Self Remembering

[RyanX]

First, my feeling, or sense of Self is as connected with the space all around us. Self is 'the undefined one' necessarily, in order to be always open for growth of knowledge and being. However, it seems when the predator's mind rules, this state is not acceptable because then Self is afraid it doesn't exist unless it is identifying with something - it feels that in order to do (something), it must feel itself being something (an identity).

In programming terms, Self is more the 'object broker' of the context, rather than any of the bits in the program. In story terms, Self is more the 'man behind the curtain' in the personal reality.

And that leads me to an example of 'product' of my Self-remembering efforts.

As Self is the undefined one, the reciprocal cognitive feedback loops are put in service to remember as much as is possible to remember. While in the present moment, I'm making the effort to recapitulate the previous moment, the moments before, the hour before, day before, week before, month and year before, etc., as much as I can remember about as much as was actually there. I'm remembering in material/sensory terms as well as abstracting general truths or principles (lessons) from my experiences.

This is real effort and when Self-remembering is this involved it does not automatically sustain itself. This is part of what I meant in a recent post when I said "Oh. Self is doing the remembering".

In this experience, even though I have a sense of myself as 'something', I can only recognize 'me' through recapitulation - seeing Self in the patterns of change throughout my linear history in this life.

Hi Bud,

Anart made this post to you several pages back in this thread:

Well, it looks kind of muddy with these eyes! ;) I can't really get a grasp on what exactly you're trying to say here. Maybe as an exercise, can you rewrite the following as if you were trying to explain it to a 7-year-old, maybe with some simple, practical examples? For example, "simply doing it" compared to "thinking about doing it" is clear, but what is an "analog model of Self in a metaphorical reality space"?

Maybe it would be a good idea to take a breather and digest some of what has been said in this topic before responding simply to "get it all out" as you've said you sometimes do. There seems to be a certain emotional flavor to your post here that's hard to describe; a sort of a stealing of energy from one center by the thinking center, I think.

Sometimes I'll write things when my emotions are up, writing as a form of "release" instead of as a means to help others. If I see this (and I don't always do), I'll force myself to set aside what I've written and read it again the next day when I'm in a different emotional state. A lot of times I'll see errors in my logic or presentation or see that it needs to be discarded entirely. Other times I might see some value in it and decide to post it. It's not a full-proof method, but it sometimes works. The key is being able to realize that one is in an emotional state to begin with though.

There are other times when "getting it all out" is a good thing , especially when you're striving for self discovery. In those cases holding back is just a way of "posturing" or trying to please others without giving an honest assessment of oneself. But in the context of this thread where others might come to learn a new concept, it doesn't seem appropriate. I could be wrong, of course.

The way in which you've written this post tends to confuse people who are new to these concepts and make them feel that their intellectual abilities are inadequate to grasp something that is actually quite simple and rudimentary in the Work, osit.

 

[Buddy]

Maybe it would be a good idea to take a breather and digest some of what has been said in this topic before responding simply to "get it all out" as you've said you sometimes do.

OK Ryan. You have a point there. I will take your suggestion. Thanks. :)

 

[anart]

It seems to me that this thread has really wandered off into the mud, regarding providing a clear, simple explanation of the concept of self-remembering. Quite frankly, I'm even having trouble following the line of thought here for the most part.

There seems to be quite the intellectual over-compensation going on and instead of keeping things simple - for clarity - many of you have gone in the opposite direction.

While it can be a very complex idea in practice, in theory, it is not. It is very simple. It is observation of the self by the self; by the 'observer' - that part of the self who stands (mostly) silent witness to ones life until one wakes up enough and coalesces enough to allow that part to no longer be just a silent witness.

It is, as Needleman might say, paying attention. Paying attention, all the time, to everything going on in and around oneself.

So - keep it simple - and re-read Mme de Salzmann's First Initiation again, please - it is directly relevant. Here it is again:

You will see that in life you receive exactly what you give. Your life is the mirror of what you are. It is in your image. You are passive, blind, demanding. You take all, you accept all, without feeling any obligation. Your attitude toward the world and toward life is the attitude of one who has the right to make demands and to take, who has no need to pay or to earn. You believe that all things are your due, simply because it is you! All your blindness is there! None of this strikes your attention. And yet this is what keeps one world separate from another world.

