Role of Russia

Two recent headlines Anthony, that provide a little evidence of just how not 'perfect' or ideal the situation is (and a nice picture of our Savior Putin shaking hands with an Egyptian dictator who is pals with Tony Blair and doesn't give a damn about his fellow Arabs in Palestine being slaughtered:

Tony Blair’s Egypt links in spotlight after scathing report on the deaths of over 1,000 supporters of ousted president Mohamed Morsi


Russia, Egypt looking to create a free trade zone
 

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By the way, just for the sake of accuracy, the Libyan situation was during Medvedev's presidency and Putin was insistent that the U.N. deception should be vetoed. I'm getting a more than a whiff of trying to muddy the waters, because what the Russian "elite" has done and/or wants is being made equivalent to what Putin's done and/or wants. Most of the obstacles for what Putin's been doing, besides those from the West, COME from these "elites" - that's the whole point.
 
Perceval said:
Anthony, it seems to me that you have a very naive view of the world. It doesn't work like you think it does nor does it work, or will it ever work, as you would like it to. Until you accept that you're never going to understand the nature of the dynamics at play.

Yes, I think the following anti-Putin cartoons, as Atreides said, "show a puerile intellect attempting to ruminate on subjects far beyond their capacity to contemplate".
 

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Keit said:
Yes, I think the following anti-Putin cartoons, as Atreides said, "show a puerile intellect attempting to ruminate on subjects far beyond their capacity to contemplate".

Or this. Seriously?!
 

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Antony, I think you need to get up to speed if you want to have and idea about layers of political reality in this world.


Antony said:
What we have today, shortly: _http://www.putin-itogi.ru/putin-what-10-years-of-putin-have-brought/ (Although it was written a couple of years ago by opposition, most of the facts described remain. we do not expect such summaries made by government controlled/sponsored media).

Oposition is good, but Netsov? Really? The guy who, as a member of Chubais' economic team, was responsible for crash of the Russian stock-market in 1998 [Wiki en.] when millions of Russians lost everything. The crash that was called Harvard's 'Best and Brightest' Aided Russia's Economic Ruin. Yet, the same year, after having to resign from his position as Vice Premier of Russia, he bought shares in Gasprom (link in Russian). Next year, they both founded the Union of Right Forces political party, "founded as an electoral bloc in 1999 and associated with free market reforms, privatization, and the legacy of the "young reformers" of the 1990s" (Wikipedia).

I couldn't verify it, but an interesting comment here (toward the bottom of the page) reads:

He resigned after the 1998 Russian default. If I remember correctly, just before the default he appeared on TV to reassure the public that everything was OK and there was no danger for people’s savings in the banks. A short time later these savings disappeared in the default.
He has not any credibility toward the Russians, he’s simply an “home Russian” for the Western press.

The story repeated 10 years later, when official Nemtsov's income was 186 mln rubles (6 mln USD) in 2008, another year of a great economic crisis in Russia. (link in Ru).

The same Nemtsov who is in bed with Gary Kasparov and who furiously turned against Putin when the latter arrested Khodorkovsky in 2003? Khodorkovsky funded his Union of Right Forces party... And that's only a tip of the iceberg. I'm confident you can find more if you want to.

Do you really think that guy is in a position to judge Putin's economic decisions?

Oh, there is also this page on Nemtsov's "achievements":
_http://www.rumafia.com/person.php?id=1648

ADDED: I don't know how reliable that rumafia stuff is, but if only a half of what you can find there is close to the truth, it would be definitely something to consider.
 
