Self Remembering

[Ollie]

So far, much of the to and fro recently on this thread has gone right over my head, I don't understand what you mean, or what you are describing either. But that is okay, I am not so bright, but I can learn.

Sorry, but I had to laugh when I read this. I guess we're in the same boat Alada. :D

Count me in too.

Well I certainly hope it's a big boat, 'cause I'm going to have to hop in with you guys. It's a proven fact, the more I read (including on this forum) and do, the dumber I get. I remember I was practically a genus back when I was a teenager...I knew everything, but it went steadily downhill from there. :(


Mod's note: Edited to fix the quotation boxes

Make that another!!! :D

 

[thevenusian]

So far, much of the to and fro recently on this thread has gone right over my head, I don't understand what you mean, or what you are describing either. But that is okay, I am not so bright, but I can learn.

Count me in, too.

Isn't there an important distinction to be made between self-remembering as a practice, and Self-remembering as a state of being? It seems to me that there is much to talk about when it relates to the former and not so much with the latter, since that is largely an unknown, at least for me.

I am of the impression that 'self-remembering' is a practice, the purpose of which is to begin to make headway in establishing a continuity of awareness. It is remembering to be present, and to begin noticing when you're not.

It starts in the mind, with thought- literally remembering as often as possible to be present and aware of what is happening right now. Remember (the only way to start is to think this) to observe the feelings, the thoughts, sensations in the body, what is going on in the environment around me, in others around me. For me at least, and I am not drugged, numb or bored, this is an ongoing challenge. I think about this often throughout each day, and yet I feel as though I am a long, long way from having unbroken, continuous remembering for even one hour out of a day. The one thing I do notice growing slowly is the quality of awareness. I notice more than I did before.

As for the actual remembering of Self- not just thinking or practicing, but actually being in the driver's seat of one's higher self, that is another matter altogether. In my life I may have had a few extremely brief flashes of what I suspect may be a glimpse of that, but they have only served to impress upon me what a nearly impossible task it is to get there from here.

Along the way, there isn't one understanding that somehow pulls it all together. Its more that whatever I think I understand now keeps changing with the addition of still more data, more attention, so that later what I thought I understood seems kind of limited and sometimes even silly. I don't see an end to this process.

 

[paralleloscope]

Count me in on that boat aswell.

My practice is still in early days. Cannot distinguish clearly between all centers, at least not real time.

I am a bit unsure on changing of behaviours before the governing patterns are observed in relation to all centers, I am getting mixed messages on this one.

Just read this part by Jeanne De Salzmann and felt it could fit here.

I exist without knowing how. My existence itself is a question to which I am obliged to respond, wether or not I so wish. My response is in the way I exist at the very moment, and the kind of action in which I am engaged, At every degree of ar´wareness my response is strictly conditioned by my state of being. The challenge in the question is alwaysnew. It is the response that is old, creating a separation from the question. This is because in the response the ordinary "I" is in play.

What does it mean to "remember oneself"? It is not to remember the person I represent- my body, my position in life, my obligations. It is to become conscious of my inner being. I wish to be whole, unified, one, what I essentially am. When I feel this wish, it is as though my whole orientation changes. In all the parts of myself, freely and without my doing anything, a movement takes place toward a certain Presence. For this movement to follow its course I have to obey and be wholly attunes. Its force depends entirely on the tranquility of all my centres and on the freedom of my attention. I need to feel that this Presence forms itself in me.

In looking, I begin to see that I have to be in contact with all my centers at the same time. Sometimes in one part, sometimes in another, the flow of energy is too strong or too weak. If I am too much in my head, the movement does not take place. Too much in my feeling or too much in my body, it is the same. There must be a corresponding intensity everywhere. What is important is a onscious attention, of a kind that I do not know. I can feel this only in quitness, in a tranquility that is greater and greater. THe Presence which is here acts on me, takes charge of me. But I must wish it, will it. This is the presence of "I"

I learn to purify my power of seeing, not by dismissing what is undesirable or turning away and settling on the agreeable. I learn to see everything without refusing the details. I learn to see clarity. I see that all things have the same importance, and I accept failure as good for me. I begin again a thousand times. Everything depends on this seeing.