You have no measure with which to measure yourselves. You live exclusively according to “I like” or “I don’t like,” you have no appreciation except for yourself. You recognize nothing above you—theoretically, logically, perhaps, but actually no. That is why you are demanding and continue to believe that everything is cheap and that you have enough in your pocket to buy everything you like. You recognize nothing above you, either outside yourself or inside. That is why, I repeat, you have no measure and live passively according to your likes and dislikes.

Yes, your “appreciation of yourself” blinds you. It is the biggest obstacle to a new life. You must be able to get over this obstacle, this threshold, before going further. This test divides men into two kinds: the “wheat” and the “chaff.” No matter how intelligent, how gifted, how brilliant a man may be, if he does not change his appreciation of himself, there will be no hope for an inner development, for a work toward self-knowledge, for a true becoming. He will remain such as he is all his life. The first requirement, the first condition, the first test for one who wishes to work on himself is to change his appreciation of himself. He must not imagine, not simply believe or think, but see things in himself which he has never seen before, see them actually. His appreciation will never be able to change as long as he sees nothing in himself. And in order to see, he must learn to see; this is the first initiation of man into self-knowledge.

First of all, he has to know what he must look at. When he knows, he must make efforts, keep his attention, look constantly with persistence. Only through maintaining his attention, and not forgetting to look, one day, perhaps, he will be able to see. If he sees one time he can see a second time, and if that continues he will no longer be able not to see. This is the state to be looked for, it is the aim of our observation; it is from there that the true wish will be born, the irresistible wish to become: from cold we shall become warm, vibrant; we shall be touched by our reality.

Today we have nothing but the illusion of what we are. We think too highly of ourselves. We do not respect ourselves. In order to respect myself, I have to recognize a part in myself which is above the other parts, and my attitude toward this part should bear witness to the respect that I have for it. In this way I shall respect myself. And my relations with others will be governed by the same respect.

You must understand that all the other measures—talent, education, culture, genius—are changing measures, measures of detail. The only exact measure, the only unchanging, objective real measure is the measure of inner vision. I see—I see myself—by this, you have measured. With one higher real part, you have measured another lower part, also real. And this measure, defining by itself the role of each part, will lead you to respect for yourself.

But you will see that it is not easy. And it is not cheap. You must pay dearly. For bad payers, lazy people, parasites, no hope. You must pay, pay a lot, and pay immediately, pay in advance. Pay with yourself. By sincere, conscientious, disinterested efforts. The more you are prepared to pay without economizing, without cheating, without any falsification, the more you will receive. And from that time on you will become acquainted with your nature. And you will see all the tricks, all the dishonesties that your nature resorts to in order to avoid paying hard cash. Because you have to pay with your ready-made theories, with your rooted convictions, with your prejudices, your conventions, your “I like” and “I don’t like.” Without bargaining, honestly, without pretending. Trying “sincerely” to see as you offer your counterfeit money.

Try for a moment to accept the idea that you are not what you believe yourself to be, that you overestimate yourself, in fact that you lie to yourself. That you always lie to yourself every moment, all day, all your life. That this lying rules you to such an extent that you cannot control it any more. You are the prey of lying. You lie, everywhere. Your relations with others—lies. The upbringing you give, the conventions—lies. Your teaching—lies. Your theories, your art—lies. Your social life, your family life—lies. And what you think of yourself—lies also.

But you never stop yourself in what you are doing or in what you are saying because you believe in yourself. You must stop inwardly and observe. Observe without preconceptions, accepting for a time this idea of lying. And if you observe in this way, paying with yourself, without self-pity, giving up all your supposed riches for a moment of reality, perhaps you will suddenly see something you have never before seen in yourself until this day. You will see that you are different from what you think you are. You will see that you are two. One who is not, but takes the place and plays the role of the other. And one who is, yet so weak, so insubstantial, that he no sooner appears than he immediately disappears. He cannot endure lies. The least lie makes him faint away. He does not struggle, he does not resist, he is defeated in advance. Learn to look until you have seen the difference between your two natures, until you have seen the lies, the deception in yourself. When you have seen your two natures, that day, in yourself, the truth will be born.

