Self Remembering
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Buddy
The Living Force
anart said:
Ummm, maybe I wrote it backwards. The bottom should go on top? I guess all 7 year olds are different? My 8 year old granddaughter is not having a problem with 'inductive reasoning'. She understands it as 'feeling what it means', though levels of sophistication may vary, I suppose. Besides, I had to start with the post I made that started all this. Not material for a 7 year old, anyway and I think I am now babbling!
Bud said:
My inner seven-year-old still doesn't understand. How does this relate to real life? What is an example of it that I might encounter day to day? And how does it relate to the "big picture"?
I'll try to take a paragraph below an translate it for him, as an example.
We all have a thinking space inside. This is where we do our thinking, whether it's imagining a bright sunny day when it's raining, doing a math equation, or just the talking we often do in our heads. In this space you can see pictures, hear words, and bring up all kinds of stuff that's stored in your memory. But when you're really thinking about something and focusing on it, it's easy to lose sight of all the other stuff surrounding it. We may not notice someone ask us a question or call us for dinner. We might not notice that someone needs our help or that we're disturbing them in some way. But when you can "step outside" yourself and see everything that's going on around you, you can notice more. (/end)
Now, after trying that exercise, I THINK you were trying to say something very similar to what Carter was saying in the quote I provided, the part where he talks about children and how they don't see the big picture. They're "caught up in themselves" and don't see what's going on around them. But if that's the case, I really had to work for it. I had to read your post three times and 'translate' it before it started becoming clear.
Words and phrases like "inductive awareness", "language interpretation", "energy flows and sensate", "maximum holistic experience", "thinking center's pre-learned descriptions", "logical inversion" don't really work in this exercise. The idea is to state things as plainly as possible with no big words. You have a tendency to speak in highly technical language that often leaves other forum members befuddled. So not only would it be helpful for them, it would help you too. Because as Laura always says, if you can't explain it well enough for a four-year-old (I know, a few years younger, but I like the number seven), you don't understand it yourself. And by four-year-old we don't mean exceptionally gifted. Just your average kid that doesn't know much. Sure, you can teach them big words, but HOW do you get them to that point? They need context, simple examples, something in their frame of reference.
So another exercise might be to try to see the big picture whenever you post something. Will others understand? Can they relate? Am I using obscure terminology? It won't be easy at first, and we'll be here to help nudge you in the right direction, but I think it'll be really worthwhile.
Hi
I´ve been reading the topic and I thought that is so deeper for my mind jajajajaj
, but after Anart and Approaching Infinity post , I understood better. It looks like for me when I made the work and realized of my programs Im doing Self Remembering ?
Realized what Im doing each moment in my life? As I understood many of our feelings are playing by our programs so doing Self Remembering can help us the realized what our programs are?
I´ve been reading the topic and I thought that is so deeper for my mind jajajajaj
, but after Anart and Approaching Infinity post , I understood better. It looks like for me when I made the work and realized of my programs Im doing Self Remembering ? Realized what Im doing each moment in my life? As I understood many of our feelings are playing by our programs so doing Self Remembering can help us the realized what our programs are?
Buddy
The Living Force
cubbex said:
Well, I wasn't kidding. And you're right, you can't really know what's in another person's head. However, if you are what Jay Carter calls 'situationally aware', you can see when others are also - especially kids.
What Carter leaves out here:
...my granddaughter infers as 'people see it different'...which was good enough for me and which I took to be a realization that people in the same situations can be aware of the situation they all are in together yet, for whatever reason, behave as if they are unaware of (or don't care about) someone else's interpretation of the situation (which was really Carter's implicit point as I understand it). Note: I'm not making a value judgment here, just saying that external consideration is a built-in component of Jay Carter's explanation of situational awareness.
zim said:
Can you give an example? I know that I for one don't realize what I'm doing each moment in my life, but I catch some of them. For example, I can remember walking downstairs after eating my breakfast to come sit at my desk. But when looking back, I realize that I was NOT conscious of it at the time. I was just walking around like the guy in my example, my body running on autopilot. But your post, and my memory that I searched for as an example, served as an alarm clock, and now I'm aware of myself sitting here, writing this post. My feet are tapping out a constant rhythm, I can hear the typing going on in the room, I've got my "serious/concentrating face" on (which just made me smile when I recognized it), out of which is hanging a cigarette. It'll only last, however, until I fall back into the stream of mechanical behavior, at which point I'll need another alarm clock. As Gurdjieff says, until we have a solid I, self-remembering only comes in flashes. Then it's mechanical. We are reminded by associations to self-remember, something triggers our memory and we say, "Darn, I'm not self-remembering! I'll start now!" Only after it becomes a permanent function of Will and Being can we be said to truly inhabit our bodies, I think. Until that time, it's more like a time-share. Our various I's inhabit us, making way for the "master" whenever we remember to make room for him/her.