I am not trying to find or to do something. But I feel the weight of the imagination of myself, the weight of this image that I feel compelled to sustain all the time in a violent battle to preserve its continuity. And behind it, I am aware of emptiness, a void....I do not know who I am. Yet I cannot know the emptiness because the place is occupied.When I see this, the wish to know arises in me- not to know a specific thing, but to know who is there, what I am at this very moment. The place is taken. I feel it in the tensions, in the ideas that cross my mind without stopping, in the waves of emotions that respond. I do not try to resist, nor to withdraw or distract myself. This is the way I am. I accept it. And in living it, I see it as it is, as if I see further, through it, becoming more and more free. I see my inattention. I realize that my being depends on this power of eeing, and that I am free not to take one part of myself for the whole, free not to be isolated in one part.

I need to develop an attention that is pure and sufficiently intense not to be diverted by subjective reactions. I return tirelessly to that root of my perception. In this movement my attention purifies itself and little by little eliminates the elements foreign to a direct perception. Only the impression of reality remains.

 

[Buddy]

[Elvis lip]
Thank ya.
Thank ya very much.
Thank ya.
[/Elvis lip]

Reeeeal funny guyz. :D
So, what's so weird about a weirdo (me) wanting to discuss the framework, or cognitive underpinnings of the self-remembering process? We know it's there, right? Even imagination must be physiological with neuron activity, B vitamins being used up, etc.

I may be somewhat less than coherent from a super-long exhausting day, but I will elaborate, so just let me know where to pause for laughter, OK? :D

Seriously, all I think I am describing is the inductive cognitive loop. When it's present, you are simply aware of being aware of everything (as distinct from just being aware). That awareness of being aware is the self monitor that can be present when all the information - the whole scenario of what's going on around you - that is gathered by the senses and fed to the brain (which you can interpret and respond to mechanically) is looped back in - this time with you in the picture as part of the situation with the sense of freedom to be and do just about anything and with the feeling of being in relationship with everything in some way.

This "extra" loop that some people in our daily lives do not demonstrate any existence of, allows you to be aware of yourself so that you can notice when you're making a complete mess of something; when everything is going like it's supposed to and when someone is expecting you to follow a rule or procedure in favor of exercising judgement because it's the objective that is important, not avoiding blame.

You feel as if you are not limited to any role; nor are you limited in any way to behaving in any stereotypical pattern just because you always did or were trained to. It's sort of like the sense of self has expanded outside of a trapped state.

The feeling is also one of energy and exuberance like in childhood, only with the advantage of having much more life experience. You feel as if 'you' are 'out there' in a way that you are connected to, and somehow in the space around you, where there is plenty of energy and life! You feel yourself as part of everything and connected to life everywhere. You feel alive and most all perceptual phenomena, including all the objective and subjective internal sensations are vivid or more intense in some way! Even your skin seems more sensitive to touch.

If you look at a boot, you can remember everything about boots that you understand and know - including the slightly-oversize brown cowboy boots your friend D.B. was wearing that beautiful summer day in 2nd grade when you were outside playing chase - your favorite activity.

Depending on the mood or activity of the moment, you can remember anything that had a significant association with it - including past conversations with a spouse, subjects discussed, things you said, things you should have said or could have said or done better.

You can remember yourself as you were, as you are now and anything else you've ever experienced and really noticed at any other time you were feeling this alive. When you know that you are really, truly feeling this, then toward others, the first thing you want to do is help them achieve/enjoy this state and all the life that it is possible to feel. The last thing you want to do is anything that would lead them to "fold their wings and bow their heads" to your "authority" - to hurt them in any way that would rob them of any of their life force. What would be the point? It's not my property it seems; rather, it all seems to belong to the one "Sun Absolute".

It just depends on where you want to guide the focal point of your attention, because, being in the present moment where the sensation of time passing seems replaced by the feel of living events happening, you feel as if there are no artificial inhibitions or restraints on the acumen of your visual, mental or other sensory perceptions.

Self-Remembering = a dynamic awareness of knowing what you know and can perceive. Perceptions of the past and present all alive and present in the moment because as the data of the moment gets processed, everything in the memory that is accessible gets drawn into the loop and blended in as well.

That sort of describes much of it the best I can right now. Since it all just seems so instantaneous, I can easily make an error while trying to lay it out - especially as that is not my strong point (most of the time I dislike having to focus so much for so long but I know it's a self-discipling/self-training issue). I'm about exhausted from my work and need some sleep. Just ask about anything that needs further clarification.

