What? No, really. Usually the people with your reaction have some objection or something that bothers them. I myself have nothing against the majority of normal Serbian people, but I have everything against opssesive and aggressive nationalism, that led to war in my counntry.
Russia's behavior in these crazy times
- Thread starter GreyCat
- Start date
Ina
The Living Force
G R E A T find, Thank You! You made my day!
Makes sense. Youre right about mass media. They tend to skew the picture like that. But it begs the question why did he take action NOW? Something must have changed, something we do not see. Also I must add that if I had been in Putins place, I would have probably nuked the west at least a hundred times in the last 20 years, as a response for their provocations. He for sure has extensively more nerve and patience then I have. I guess the core of this post of mine is the question how such a man with seemingly unhuman patience, how and why he turned around and gone to war now? Something doesnt add up here.
Well I have been at this bar at least since 2002, my friend.
Yes, I worded it like that intentional, I wanted it to be a light hearted question. However, please note that I never said "Putin should be obliterated into dust", but rather I have stated a fact that NATO just might obliterate him. An observation. Also if that happened, the expression "I wouldn't shed a tear" means that I'm indifferent to it. Why indifferent? Because I would be hard pressed to care for a human that threatened to wipe out the world with nuclear weapons. That is a big no-no in my book, and signals an individual with some personal problems. I know that might not be popular here on this forum, but its simply my opinion. I had some sympathy for him, however that evaporated when he started threatening with nuclear weapons.
Am I right? I dont know. But when we wee out the "follow the party line" and "sacred cow" responses, there really are some interesting, free thinking people out here. Those are the responses that Icare about and form which I can learn something.
To have strong pacifist sentiments is humane and understandable. But the same time we need to be aware of the fact that we live in a different reality, much less humane in many respects. A mature attitude is, in my opinion, to leave the sentiments where they belong and not let them affect our thinking and assessments of the reality.
That particular war was started by Ukraine, and more precisely by the Ukrainian Banderites and other brands of Nazi (by their own admission) generously bred and helped by the West. Since 2014, they kept killing the Donbass population, indiscriminately, assassinating their leaders, destroying their homes, schools and infrastructure. To use your own words, whatever they call it, there is no justification for their unprovoked actions.
Sorry, I personally cannot comprehend how someone who claims to "know full well the background of the situation" can the same time perceive the Donbas people together with Russian military forces (openly and officially asked to come and help to end the slaughter) as the ones who started the war. There must be some serious cognitive dissonance going on IMO.
That's generous of you. But how would you see them defending themselves? Same way they have been so far for the last eight long years? You want them keep talking to the other side which has no intention to listen and whos only intention is to annihilate them? For how many years to come and how many more thousands of Donbass people killed? So far it amounts to a whole population of a town of a decent size or a small city. How much more evil needs to be done to them for you to see it necessary to put your antiwar sentiments aside and see the reality and the aggressors for what they are? And let's not forget that they've been killing not only in Donbass. Many Ukrainians lost their lives for honest journalism or pro-Russian sentiments across the country. And frankly, I have a bit of a problem with considering those who "just like to kill" (as on the video I posted yesterday) human beings. Well, humans they may be, but no way they can ever be humane.
I think what might not be popular on this forum is inability (or unwillingness) to discern between a narrative (and/or pulling out one of very few arguments left that can make people stop and think) and reality. So far as history shows, the only country that didn't hesitate to use nuclear weapon is the US. And it wasn't even done in order to defend themselves.
Not really, to continue with this analogy, your posts read like you've been lurking through the windows of this bar and overhearing bits of conversations happening inside. But it hasn't been enough for you to understand what exactly the conversations have been about because you clearly got it quite wrong.
You can of course argue that it's not true, but to be honest most of my friends who have never heard of this forum or Laura could write exactly the same "assessment" of the current situation as you have written. And they too consider themselves to be well informed and distrustful of the mainstream media.