As I understood many of our feelings are playing by our programs so doing Self Remembering can help us the realized what our programs are?
I think so. When we're self-aware, we can self-observe. If we're disconnected from our emotions we can pay attention to our body for clues. After taking enough of these "pictures" of ourselves in situations we can get an idea of how we react to them, which emotional programs they trigger. Then we can anticipate times in the future when they'll occur. For example, a certain tone of voice reminds me of dynamics from my childhood, which makes me scared and defensive. I avoid eye contact and don't want to speak. But I know that this is a defense mechanism and that the best way to get out of this state is to make eye contact and communicate. So if I'm able to see it coming, I can make an effort to do these things regardless of what my body is telling me to do. But if I forget all of this and forget to self-remember, getting caught up in the "stream" of just reacting, I'll just run the program and nothing different will result.
Yeah its hard to be present all the time, doing the things not mechanically but being in each movement, for exa: Im here sitting writing the post feeling my fingers drinking tea watching a big window front of me feeling hot in my environment, but before that I was mechanically walked to my desktop to read a book and dissociative reading the book for a while!!!! So yes it is hard “to be” present all the time…
Well if I realized of my programs I could know when they usually run and stop it!!! For example, I grew up with a narcissistic mother that scream me all the time and I´ve always wanted not to act like her but after check my own programs I saw that many times my decisions were based in my childhood, and many of my programs were running with my relationships and I was affected my Kids, one day I was so angry with my first daughter and I began to scream her
( it was the last year) in the moment I realized about the ”program” and say I my God, this is my program “ohhhhhhh no,!!!!! I have been doing this ohhhhh nooooo so In that moment I stopped and immediately go to my daughter hold her and I cry and cry a lot 
that was the last time I react in that way, I´ve been watching my programs before they run, in many times of my life now, It is a hard process that is for sure!!!! But I have to tell that “be present” more time than before have helped me to "see" programs before tehy run … 
This could be part of the work of self remembering?
Hi Bud
I seem to recall that awhile back you said that you had read, or studied Peter Senge’s Fifth Discipline. Do you recall in Personal Mastery, Commitment to the Truth? ‘… it means a relentless willingness to root out the ways we limit or deceive ourselves from seeing what is, and to continually challenge our theories of why things are the way they are. It means continually broadening our awareness. … Specifically, people with high levels of personal mastery see more of the structural conflicts underlying their own behaviour.
Thus, the first critical task in dealing with structural conflicts is to recognize them, and the resulting behavior, when they are operating. It can be very difficult to recognize these coping strategies while we are playing them out, …’
Similarly, do you recall, in Mental Models, specifically ‘openness’, the work of Argyris and his colleagues on ‘”defensive routines” that insulate our mental models from examination’? The ‘skills of engaging difficult issues so that everyone learned.’ What Argyris called ‘balancing inquiry and advocacy’. It may be time to re-examine it, with respect to posting here.
Continuing to quote from Senge, ‘The most productive learning usually occurs when managers combine skills in advocacy and inquiry. Another way to say this is “reciprocal inquiry.” By this we mean that everyone makes his or her thinking explicit and subject to public vulnerability.’ For example, ‘”Here is my view and here is how I have arrived at it. How does this sound to you?”’ ‘… often respond to differences of view by asking the other person to say more about how he came to his view, or to expand further on his view.’
‘Make your own reasoning explicit (ie how you arrived at your view, on what data held).’
In the main part, posts on the forum correspond to this model. Specifically, being willing to expose the limitations in your own thinking, ie, the willingness to be wrong. So, as others have said, it’s about clarity, simple language, with ‘big words’ explained as to what is meant by them.
This may help, or not.
I seem to recall that awhile back you said that you had read, or studied Peter Senge’s Fifth Discipline. Do you recall in Personal Mastery, Commitment to the Truth? ‘… it means a relentless willingness to root out the ways we limit or deceive ourselves from seeing what is, and to continually challenge our theories of why things are the way they are. It means continually broadening our awareness. … Specifically, people with high levels of personal mastery see more of the structural conflicts underlying their own behaviour.