Antony said:
Stalin is a good example. After the defeat in WW1, Civil war, Intervention country was lying in ruins. The Bolsheviks, mostly Jewish agents (sponsored by the Jewish bankers and western intelligence services), were planning as Trotsky said, to throw (sacrifice) Russia in the fire of the world revolution. It took Stalin extraordinary efforts to intercept the initiative and make a U-turn to start a nationally oriented Soviet "project". At that time the country was in isolation and officially unrecognized by major powers. The people were mostly uneducated peasants and the economy was based on farming. He knew that the second round of world war was coming and he needed the country to be able to defend itself. It required developed industry and an educated citizen. So he proposed and implemented the economic plans called "Five years" (Пятилетки). Starting first 1928-1932, second 1933-1937, third 1938-1942 and so on. The results were really Astonishing and still not beaten economy wise by any other country. For the first four years the country had built 1500 major factories, hundreds of new cities, roads, eliminated unemployment and illiteracy. Basically created from blank automobile, aviation, machinery, chemical, metallurgic, electrical etc. industries in all the major spheres ONLY in for 4 Years!! The economy production wise exceeded 3 times the results of considered most prosperous in capitalist Csar's period 1913. After second stage (even though not all the aims were achieved) USSR became self-sufficient and second after US. Anglo-Saxon and capitalist's world suffered from bankers inspired Great Depression that time and couldn't believe such a giant leap forward from "barbarians". ....

Another topic where you've bought and acquired propaganda versions of reality. That's the layer designed for public consumption The truth was utterly different though. USRR/Russia wasn't and isn't self-sufficient (no country is). It has a chance to become more self-sufficient and economically independent only now, perhaps for the first time since a long time in her history.

Excerpts from a seminal Antony Sutton's work Western Technology and Soviet Economic Development. 1945-1965, the closing part, Conclusions 1917-1930:

The first volume of this study concluded that the Soviets employed more than 350 foreign concessions during the 1920s. These concessions, introduced into the Soviet Union under Lenin's New Economic Policy, enabled foreign entrepreneurs to establish business operations in the Soviet Union without gaining property rights. The Soviet intent was to introduce foreign capital and skills, and the objective was to establish concessions in all sectors of the economy and thereby introduce Western techniques into the dormant postrevolutionary Russian economy. The foreign entrepreneur hoped to make a normal business profit in these operations.

... In the Caucasus oil fields--then seen as the key to economic recovery by virtue of the foreign exchange that oil exports would generate—the International Barnsdall Corporation introduced American rotary drilling techniques and pumping technology. By the end of the 1920s 80 percent of Soviet oil drilling was conducted by the American rotary technique; there had been no rotary drilling at all in Russia at the time of the Revolution. International Barnsdall also introduced a technical revolution in oil pumping and electrification of oil fields. All refineries were built by foreign corporations, although only one, the Standard Oil lease at Batum, was under a concessionary arrangement—the remainder were built under contract. Numerous Type I and Type III technical-assistance concessions were granted in the coal, anthracite, and mining industries, including the largest concession, that of Lena Goldfields, Ltd., which operated some 13 distinct and widely separated industrial complexes by the late 1920s. In sectors such as iron and steel, and particularly in the machinery and electrical equipment manufacturing sectors, numerous agreements were made between trusts and larger individual Tsarist-era plants and Western companies to start up and reequip the plants with the latest in Western technology. A.E.G., General Electric, and Metropolitan-Vickers were the major operators in the machinery sectors. Only in the agricultural sector was the concession a failure.

... In other words, in only one sector was there no evidence of Western technological assistance received at some point during the 1920s. The agreements were made either with dominant trusts or with larger individual plants, but as each sector at the outset comprised only a few large units bequeathed by the Tsarist industrial structure, it was found that the skills transferred were easily diffused within a sector and then supplemented by imported equipment. Examination of reports by Western engineers concerning individual plants confirmed that restarting after the Revolution and technical progress during the decade were dependent on Western assistance.

It was therefore concluded that the technical transfer aspect of the New Economic Policy was successful. It enabled foreign entrepreneurs and firms to enter the Soviet Union. From a production of almost zero in 1922 there was a recovery to pre-World War I production figures by 1928. There is no question that the turn-around in Soviet economic fortunes in 1922 is to be !inked to German technical assistance, particularly that forthcoming after the Treaty of Rapallo in April 1922 (although this assistance was foreseeable as early as 1917 when the Germans financed the Revolution). ...
It was concluded that for the period 1917 to 1930 Western assistance in various forms was the single most important factor first in the sheer survival of the Soviet regime and secondly in industrial progress to prerevolutionary levels. ...