 

[Windmill knight]

It seems to me that this thread has really wandered off into the mud, regarding providing a clear, simple explanation of the concept of self-remembering. Quite frankly, I'm even having trouble following the line of thought here for the most part.

There seems to be quite the intellectual over-compensation going on and instead of keeping things simple - for clarity - many of you have gone in the opposite direction.

I agree. If Bud and the rest of us could just do what AI suggested here:

Maybe as an exercise, can you rewrite the following as if you were trying to explain it to a 7-year-old, maybe with some simple, practical examples?

we could get a long way!

Consider that if you cannot explain it to a child, you probably don't understand it yourself! ;)

 

[Iron]

It seems to me that this thread has really wandered off into the mud, regarding providing a clear, simple explanation of the concept of self-remembering. Quite frankly, I'm even having trouble following the line of thought here for the most part.

There seems to be quite the intellectual over-compensation going on and instead of keeping things simple - for clarity - many of you have gone in the opposite direction.

While it can be a very complex idea in practice, in theory, it is not. It is very simple. It is observation of the self by the self; by the 'observer' - that part of the self who stands (mostly) silent witness to ones life until one wakes up enough and coalesces enough to allow that part to no longer be just a silent witness.

It is, as Needleman might say, paying attention. Paying attention, all the time, to everything going on in and around oneself.

When I first wandered into this thread I thought it was just that, remembering to observe oneself, this remembering meaning being "there" in the moment. Stopping the mechanicity at least for a while to observe himself.
I thought it was just that : Paying attention.

I'm re-reading the thread and reading the excerpt of de Salzman you posted to further clarify myself.

 

[RyanX]

I agree. If Bud and the rest of us could just do what AI suggested here:

Maybe as an exercise, can you rewrite the following as if you were trying to explain it to a 7-year-old, maybe with some simple, practical examples?

we could get a long way!

Ditto. From the experience of actually having a 7-year-old around and trying to explain some things to her, makes me realize how much I haven't grasped myself. And I'm not talking about the Work here, but just basic everyday things about the world. I think it's true that most people actually know much less than they think they do, myself included; and overly intellectualizing that theorizing (read: wiseacring) is part of the problem that blocks real understanding. I think we could all benefit from this simple exercise.

 

[Buddy]

[quote author=anart]
While it can be a very complex idea in practice, in theory, it is not. It is very simple. It is observation of the self by the self; by the 'observer' - that part of the self who stands (mostly) silent witness to ones life until one wakes up enough and coalesces enough to allow that part to no longer be just a silent witness.

It is, as Needleman might say, paying attention. Paying attention, all the time, to everything going on in and around oneself.
[/quote]


So, if I'm understanding the feedback correctly, the topic should have kinda revolved around the above description with maybe a bit of discussion to flesh out the theory or provide some examples of the practice - from the simple to the more complex.

If this is the case, then I see how all the other 'talk' would be seen as over-intellectualizing or 'wise-acreing'. Which, BTW, in my neck of the woods, means being a smart*ss (and I can see how there might even be a bit of similarity between the two ideas).

So anyway, at the moment, this is me:




And this is what I'm doing:

 

[Approaching Infinity]

So anyway, at the moment, this is me:



And this is what I'm doing:

I don't think that's really necessary, Bud, but it's up to you. Why don't you try the "7-year-old exercise" and try to give some practical examples?

I'll try to set the stage with a little inspiration from (and apologies to) Jay Carter, author of the Nasty ___ book series.

First of all, picture yourself (i.e. you, person reading this) going to the store to buy some groceries. You know what you want, in fact, you've made a nice handy list. And because you've been avidly reading this forum and sott, the list is pretty short: bacon. OK, so you enter the store, know the meat section is at the back of the store, but... Quandary: which aisle do you walk down to get there? In somewhat of a hurry you pick one at random, not knowing what lurks in its cavernous depths: rows and rows of chocolate bars, gummy bears, Werther's Originals, and all those other deliciously evil delights that you spent your previous years scarfing down by the handful. (Ahem, this MAY be slightly autobiographical...) Your pace slows, your eyes widen, your mouth begins to salivate. Finally you stop and stare. You remember all the good times you had together. Your hand begins to reach out and a very innocent-sounding voice in your head speaks, "It's only ONE chocolate bar. It's not the end of the world. What do you think you are, Jesus, just get it and ENJOY yourself." As you grab the chocolate bar your furrowed brow relaxes, a satisfied smile appears on your face, and you walk off for your bacon.