Thus, the first critical task in dealing with structural conflicts is to recognize them, and the resulting behavior, when they are operating. It can be very difficult to recognize these coping strategies while we are playing them out, …’
Similarly, do you recall, in Mental Models, specifically ‘openness’, the work of Argyris and his colleagues on ‘”defensive routines” that insulate our mental models from examination’? The ‘skills of engaging difficult issues so that everyone learned.’ What Argyris called ‘balancing inquiry and advocacy’. It may be time to re-examine it, with respect to posting here.
cubbex said:
Continuing to quote from Senge, ‘The most productive learning usually occurs when managers combine skills in advocacy and inquiry. Another way to say this is “reciprocal inquiry.” By this we mean that everyone makes his or her thinking explicit and subject to public vulnerability.’ For example, ‘”Here is my view and here is how I have arrived at it. How does this sound to you?”’ ‘… often respond to differences of view by asking the other person to say more about how he came to his view, or to expand further on his view.’
‘Make your own reasoning explicit (ie how you arrived at your view, on what data held).’
In the main part, posts on the forum correspond to this model. Specifically, being willing to expose the limitations in your own thinking, ie, the willingness to be wrong. So, as others have said, it’s about clarity, simple language, with ‘big words’ explained as to what is meant by them.
This may help, or not.
Bud said:
cubbex said:
Bud,
Perhaps this behavior of yours is an attempt to show those (who didn't take the effort to explain things to you) that you don't need their help. An attempt to show them that you figured things out yourself? So, this escape route kind of sounds like a revenge, or maybe an attempt to gain their attention? I.e. : if asking questions doesn't get their attention, perhaps having the answers will?
Cubbex wrote that you are kind of having unrealistic expectations from your granddaughter. I'm wondering what unrealistic expectations your parents had from you?
Did your parents speak to you as if you were an adult when you were young? If your parents didn't know how to speak to you on a child-level, this could be the reason why you didn't develop the (basic) skill on how to get things across clearly. Another possibility is that maybe your parents wanted you to be intellectual?
I'm just throwing some thoughts here. Maybe they can help you with finding out the roots of this program.
Another thought I'd like to share is that perhaps trying to explain terms from the Work might be too difficult to start with. Maybe it's best to start simple, like trying to explain what the 'Sun' is? If a random young child would ask you "What is that yellow bright thingy in the sky?" How would you respond? Just a simple and short explanation will do. These all are just some things you can think about!
(Sorry for going off-topic here)
Buddy
The Living Force
Hi Trevrizent. Thanks for mentioning "The Fifth Discipline". I do indeed recall all that and am aware that this forum is likely the only "learning organization" available to the general public that wouldn't require somehow pre-training all the participants first (but I'm not sure of that). Senge's contribution is outstanding and I especially enjoyed part 2, chapters 6 (Nature's Templates: Identifying patterns that control events) and 8 (The art of seeing the forest and the trees).
Personally, I think it's a good practice for the inductive faculty to learn to spot these patterns in business and personal life - even in their camouflaged forms because it requires assembling a lot of info over an extended period of time without pre-judging anything, and just sort of trusting that if there is a pattern there to be perceived...you will perceive it.
[quote author=T]
‘Make your own reasoning explicit (ie how you arrived at your view, on what data held).’
In the main part, posts on the forum correspond to this model. Specifically, being willing to expose the limitations in your own thinking, ie, the willingness to be wrong. So, as others have said, it’s about clarity, simple language, with ‘big words’ explained as to what is meant by them.
This may help, or not.[/quote]
It helps. I understand the message and I appreciate your input.
----------------------------------------------------------------------
[quote author=Oxajil]
Bud,
Perhaps this behavior of yours is an attempt to show those (who didn't take the effort to explain things to you) that you don't need their help. An attempt to show them that you figured things out yourself? So, this escape route kind of sounds like a revenge, or maybe an attempt to gain their attention? I.e. : if asking questions doesn't get their attention, perhaps having the answers will?[/quote]
I need some time to think about that, but I feel like you may have something there, especially as it relates to early school classroom behavior.
[quote author=Oxajil]
Cubbex wrote that you are kind of having unrealistic expectations from your granddaughter. I'm wondering what unrealistic expectations your parents had from you?[/quote]
From me? I had to grow up fast and be responsible for almost everything, or at least act grown up. As for my granddaughter and other grandkids, they seem to be doing fine by themselves. I just enjoy their company an awful lot!