Reading a few transcripts and maybe a few random threads form time to time doesn't make you a close follower of Laura's work. Applying what she preaches, and what she herself applies, does. It would therefore help you if you accepted that you don't have the whole banana, and you spent some time (a decent amount even) reading through the Ukraine thread as well as relevant articles on SOTT. If you truly ARE one of us, like you claim you are, you will do just that because discovering the truth is important to you. Otherwise you may be very disappointed when responses to your opinions aren't what you expect tehm to be.
Your case seems to prove that fence sitting and reading without active participation and networking just aren't enough. And given the speed with which the world is disintegrating I'd say this is the last call to hop on the ship before it sails. I'd love to see you make it, but take it or leave it, the choice is yours: Civil War in Ukraine: Western Empire vs Russia
Pearce
Jedi Master
My personal feelings regarding Putin's nuclear statement, I read as him reminding the world that "you may have them, but I have them too." I truly wished we lived in a world where they were never discovered, much less excitedly pursued by many nations since that first drop. Because although the US may not wave them around everytime they invade a country (which happens alot) the implicit understanding is that they are always there, lurking in the background. After all, if what has come to light is true, then it was the US that dropped the bomb on Japan not because we needed to in order to win, but because they simply wanted to show the world "who's the boss." When you sit with that realization for awhile, it's obvious who is the biggest threat to the world regarding the nuclear option.
The other understanding I have when I step back, is that while this is undoubtedly a research forum first and foremost, personal feelings about speech and debate aside, the owners and moderators have a really big job of keeping this forum alive for us all. If they were to be seen as hosting hostile rhetoric, it would instantly be shut down and we'd all lose in that. Therefore, as a sign of understanding and appreciation for the space they have provided us, I think it's important we remember to respect the massive undertaking they have on their hands and choose words that won't damage that ability for us to be here and learn. We also don't want this place to become Twitter 2.0, which can easily happen if our language devolves into that kind of rhetoric.
The last point I try to keep in mind, and I'm not always perfect, is to remember that no matter who seems like they are in control on the world stage, it's the Divine Mind, or universe, or whatever you wish to call it, that is truly in control. That means that no matter what happens, it serves a purpose bigger than all of us. The only way you "lose" in that is if you, or me, or anyone, let's themselves be blinded by emotion to the point that the lessons are missed or not integrated.
We aren't here in this life to control the outcome, but to control our responses to it. If there is one phrase the C's have hammered on, is that "all there is, is lessons."
So let's all keep an open mind, temper our expectations and anticipations, and do our best to learn from each other. And with that I'll officially say "apologies GreyCat" for my initial reaction, and also thank you.
That's exactly what he has been avoiding. The rest is propaganda. And so are several of the points you have made so far.
By your own admission (and I'm sorry that you have to live through a war!), you obviously aren't very neutral about this. So, your original post isn't neutral, and neither is your reply to Laura above. And that causes a problem when trying to understand a problem. IF that is what you are trying to do. So, I would suggest that you take more time to read about this, and check the links others gave you, and THEN, if you actually have doubts, we discuss, eh? But you have to be honestly asking. Otherwise, there are 90% of websites and forums out there that will agree with you very easily. We're not too interested in that.
Well, is it not obvious to you that if you leave out the most important factors, then your conclusions are not really useful?
The Purple Grape
The Force is Strong With This One
You are focused on cause.
My comments were specific to effects from the cause(s).
It is quite possible to observe and make assessment of what is observed, without tracking down the why and how of suppression of free expression. Cause and correction for cause are a completely separate effort.
Let me use a metaphor here, see if that helps or not: If I observe a vehicle crash, and the deadly affects of said crash, and the chaos it creates as everyone rushes to help those injured, I can do so accurately and objectively without having to understand how it happened. Why the accident happened does not matter, what matters is how the results of the accident impact other humans and property and what we do to assist and help those impacted.
Another metaphor: If I wind the spring overly tight on an old mechanical watch (yeah, what are those now days, right?
