Romantic Fiction, Reality Shaping and The Work

Laura

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I feel very sorry for you @reilpmeit.


Life is religion. Life experiences reflect how one interacts with God. Those who are asleep are those of little faith in terms of their interaction with the creation. Some people think that the world exists for them to overcome or ignore or shut out. For those individuals, the worlds will cease. They will become exactly what they give to life. They will become merely a dream in the "past." People who pay strict attention to objective reality right and left, become the reality of the "Future." (02-09-28)
 
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ark

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Some could argue that for those romantic novels,it's not all about sex,and there is not so much scenes in terms on quantity .But those sexual scenes(even if there is just one scene) are no less pornographic than than just full-on porn,written or filmed-in the end it doesn't really matter.

You reasoning tells me something about you. "Some could argue that for those romantic novels,it's not all about sex,"

One does not have to argue. It's simply true. There is a lot more. And yet you have selected just "sex" Like anything else but sex is not even worthy of your attention. I see it as a defective thinking. Well, I am a physycist/mathematician, so you may say that I selectively choose to address the plausible defect in your thinking. Perhaps, but I consider it as a really serious defect. That I feel obliged to point it out.
 

reilpmeit

The Force is Strong With This One
You are missing the point with this comparison (apples and oranges).
I'm not missing a point.
It is untrue that sexual energy can be used for creative purpose. Rather lack of sexual energy gives freedom to do something creative.
This is generalization,but problem for Western mind have always been that it values more (for example) act of consumption than than freedom from it.
"We have food,so lets make it perfect,we have sex so make it perfect"-that kind of thinking.

And I'm not speaking from my head,many years ago for some time I was in "this field" with few people. Other than realization of which I'm talking to you right now,nothing good come out of it.

Those things can indeed lower libido in some people. But you are missing the point, and you sound like someone who is very afraid of the emotional realizations and work involved in transforming that "libido" into something creative, and good for others. I think that you are confusing "independence from sexual arousal or sublimation of sexual cravings" with repression of same, fueled by self-importance, by someone who decided they are "beyond all that nonsense" before really understanding their machine, finding out their real emotions, and working towards becoming a better person. It is choosing the easy path to exercise, fast or whatever instead of doing the very hard work of facing one's own nature (with the good and the bad it contains), and working with it, not against it.
You are one which assumes much about many things here.
Sublimation is not indulgence.

Sublimation doesn't come from thinking "I have heightend libido,lets find a way to get rid off it,by "discharging" myself on something,using my imagination" . That is indulgence. If you are using it,it still comes under indulgence.
Repression thinking is like "I have not libido",lying youself while your body is burning in lust.
Sublimation comes from realisation "I have heightend libido,lets find a way to get rid off it,by not allowing me to "discharge" myself".

I only talked about how to get rid off sexual cravings,without repressing it.
Problem is it can't be transferred to something creative(or rather it can be for someone "loves" and enjoys living STS life,for nefarious purposes)
You are playing with very dangerous fire here. In many "circles" this is considered dark arts,and for a good reason.
 

Martina

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First of all not only that we have our own Decameron:-D, after reading 2 books from Sons of sins, I feel really energetic and I remembered many good things from my past. The bonds that can be made between two people, simply beautiful. It gave me a wish to get married one day:lol:. This whole Amor+Psyche archetype is who we are, what inspires us, gives us a support and transformes us into immortals.
To make you laugh a bit I will post you a Croatian cover:-PScreenshot_20200811-184721.png
 

Luks

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@reilpmeit

Experiencing sexuality depends on the individual. For instance, if you stop eating, it doesn't mean that you go to the 4th Density, because of it. It can be quite different; you may have to wait for certain lessons in your lifetime (in 3D) and by killing yourself because of lack of food you will not have occasion to learn those lessons.

In a sense, the same thing is with sex and sexuality. Not lack of sex is the solution, but gain a point of balance and for everyone those point of balance is different. If you lose your sex apatite or interested in the opposite sex you can loose also the possibility to learn a lesson. The key is a balance between the spirit and the body. Of course, I can tell that that balance looks different in one person, and differently in another.

Maybe there are people on this planet who do not have sex and do not "abuse" of sex in any way, like through dissociating thoughts. They are VERY close to the STO, and they simply do not need it. But for most of the people if you, for instance, would ban them a possibility to experience their sexuality this would destroy them, not help them.