That's your inner mammal. It remembers what it likes and what it doesn't. In fact, it probably remembered which aisle was which and directed you to walk down THAT one and not another. And sometimes it even hijacks your brain to tell you. It's the part that says, "I really like that, let's do THAT", or "No, I don't like that, let's not." It's like your pet dog who sees the bacon slice you accidentally dropped on the floor. By the time you look down, the bacon's gone, and Rex is sitting down, tail wagging, looking at you with expectant eyes.

Now, when you get to the checkout counter and the 16-year-old at the till tells you it'll be $264.30. Your eyebrows and upper eyelids rise in shock. "Whuh-whuh??" (Translation: "Does not compute!") You know you only have $40 and that seems outrageously high. You quickly do the math in your head (bacon was about $24, chocolate bar about $2 - definitely not $200). That's your thinkin' brain. It's the part that calculates, formulates, and generally tells you if things make sense or not. But you're already late and this young kid trying to rip you off is not making things easier. You raise your voice, "What the doodle do you mean?! This is outrageous! Let me speak to your manager!" The kid realizes his error, tries to calm you down and tells you he accidentally entered an extra zero in the till. You get somewhat embarrassed for your outburst, pay, count your change, grab your food (and poison), and walk out.

Lastly, all the while, your legs have been moving, taking you to all these places. Your head has been turning, your eyes focusing as your gaze gets attracted by various brightly colored boxes of non-food. Your muscles have been making adjustments to keep you from falling over. They have tensed and relaxed along with all the emotions and impulses you've felt. Your body registered the cold of the refrigerated meat section, the hardness of the floor under your feet, even if you didn't.

Now, all that is "it", your "mechanical self". All the movements, sensations, impulses, feelings, calculations, outbursts, thoughts, etc. But there's another part that didn't make itself shown at all on this little trip for food. Here's what Jay Carter says about that other part:

The prefrontal lobe processor is developed enough to use around the age of twelve. This part makes us "situationally aware." It allows us to see the big picture of things. It is the captain's seat of the mind. You can experience the prefrontal lobe capability by doing a little mental exercise. Ready? You are aware that you are reading this page, right? And ... you are aware that you are aware. Feel that? That is your prefrontal lobe capability. It sees the mammal and the logic. In fact, it coordinates the mammal and the logic. Some people have access to their prefrontal lobe early (even age five). Some people have to wait until they are twelve or much later. Science has found that the prefrontal lobe keeps developing into the late thirties.

... 38 percent of the population has prefrontal lobe difficulties. Some people do not use their prefrontal lobe at all. Federal Express drops it off around the age of twelve, but some people just never open the package. These people can be very frustrating to deal with. They don't seem to see the big picture of things. They have a lack of ability to see the consequences of their actions. They live in that moment we call "now" and deal only with what is in front of them.

Most children under the age of twelve are not situationally aware. Not being aware of their particular surroundings, they do inappropriate things, liking singing out loud at a funeral, talking to their friend in school while the teacher is trying to lecture, or playing loudly while their parents are on the telephone.

This is self-remembering. Being situationally aware. Being aware that one is aware. Gurdjieff gave the same example:

(self-consciousness) is the moment when a man is aware both of himself and of his machine. We have it in flashes, but only in flashes. There are moments when you become ware not only of what you are doing but also of yourself doing it. You see both 'I' and the 'here' of 'I am here' - both the anger and the 'I' that is angry. Call this self-remembering, if you like. ... If I say 'I am reading a book' and do not know that “I” am reading, that is one thing, but when I am conscious that “I” am reading, that is self-remembering.

So now we've got some practical examples of very basic self-remembering in the quotes. I can read, but I can also be aware that I am reading. I can be angry, but I can also be aware that I am angry. But there are infinite examples.