) tight, to the point where it binds and the movements fail to move, when I open up the watch I have to deal with an overly wound spring that is just waiting to pop out and possibly cause harm in the process. I don't need to know why the spring got wound too tight, because cause is not important in the remedy. Cause is important once the watch is put back together in order to not make the same mistake.Any student of history I think will understand what I conveyed about the energy that releases in chaotic and often destructive manner after a population has been suppressed by force for years, sometimes decades or longer. It has literally been happening as nations/empires build, become corrupt, and then collapse or are taken down by outside forces for thousands of years. You know what is happening when when things unwind like this suddenly and drastically? A rebalancing after years, decades, or even centuries imbalance in how the citizens of a nation have been treated/oppressed by those in control.
Re-balancing is what I am discussing in my comments, not how things got so out of balance to begin with. Balance is a well established topic in C sessions, so I would hope fellow members grasp what I am expressing here.
Ina
The Living Force
You are right, but not quite. There is the falling apart, but in my experience it was a staged violent release that from the outside looked exactly like a revolution because it was broadcasted on TV 24 out of 24 trough direct communication between the instantly formed National Salvation Front Comitee and all population that had a TV.
1989, December 22nd, Bucharest. Big organized meeting with about 50 to 80 thousand people in front of the Romanian Communist Party, Central Comitee Building. Ceausescu, was to announce ceremoniously the best news ever, the complete repayment of Romania's external debts and a coming Cristmas with real food and even oranges and bananas in the shops besides the 80% soy salami and tin food. He did not get to do it as somewhere in the crowds well placed, various individuals started chanting slogans against him. It was an interesting provocation as it changed into pushes and fist exchanges and then panic and the departure that concluded with the arest and hastend execution of Nicolae and Elena Ceausescu.
It must have been around midday, and in spite of the warm sun that was making the day quite festive, I was worried about my dad as he was working in a building a few hundred meters from the square with the incident. I hada sigh of relief when I saw him coming from the balcony, but I still had a bad feeling, which I understood the moment he told me that he was escorted at gun point from the building as was everyone working there. There were already security personnel and civilians with guns deployed all over. At about 5 my mother came from work, telling us about the army trucks giving AK47s to population. Meanwhile on TV the Revolution was commencing. My parents were both very calm, probably remembering the War. Neighbours were quiet, probably glued to the TV like us.
Two days and three dramatic days followed with tanks and light artillery shelling the National Museum of Art the formal Royal Palace, the Universitary Library and the other buildings surrounding the bad memory square as well as the TV building, the Radio Building, the telecom building and well chosen places in majority of the big cities Timisoara, Brasov, Ploiesti.
And the normal people were calm. The second day in the evening we even went to queue for meat at a corner butchery with trassors flying over our heads.
The perceived violence seen from outside, is the result of a certain script with well defined actors and a large number of extras that creates maximum impact.
However, all comes apart. And here is where you are right because it does. But it does not come apart just like that. First there was a political vacuum but people paid attention only to remember the new ones in charge to whom to address the usual swear words. Then it was the fashionable opportunism when everyone was previously dissident. Then came the monetary instability, the inflation, the structural reform the entrance in NATO the monetary reform 6 zeroes cut, and the squeeze to enter the very narrow door into EU. Even 30 something years later, Romania is still falling apart.
We left the country two years after the Revolution, embarking on a rapid fall apart but fully embracing discovery, learning and rebuilding our own future.
To live and learn through and from society collapse one needs to focus on discovering the best path being guided by personal values and common bonds with loved ones. There is no room and no time for in general reflections, and this is where I'm afraid that your vantage point is not very efficient in surviving, although it provides a certain dose of self preservation, quite inhibiting though, IMHO.
My lesson learned is that one needs to be fearless. We were young and fool, but like God makes nests for the blind storks, so it gave us full complement of our faculties blinding us from fear.