It happens like that because people and generally every life in the universe need balance. The specific human being should discover what is his point of balance, and step by step move this level of balance into more spiritual life and prevail in his physicality (of course, first, if this is his choice, in any case).
 

whitecoast

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I'm saying that concentrating on sex and food is good way to chain spirit to matter.

Nobody here would disagree that concentrating on one facet of human experience to the exclusion of all else is bad, but if that's your impression of what's going on in this thread I think you should reread Laura's introduction post more closely, since there's a lot of nuance your missing. It is equally unhealthy to totally dispense with one facet of human nature.

Rigid or not,it is truthful. Reading "romantic" novels,watching porn,or "practicing sex to achieve better relatioships" all falls under abuse of sex as Gudjieff say.

Gurdjieff never said anything to that effect. You're taking wildly different situations with wildly different internal experiences and relational contexts - simply because sexuality is involved in some way - and reducing it to the lowest common denominator, to the exclusion of all else that sexuality may enrich or enhance in our lives. If you haven't read Cupid's Poison Arrow yet I strongly recommend you do so.

Abuse of sex only occurs in the lower 3 centers, not when it is connected with the higher emotional center (which is what we are fundamentally talking about here).

Going back to the idea of The Fall as we understand it on here, it was rooted in "pleasure for the self," i.e. this sexual circuit (among other things) disconnected from love and virtue and creativity in service of the latter two. So by saying all sexuality or expression thereof is sin you're in effect saying that our fallen state is the only possible state for humans to be in. In effect you are cutting off the path to the way back by denying this possibility. The purpose here is to absorb and digest in one's consciousness and subconsciousness material for catching glimmers of what a morally healthy and STO sexual expression looks and feels like.

To say that sexuality has no place is to say there was some fundamental brokenness or mistake in human nature that was not driven by our individual choices or karma. That is Manichaean nonsense, and that is responsible for the creation of a lot of eunuchs in the past with similarly accompanying impotent philosophies of hatred for life on this earth.

This is generalization,but problem for Western mind have always been that it values more (for example) act of consumption than than freedom from it.

There's always been an ascetic/chaste vein in western traditions due to Christianity, what are you talking about?

I think you should quit wrestling with this straw man "western mind" in your replies and just deal with vanilla reality instead (i.e. listen to what people are actually saying in this thread, instead of cutting them down to fit into your Procrustean Bed).

Just physical activity(exercise,physical work) will lower libido,smaller food intake,and even little sunbathing will lower it too.

You forgot to add castration to the list. :rolleyes:

Your suggestions to reduce libido are directly contradicted by Gurdjieff's use of testosterone injections for his male students in his later years of practice. Neither he, nor anyone else who studies human energy systems, ever saw sexual energy as some kind of curse to handle, but a gift for us to sublimate and transform in healthy ways. Chastity *can* be one of those ways but as always the devil is in the details. Gurdjieff in his eastern travels encountered many who practiced chastity but ended up as freaks of nature all the same for their mishandling of that energy. You're incorrectly writing off many of these healthy way to use this energy as pathology, and not for very good reasons.

Sublimation doesn't come from thinking "I have heightend libido,lets find a way to get rid off it,by "discharging" myself on something,using my imagination" . That is indulgence. If you are using it,it still comes under indulgence.

This is self-serving hairsplitting. How about you provide some evidence of actual harm being done here? Many people thus far have been reporting emotional benefits and improvements to outlook here. Or is it more along the lines of "it involves some sexual circuitry therefore it is bad?"

One does not have to argue. It's simply true. There is a lot more. And yet you have selected just "sex" Like anything else but sex is not even worthy of your attention.

Indeed. "Methink she doth protest too much." It reminds me of the story of the two monks and the beautiful woman:

A senior monk and a junior monk were traveling together. At one point, they came to a river with a strong current. As the monks were preparing to cross the river, they saw a very young and beautiful woman also attempting to cross. The young woman asked if they could help her cross to the other side.

The two monks glanced at one another because they had taken vows not to touch a woman.

Then, without a word, the older monk picked up the woman, carried her across the river, placed her gently on the other side, and carried on his 
journey.

The younger monk couldn’t believe what had just happened. After rejoining his companion, he was speechless, and an hour passed without a word between them.

Two more hours passed, then three, finally the younger monk could contain himself any longer, and blurted out “As monks, we are not permitted a woman, how could you then carry that woman on your shoulders?”

The older monk looked at him and replied,
“Brother, I set her down on the other side of the river, why are you still carrying her?”
 