So, how many opportunities did "you" have for self-remembering in the story above? How would self-remembering make things differ from the way they actually played out? And can you all think of more examples? Everyday events where we forget to pay attention? How would you explain the example to a child, or even just a person who needs things explained in simple terms?

 

[Roger]

Great example, Approaching Infinity, Love the analogy, thank you

 

[Windmill knight]

Great example, Approaching Infinity, Love the analogy, thank you

I agree. That's exactly it, in simple terms, and I enjoyed the explanation. Thanks!

I don't think that's really necessary, Bud, but it's up to you. Why don't you try the "7-year-old exercise" and try to give some practical examples?

Again I agree. Bud, no one said you should 'zip your mouth'. The suggestion was to explain things in very simple terms. If doing the exercise is something that makes you feel resistant or uncomfortable, then I'd say it means that if you do it you will have much to learn from it. Even if you prefer not to post it, I think that doing it for yourself would be useful.

 

[Approaching Infinity]

Great example, Approaching Infinity, Love the analogy, thank you

Thanks, but that's just the set-up. What could the person in this scenario do differently if he/she is self-remembering?

 

[Iron]

Great example, Approaching Infinity, Love the analogy, thank you

Thanks, but that's just the set-up. What could the person in this scenario do differently if he/she is self-remembering?

For starters he/she would not get the chocolate, perhaps would not even walk into this particular aisle if he/she is self remembering and his/her will is strong enough. He/she would not unreasonably get mad at the clerk in this particular situation. He/she would be able to see the emotional state rising and control the reaction being considerate with the clerk that is young and perhaps in his first day in the job, or just distracted by mechanical associations.
He/she would be aware of the nuances in ambient and would avoid unnecessary movements and tensions.
This is what I see right now.. anything to add or correct?

 

[Approaching Infinity]

Thanks, but that's just the set-up. What could the person in this scenario do differently if he/she is self-remembering?

For starters he/she would not get the chocolate, perhaps would not even walk into this particular aisle if he/she is self remembering and his/her will is strong enough.

Yup. Good examples. I'll expand on this one. So beforehand, you are aware you are going to the grocery store, where there are a ton of evil foods. You know that some of them will appeal to your "mammal" and you resolve ONLY to get healthy stuff. You are anticipating consequences, planning future actions, kind of "seeing" into the future. Then, knowing how easy it is to give in to "I want", you blind your mammal. You either hustle through the aisle, not even looking at the shelves, or you look at the sign saying which aisle contains what and choose a benign one, like the pet food aisle (unless you like that sort of thing...). Or, if you're a masochist, choose the chocolate aisle, stop, look at it, smell it, then say, "Nope" and keep on walking. And if you're self-remembering, you'll be able to see the "big picture". You'll know that a 'small' slip like that can wreak havoc with your system. You'll know all the absolutely evil ingredients put into one chocolate bar. So you're aware of your environment, your own tendencies, your actions now and in the future, consequences, and so on.

 

[Buddy]

Hi all. OK, I'm game, but I really don't know if this is much better. I need a 7 year old so I can watch his face and let him ask "what does that mean?" as I go. I think this is the best I can do at the moment.

So, I originally said:

I think that confusion sometimes arises when it is not clear in the material that the authors are attempting to describe the difference between the inductive state of "simply doing it" and the deductive state of "thinking about doing it" - a difficult task to say the least when the thinking center is defined the way it is.

Here, I'm just saying that a reader who doesn't see the reference to his inductive awareness may not understand the idea of a 'sense of self' that is not identified in some way. He would have to "think about" something in terms of "putting an I to it" when it would make more sense if he could just 'feel' the reality of it instead.

That "thinking about" may then lead to further problems understanding, and so I wrote:

Would it be a bit clearer if we think of "the mind and the thinking" they are referring to as being references to the internal thinking space (that we created or that was put in us) where all the "I's" present are simply analog models of Self (thus identifications) in a metaphorical reality space (as distinguished from the reality around us and what the Self and its awareness of the interconnectedness of everything, can inductively think, sense, intuit, acquire impressions from, and feel there?)

The internal thinking space seems based on the illusion that something can exist without context - like believing that a "painting of a scene" is a sufficient representation of the reality it depicts.