Can anyone see how this state that feels like you're a part of Universe, itself, could be transposed or translated into an esoteric context? I'm really curious, but I'm not totally convinced I'm not the looney tune 'they' think I am. :D

 

[anart]

[Elvis lip]
Thank ya.
Thank ya very much.
Thank ya.
[/Elvis lip]

Reeeeal funny guyz. :D
So, what's so weird about a weirdo (me) wanting to discuss the framework, or cognitive underpinnings of the self-remembering process? We know it's there, right? Even imagination must be physiological with neuron activity, B vitamins being used up, etc.

I may be somewhat less than coherent from a super-long exhausting day, but I will elaborate, so just let me know where to pause for laughter, OK? :D

Not sure I follow you.

Seriously, all I think I am describing is the inductive cognitive loop. When it's present, you are simply aware of being aware of everything (as distinct from just being aware). That awareness of being aware is the self monitor that can be present when all the information - the whole scenario of what's going on around you - that is gathered by the senses and fed to the brain (which you can interpret and respond to mechanically) is looped back in - this time with you in the picture as part of the situation with the sense of freedom to be and do just about anything and with the feeling of being in relationship with everything in some way.

This "extra" loop that some people in our daily lives do not demonstrate any existence of, allows you to be aware of yourself so that you can notice when you're making a complete mess of something; when everything is going like it's supposed to and when someone is expecting you to follow a rule or procedure in favor of exercising judgement because it's the objective that is important, not avoiding blame.

You feel as if you are not limited to any role; nor are you limited in any way to behaving in any stereotypical pattern just because you always did or were trained to. It's sort of like the sense of self has expanded outside of a trapped state.

The feeling is also one of energy and exuberance like in childhood, only with the advantage of having much more life experience. You feel as if 'you' are 'out there' in a way that you are connected to, and somehow in the space around you, where there is plenty of energy and life! You feel yourself as part of everything and connected to life everywhere. You feel alive and most all perceptual phenomena, including all the objective and subjective internal sensations are vivid or more intense in some way! Even your skin seems more sensitive to touch.

If you look at a boot, you can remember everything about boots that you understand and know - including the slightly-oversize brown cowboy boots your friend D.B. was wearing that beautiful summer day in 2nd grade when you were outside playing chase - your favorite activity.

Depending on the mood or activity of the moment, you can remember anything that had a significant association with it - including past conversations with a spouse, subjects discussed, things you said, things you should have said or could have said or done better.

You can remember yourself as you were, as you are now and anything else you've ever experienced and really noticed at any other time you were feeling this alive. When you know that you are really, truly feeling this, then toward others, the first thing you want to do is help them achieve/enjoy this state and all the life that it is possible to feel. The last thing you want to do is anything that would lead them to "fold their wings and bow their heads" to your "authority" - to hurt them in any way that would rob them of any of their life force. What would be the point? It's not my property it seems; rather, it all seems to belong to the one "Sun Absolute".

It just depends on where you want to guide the focal point of your attention, because, being in the present moment where the sensation of time passing seems replaced by the feel of living events happening, you feel as if there are no artificial inhibitions or restraints on the acumen of your visual, mental or other sensory perceptions.

Self-Remembering = a dynamic awareness of knowing what you know and can perceive. Perceptions of the past and present all alive and present in the moment because as the data of the moment gets processed, everything in the memory that is accessible gets drawn into the loop and blended in as well.

That sort of describes much of it the best I can right now. Since it all just seems so instantaneous, I can easily make an error while trying to lay it out - especially as that is not my strong point (most of the time I dislike having to focus so much for so long but I know it's a self-discipling/self-training issue). I'm about exhausted from my work and need some sleep. Just ask about anything that needs further clarification.

Can anyone see how this state that feels like you're a part of Universe, itself, could be transposed or translated into an esoteric context? I'm really curious, but I'm not totally convinced I'm not the looney tune 'they' think I am. :D

Sounds like you have some 'feel good chemicals' releasing in your brain and you're taking that as proof of something.

To be honest, there is nothing you've described above that is unusual for my state of waking consciousness, other than "the feeling is also one of energy and exuberance like in childhood" - I suppose I've seen too much to feel like I did as a child. Maybe someday I'll get there... The other difference I notice between my personal experience and yours is that I KNOW there are things I'm still missing and unaware of and that I'm not "accessing everything alive in the present moment". I can tell there are still gaps in my awareness because I can sense them and I can see the effects in my life of those gaps in awareness like I can see the wind move the trees. I don't know exactly what they are, but I Know they are there.