Approaching Infinity

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To say that sexuality has no place is to say there was some fundamental brokenness or mistake in human nature that was not driven by our individual choices or karma. That is Manichaean nonsense, and that is responsible for the creation of a lot of eunuchs in the past with similarly accompanying impotent philosophies of hatred for life on this earth.
Amen! Very well put, whitecoast. I think you got right to the crux of the matter.
 

Kay Kim

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Someone might think that we are reading the romantic novels for sexual glorifying the body.
But we also know that it’s energy can uses as the tools to higher purpose to activities higher heart chakra.

Haha, some years ago, I have been using sexual energy as tools to healed my body. Because at the time, I didn’t know what to do about it. So, when ever I felt sexual energy comes up, I let it spread throughout my whole body. And it seems actually worked pretty good.
Nowadays I found out that lots of my old friends have medical condition and some die from it, but I am still healthy and strong.
From my experience, the body knows one’s feelings and activates in the way good or bad. So I have learned to be always appreciate any situation come up with joyous challenges to deal with. Anyway life is more fun to be living this way was for me.

I haven’t read any books yet, but I found out it still working like old days ago.
So now I focus on sexual center and then when the energy comes up, then I slowly rises the energy to my heart chakra, then stay there and feel the energy. When I do this there is no sexual imagination what so ever, just focus the nice feeling warm or hot energy.
So, maybe this is the easier way to activities higher- emotional heart chakra which corresponds to 4th density energy!
So I am looking forward to read the books and explore new ideas or new reality!

July 13, 2002

Lower moving center - basal chakra

Lower emotional - sexual chakra

Lower intellectual - throat chakra

Higher emotional - heart chakra

Higher intellectual - crown chakra

Q: (L) What about the so-called seventh, or "third eye" chakra?

A: Seer. The union of the heart and intellectual higher centers

June 3, 1995

(L) ...what, exactly, is a chakra?

A: An energy field that merges density one, two, three or four with five.

Q: (T) A focus point that merges densities to fifth density contemplation level?

A: Close.

Q: (T) What purpose do we merge to the contemplation level through the chakras?

A: You are all connected with level five on a short wave cycle, reference text.

Q: (L) Does each chakra relate to a color as we have been told?

A: In a sense, but not primary issue.

Q: (L) What is the primary issue?

A: The connection with physical imprint locator.

Q: (L) So, that has to do with this area right here? Are we back to the house?

A: On a physical body, density levels one through four.
 

Martina

Jedi Master
This is ego talking- "Real sex is awful ,let's just imagine it as something better"
Ultimately there is no difference. Real question is "Why I'm imaging sex,or about sex in the first place?"



Rigid or not,it is truthful. Reading "romantic" novels,watching porn,or "practicing sex to achieve better relatioships" all falls under abuse of sex as Gudjieff say. There are different levels of abuse,but abuse is abuse. Why do you think that all religions insist on using sex only for continuation of human kind?Just to annoy you?



Sex can be mixed with love.But it is the love that loses part of itself because of lust. Real love dosen't have sexual component in itself.The truer love,the lesser lust is.And true love can not came from lust itself. You can lie to yourself as much as you want,but this is a fact.Not dogma,but pragmatic fact.

I'm saying that concentrating on sex and food is good way to chain spirit to matter. Once that you have sex in mind,soul (counsciousness unit) don't want to think about spiritual,or STO ideas.It just want to consume,it becames STS. What a geat way it is,to implant ideas of food and sex to souls,surround them with bunch of OP and use them as feeding mechanism.It is perfect perpetum mobile for 4D STS .
Souls are not born from sex. Bodies are. Many are confused with this.
We live in material world,and we must eat to stay in material world.It is just that simple.But just only for few decades,but many are forgetting,or don't want to be reminded that life is transient. And who says that hunger of the soul wont stay once the body expire? So who cares about spirit,who cares about bloodlines,of STO,just let me to consume,and be consumed as well.
I don't know if you'll understand my writing because I'm not english speaker :-) but reading this books I didn't have any unpure thoughts or feeling lust, I don't think they have such impact on people. You should read something first and share with us some of your thoughts.
 

Neil

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Regarding the sinfulness of sex, the day after Laura started this thread I had one of my "internal dialog" events. I had woke up after some dream, might've been sexual, but I don't remember at all what it was about. I remember I was very aroused, along with all of the tingliness and sense of urgency that goes on down there, and also had sort of a bubbling sensation in my "heart center." I rolled over and looked at ... contemplating how I was going to "relieve" this particular situation. I flopped back on the bed and thought, "Why does my body insist on torturing me with this? Why can't I just eliminate sex from my [personal] reality? It's useless to me. Stupid body."