... The general design and supervision of construction, and much of the supply of equipment for the gigantic plants built between 1929 and 1933 was provided by Albert Kahn, Inc., of Detroit, the then most famous of U.S. industrial architectural firm. No large unit of the construction program in those years was without foreign technical assistance, and because Soviet machine tool production then was limited to the most elementary types, all production equipment in these plants was foreign. ...

Published data on the Soviet "Plans" neglect to mention a fundamental feature of the Soviet industrial structure in this period: the giant units were built by foreign companies at the very beginning of the 1930s, and the remainder of the decade was devoted to bringing these giants into full production and building satellite assembly and input-supply plants. In sectors such as oil refining and aircraft, where further construction was undertaken at the end of the decade, we find a dozen top U.S. companies (McKee, Lummus, Universal Oil Products, etc.) aiding in the oil-refining sector and other top U.S. aircraft builders in the aircraft sector (Douglas, Vultee, Curtiss-Wright, etc.).

Only relatively insignificant Soviet innovation occurred in this period: SK-B synthetic rubber, dropped in favor of more useful foreign types after World War II; the Ramzin once-through boiler, confined to small sizes; the turbodrill; and a few aircraft and machine gun designs....

... At about the same time [1917-20] American businessmen were instrumental in aiding the formation of the Soviet Bureau, and several hundred firms had their names on the file in the bureau when it was raided in 1918...

The German Government financed the Bolshevik Revolution ... The German support was largely replaced in the late 1920s by American technical assistance, but until the mid-1930s the Germans were still arming the Soviets. ...

The Soviet Union has a fundamental problem. In blunt terms, the Soviet economy, centrally planned under guidance of the Communist Party, does not constitute a viable economic system. The system cannot develop technically across a board front without outside assistance...

Examples of continuing Western assistance include the means to build the First Five Year Plan and models for subsequent duplication.

More excerpts, here.

From Sutton's Wall Street and the Bolshevik Rewolution:
In the 1930s foreign firms, mostly of the Morgan-Rockefeller group, built the five-year plans. They have continued to build Russia, economically and militarily.

You may want to watch this interview:

Antony Sutton -- Wall Street, Soviet Russia and Nazi Germany
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=njolRUOLAwg

around 20:00:
The 1st Five Year Plan (FYP) and the 2nd FYP were actually designed in the US. The design of the 1st FYP was by a corporation Albert Kahn (industrial architect) who laid out the basics of the 1st FYP for Soviets. In construction of the 1st FYP were involved International General Electric, Dupont, Ford Motor, etc.

Then, you can try and read Stalin's Plenum speeches again.

Welcome to the real world! :)
 
Antony said:
If I understand correctly that is Michalkov's junior film - which apart from his father has discredited himself by making BS films for a big screen that failed in cinemas across the country (especially the latest ones, for instance - White sun of the Dessert 2 - basically a parody of the soviet classic movie admired by everyone).

Antony, please excuse me, but the above statements of yours are also wrong.

First, as Keit has already pointed out, the Unknown Putin film was not made by Nikita Michalkov. He created another good film about Vladimir Putin though. If you follow the links above, you can enjoy a great job made by the forum team (translation and discussion).

Second, The White Sun of the Dessert was not made by Michalkov either. Nikita Michalkov filmed another brilliant movie - The Burnt by the Sun (Parts 1 and 2). If you meant this movie, then as you pointed out yourself it is indeed a "soviet classic movie admired by everyone." And the second part of it is also great. The fact that it did not become a block buster doesn't mean that the movie is a "BS" as you call it. It is not a popcorn movie, it's very deep. Many people simply prefer entertainment movies instead.

To give non-Russian forum members an idea of the level of his works, I suggest watching a famous Russian movie filmed by Nikita Michalkov The Barber of Siberia with the English subtitles. It is a wonderful story of unexpected and dramatic love between a young and adventurous American lady (Julia Ormond) and a Russian officer (Oleg Menschikov). Below is the film divided in two parts. Hope you enjoy it.


https://youtu.be/GsAp11EFTGE


https://youtu.be/PS56xqblgfw
 
Perceval - good thought about macro dynamics and making it unconsciously. Thanks.