From what you've said, you seem to be so confident in your perception that you really think you're seeing it all. Can you conceive of the possibility that this might be proof that you're not? Perhaps it's not, but I think if you could begin to really - deeply - question your own intellect and your own perceptions it might just catapult you forward. fwiw.

Added: I also think, if you're interested, that learning to write for others (especially when you don't want to and really just want to write how it makes you feel good about yourself to write) would be a really valuable thing for you. It might even allow more of the Real you to come through in your writing, instead of that 'you' that must be seen as the most intellectual guy on a thread. That's, if you're interested, of course.

 

[Buddy]

The other difference I notice between my personal experience and yours is that I KNOW there are things I'm still missing and unaware of

That was an unintended effect of the way I wrote, I suppose. I can be acutely aware of what I don't know and that I don't know something.

and that I'm not "accessing everything alive in the present moment".

What do you mean? Did I say that?

From what you've said, you seem to be so confident in your perception that you really think you're seeing it all.

What do you mean "seeing it all?" I would never claim that and I don't see all of anything and I'm only talking about what can be known from what can be seen. Unless I'm not. In which case, I might just be ready for the funny farm.

Can you conceive of the possibility that this might be proof that you're not? Perhaps it's not, but I think if you could begin to really - deeply - question your own intellect and your own perceptions it might just catapult you forward. fwiw.

Yes, I can, and have, conceived of this possibility and I do question and I like catapulting.

Added: I also think, if you're interested, that learning to write for others (especially when you don't want to and really just want to write how it makes you feel good about yourself to write) would be a really valuable thing for you. I might even allow more of the Real you to come through in your writing, instead of that 'you' that must be seen as the most intellectual guy on the thread. That's, if you're interested, of course.

Yes, I'm interested! I'm not sure I get how I write like "how it makes you feel good about yourself to write)", but I could take your word for it, I suppose. Thanks for the feedback. I was expecting and looking forward to it, but you probably don't believe that. Good night. :)

 

[Harold]

So far, much of the to and fro recently on this thread has gone right over my head, I don't understand what you mean, or what you are describing either. But that is okay, I am not so bright, but I can learn.

Sorry, but I had to laugh when I read this. I guess we're in the same boat Alada. :D

Count me in too.

Well I certainly hope it's a big boat, 'cause I'm going to have to hop in with you guys. It's a proven fact, the more I read (including on this forum) and do, the dumber I get. I remember I was practically a genus back when I was a teenager...I knew everything, but it went steadily downhill from there. :(


Mod's note: Edited to fix the quotation boxes

Make that another!!! :D

Phew! Can I hop aboard too?

Like I think I `remember` I said earlier, I`m still just trying to remember to smile, watch the tone of my voice, the words I use, my stride when I walk, my body language etc.... stuff like that. Be a neutralizing force... which is being externally considerate as far as I can tell. And LOTS of recapitulation. A few apologies when necessary. Watching out for the feel good sensations... umm thats about it for now. Remember to be me in the moment. I did see one of my centers acting on behalf of another center once. Just making observations for now... gotta say, doing all this really cuts down on the internal negative programs:)

This is a great thread though... Im getting some of the stuff being shared, but most of the time I am lost in this conversation.

So yes, feel free to dumb it down for the peanut gallery. :)

One question, if I may....

Seriously, all I think I am describing is the inductive cognitive loop. When it's present, you are simply aware of being aware of everything (as distinct from just being aware). That awareness of being aware is the self monitor that can be present when all the information - the whole scenario of what's going on around you - that is gathered by the senses and fed to the brain (which you can interpret and respond to mechanically) is looped back in - this time with you in the picture as part of the situation with the sense of freedom to be and do just about anything and with the feeling of being in relationship with everything in some way.