I was thinking about the story illustrated by Cassiopaeans/Frank about how sex was the reason for everything going wrong because it was "pleasuring the self." While I've never believed that sex was evil in absolute terms, I'd come around to the position that Frank's reading of the situation was correct for this planet in this time under these conditions, barring a few rare exceptions, because the universe does like diversity. Apparently my "emotional body," or "higher self," or whatever it is that I talk to when I have these things was getting tired of the BS and decided to make its presence known.

"How can sharing in the love of the Creator not be pleasurable," the foreign thought process asked sharply.
"Love? Are you crazy? That kind of love doesn't exist on this planet, at least not in quantities worth mentioning. The Cassiopaeans themselves said that almost no one finds love in this world. Sex is a physical craving focused on the self," I responded.
"Nonsense! You pleasure yourself by giving the pleasure you desire to another. Do you expect to spend the rest of you life masturbating? Is that your answer? Talk about pleasuring the self."
"Well..."
"No wells."
"What am I supposed to do? Walk up to some girl and be like, 'hey, want to try out some cosmic sex? I don't know much about it, but I have a few ideas.' 'Yeah Neil, I've been waiting for someone to ask me that, let's go.' Give me a freaking break."
"You have to start somewhere."
"No. I can't be vulnerable. I can't let someone else entrust their vulnerability to me. The most likely outcome is pain and despondency for both of us."
Where is your faith? Is that what you're going to tell your polar opposite while you wave them away into the darkness, condemning yourself in the process?"
"I don't have faith...in that. This conversation is over."
"Soon you may not have a choice."
"La-la-la. Conversation over, not listening."

The bubbling sensation in my chest was replaced by a sense of weight and rolling pressure, giving a sense of discord. The next day I bought Seven Nights. In the end, I decided to listen to the "other me." A little.

I considered this story to have absolutely no relevance to studying the books, but it is ultimately how I ended up participating. Considering the sidebar this thread has ended up on, it may have some relevance now. Now I'm going to shut up and read A Rake's Midnight Kiss.
 

Joe

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No, loreta, I talked to you, I quoted YOUR post. You present things as me being nasty with Perlou. It's to you that I talked.

Well then you were nasty to Loreta. Specifcally, this sentence.

It's good to not expect everything on a plate. Just having the infos we get here is a gold mine. What do you want more, feeding you directly in your mouth?

End of story. You can apologize if you like, but that IS the fact of the matter.
 

Joe

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So how can one be free from sexual cravings?

Seems like you're saying that there is no way to engage in sex that is not always a craving for self-gratification. That's obviously over-simplified and seems to reflect your own limited experience rather than a real struggle with and deeper understanding of the dynamics involved.
 

Adaryn

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Neil, your internal dialogue is incredibly similar to my own - and I've been having those conversations with myself for some time. I've been in conflict with myself over that particular issue. It's a constant struggle, a thorn in my side, an uphill battle. A sore spot that is pressed over and over, demanding attention. And the question that keeps coming back: "What should I do about it? How can I deal?" And the thoughts: "I may long for it, but I'm not ready. Actually, I'm not sure I even want it. It will never work. I'd rather be alone. It is safer that way. This is my resolution: I will stay alone. It is the right thing, the proper thing, the moral thing to do." It may work for a while, but it's only a patch-up. The issue, the internal conflict are still there, unresolved.

I've come to some realizations while reading The Madness of Lord Ian MacKenzie. It comes down to fear. It sounds obvious and simple, but practically, it's not. The character, Ian, is afraid that he can't love Beth - he believes he's incapable of love – and that he might / will hurt her eventually. He's also afraid that she won't love him, not like she loved her first husband, because he's mad, he's a freak. But he still asks her to marry him, just so (and that's what he says to himself) he can have something real in his life that'll bring him peace: her beside him. An anchor. He thinks he can only give physical love, so he gives her that. Yet his actions, the way he behaves with her (protecting her, being afraid for her, thinking of her well being) show that he's actually capable of love, and is learning. She's teaching him, by showing she accepts him exactly as he is. In the end, he finds peace, and tells her that she has set him free. He was plagued by shame, which made him incapable of looking at people directly, always averting his eyes. In the end, he's finally able to look into her eyes because the shame is gone. As Laura said, it's very symbolic.

