Role of Russia

I completely agree with you Siberia on that (below)! That's what differs Russians from the STS oriented west (in general). That is our greatest strength and the reason the western elite was and is afraid of us as the carriers of STO paradigm. Eternal conflict based on these opposing values.
In our case, imo, if these deeds you described were not done that appertained way, the Russians in mass would not understand and support our leadership. That is what our "chiefs" understand and use for their own benefit such as increasing electorate support.

"But the real strength of Russia is not in gold or weapons: it is in the Russian spirit, which is compassion and help. In case of emergency Russia always comes to help: with Ebola, floods, earthquakes, etc. Over a million Ukrainian refugees now reside in Russia, and they receive their shelter, food and other necessary aid. Ukrainian children now study in Russia free of charge. This is the role of Russia: to share knowledge, to help others, to unite people. And Russia is not alone on this path, many other nations actively participate. And the more people join in, the better future our planet may have. OSIT"

Siberia, next point concerning reserves. Buying US (issued by the government) obligations naturally means supporting their's economy. While our own economy is being deprived of much needed funds in order to invest them into the development (interests rates here for small and average business is unimaginable for developed countries- starting roughly from 15-20% a year. As for big corporations- the sanctions made them loose an "easy"/harmful opportunity to borrow from the western institutions what was done till this spring). You would not expect the Soviet government to even think to keep it's wallet in enemy's pocket. Remember De Gaulle's attempt to retrieve the French gold from US.

Seekintruth,
Taking your statement about Russian military. I do agree that our military shield, developed and build during Soviets, still deters western's wish to destroy our country with military force.
American report on Russian military capabilities - serves Pentagon primarily. Politically wise- they support the 'legend' they created themselves - that Russia is devil and has "teeth" to conquer neighbors and, oh god, even West as a whole. Another aim - to get largely increased funding for US and NATO army. Did not you know that identical tricks were used during Cold War? (Oh, Russians developed a new sub or a ICBM- we need to catch up and outclass them. "Poor" military businessman).
But our military industry suffers from bad management (as I have said that we are mostly dependent on cooperation with foreign countries, and the policies undertaken in 2000-2014 to return production lines here have failed-we stupidly had to wait for sanctions in order to start talking about imports replacement-which now in such a hostile and given economic environment would be much harder, won't it?). The former minister of defense A.Serdukov, whom I mentioned yesterday, was destroying army's structure, sacking most experienced officers and selling huge premises to his relatives and colleagues, liquidated famous military universities etc etc in period of 2007-2012. For his deeds he received by secret Putin's decree a highest Russian state award - Hero of Russia. He was dismissed only after the scale of corruption spilled over to the mass media. But he was saved from persecution thanks to his "great achievements" and now works in military industry! Great, is not it?!
I appreciate the intensified military drills - but in that amount they started after Crimean events.
I would also mind your tone. How do you evaluate it? Adequate? Being insulting is your style?

Kniall,
Thanks for your assessment. I understand who stands behind Hong Kong events. Incidentally I happened to be there in the end of September (unfortunately did not see that UFO sightseeing in person). Light version of Maidan. According to some analysts the timing coincided with the opening of Shanghai golden bourse, which conducts the transactions with physical gold, opposing NY's Comex that only sells golden 'air'.
I did not see the thread about Chavez, sorry. I really honored him for his personal qualities, leadership talents, electrifying charisma! My colleagues told me of that uplifting feeling that overwhelmed them in his presence.
Try to put the pieces of puzzle (contradicting facts) together - learning is fun! And no need to beat the poor dead horse:)

Perceval,
If we take an outside influence as the major factor of country's stability and prosperity, does it give a credit to it's leadership?!
 
Seekintruth,
Yep, you are correct on why I opened this thread in that section.
There are facts and it seems that it is you who is not willing to take even a glimpse at them, analyze and ask yourself reasonable questions. As I have said yesterday-picture may turn out to look completely different given the circumstances.
Also, imo, C's said nothing in particular about his motives, orientation - the necessary questions were not asked.
 
Little correction, Serdukov was awarded a Hero of Russia before the Medvedev/Putin back changeover in May 2012 (this fact is in mass media). Anyway, according to government regulation Prisident's decree must be signed (put a visa on it- for approval) by Prime minister before it lies on the table for signature.
 
Siberia said:
Read this interview today, which partly covers such attitudes as those of Antony's, and other issues discussed in this and related threads. Sorry about the quality of translation, it's mostly machine-made, just a bit edited, emphasis mine.

Thank you for the interview Siberia. It was very interesting to read. :)

Western Powers will not stop with their expansion plans. Next year Montenegro will join NATO.
 
Antony said:
Also, imo, C's said nothing in particular about his motives, orientation - the necessary questions were not asked.