Bud, could you please give a practical everyday example of this.... cause I don`t get it... maybe it is too beyond me for now, but if not I would like to know what you mean on some of the things you are describing. This might help me to get into all the definitions of things discussed here. I have read ISOTOM a couple of times (almost) and am very interested in self-remembering. For me I tend to need to describe things in a practical everyday way.... sorry. :)

 

[Alada]

[Elvis lip]
Thank ya.
Thank ya very much.
Thank ya.
[/Elvis lip]

Reeeeal funny guyz. :D
So, what's so weird about a weirdo (me) wanting to discuss the framework, or cognitive underpinnings of the self-remembering process? We know it's there, right? Even imagination must be physiological with neuron activity, B vitamins being used up, etc.

I may be somewhat less than coherent from a super-long exhausting day, but I will elaborate, so just let me know where to pause for laughter, OK? :D

Not sure I follow you.

Me either. There is a certain irony though that in a thread about self-remembering you get the above which is basically just defencive programs running.

Bud, maybe you can try again to simply explain for others, the way you write is so weighted toward your head and way of thinking that it does not convey much at all. We're talking about self-remembering, but where is the rest f you, all we have is the head!?

You were talking earlier in the thread about true understanding, well if you truly understand you should be able to explain it. If not, maybe its all in your head? Curious too that you dislike having to "focus so much for so long", how then did you work on self-remembering when it seems to have brought no development of Will/Attention with it?

 

[anart]

The other difference I notice between my personal experience and yours is that I KNOW there are things I'm still missing and unaware of

That was an unintended effect of the way I wrote, I suppose. I can be acutely aware of what I don't know and that I don't know something.

and that I'm not "accessing everything alive in the present moment".

What do you mean? Did I say that?

From what you've said, you seem to be so confident in your perception that you really think you're seeing it all.

What do you mean "seeing it all?" I would never claim that and I don't see all of anything and I'm only talking about what can be known from what can be seen. Unless I'm not. In which case, I might just be ready for the funny farm.

Can you conceive of the possibility that this might be proof that you're not? Perhaps it's not, but I think if you could begin to really - deeply - question your own intellect and your own perceptions it might just catapult you forward. fwiw.

Yes, I can, and have, conceived of this possibility and I do question and I like catapulting.

Added: I also think, if you're interested, that learning to write for others (especially when you don't want to and really just want to write how it makes you feel good about yourself to write) would be a really valuable thing for you. I might even allow more of the Real you to come through in your writing, instead of that 'you' that must be seen as the most intellectual guy on the thread. That's, if you're interested, of course.

Yes, I'm interested! I'm not sure I get how I write like "how it makes you feel good about yourself to write)", but I could take your word for it, I suppose. Thanks for the feedback. I was expecting and looking forward to it, but you probably don't believe that. Good night. :)

Thanks for explaining. I took phrases like "you are not limited to any role; nor are you limited in any way", "you are simply aware of being aware of everything " , "You feel as if 'you' are 'out there' in a way that you are connected to, and somehow in the space around you, where there is plenty of energy and life! You feel yourself as part of everything and connected to life everywhere.", "You can remember yourself as you were, as you are now and anything else you've ever experienced and really noticed at any other time you were feeling this alive." to mean that you honestly thought you were seeing it all and accessing everything since that's what it sounds like from what you've written.

I'm really glad to hear that is not the case and it was my misunderstanding you - since the idea that you honestly thought that was really disconcerting. I think what you're describing sounds a lot like your emotions finally getting into the picture, when you're used to using only your intellect (and your last two emails were much more helpful to understanding what you were trying to say than anything else you've written in this thread, even with the defensiveness, which is not unexpected). When you write from you - not from your pure intellect, it's just so much more clear there is no comparison.

 

[Mr. Premise]

Bud, maybe it would help if you could explain simply how your new awareness helps you learn the simple karmic lessons the C's say we are here to learn in order to graduate.

 

[Guardian]

Thanks for the feedback. I was expecting and looking forward to it, but you probably don't believe that.

After 3000+ posts, you'd kinda have to be an idiot not to ...and you're anything but an idiot Bud :)

 

[Alada]

So far, much of the to and fro recently on this thread has gone right over my head, I don't understand what you mean, or what you are describing either. But that is okay, I am not so bright, but I can learn.

Count me in, too.

Isn't there an important distinction to be made between self-remembering as a practice, and Self-remembering as a state of being? It seems to me that there is much to talk about when it relates to the former and not so much with the latter, since that is largely an unknown, at least for me.

