Laura said:
GroupConduit said:
None of us can be "totally sure" when speaking about the characteristics of 4th density, since we are not there yet!
Yes true, but in another context you already are there.
We are "there" the same way a dog is in 3 D. How much does a dog know about the life of a man? How many concepts of human suffering (emotional, mental) can a dog grasp?
Yes that is the context I was suggesting, I did not mean our current consciousness is aware of it.
GroupConduit said:
Presumably, once one has learned everything there is to know, and has completely dispensed with "lessons". The question is, why would you assume that lessons and learning would no longer be necessary at the 4th-density STO level?
I didnt asume there wouldnt be any need for lessons or learning, I simply said the concept suffering would not be viewed the same as it is in 3rd density as the knowledge and awareness acquired in 4th density would change the perspective we currently hold "reminds me of the story of joan of Ark how she experienced her suffering as pleasure as burned at the stake".
Laura said:
Sure, the concept of suffering might not be the same. A dog has a basic understanding of physical suffering WHILE he is suffering. He will even have a memory of it if it is bad as Pavlov's experiments show. Dog's even have a certain level of emotional suffering related to need. My dogs need affection and they suffer if they don't get attention. All this suggests is that some 2 D creatures are moving in the direction of experiencing emotional suffering which is something that humans begin to experience in a wide variety of ways as humans. Humans still experience the kinds of suffering that dogs experience, but more is added to it. But, humans also begin to perceive suffering in different ways, to combine learning from the frontal cortex to the reactions of the more primitive parts of the brain. In this way, they can experience "ecstasy" while suffering. In a sense, it is like being two people in the same body: the one that is suffering and another self. And that is available to even ordinary people in many cases. If, at moments of great shock/stress, a person simply connects with this higher part of the self (even having not "worked" on the self), they, too, can have this experience.
True difference between us and a dog is we can choose how we experience it.
Laura said:
The individual who has become fully conscious experiences still an added type of suffering: conscious and intentional suffering. At the same time, they also are capable of experiencing other higher emotions of joy and ecstasy that are not related to suffering. This would be an individual who is getting close to the "border" between 3D and 4D the same way a dog that is very close to its owner is getting ready to graduate to 3D.
But that dog getting ready to graduate still has no concepts of being human, only vague inklings. And the primitive human type has no concepts of the emotional pain and suffering of a higher type of man though certainly, he can translate physical suffering to an ecstatic experience. Gurdjieff actually gives an example of this type of suffering:
from ISOTM said:
"But it is necessary to understand that man's being, both in life and after death, if it does exist after death, may be very different in quality. The 'man-machine' with whom everything depends upon external influences, with whom everything happens, who is now one, the next moment another, and the next moment a third, has no future of any kind; he is buried and that is all. Dust returns to dust. This applies to him.
"In order to be able to speak of any kind of future life there must be a certain crystallization, a certain fusion of man's inner qualities, a certain independence of external influences. If there is anything in a man able to resist external influences, then this very thing itself may also be able to resist the death of the physical body.
"But think for yourselves what there is to withstand physical death in a man who faints or forgets everything when he cuts his finger? If there is anything in a man, it may survive; if there is nothing, then there is nothing to survive. But even if something survives, its future can be very varied. In certain cases of fuller crystallization what people call 'reincarnation' may be possible after death, and, in other cases, what people call 'existence on the other side.' In both cases it is the continuation of life in the 'astral body,' or with the help of the 'astral body.' You know what the expression 'astral body' means. But the systems with which you are acquainted and which use this expression state that all men have an 'astral body.' This is quite wrong.
"What may be called the 'astral body' is obtained by means of fusion, that is, by means of terribly hard inner work and struggle. Man is not born with it. And only very few men acquire an 'astral body.' If it is formed it may continue to live after the death of the physical body, and it may be born again in another physical body. This is 'reincarnation.' If it is not re-born, then, in the course of time, it also dies; it is not immortal but it can live long after the death of the physical body.
"Fusion, inner unity, is obtained by means of 'friction,' by the struggle between 'yes' and 'no' in man. If a man lives without inner struggle, if everything happens in him without opposition, if he goes wherever he is drawn or wherever the wind blows, he will remain such as he is.