[quote author=Oxajil]
Did your parents speak to you as if you were an adult when you were young? If your parents didn't know how to speak to you on a child-level, this could be the reason why you didn't develop the (basic) skill on how to get things across clearly. Another possibility is that maybe your parents wanted you to be intellectual?[/quote]
Maybe some of both possibilities? I certainly wasn't spoken to as if my understanding was on an adult level, at least not in a positive sense, but the expectations were there and the punishments for unsuccessfully guessing what they really wanted from me were there.
It seems I have a bunch more food for thought.
Personally, I think it's a good practice for the inductive faculty to learn to spot these patterns in business and personal life - even in their camouflaged forms because it requires assembling a lot of info over an extended period of time without pre-judging anything, and just sort of trusting that if there is a pattern there to be perceived...you will perceive it.
[quote author=T]
‘Make your own reasoning explicit (ie how you arrived at your view, on what data held).’
In the main part, posts on the forum correspond to this model. Specifically, being willing to expose the limitations in your own thinking, ie, the willingness to be wrong. So, as others have said, it’s about clarity, simple language, with ‘big words’ explained as to what is meant by them.
This may help, or not.[/quote]
It helps. I understand the message and I appreciate your input.
----------------------------------------------------------------------
[quote author=Oxajil]
Bud,
Perhaps this behavior of yours is an attempt to show those (who didn't take the effort to explain things to you) that you don't need their help. An attempt to show them that you figured things out yourself? So, this escape route kind of sounds like a revenge, or maybe an attempt to gain their attention? I.e. : if asking questions doesn't get their attention, perhaps having the answers will?[/quote]
I need some time to think about that, but I feel like you may have something there, especially as it relates to early school classroom behavior.
[quote author=Oxajil]
Cubbex wrote that you are kind of having unrealistic expectations from your granddaughter. I'm wondering what unrealistic expectations your parents had from you?[/quote]
From me? I had to grow up fast and be responsible for almost everything, or at least act grown up. As for my granddaughter and other grandkids, they seem to be doing fine by themselves. I just enjoy their company an awful lot!
[quote author=Oxajil]
Did your parents speak to you as if you were an adult when you were young? If your parents didn't know how to speak to you on a child-level, this could be the reason why you didn't develop the (basic) skill on how to get things across clearly. Another possibility is that maybe your parents wanted you to be intellectual?[/quote]
Maybe some of both possibilities? I certainly wasn't spoken to as if my understanding was on an adult level, at least not in a positive sense, but the expectations were there and the punishments for unsuccessfully guessing what they really wanted from me were there.
It seems I have a bunch more food for thought.
truth seeker
The Living Force
Bud said:
Yes, I have some of this as well in my upbringing and get a similar sense from some of your posts. Many times, the need to walk on eggshells with our parents translates into our relationships with others when we become adults. We continue to try and be that 'good child' or 'good person' and try to anticipate what we think are the expectations of others before we find out what the expectations are if any. This can lead to us shooting ourselves in the foot because we have misjudged the situation based on our own subjective fears to not be criticized. So we constantly dodge and weave to avoid being hurt when we don't necessarily need to do so. This mechanism is a protective construct that was needed for the child but as adults that are no longer under the thumb of our parents, we can choose to put that aside. Especially when we find that there are people around us who will always welcome us with open arms in acceptance for who we are right now.Bud said:
Iron
Dagobah Resident
Those programs that are more subtle, for me are the hardest to spot.
For they happen in reaction of a certain bodytype you saw, a perfume perhaps, or a tone of voice and a mechanical record starts to play inside.
I find it much easier to catch a more intense program, at least shortly after it is running. It seems that more subtle "eyes" are needed to see the less intense and apparently well behaved programs.
For they happen in reaction of a certain bodytype you saw, a perfume perhaps, or a tone of voice and a mechanical record starts to play inside.
I find it much easier to catch a more intense program, at least shortly after it is running. It seems that more subtle "eyes" are needed to see the less intense and apparently well behaved programs.
Buddy
The Living Force
truth seeker said:
You may have just touched on the heart of the matter. Certainly that's something that many of us share, judging by other member's posts. And I know it's among the motivations and influences that powered my drive for independence and self-seeking from an early age.
Thanks, truth seeker :)
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Iron said:
Great analogy! Like!