Well like you I don't really know either. You'd imagine though that with enough practice, self-remembering would become the permanent guide for one's state of being. Rather like the idea of good vs evil when seen in the context of one's aim. Whatever helps me to remember myself is good, whatever helps me forget myself is evil. Over time one would be able to weed out the things that hinder and work on the things that help. So then Being - what you are - changes and grows.

[quote author=venusian]
I am of the impression that 'self-remembering' is a practice, the purpose of which is to begin to make headway in establishing a continuity of awareness. It is remembering to be present, and to begin noticing when you're not.

It starts in the mind, with thought- literally remembering as often as possible to be present and aware of what is happening right now. Remember (the only way to start is to think this) to observe the feelings, the thoughts, sensations in the body, what is going on in the environment around me, in others around me. For me at least, and I am not drugged, numb or bored, this is an ongoing challenge. I think about this often throughout each day, and yet I feel as though I am a long, long way from having unbroken, continuous remembering for even one hour out of a day. The one thing I do notice growing slowly is the quality of awareness. I notice more than I did before.
[/quote]

I don't quite know even 'where' it starts, as you're observing the mind / body / emotions at the same time. I agree that there's a long way to go on this road, how easily I can forget myself. Even when you make determined efforts, as Gurdjieff describes what you end up observing is that you do not remember yourself. I think maybe we have to keep really trying and get to a point where that one observation again and again shows the urgency and requirement to work even harder on the problem.

[quote author=venusian]
As for the actual remembering of Self- not just thinking or practicing, but actually being in the driver's seat of one's higher self, that is another matter altogether. In my life I may have had a few extremely brief flashes of what I suspect may be a glimpse of that, but they have only served to impress upon me what a nearly impossible task it is to get there from here.
[/quote]

I would echo the above, only ever very brief glimpses, but they make a very strong impression and give something to work towards, at least in terms of knowing there are possibilities.

[quote author=venusian]
Along the way, there isn't one understanding that somehow pulls it all together. Its more that whatever I think I understand now keeps changing with the addition of still more data, more attention, so that later what I thought I understood seems kind of limited and sometimes even silly. I don't see an end to this process.
[/quote]

Same here. The more I see, the more I see how mechanical I am, that I don't know so very much, that I easily fall asleep. It's frustrating, but I think we have to see as much of it as we can, get sick of it and gather enough determination to work against it. To make it my god, the first thing that is on my mind in the morning when I awake, even before my feet hit the floor - to remember myself.

 

[ana]

Seriously, all I think I am describing is the inductive cognitive loop. When it's present, you are simply aware of being aware of everything (as distinct from just being aware). That awareness of being aware is the self monitor that can be present when all the information - the whole scenario of what's going on around you - that is gathered by the senses and fed to the brain (which you can interpret and respond to mechanically) is looped back in - this time with you in the picture as part of the situation with the sense of freedom to be and do just about anything and with the feeling of being in relationship with everything in some way.

I think someway what you describe relates to "flashes" of self remembering states wich you sporadically experience.

"The third state of consciousness is self-remembering or self-consciousness or consciousness of one's being. It is usual to consider that we have this state of consciousness or that we can have it if we want it. Our science and philosophy have overlooked the fact that we do not possess this state of consciousness and that we cannot create it in ourselves by desire or decision alone.

"Both states of consciousness, sleep and the waking state, are equally subjective. Only by beginning to remember himself does a man really awaken. And then all surrounding life acquires for him a different aspect and a different meaning. He sees that it is the life of sleeping people, a life in sleep. All that men say, all that they do, they say and do in sleep. All this can have no value whatever. Only awakening and what leads to awakening has a value in reality

Now the trap here Bud is to believe that this state is permanently achieved, see:

It can be said without any exaggeration that at the present time the third state of consciousness occurs in man only in the form of very rare flashes and that it can be made more or less permanent in him only by means of special training.
"For most people, even for educated and thinking people, the chief obstacle in the way of acquiring self-consciousness consists in the fact that they think they possess it, that is, that they possess self-consciousness and everything connected with it; individuality in the sense of a permanent and unchangeable I, will, ability to do, and so on. It is evident that a man will not be interested if you tell him that he can acquire by long and difficult work something which, in his opinion, he already has. On the contrary he will think either that you are mad or that you want to deceive him with a view to personal gain.
"The two higher states of consciousness—'self-consciousness' and 'objective consciousness'—are connected with the functioning of the higher centers in man.