"But if a struggle begins in him, and particularly if there is a definite line in this struggle, then, gradually, permanent traits begin to form themselves, he begins to 'crystallize.'
"But crystallization is possible on a right foundation and it is possible on a wrong foundation. 'Friction,' the struggle between 'yes' and 'no,' can easily take place on a wrong foundation. For instance, a fanatical belief in some or other idea, or the 'fear of sin,' can evoke a terribly intense struggle between 'yes' and 'no,' and a man may crystallize on these foundations. But this would be a wrong, incomplete crystallization. Such a man will not possess the possibility of further development. In order to make further development possible he must be melted down again, and this can be accomplished only through terrible suffering.
"Crystallization is possible on any foundation. Take for example a brigand, a really good, genuine brigand. I knew such brigands in the Caucasus. He will stand with a rifle behind a stone by the roadside for eight hours without stirring. Could you do this? All the time, mind you, a struggle is going on in him. He is thirsty and hot, and flies are biting him; but he stands still. Another is a monk; he is afraid of the devil; all night long he beats his head on the floor and prays. Thus crystallization is achieved.
"In such ways people can generate in themselves an enormous inner strength; they can endure torture; they can get what they want. This means that there is now in them something solid, something permanent. Such people can become immortal. But what is the good of it? A man of this kind becomes an 'immortal thing,' although a certain amount of consciousness is sometimes preserved in him. But even this, it must be remembered, occurs very rarely.
I personally thought that if one has a soul they also have the astral body from my understanding of it and what ive experienced while having conscious awareness during a dreamstate, is that the astral body occurs when we are sleeping or in deep trances I personal see astral body a construct of our mind call it a "thought form". I do not think all containers "bodys" contain souls either as I have witnessed entitys entering a body before and leaving.
Laura said:
Finally, let me ask you a question or two, Groupconduit: How old are you? What is your education and station in life? (Are you married, do you have children?) What esoteric studies have you undertaken?
27 in physical form, education is 16yrs of programming mind, gave up career in IT realised and this was before I discovered all I have that a job is a trap. Self taught myself once awakened. No children; choose to be single as at this time relationships are distraction from purpose and from what ive learned I dont want bring another soul into it, plus I do not nor have I at any point in my life fit in with this world not only can I see things others cant I can feel the very forces which physics call electromagnetism and can see what I like to call the unified field.
Universe is my teacher, research is required to a certain point but if one understands knowledge itself is already present as time itself is truely a illusion all that can be learned already is in exsistance within the self for the self is the realm then one can access that knowledge for the information is already contained within and expressed without in cosmos as what we call stars which are windows of cosmic data.
I am open to allowing universe the teach me through concidences which is how I originally found your website and others which was very interesting to see that the order in which I found it was the order in which you feel was preparation for what you had to share (have also read Ra material and bringers of dawn concidences also lead me to it before your site), I am open to using physical tools as you have also that which people call research but im more inclinded to use meditation as means of learning as it is less distorted than physical perceptions which are subjective and can be easily malipulated by forces which themself have also mastered understanding of the illusion of time.
I do not consider myself human because I do not see things the same nor do my memorys fit in at all with this reality I dont understand why humans worship money so much to me the concept is a usless idea that I only accept because it is a necessary evil and from universe has shown me those who love money will not like what it leads to. I enjoy the creativity of humanity but can not understand why creativity can not be the modervation for the work why must it be the acquisition of a symbol which in itself is a binder to control the public from seeing the truth of there situation.
I also dont pay much mind to the distractions of this worlds dramas in my understanding of what ive been shown they are purposely caused to distract ones mind and create specific emotional responses which sustain specific entity types, call it form of creating food if like. So I do not think it is important to spend my time looking for every drama in world but it does not mean I am not aware it is happening, I am aware of much as people would call it "evil" things happening and yes it angers me what is occuirng and saddens me that such suffering is accepted by this race if only mankind understood that suffering itself occurs if one allows it too that there situations and reason they suffer was because of the desire to experience the knowledge of good and evil.