The takeaway, as I see it, and what can be inferred from the transcripts below, is that Putin has had (and continues to spend) an inordinate amount of time and energy just thinking about and dealing with intelligence and threats from the West, just to give Russia the breathing room it requires to get out of the hole it was in due to Yeltsin, and the Western-supported oligarchs who were in the process of stripping the country bare before he stepped in. If you underestimate the enormous and complex undertaking this would have been for anyone, then you simply cannot appreciate how "good" (relatively speaking) Putin is or what he has, and is continuing to accomplish. It's soooo easy to throw rocks at someone else's work after all.

Session Date: July 16th 2007

Q: (A) I want to know what is the future of the present growing tension between the US and Putin?

A: Most of it is show, but there is also the fact that Putin is a smart man who is leading the tyrant into a trap.

Q: (L) I would say it's not so much because he's a good guy as it is because it's a power struggle.

A: Yes.

Q: (Ailén) Is Putin working with Chavez on that?

A: Sure.

Q: (L) Sure, he'll work with anybody. He's not a stupid man. He's WAY smarter than Bush. I think he's smarter than Sarkozy, and he's definitely smarter than Blair. He's got some neurons firing there.

Session Date: September 3rd 2008

(Ark) Is Putin a psychopath?

A: Now, now... That would be cheating!

Q: (L) I don't think he is. (S) I think he could still be evil, ya know, but of all the leaders I've ever heard or read about, he seems to say the most reasonable and truthful things. Which doesn't mean he isn't evil or hasn't done evil things, but in comparison to all the other ones... (L) When you're in that position, growing up in this world, how can you not be... But he's like the Diet Coke of Evil: Just one calorie. (Ark) When you want to show that you are not a psychopath, you have to say something completely different. (L) Well, Bush does it all the time, Bush is always saying those completely different things all the time too, but he doesn't have any action to back it up. I mean, he didn't do anything to break down the oligarchs in the US, and the US has plenty of them. (J) In the time that Putin has been in power, he hasn't really used his power... (L) In an evil way... (J) like Bush has, Putin hasn't invaded any other countries unilaterally, or...

Session Date: July 19th 2014

Q: (L) Okay. We're going to change topics here. As you know, we just had this plane fall out of the sky over the Ukraine. Immediately the US blamed Russia, and then it started blaming the Russian-aided freedom fighters in East Ukraine. Meanwhile, the Russians say it was clearly the Ukrainians in conjunction with US/NATO/UK/Whoever. So, I guess the first thing we ought to ask is: What brought the plane down?

A: [Spiraling] Bomb on the plane placed there prior to departure.

Q: (Pierre) Schiphol airport, again! The famous Underwear Bomber place! So, MOSSAD?

(L) Who was involved?

A: Note change in altitude for "signature".

Q: (Perceval) From 35 to 33...

(L) 33. Is 33 the clue?

A: Yes. Consortium. And who is at the top of this STS pyramid??

Q: (Perceval) Figures.

(L) Who is at the top of this pyramid? And who is at the top?

(Perceval) MOSSAD.

(L) MOSSAD? The Israelis?

A: Yes

Q: (Perceval) It seems the goal was to further demonize Putin and Russia. But was it also to distract from what's happening in Palestine?

A: Absolutely!

Q: (Pierre) Is it only coincidence... before MH 17, there was MH 370, this plane that disappeared from the same company. Is it just coincidence that the two incidents involve the same airline company?

A: Another "signature".

Q: (Data) Why did the plane deviate from its usual course?

A: Instructed by ATC.

Q: (Perceval) Air traffic control at Schiphol?

A: Kiev.

Q: (Perceval) So, some agent...

(L) There was some control by MOSSAD in Kiev, and that whole Nazi business going on there...

(Kniall) They've been there for DECADES!

A: Yes!

Q: (L) I think that was answering Kniall there.

(Data) Why was it necessary to change the course with a bomb on board?

(L) So it would fall where it did. They had to change the course to put it in the middle of the war zone.

(Ark) The Russians were saying that the timing was a little bit miscalculated because it was supposed to come down closer to the Russian territory so that it would be easier to blame Russia.

A: Yes.

[...]


(Perceval) In terms of the propaganda war and the kind of lower-level conflict, I suppose you would say that it is between the US and Russia...

(Kniall) Is there some understanding between the US and Russia that Israel is the wildcard?

(Perceval) No, that's not what I'm thinking of. In terms of these people at the top of the pyramid, do they feel threatened in any way by what Putin and Russia is doing, or is that merely at the lower level of geopolitical chessboard nonsense?

A: They are incapable of seeing outcomes other than what they wish.

Q: (Perceval) I think way back just after 9/11, there was a reference made to the "Russians" having some evidence about 9/11? Is that true, or am I...?

(L) No, that wasn't in the sessions.

(Perceval) Do the Russians have any data on the truth of the 9/11 attacks?

A: Yes.

Q: (Perceval) Would it ever be in the realm of possibility, or within Putin's power to release that kind of information just to mix things up in the information war?

A: Strong possibility if the tide of public perception can be adjusted.