That sort of describes much of it the best I can right now. Since it all just seems so instantaneous, I can easily make an error while trying to lay it out - especially as that is not my strong point (most of the time I dislike having to focus so much for so long but I know it's a self-discipling/self-training issue).

That is the point Bud, in order to enlarge that state of self remembering you need to be able to focus for long. You see you experience it as something "instantaneous" wich later is dificult to convey and communicate to others because you are no longer in that state.

Furthermore someway you seem reluctant or afraid of becoming trapped in a specific "teaching" and that may be the reason why you try to achieve understanding using other fields such as cognitive psychology and other "languages" from the amount of info that you've been gathering.

As you flee from the work terms of this forum trying to make your own theories You are not able to translate and properly communicate whatever you've found and maybe inside yourself you believe it is more than what can be found in the work terms here in the forum when in fact it is not.
If you were to really focus on ISOTM and the work as done here you would be able to find the proper language to communicate with us and express your experiences more objectively so we can really communicate.

Hope it helps :)

 

[Palinurus]

When it's present, you are simply aware of being aware of everything (as distinct from just being aware). That awareness of being aware is the self monitor that can be present when all the information - the whole scenario of what's going on around you - that is gathered by the senses and fed to the brain (which you can interpret and respond to mechanically) is looped back in - this time with you in the picture as part of the situation with the sense of freedom to be and do just about anything and with the feeling of being in relationship with everything in some way.

This "extra" loop that some people in our daily lives do not demonstrate any existence of, allows you to be aware of yourself so that you can notice when you're making a complete mess of something; when everything is going like it's supposed to and when someone is expecting you to follow a rule or procedure in favor of exercising judgement because it's the objective that is important, not avoiding blame.

You feel as if you are not limited to any role; nor are you limited in any way to behaving in any stereotypical pattern just because you always did or were trained to. It's sort of like the sense of self has expanded outside of a trapped state.

The feeling is also one of energy and exuberance like in childhood, only with the advantage of having much more life experience. You feel as if 'you' are 'out there' in a way that you are connected to, and somehow in the space around you, where there is plenty of energy and life! You feel yourself as part of everything and connected to life everywhere. You feel alive and most all perceptual phenomena, including all the objective and subjective internal sensations are vivid or more intense in some way! Even your skin seems more sensitive to touch.

When I read this, I gathered that Bud was the subject of some form of expanded awareness with heightened presence and great lucidity all around. This sometimes happens to people who are fully concentrated to deliver an exceptional performance in arts or sports. I saw this happen twice and heard it described afterwards in similar language as Bud used. Both occasions were world records in athletics delivered by Colin Jackson (110 mtr hurdles in 12.91 sec - 20 Aug 1993) and Jonathan Edwards (triple jump of 18.16 mtr and 18.29 mtr - 7 Aug 1995) respectively.

In concerthalls this happens also on some occasions when all bits and pieces fall into their places and all circumstances prove to be ideal for a lifetime best. It's rather easy to recognise when you are an experienced listener. The artist in question and his colleagues also know and realise instantaneously 'it' is there.

From what I know, this special state of expanded awareness can also happen spontaneously to other people for no apparent reason. I would hesitate to call this 'self remembering' really, as it is a transient phenomenon and out of conscious control as to how it starts its course. FWIW.

 

[Buddy]

Hi all. I felt such warmth in my heart when I read the latest posts, I just wanted to cry. Thanks for responding. :)

Just for clarity, I'd like to say: the metaphor of the wings and bowed head was intended to convey my feeling about man's inhumanity to man - especially the mistreatment of small, innocent children. Also, the comment about disliking focus in certain ways is not saying anything about my regard for others; rather it's more likely my brain chemistry or a thalamus setting issue, such as what Thom Hartmann describes as "genetically determined differences in the set-point of the thalamus, which controls how “in touch” we each are with the sensory world". But I don't know for sure.

From my perspective, it is simply that focusing in the thinking center can be very hard at times unless there is loads of interest involved. It really feels like my sensory system is set to act from the idea that because there is so much going on around me at all times and so many perceptions to gather and so much to feel, it will miss something important if I take my attention off everything.

anart, the brain chemical thing could be an issue, but in a different way I suppose. I don't take the meds anymore. I feel strongly that I really don't want to be a part of a society that considers 'ADD' to be a disease (assuming that diagnosis was even correct). To me, I feel it as just a difference that allows a different perspective on so many things. I think Nature is not prejudiced that way. If it is really not a disease or disorder, then I'm simply a combination of biological and genetic 'settings' on a sliding scale of human variability. For that, I occasionally have to suffer difficulties in some interactions.