You can only learn through practice. That's not to say any of us should just hook up with the first guy or girl that we "like" and who crosses our path – or start dating or whatnot. I still have no answer to how we're supposed to deal with those energies of longing/yearning. But who knows what certain realizations and resolutions of internal conflicts through reading those stories and reflecting upon them might bring for us (I mean, those of us who are struggling with it) both personally and on a more global level?
 

reilpmeit

The Force is Strong With This One
I feel very sorry for you @reilpmeit.
Why?
Why?
Life is religion. Life experiences reflect how one interacts with God. Those who are asleep are those of little faith in terms of their interaction with the creation. Some people think that the world exists for them to overcome or ignore or shut out. For those individuals, the worlds will cease. They will become exactly what they give to life. They will become merely a dream in the "past." People who pay strict attention to objective reality right and left, become the reality of the "Future." (02-09-28)
What Cs said about reading or listening things which comes from negative sources,while thinking that it comes from positive,that we should do it or not? Or that we could approach , but how?



You reasoning tells me something about you. "Some could argue that for those romantic novels,it's not all about sex,"

One does not have to argue. It's simply true. There is a lot more. And yet you have selected just "sex" Like anything else but sex is not even worthy of your attention. I see it as a defective thinking. Well, I am a physycist/mathematician, so you may say that I selectively choose to address the plausible defect in your thinking. Perhaps, but I consider it as a really serious defect. That I feel obliged to point it out.
But the hook to reader is on sex/sexual innuendo.
As a matematician you know that, if you from one equation,change any given variable,the result can vary vastly. As experiment I suggest tou you to edit any of those novel,remove every sexual stuff,and stuff that has to do with it,and re-read it again. And than you will see that these novels are just empty shells,without "meat" in it,and it is true for most of them,if not by default. They are made for easy money.

@reilpmeit

Experiencing sexuality depends on the individual. For instance, if you stop eating, it doesn't mean that you go to the 4th Density, because of it. It can be quite different; you may have to wait for certain lessons in your lifetime (in 3D) and by killing yourself because of lack of food you will not have occasion to learn those lessons.
To put it lightly,what sweets are for body,sex is for soul.As sugars makes your body unhealty,same for sex,it makes your soul unhealthly. And they both "taste" real good!

In a sense, the same thing is with sex and sexuality. Not lack of sex is the solution, but gain a point of balance and for everyone those point of balance is different. If you lose your sex apatite or interested in the opposite sex you can loose also the possibility to learn a lesson. The key is a balance between the spirit and the body. Of course, I can tell that that balance looks different in one person, and differently in another.

The question is not that you could lose sexual appetite. Spontaneously that to happen is not even possible.When you really try and do things the right way,why appetite is still there? Than when you really maximaize attention,both quantitatively and qualitatively,answers happen.It is not only about sex,but about many things.You see your patterns and of others,and why things are in way they are.When you recognize that reality is more fantastical than any fantasy, Matrix movie becomes kids movie.

Maybe there are people on this planet who do not have sex and do not "abuse" of sex in any way, like through dissociating thoughts. They are VERY close to the STO, and they simply do not need it. But for most of the people if you, for instance, would ban them a possibility to experience their sexuality this would destroy them, not help them.
Strictly speaking,abuse of sex is anything that doesn't serves for contunuation of human race (and even that is in question).I know it is passé for more than half millenium,but If you use sex for pleasure it is abuse.But that is not main point.
Sex allows souls willing to experience STS reality,to be incarnated. It is one of tools of STS. And this story is old as legend of Adam and Eve.

It happens like that because people and generally every life in the universe need balance. The specific human being should discover what is his point of balance, and step by step move this level of balance into more spiritual life and prevail in his physicality (of course, first, if this is his choice, in any case).
The balance can be achieved in not very long time,if someone puts constant attention in and around themselves.
 

Ellipse

The Living Force
FOTCM Member
I'm saying that concentrating on sex and food is good way to chain spirit to matter. Once that you have sex in mind,soul (counsciousness unit) don't want to think about spiritual,or STO ideas.It just want to consume,it becames STS
I only talked about how to get rid off sexual cravings,without repressing it.
Problem is it can't be transferred to something creative(or rather it can be for someone "loves" and enjoys living STS life,for nefarious purposes)
You are playing with very dangerous fire here. In many "circles" this is considered dark arts,and for a good reason.
So you definitively think that sex can only be experimented in an STS way?
 
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