Session Date: August 16th 2014

(Puck) Is Putin a descendant of Julius Caesar? [laughter]

A: No, but member of the same soul group.

Q: (L) Is that it?

Session Date: September 7th 2013

Q: (Ark) I think there is another reason. You start the war, and then you let some kinds of these rebels to have access to nuclear weapons. Can you imagine how much more Homeland Security you will be able to have then if you let all these "Islamist rebels" get these weapons? Give your enemy advanced weapons, pretend you are helping them to get rid of Assad, and then later, "Oh, we didn't know they are terrorists, but now they have access to these weapons! We have to close our borders! We have to control everything!" (Andromeda) It's creepy, some of these reports of Homeland Security making these huge orders of hollow point bullets, and building these compounds with fences... It looks like they're kind of getting ready for some revolution or something. (Perceval)I wondered if those reports are just...

A: The real war, as you know, is on normal people via proxies.

Q: (Kniall) Are the Russians really trying to stop this?

A: At the moment.

Q: (Perceval)So...

A: Putin is also not so heartless.

Q: (Perceval)What are the chances that if the Americans and French bomb Syria, that Putin and the Russian military would respond?

A: Very good unless things change.

Session Date: March 22nd 2014

Q: (L) Okay, I guess the question on a lot of people's minds is: How about that Vladimir Putin, huh?

A: He's not perfect but he's the best your planet has in such a position at this time.

Q: (L) So, he's not a psychopath?

A: No.

Q: (Perceval) Is there anyone essentially giving him orders? Is what he's doing being controlled directly in that sense?

A: Not in the sense you mean, but yes in the sense of conscience.

Q: (Ark) I think that what is of value is that he has the right team of advisors. When you have your advisors and they are smart and knowledgeable, they are experts in certain areas, and they will say, "If you do this, this will be the result, so I suggest that."

A: Indeed, there are many in Russia who learned in a school of hard reality difficult for Westerners to imagine. On top of this, they are better educated in general.

Q: (PoB) Is there a real threat of Putin being assassinated?

A: Always that, but he wasn't KGB for nothing.

Session Date: August 23rd 2014

(Nicolas) We were wondering if Putin was going to play the 9/11 card, if he was going to be forced to do it, or...

A: Eventually. All of the efforts to support Putin will help the revelations to come sooner.

Q: (Perceval) Yay, Putin!

(L) I mean, did ya'll notice the propaganda over the last week or so with this aid convoy to Ukraine? I mean, the incredible... The New York Times, the UN, this Fogh Rasmussen guy, the incredible bald-faced, outrageous LIES that they were publishing in the media! "Russia Invades! Armed Convoy! Ukraine wipes out Russian troops!" All of it was lies, lies, lies, and bullshit. How can Putin DO anything when he's up against that kind of absolutely un.... I can't even find words for it! You never would have expected the US of A, the Western world, supposedly the carrier of the torch of liberty, publishing CRAP like that! It's worse than the worst Soviet era propaganda! And they were publishing it and people were buying it!! What do you think they would do if Putin suddenly gave out the information of who was really behind 9/11?

(Pierre) They would dismiss it.

(L) It would be immediately dismissed, and he would be blamed for being a whacko. He would be a whacko 9/11 truther conspiracy theorist who lost his mind. Remember, there was more than one case of people who were actually taken under psychiatric care for daring to say that 9/11 was an inside job. They've got the situation set up where he can't say a freaking word unless and until THIS situation changes.

(Perceval) What about if he's got evidence?

(L) They would dismiss the evidence. What about the evidence of nanothermite, the videos of the collapsing WTC buildings, etc.

(Perceval) What about something that's more of a smoking gun?

(L) They had the evidence of this aid convoy driving in, delivering their stuff, and then driving away, and they STILL called it a freaking invasion!

(Chu) What kind of evidence couldn't they destroy?

(L) The level of propaganda and the level of stupidity of the majority of people is still way too high. Everybody has to see the man behind the curtain.

(Andromeda) They have to at least suspect him.

(Perceval) Okay, so, if Putin eventually will reveal something, what evidence does he have?

(Approaching Infinity) The last time we had a session with NC, I thought I asked if he had 9/11 information, and they said yes.

(Perceval) Yeah, but we didn't ask what. Does he have like high definition video of a Global Hawk flying into the Pentagon that nobody can refute?

A: Almost.

Q: (Pierre) But the Global Hawk would frame the US and not Israel.

(Perceval) Doesn't matter.
 
Hi Antony. I didn't read all your posts yet and thread in general but many thanks for contributing so far.

Afraid to ask specific questions here but I am interested in your views of Russian Project.
 
Antony said:
Also, imo, C's said nothing in particular about his motives, orientation - the necessary questions were not asked.

Well, I don't think that is true. As Ennio posted above, Putins "motives and orientation" are covered quite well in what the C's had to say so far.
I think it is quite clear from the sections Ennio posted.
 