As an aside, it seems like to the same proportion that I really seem to feel life everywhere, I also feel the pain when people initiate mistreatment to others, no matter who or why, so even if/when brain chemicals are involved in the way I act and see things, it's definitely not all 'feel good stuff'. :(

Thanks for explaining. I took phrases like "you are not limited to any role; nor are you limited in any way", "you are simply aware of being aware of everything " , "You feel as if 'you' are 'out there' in a way that you are connected to, and somehow in the space around you, where there is plenty of energy and life! You feel yourself as part of everything and connected to life everywhere.", "You can remember yourself as you were, as you are now and anything else you've ever experienced and really noticed at any other time you were feeling this alive." to mean that you honestly thought you were seeing it all and accessing everything since that's what it sounds like from what you've written.

I see that better, now that I'm rested. What I'm trying to do there is to show what it seems or feels like. What I am actually doing seems to be over-emphasizing everything and coming across the way you describe.

I'm really glad to hear that is not the case and it was my misunderstanding you - since the idea that you honestly thought that was really disconcerting. I think what you're describing sounds a lot like your emotions finally getting into the picture, when you're used to using only your intellect (and your last two emails were much more helpful to understanding what you were trying to say than anything else you've written in this thread, even with the defensiveness, which is not unexpected). When you write from you - not from your pure intellect, it's just so much more clear there is no comparison.

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[Elvis lip]
Thank ya.
Thank ya very much.
Thank ya.
[/Elvis lip]

Reeeeal funny guyz. :D
So, what's so weird about a weirdo (me) wanting to discuss the framework, or cognitive underpinnings of the self-remembering process? We know it's there, right? Even imagination must be physiological with neuron activity, B vitamins being used up, etc.

I may be somewhat less than coherent from a super-long exhausting day, but I will elaborate, so just let me know where to pause for laughter, OK? :D

Not sure I follow you.

Me either.

An idiotic attempt at humor while tired? Probably the kind of thing that might be funny if we were face to face and you could see my body language and 'feel' me. In written form though? Not so funny I guess.

You were talking earlier in the thread about true understanding, well if you truly understand you should be able to explain it.

I also feel like that should be true in all cases, but for me it is still hard sometimes. Sometimes, I can instantly feel and see the wrongness of something, but not be able to explain it well enough. To me, that's two different modes of cognition - one is the feeling center or inductive cognition, the other is the prefrontal cortex's deductive mode - the linear, language-dependent thinking center. Some people here can slide smoothly in and out of either or both modes. Others in daily life are so good at putting their thought in writing because they spend so much time in their "word houses" (Gibran's The Prophet comes to mind) and are, therefore, more practiced in that mode. But some people have a bit more difficulty. This is how it seems to me, at least.

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Thanks for the feedback. I was expecting and looking forward to it, but you probably don't believe that.

After 3000+ posts, you'd kinda have to be an idiot not to ...and you're anything but an idiot Bud :)

Thanks, but I am an idiot and everything else that I am simultaneously, I think. In a good deck of Tarot cards, the Magician and the Fool are (supposed to be) the same person. The Magician is the Fool when he's come full circle (after his hermetic journey). If there is a Magician in our future and if there is no 'time' (C's), then I suppose any of us can be all of ourselves in one package on some level and anything at all can 'bleed through' now and again. :D

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Ana, I am amazed at how perceptive you are. Thanks for that post. The "trapped" in this Work idea is a novel perspective for me and one I hadn't yet put in words. I felt excited while asking myself if this could be the case! :)

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Palinurus, your post had an impact on me that's hard to describe. I hadn't heard about that phenomena, but it resonates with me. If such a thing is the case, then there is a focus - a concentrated kind of focus involving a person's awareness of their environment and self context. It's a very focused state, that's maybe simply not limited or exclusive to the thinking center and may even interfere with it? It seems so. If this could be the case in my experiences, then the dis-connect with esoteric self-remembering is at least plainer to see. Thanks for that!


I apologize to anyone I haven't answered yet. I will have to come back to it a bit later. Thank you.