speculations on the C's, to Trump and the nuclear suitcase, beliefs, prophecies, comets, to musings on rocks and glass etc. It appears as if you are dotting down random thoughts that come into your head and posting it here. Try to read through what you have written, reflect on it and see if you can make sense of it yourself before posting it.
 

realitybugll

Jedi Council Member
Sorry realitybuglle, but it sounds more like word salad to me. It doesn't make sense to me what you are writing, going from speculations on the C's, to Trump and the nuclear suitcase, beliefs, prophecies, comets, to musings on rocks and glass etc. It appears as if you are dotting down random thoughts that come into your head and posting it here. Try to read through what you have written, reflect on it and see if you can make sense of it yourself before posting it.
Sorry realitybuglle, but it sounds more like word salad to me. It doesn't make sense to me what you are writing, going from speculations on the C's, to Trump and the nuclear suitcase, beliefs, prophecies, comets, to musings on rocks and glass etc. It appears as if you are dotting down random thoughts that come into your head and posting it here. Try to read through what you have written, reflect on it and see if you can make sense of it yourself before posting it.
I agree I can do much better. I have two concepts belief and violation. I say 1D inviolable. but its not just a rock its a hurricane or supernova. I say belief is constructed and same belief constructed different ways. I also say its subjective contrast with prophecy. but taken in aggregate ignoring the individual constructions it allows a briefcase etc.

It allows a delusion of a violation like two planes to demolish two towers. My guess is it is highly unpredictable the effects from what the majority or relevant majority can believe. 19 believe no. 2 said yes. It almost seemed like a closed debate. I can't believe the discussion it generated.
 
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