Siberia said:
But the real strength of Russia is not in gold or weapons: it is in the Russian spirit, which is compassion and help. In case of emergency Russia always comes to help: with Ebola, floods, earthquakes, etc. Over a million Ukrainian refugees now reside in Russia, and they receive their shelter, food and other necessary aid. Ukrainian children now study in Russia free of charge. This is the role of Russia: to share knowledge, to help others, to unite people. And Russia is not alone on this path, many other nations actively participate. And the more people join in, the better future our planet may have. OSIT

I think the participants in this video describe Russia's vision rather well. And clearly, what ever Putin and his team are working on now goes beyond, and in fact has nothing to do with simple "opposition to the West". (don't forget to click on CC for English subtitles)


https://youtu.be/aGuuorNhzWw
 
Antony said:
I completely agree with you Siberia on that (below)! That's what differs Russians from the STS oriented west (in general). That is our greatest strength and the reason the western elite was and is afraid of us as the carriers of STO paradigm. Eternal conflict based on these opposing values.
In our case, imo, if these deeds you described were not done that appertained way, the Russians in mass would not understand and support our leadership. That is what our "chiefs" understand and use for their own benefit such as increasing electorate support.

"But the real strength of Russia is not in gold or weapons: it is in the Russian spirit, which is compassion and help. In case of emergency Russia always comes to help: with Ebola, floods, earthquakes, etc. Over a million Ukrainian refugees now reside in Russia, and they receive their shelter, food and other necessary aid. Ukrainian children now study in Russia free of charge. This is the role of Russia: to share knowledge, to help others, to unite people. And Russia is not alone on this path, many other nations actively participate. And the more people join in, the better future our planet may have. OSIT"

Siberia, next point concerning reserves. Buying US (issued by the government) obligations naturally means supporting their's economy. While our own economy is being deprived of much needed funds in order to invest them into the development (interests rates here for small and average business is unimaginable for developed countries- starting roughly from 15-20% a year. As for big corporations- the sanctions made them loose an "easy"/harmful opportunity to borrow from the western institutions what was done till this spring). You would not expect the Soviet government to even think to keep it's wallet in enemy's pocket. Remember De Gaulle's attempt to retrieve the French gold from US.

Seekintruth,
Taking your statement about Russian military. I do agree that our military shield, developed and build during Soviets, still deters western's wish to destroy our country with military force.
American report on Russian military capabilities - serves Pentagon primarily. Politically wise- they support the 'legend' they created themselves - that Russia is devil and has "teeth" to conquer neighbors and, oh god, even West as a whole. Another aim - to get largely increased funding for US and NATO army. Did not you know that identical tricks were used during Cold War? (Oh, Russians developed a new sub or a ICBM- we need to catch up and outclass them. "Poor" military businessman).
But our military industry suffers from bad management (as I have said that we are mostly dependent on cooperation with foreign countries, and the policies undertaken in 2000-2014 to return production lines here have failed-we stupidly had to wait for sanctions in order to start talking about imports replacement-which now in such a hostile and given economic environment would be much harder, won't it?). The former minister of defense A.Serdukov, whom I mentioned yesterday, was destroying army's structure, sacking most experienced officers and selling huge premises to his relatives and colleagues, liquidated famous military universities etc etc in period of 2007-2012. For his deeds he received by secret Putin's decree a highest Russian state award - Hero of Russia. He was dismissed only after the scale of corruption spilled over to the mass media. But he was saved from persecution thanks to his "great achievements" and now works in military industry! Great, is not it?!
I appreciate the intensified military drills - but in that amount they started after Crimean events.
I would also mind your tone. How do you evaluate it? Adequate? Being insulting is your style?

Kniall,
Thanks for your assessment. I understand who stands behind Hong Kong events. Incidentally I happened to be there in the end of September (unfortunately did not see that UFO sightseeing in person). Light version of Maidan. According to some analysts the timing coincided with the opening of Shanghai golden bourse, which conducts the transactions with physical gold, opposing NY's Comex that only sells golden 'air'.
I did not see the thread about Chavez, sorry. I really honored him for his personal qualities, leadership talents, electrifying charisma! My colleagues told me of that uplifting feeling that overwhelmed them in his presence.
Try to put the pieces of puzzle (contradicting facts) together - learning is fun! And no need to beat the poor dead horse:)

Perceval,
If we take an outside influence as the major factor of country's stability and prosperity, does it give a credit to it's leadership?!

Antony, you use a lot of selection in how you want to present things, including what the C's said or didn't say, or how followup questions should have been asked, etc. As to your response to me, sure there is always that aspect that the military-industrial-security-intelligence complex is exaggerating or faking a situation to make money - war is and always has been a racket. But this situation is not the same as the old Cold War "missile gap" hoax/claim. Many have seen in real time Russian exercises and tests; many experienced military and geopolitical analysts who have NO connection to the West's/US's military-industrial complex, in fact they're adamantly in opposition to it, have analyzed Russia's missile (and air defense as a whole) capabilities and they clearly concluded that Russia has an obvious, objective advantage.