It's the Self's act of "clearing an area for viewing it's symbols" - eliminating context that creates the illusion that Self is separate from something (the things it is considering) and that it can consider the things separately from everything else...including background context and even Itself!

In the above, the internal thinking space is simply where we do our thinking in language and the visual symbols of categories (like house, bird, car) stored in our memory. While focused in this space, we are not, at the same time, as sharply aware of all the context surrounding the problem we're thinking about, or even ourselves, because our attention is focused in a narrower visual field... unless you're somebody who cannot detach their noticing of everything going on around them from whatever problem you're thinking about internally.

The inductive awareness is awareness of the widest environmental context possible for a person at the moment. The inductive awareness assembles everything picked up with your nervous system into a single picture of the moment and the person feels all this as 'experiencing the moment' and doesn't feel identified with anything at all. As far as the person knows, their Self may as well be simply the "soul" of the world.

The inductive awareness is awareness of context; the PFC's deductive awareness is the awareness of the language interpretation of everything being perceived. When the two Work together, a person can both see like an artist and like a scientist at the same time.

IOW, the person can perceive everything in the moment as one big context with all kinds of patterns of activity, energy flows and sensate and also filter it all into static categories like tree, house, bush, bird, garden, field, crow, grass, etc - all simultaneously for the maximum holistic experience of reality of which he is supposed to be capable.

If a person doesn't have his inductive awareness working, all he has is his awareness as filtered through the thinking center's pre-learned descriptions of everything and he tends to interpret everything strictly from that intellectual position, which includes the contents of his library collection. He doesn't feel the moment or the visceral reality of ideas and because he sees the world through the porthole of the intellectual center, he cannot know that he knows something though he may believe otherwise - the solid connection to the interconnectedness of everything all around us is not there - thus the statement about the thinking center's space as being a sort of 'logical inversion'.

This is self-remembering. Being situationally aware. Being aware that one is aware. Gurdjieff gave the same example:

(self-consciousness) is the moment when a man is aware both of himself and of his machine. We have it in flashes, but only in flashes. There are moments when you become ware not only of what you are doing but also of yourself doing it. You see both 'I' and the 'here' of 'I am here' - both the anger and the 'I' that is angry. Call this self-remembering, if you like. ... If I say 'I am reading a book' and do not know that “I” am reading, that is one thing, but when I am conscious that “I” am reading, that is self-remembering.

So now we've got some practical examples of very basic self-remembering in the quotes. I can read, but I can also be aware that I am reading. I can be angry, but I can also be aware that I am angry. But there are infinite examples.

Well then, this is good news because I already understood it! I described it here:

While you are sitting at your computer typing your thoughts, there may, or may not be, another part of you that is watching this process as well as noting your posture, elements in your environment as well as 'noting' anything else there is to note...even the struggle to clarify your struggle for readers. This 'observer I' is rather impartial and unconcerned and notes your activities as naturally flowing from your goal of the moment.

I thought that ya'll thought it was more complicated, so I tried to help out by adding my recapitulation to the mix.

This is just something that has been with me as far back as I can remember except for those periods of foggy-headedness and the stupor of excessive self-medication. In fact, I understand this "situational awareness" you describe as the same environmental context (inductive) awareness zoomed in to a more local scope.

As an aside, I enjoyed your analogy, AI. When you write like that you have a wonderful way of maintaining your focus all the way through and it makes for enjoyable reading. Me, I'm always being interrupted. Like this post has taken me 4 hours to complete and includes the time I hopped up to help my wife prepare dinner. Maybe distraction is really the biggest part of the problem, as I can be interrupted by something 10 or 15 times while composing a 15 or 20 line post.

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Bud, no one said you should 'zip your mouth'...

Yeah, I realize that. The sound you probably heard was just my humor falling flat. :D Thanks for your thoughtfulness.

 

[RyanX]

First of all, picture yourself (i.e. you, person reading this) going to the store to buy some groceries. You know what you want, in fact, you've made a nice handy list. And because you've been avidly reading this forum and sott, the list is pretty short: bacon.

Sorry to interrupt, but this gave me quite a chuckle!