Seekinthruth - It is naive to consider a minion Medvedev to be independent in any way. The only "reforms" he had done are now being undone.

Possibility of being - yes, I know Nemtsov is a big "liberal reformer" so to say, that is why I mentioned it. These are still the facts in the report and it made the government nervous so that police was running around the country and confiscating this booklets on the eve of elections.
Other curious thing is - that the other reformers from 90s such Chubais(now heading Rosnano corporation which in spite anti corruption office results of audit continues to steal a lot of budget money and produces nothing, ah, forgot, nano socks and nano lamps. On early 2000s was even invited to Bilderberg club meeting as a representative of Russia), Kirienko (he was he prime minister during the default in 98. Following that government issued a decree forbidding him to occupy any state position. However now he is running government corporation Rosatom (nuclear industry), Gaidar - he died recently and received a monument installed due to his "Great economic achievements".
Other close to Putin ministers/aides are still in service (Kydrin, Gref, Fursenko etc. - his colleagues from St.Petersburg and "offsprings" of Sobchak's "nest" - famous Russophobe), each of them destroyed spheres responsible for and after being rotated to another positions. There is an old saying Tell me who is your friend and I will tell you who you are.

Concerning technological cooperation with the Germany, US. I do not deny it and underestimate it's input. It was clever of him to use them and than produce home made technology based on it! (for the last 15 years we have been only purchasing foreign equipment, in parallel destroying our own production. It is easier this way, of course, until the sanctions were imposed - what to do now, they do Not know).

Siberia - my apologies, you are correct. I meant Burnt by the Sun 2. He used his administrative resource and persuaded schools to make pupils all over the country to go and watch it during class time (free will approach obviously).

Laura- watching it right know, will give you a feedback today if it is not too late.
 
https://www.facebook.com/photo.php?fbid=10152577092209336&set=p.10152577092209336&type=1&theater

Just came across the above picture on FB. Bush Putin and President of China all together in full Grand Lodge Masons Regalia!
 
happyliza said:
https://www.facebook.com/photo.php?fbid=10152577092209336&set=p.10152577092209336&type=1&theater

Just came across the above picture on FB. Bush Putin and President of China all together in full Grand Lodge Masons Regalia!

That, to me, looks like formal Chinese clothes they are wearing.
 
Nicolas said:
happyliza said:
https://www.facebook.com/photo.php?fbid=10152577092209336&set=p.10152577092209336&type=1&theater

Just came across the above picture on FB. Bush Putin and President of China all together in full Grand Lodge Masons Regalia!

That, to me, looks like formal Chinese clothes they are wearing.

Doesn't look like freemasonic regalia at all. It's actually a traditional Vietnamese 'ao dai' costume from the 2006 Asia-Pacific Economic Cooperation summit in Vietnam.
 
Eboard10 said:
Doesn't look like freemasonic regalia at all. It's actually a traditional Vietnamese 'ao dai' costume from the 2006 Asia-Pacific Economic Cooperation summit in Vietnam.

Yes, I hope it's a joke, otherwise it's very silly (I mean thinking that it's Masons attire).
 
Nicolas said:
happyliza said:
https://www.facebook.com/photo.php?fbid=10152577092209336&set=p.10152577092209336&type=1&theater

Just came across the above picture on FB. Bush Putin and President of China all together in full Grand Lodge Masons Regalia!

That, to me, looks like formal Chinese clothes they are wearing.

Yeah, that doesn't look anything like Mason regalia.

Grand-Master-Mitchell-e1352128317870.jpg
 
Antony, you believe Russia is no different in its corrupt ways than anywhere else.

How then do you explain why Putin is demonized by the West?
 
Happyliza-I also believe that it is one of the APEC meetings-leaders according to protocol should wear national dress of the host country.

Better look at this pictures http://poiskpravdy.wordpress.com/2009/12/18/putmed/
There is a quote of rabbis: Not a single leader of USSR or Russia have made so much for Jews as Putin. It is unprecedented.
Also there is an old picture of Eltsin getting a title of Maltese order.

Still watching the film...
 
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