There is also a little known incident that happened last year just before the Anglo-American-Zionist Empire was preparing to attack Syria and Assad before they suddenly backed down. It was only initially covered in a local Lebanese newspaper, then in a couple of blogs discussing the incident. There was a joint US-Israeli missile test where the missiles were immediately shot down, falling into the Mediterranean Sea. Then the Empire immediately backed down.

Now the most prominent narrative is that the public of the US and UK were adamantly against the attack on Syria and that's why they backed down. But for anyone that's been paying attention, is this how politics in the Empire really works? When was the last time they backed down because of public opposition to ANY policy, especially war? Can you give me one example? Was this the Russian's way of showing the Empire cabal what would happen if they attacked Syria? And THEN the masterful Russian diplomacy to diffuse the false flag chemical weapons attack followed, that helped the Empire save face as they had to back down. Because that is much more plausible - they only understand force/power and evidence and reasoning about their agenda alone will NOT make them change path, as has been seen over and over again. Now granted we are not going to get a "smoking gun" evidence about this kind of thing because the Empire and it's media propaganda arm have no interest in this kind of thing becoming known. And Russia does NOT swagger and threaten, they do what needs to be done without public posturing - so Russia would only show them their military response without any publicity and follow up with their successful diplomatic deescalation.

On a related note, the pattern of playing good cop/bad cop, as quite a few have claimed (that Putin and Russia are part of the "NWO" agenda), the usual pattern does NOT match. The animosity and hatred against Putin is REAL. The Empire of Pathological Oligarchy has been outmaneuvered consistently by Putin since he came to power. The points I want to make are going to be set in the largest context possible.

So you say I'm being insulting toward you, implying that it's because I can't make a convincing, reasoned argument against your claims. Fair enough. I have no interest in insulting you - just to be clear, I've run into your type of phrasing and framing things too many times now, so I'm just pointing out that your posts have that typical following of a well-known script and what is known as a "concern trolling" quality. No insult is meant, it's just the way it is. I'll give you the benefit of the doubt that you are at least sincere and just misinformed, but mostly I'm posting this for the benefit of anyone who reads this (whether they are members of the forum and also post or unknown people who only read). I just wanted to note that my replies to your posts have seemed insulting to you, not because my intention was to just insult you for having a different view of these issues, but because your approach to the whole thing is so transparent to me - that is part of the Work, that you can't see how others see you and your machinations (what we refer to as the Predator's Mind).

Again, I'm only going by your very limited interaction here in the forum, so you have a chance to prove me wrong by not continually ignoring what has been pointed out and spinning things in a way where it suits your agenda. THIS is what kind of impression you've given by your interactions. This includes you using this forum's terminology, including, for example your reply to Kniall above using the C's famous "learning is fun" saying. Do you see how you come across? You are a newbie (there's no insult in this, we were all newbies at some point, and I still consider myself somewhat of a newbie to the Work) and you have given nothing to the forum yet: no networking (just a debate you are determined to win using dubious sources and claims), no research with reliable sources with a good track record, etc. Yet you come with the attitude to teach and set all of us poor deluded fools straight. OK, it's certainly possible that you know more than the rest of us combined, but how probable is it? These are some of the most basic elements of the Work done here that I'm raising, not only in your attitude toward the issues concerning Russia and Putin, but generally how you have a superior attitude. But you are simply a newbie that has yet to contribute anything of any value at all to the network - that's an objective fact, even if you find it insulting. You project the air of knowing more about the Work done here, the background and interpretation of the C's session transcripts, etc. You use Work terminology and things the C's have said that you clearly don't understand and are misapplying within the context of this thread. These are obvious, but you don't see it (and this is common, not something unusual to you personally). In addition, you have this attitude very broadly: for example, your personal experience of living in the Russian Federation somehow trumps Siberia's. Siberia doesn't even live in the two major cities of Moscow and St. Petersburg that your type commonly claim are the only places in Russia that have seen whatever minimal improvements they are willing to concede. You see, somehow to you, the fact that Siberia also lives in Russia is dismissed (as if Siberia is just some "bumpkin" whose views can't be taken seriously) when you were using your living in Russia to pull rank on those who don't live there.

Now, you are trying to say that Putin has not improved the situation in Russia in any way whatsoever? And you are "trying to give us a more objective picture"? You are pushing the same script and agenda as the propagandists such Luke Harding or Masha Gessen and many, many others. You can't concede even obvious things about the situation in Russia and about Putin. This is an information war going on. And if you are sincere (can't say absolutely one way or the other), you are still repeating the same scripted talking points over and over again. And this does give the impression of not only having what we call the "Right Man Syndrome" but what we have come to study extensively here which was referred to in Political Ponerology as pathological persistence. You keep coming back to this thread to take another shot at "correcting" our view/stance on the "Role of Russia."