I suffer because I care about the souls of this world call it awareness that all is connected sometimes I have felt the misery of this world even the planet which in itself is in it own experience but it shares it with the life which occupys it surface. I have seen things many would not be able to handle there is such evil in universe that people must learn about to become protected the evil is cunning and is not always what one thinks it should be like.
This is not only world which I have chosen to come in with risk of getting stuck myself and suffering nor is it only lifetime I have had on this world either I can not yet access all knowledge learned in previous incarnations but have been able to access parts I am shown by gravity which is what I have come to call God that when time is right it will be giving and to not to rush it some call these representations of God guides or higherself, adjusting to this worlds vibration frequecy has not been easy.
So in matter of esoteric understandings I have learned on many worlds in many dimensions in many levels of density I have known god and have been lucky enough to awaken to this in my life now I am not like any religionous follower on this world I legitually can say I know god and because of this I am well protected and I have had many attacks and even to point of physical manifestations of entitys which I call reapers you may have seen one yourself they appear as a floating darkness and can paralize you and then feed on you making you feel dread, I call them reapers because they are known to mark people and collect souls what humanity is yet to understand is the soul is a very precious gem it is sort after by many beings who seek power and must be protected.
There is attempts to lead me to self destruction because it is impossible for them to end my life they can not kill a soul who understands how timelines work how events effect outcome of possibility as futures manifest, they have tryed and have failed I as developed in life have been traumatised by humans groups physically harmed and emotionally scaring all through the process of develop we call childhood, I know now that the ones behind it may not have been in contorl of there actions it did not make sense to me what was occuring because I did not do anything to them the affect it had while I was still asleep so to speak made me as child agressive I had many fights and dark thoughts constantly are sent to me I must use my will power to deny them I know who is behind it now for have seen evidence of it I have witness what people call greys because there was a attempt to abduct me recently and I saw the being but it did not suceed because of awareness of how they operate.
This is not first time I have had conflict with what you call reptilians on this planet there has been times as well other worlds they have taken physical form and have had wars these events are hard to describe because it sounds like a movie script but as you probably aware magic is very real just forgotten knowledge which shall be resurrected soon. I once did get close as child to sucide but time stoped and a figure I assumed was christ said 'you have work to do it is not your time this worlds need you' moment later my dad by concidence comes in and breaks the tie i was trying to hang myself with. My life has been strange from moment of birth even as a 3 year old I could see strange beings of light and the same field I see now it stoped during my teenage years because I found it easier to deny it than accept it; were much suffering was experienced I still even now feel misplaced in this world and can not find anyone who is like myself.
I sometimes feel lost and are having difficultiy accepting humanitys way of perception I dont see point in limiting what is possible, all inventions of past have been by going against what society says is possible and finding a way through faith in oneselfs abilitys to do so, so why should we limit our mind to one way of perception.
I am also against any form of controling people wether it be malipulation or programing or to any other means I am very rebellious to point I will not accept the system people follow of this world because I know who is behind it and why and to do so is to bind myself to it which would serve no purpose since I am here to system break, im a thorn in there shoe so to speak I have awakened to why ive come and im now discovering the particulars of my assignment. Are you aware that one with the ability of mind can affect a reality by what known as anchoring Laura that is what some souls have come to do have you considered that the shift to come is connected to us?
One last thing I have had visions of both you and Ark before I saw your photo, I seen it as im meant to try learn something off you or make contact or you can assist me in some way to further awaken because I do have a vast amount of knowledge in me that I need asistance to remove blockages to bring it out. Your america miltary once tryed to recruit me for a secret project they offered to finance me and teach me the method known as remote viewing etc. But I was shown by gravity that there intentions were not good and so I choose to not move to america I did make prepartions too and was going to until circumstances occured which made it not good idea to go I am glad I did not now because america looks like it is going to fall apart.
I must ask you a question do you remember about the devices that we left on earth from around 6,000yrs ago, perhaps if you know about it, it may be best to speak about it privately.
well that small introducation to who I am I wasnt sure if I should hide my awareness and speak from this density only or just come out with what ive really gone through choose to reveal some of my personal life/awareness.
As you know Laura knowledge also must be protected, lest it be used by the wicked hence why the vijarden wont be taught publically something which people do not know about thou 'yeshua knows of it as did he know of reiki and the aurthurian secrets'.