Back to Ukraine, there are people that left, there are people that took guns there is the new government in the wings, there is the violence that we see from the distance. I do not see the in general. But it is normal as everyone is different in so many different ways, and in a constant state of flux which actually makes possible the split second connection that allows the materialization of the intention to communicate and understand others.
Life always finds a way.
Well, I will give you another metaphor. I observe an illusionist make an airplane disappear. So, my observing the results objectively and accurately from what I observed is, an airplane was made to disappear. This was the effect of his actions that I observed.
In this case I am not concerned about the cause or method of the action, only the results of the action.
In this case I am not concerned about the cause or method of the action, only the results of the action.
Ina
The Living Force
Totally unrelated. You might enjoy this link. :)
Internet Archive Search: creator:"Harry Houdini Collection (Library of Congress) DLC"
Haiku
Jedi Master
Setting up the stage. That is what is happening right now.
The story is another repeat of past, the lack of creativity on their part is their failure, but gives us an advantage. With enough knowledge, one can interpret the ending, which will always be similar.
The need for those of us, is to have setting that makes us question the fiber of this reality. This is all supporting our need to complete the “Lesson”.
So, we need those that question this reality. And we need those that are finding their way and to help others that are still looking for their answer to this lesson. These questions reaffirm our understanding of this reality.
It all helps those that do not know, those that know some and those that know more. No question is off limits and I see no reason to not have them. There is nothing wrong in asking questions of this nature and we should not refrain from asking them. Those that ask these questions are in need of a better answer than the one that they have found. In many cases it is life experiences, lessons, that drive these statements.
Remember this world, this reality, is our classroom to do these lessons. The stage has to be set by all of those that are not progressing to the next level. It is in their plan to do this for the few that are climbing the ladder, like you may be doing. It is that they just do not understand their part in it and what they are doing for us.
War is one of these grand stages that is done just for our learning, tough learning. Those that have been through one, know the reality in them. Wars are built on lies, fought on lies, won on lies. Then you rewrite the story line so they are the good guy, because that is what they do. Our lesson is to see through the lies and understand them for what they are, and that is why you have come here.
No question or point of view is wrong, it helps all that are climbing the ladder in this reality. Answers are facets of information, knowledge, that need to be sorted out by each and every one of you, in your own way. It cannot be any other way. Our difficulty is hampered by our pre-assumed connotations and acceptance of those lies. We have to learn to see through them, Haiku …
The story is another repeat of past, the lack of creativity on their part is their failure, but gives us an advantage. With enough knowledge, one can interpret the ending, which will always be similar.
The need for those of us, is to have setting that makes us question the fiber of this reality. This is all supporting our need to complete the “Lesson”.
So, we need those that question this reality. And we need those that are finding their way and to help others that are still looking for their answer to this lesson. These questions reaffirm our understanding of this reality.
It all helps those that do not know, those that know some and those that know more. No question is off limits and I see no reason to not have them. There is nothing wrong in asking questions of this nature and we should not refrain from asking them. Those that ask these questions are in need of a better answer than the one that they have found. In many cases it is life experiences, lessons, that drive these statements.
Remember this world, this reality, is our classroom to do these lessons. The stage has to be set by all of those that are not progressing to the next level. It is in their plan to do this for the few that are climbing the ladder, like you may be doing. It is that they just do not understand their part in it and what they are doing for us.
War is one of these grand stages that is done just for our learning, tough learning. Those that have been through one, know the reality in them. Wars are built on lies, fought on lies, won on lies. Then you rewrite the story line so they are the good guy, because that is what they do. Our lesson is to see through the lies and understand them for what they are, and that is why you have come here.
No question or point of view is wrong, it helps all that are climbing the ladder in this reality. Answers are facets of information, knowledge, that need to be sorted out by each and every one of you, in your own way. It cannot be any other way. Our difficulty is hampered by our pre-assumed connotations and acceptance of those lies. We have to learn to see through them, Haiku …