I personally have not only been closely observing Putin and following the events for many years now, I've been lucky enough to have delved to some extent into history, particularly of ancient Rome and Caesar because of Laura's exhaustive researches and writings. The resemblance of Putin to Caesar (probably the greatest man recorded in history) in the world situation, allowing for the differences of the details of the circumstances, is really astonishing. Knowing how much of history is falsified and rewritten to suit the agenda of the Powers That Be / the perpetual pathological oligarchy, this is a very important point.

What has been done to Caesar's life, achievements, and character, is being done in real time in front of our eyes to Putin. THIS is the crux of the matter. You and others like you demand that Putin be perfect. This, to me, is nonsense. Refusing to acknowledge the most obvious achievements, accomplishments, and character traits is very telling for me. By your logic and "standards", no one would ever be entitled to be given credit for anything. But you DO give credit to people like Stalin or to the achievements of the Soviet Union - so this a glaring double or multiple standard you are applying. Why is that?

Besides all the historical data gathered here on this forum about Caesar, and all the dot connecting Laura has done, the C's have said some very intriguing things about him, as well as Putin, which in both cases matches the real world research and observations. Now according to the C's, when asked about it, Caesar had killed many people in his life. So according to this paramoralistic and paralogical tendencies and black and white thinking shown in this thread by you, Caesar should be condemned in the harshest terms and denied any credit for attempting and achieving many positive things for humanity and the "civilization" of his time? The C's also said that some of this killing by Caesar was certainly exaggerated later to diminish and demonize him, but they did say that he had certainly killed many people.

This is an important point about the subtleties of the Third Force in the Work terminology - the context / particular circumstances that decide what is evil and what is good in a given situation. I can't think of anything more serious than killing another human being. But the details of the circumstances can't be emphasized enough to show if it was the right thing to do. Now, with the case of Putin, there's NO evidence whatsoever that he has killed many people (which doesn't necessarily mean that he hasn't), but the vilification and diminishing of his achievements and well-attested character are the same as what was done to Caesar.

For me at this point, we are in a war between the oppressive and deceptive forces of the status quo and a few figures leading their people and countries in opposition to these forces to bring a better potential future (as well as recent past and present) for them and humanity at large. These figures included people such as Chavez, Gaddafi, Asad, and most prominently, Putin. Whether you are sincere, Antony, or not, I've given you a chance to address THESE issues now, having put much time which I don't have much to spare into sketching out more of the underlying issues. We certainly seem to have different definitions of facts - which is very disturbing (because facts should be facts if your claimed open mindedness were applied) - when it comes to Russia and Putin. But I'm going beyond beating that dead horse for the moment to give a broader coverage in what I see as the problem with your interactions. I get no satisfaction or anything else from insulting you. I'm laying things out as I see them. If my tone is not appropriate, I'm willing to listen to others' input and apologize and adjust as needed. But do you see what is being pointed out about YOUR tone?
 
Antony said:
Military-comparing with 1990s and 2010s we started to buy more weapons. But the quantity of new items is very small. The problem is that all major military tech is still of Soviet times. Take tanks, planes, ships - nothing conceptually new was invented for 15 years - modernization is a slogan here. ICBMs, the ones that are still feared by the US and Co. are Soviet's made. Almost 20 years can't finish Bulava(( Ukraine's crisis have struck hard - a break up in production cooperation has put at risk a lot of our projects. According to plan all vital technology should have been moved to Russia by 2010. - Nothing has been done. Another, more scary thing - we lost a lot of production chains, did almost nothing to restore, so made ourselves dependent on western imports. Mistral ships - is the most "famous" Serdukov's deal. Is he in jail for the huge robbery and destroying army's structure?! Who appointed him? :) Do you honestly believe that nobody knew what he had been doing? i won't go into more details here-it is my area of interest and I can continue for ages.

The major part of the above statement is twisted and misleading, to say the least. Please keep in mind two words: export (i.e. Rosoboronexport) and Serdyukov, and let's consider this post in detail.

Antony claims that we started to buy more weapons: so what's wrong with that? More weapons, more safety. And if you mean that we should buy less and produce and export more, then you must know that this is exactly what Russia is doing now. Russia is not among the top 10 largest importers of weapons, but it is certainly a leader in exports.

According to ALL world's major weapon ratings, Russia is the second largest exporter of weapons in the world after the US. There are dozens, if not hundreds of various ratings and analytics on the subject, you can easily find them using Google search function. Here is one of such charts:

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Even if these numbers are not perfectly correct, it is obvious that Russia has become one of the top leaders recently.

The quality of Russian weapons is high enough. Yes, we have some failures sometimes, who doesn't? Especially when it comes to testing new items. But in general, our weapons are reliable. Two weeks ago, even the US General admitted it:

WASHINGTON, October 3 (RIA Novosti) - Russian Mi-17 helicopter has been a "game changer" in the movement of Afghan forces and supplies in the fight against Taliban insurgents, the United States Army general in charge of American operations and the International Security Assistance Force in Afghanistan said.

"I think they (Mi-17) have been a force multiplier for the special operating forces and for the conventional forces, the army and the police, they have been mostly moving forces and providing resupply," US Army Gen. John F. Campbell told a gathering of reporters inside the Pentagon briefing room Thursday.

"I think that capability continues to build confidence in the Afghan security forces and Afghan people. I have been really, really impressed," Campbell noted.

General went on to say Mi-17's capabilities were allowing Afghan soldiers to be resupplied under difficult terrain and weather circumstances. Campbell called the Mi-17 capabilities "pretty incredible."

There are currently 84 Mi-17 helicopters being used by Afghan forces and an additional three more are expected, Campbell said.

The use of the Mi-17 has not been without controversy among those in Congress. In August, the US Representative for Connecticut's 3rd congressional district, member of the Democratic Party, Rosa DeLauro told CBS news the US government should not be supporting contract with the Russian government or contractor Rosoboronexport because it would be supporting the "the coffers of Russian arms dealers."

US military officials, including Campbell, have disagreed with any restrictions on the Mi-17 use in Afghanistan by coalition members.
Those are Russian helicopters the US are desperately trying to replace now because of their anti-Russian policy. And it will take years for the US to replace our rocket engines with their own ones - the ones they refused to buy recently for the same reasons.

Yes, many our modern weapons are based on the Soviet designs. But all countries develop their already existing weapons: why inventing a wheel, if all you need is modernization? And we have plenty of such upgrades: enhanced aircrafts, ships, new navigation systems, etc. Just the recent example announced about a week ago: Russia has replaced Ukrainian helicopter engines with its own ones.

Nothing has been done?! Antony, you obviously know nothing on the subject then.

Now Mistrals: those are high quality ships. We need them. This is the import of technologies. All countries apply this method: they buy high-tech equipment and create their own analogs based on these samples. China does the same - well, who doesn't?

And now let's turn to Serdyukov. As has already been said, Russian weapons export is at the world's top now. And it just so happens that Serdyukov has been the Head of Rosoboronexport corporation for many years. This is the state corporation trading Russian weapons abroad. And Serdyukov proved to be a genius seller of these weapons. Is he a thief? Maybe. Question 1: do you know many honest merchants? Question 2: if he stole those 3 m rubles, then we should forget him earning us billions more and condemn him? Stealing is a crime and should be prosecuted. But if only all thieves brought so much money to their countries' budgets.

As for his reward, we shouldn't forget that Serdyukov was the Minister of Defence back in 2008, and it was under his command that the Georgian aggression and genocide in Osettia and Abkhasia were stopped within 5 days.

So, it's not all so black and black, as you describe, Antony. I'm not saying that anything or anyone is perfect in Russia, but some spheres and people certainly deserve their due respect. Putin and Russian defence, although not perfect maybe, certainly deserve their honor.
 
Very good points, Siberia. These are the kind of things about which what Antony spews is utter nonsense. What he's saying about Russia's military equipment is laughable because his claims/accusations actually APPLY to the US. THEY don't have any workable new generation missiles or fighter jets, etc. The old work horses of the US military are 40 and 50 year old technology (and some even older) and the newer generation jets, as an example, are over-priced (and way over-budget and schedule) lemons that can't do any specific task well - they're supposed to do multiple tasks (many analysts say THAT is their design flow way too many functions/capabilities tried to be squeezed into one model), but all to mediocre standards. And their even too expensive to operate for the US for any real conflict where large numbers of them would be needed.

The US doesn't even produce their own rocket engines for even their MILITARY and INTELLIGENCE satellites and gets them from Russia. They depend on Russia to get to and from the International Space Station, etc. If Russian weapons (and space and other technology in general) were such old technology, failing to be modernized, and sub-par as Antony claims, WHY do countries like India and China want those weapons systems so much, especially the Russian aircraft, such as Sukhoi jets, and the most advanced missile systems of all kinds that these countries covet even though they have the opportunity to buy these types of weapons systems from many other countries. Are they all just idiots that want these Russian weapons, not knowing that they are sub-par "dinosaurs"? THIS is the kind of BS that just HAS to be ridiculed because there's just too much evidence that it just ain't so.

But my last post was getting at the crux of the matter of Antony spewing this stuff under some self-proclaimed expertise. He really sounds like the Kirby's and Harf's and Psaki's and Rassmussens, etc. that make fools of themselves in their public proclamations with such laughable authority and "expertise". What I'm trying to suss out is, is Antony a disinformation agent, or is he brainwashed / misinformed, but sincerely believes the crap he spews. That should become clearer from his replies to these facts. If there's any sincerity at all in his discourse, then he should at least consider that he is ignorant about his claims in a very obvious way, that the most uncontroversial and uncontested facts are even twisted beyond recognition. That's what I meant about being in the same mold as Gessen, Harding, et al. Is Antony capable of coming down off his high horse and getting real - IF he's sincere? I'm not really holding my breath at this point, but just in case....
 
Antony said:
Perceval,
If we take an outside influence as the major factor of country's stability and prosperity, does it give a credit to it's leadership?!

Not necessarily, but it might be hard to find ways to credit such leadership under such constraints. Here's an interesting video from a Russian political talk show with four panel members. They complain quite a bit about the economy and the government. First 18mins or so is criticizing the USA etc. so if you want to avoid that watch from about 19mins


https://youtu.be/aGuuorNhzWw
 
Ennio said:
Session Date: September 7th 2013

Q: (Perceval)What are the chances that if the Americans and French bomb Syria, that Putin and the Russian military would respond?

A: Very good unless things change.

I just want to note that this is now happening. Putin and the Russian military did not respond because what changed was the introduction of 'ISIS'.
 
Kniall said:
Ennio said:
Session Date: September 7th 2013

Q: (Perceval)What are the chances that if the Americans and French bomb Syria, that Putin and the Russian military would respond?

A: Very good unless things change.

I just want to note that this is now happening. Putin and the Russian military did not respond because what changed was the introduction of 'ISIS'.

Maybe, although what I meant with that question was if they directly bomb Syria with the clear intent to take out Assad. They're not there yet, so a Russian response is still on the table I reckon.
 
Before complimenting Siberia's post -Seekintruth, I would just make a couple of remarks.
First of all- the beginning of her 'military' post just confirms what have been said. The quality, technical specs and reputation of SOVIET developed weapons continue to serve us a good deal. The helicopters Mi-8/17 is one of the such examples. Excellent machines (developed as you may find in 1960s), being exploited by many countries all over the world. True that NATO buys them for Afghanistan. The problem with moving here of the production line for the engines TV3-117 is not yet solved, despite of statements in the reference you gave. How does it say- the main thing to do in the face of the commanders - report of the accomplishment before deadline and then later either the commander will be gone or you:)
In general we continue to sell a lot of military 'gadgets'. If you study the subject a bit you will see who are the customers-traditional partners, most of whom can't get western weapons for various reasons (economic-price, political-eg.different restriction imposed by the west on them etc). That of course does not undermine the high standards of our weapons. As I have stated somewhere in the beginning of this thread- the aspect that bothers is that priority is given to export sales quantity and high tech wise. Some hardware we sell well abroad, but don't have it our army.
Rocket engines is another good example of Soviet space industry backlog (have you noticed the drastically rising number of crashes of space rockets in recent years? What does it tell you?).
Couple of words about that super duper Mistral ships - that is a political project (some say Sarkozy got his percent $$$ on his election campaign) meant to show how sweetly we "kiss" with the leading European and NATO country, the ship itself is of little use and basically it is a civil ship not designed for our northern conditions. (There is a lot of info out there by our military experts on that deal).
Another thing to both of you. Siberia just completely messed up the Serdukov's background and Seekinthruth just picked that up without checking and used against me. I doubt that the Work principles and values you just talked about promote that kind of approach.
Serdukov was a minister of defense 2007-2012. Before that he was heading the Federal Tax service and before that -The director of furniture shop! Good and adequate experience, don't you think? I am really surprised how come Siberia did not know that-because the whole country watched that 'circus' on tv, and still continues doing that - his lover Vasilieva as a main dumped actress (the only person after that huge corruption scandal who is under house arrest-but allowed to live a normal life, recording music clips etc).
Concerning war with Georgia in 2008 - again wrong. The war was "won" by our military commanders on place contrary to higher "chiefs". http://www.city-n.ru/view/319280.html , http://aktualno.ru/view/ru/politics/7848?print This materials are in Russian, but in short - The morning the attack started Medvedev, then a President, could not make a decision to retaliate, Putin was in China opening Olympic Games, and Serdukov could not be reached by phone for almost a day, the ministry of defense officers were executing Serdukov's order to move to another building in order to empty space for VTB Bank!!! (Could someone imagine Pentagon officers moving from the building for example to provide the space for eg. Goldman Sachs during the war???!) . Eventually that VITAL decision was made by a general of 58th army Makarov (Caucasus region). He was sacked later for his courageous deed. The Georgians turned out to be 'capable' warriors and our army was quickly heading for Tbilisi. And then, according to some sources, Bush jr. called Putin and demanded to halt the offensive- what we obediently did. Looks like a great victory campaign, is it not???! In the light of Ukraine events it reminds me the situation in this september when pro-Russian fighters took the initiative and basically defeated Kiev's forces, "diplomacy" again helped the murderer (in this case Poroshenko) to get away.

Just to mention, that facts I am putting here for you to look at critically can be backed up by various available sources.
So fellow truth seekers, before raising one's tone, please research the issues (without emotions-does not matter how hard it can be) and then continue constructive discussion for mutual benefit.

Perceval - thanks for the video, will watch and comment on it later on.
 
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