Self Remembering
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forge
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I read Nicoll further and realized i am an ordinary case. Under the rug there were all my old I's scurrying around busily, like ants. They looked up as i lifted the heavy fabric.
One called out, all heads turned toward me:
- Hey watch out! What the heck is He doing here? -
- Eck.. He is doing that Work thing.. no big deal.. just give Him some impulse of Desire and we will get rid of Him for good!
These I's, all accounted for, despite my conviction that i have successfully got rid of them somehow, in the past.
This self-remembering looks like going to be much harder than i imagined. I'm only able to identify strong I's afterward . Two or three weakest ones i was able to thwart to fully acquire control: these were the 'Remember that idiotic Joke in that film, now you can laugh hard again!' or 'Hey let's cook up some satire about that ridiculous person you saw on the walkway!'.
The Hating I's, who are in their element, when they are convincing me to think evil about others, personal malice experts, these I's look to be the hardest to separate from and can be only identified after they dragged me into the Hating action. Maybe more success of observing them in the future?
1. In the mornings i'm bewailing my life situation as a workplace-slave.
2. Half an hour later i'm hating my boss as he demands too much, because i have carelessly shown him most of my expertise with advanced graphic programs, i carefully hid before. I wished for some admiration and success, because all i saw that i was surrounded by failure. Now i'm admired. Did it change anything?
3. On the bus homewards i'm hating people, because they are not behaving according to my Ideal Code of Conduct, that lot of I's like to observe.
4. At home the identification does not stop: i'm worrying about my career and constantly missing scheduled sleep times. Still feel being hurt in my Love-for-Self in enough cases.
5. There are I's that don't like the idea of Self Observation at all.
6. Stupid I's now sometimes lurch forward, like some freed stag, hinnying their message into the relative stillness/calm.
7. Rapid-fire Condemnator I's are also de-cloaking for a surprise attack occasionally, spurting out with a hateful sentence. Always about a person who i respect very much and same person is respected by many. These fast-swearing I's are easy to recognize and separate from. Afterward i usually think: Whoa! What was that?!
One called out, all heads turned toward me:
- Hey watch out! What the heck is He doing here? -
- Eck.. He is doing that Work thing.. no big deal.. just give Him some impulse of Desire and we will get rid of Him for good!
These I's, all accounted for, despite my conviction that i have successfully got rid of them somehow, in the past.
This self-remembering looks like going to be much harder than i imagined. I'm only able to identify strong I's afterward . Two or three weakest ones i was able to thwart to fully acquire control: these were the 'Remember that idiotic Joke in that film, now you can laugh hard again!' or 'Hey let's cook up some satire about that ridiculous person you saw on the walkway!'.
The Hating I's, who are in their element, when they are convincing me to think evil about others, personal malice experts, these I's look to be the hardest to separate from and can be only identified after they dragged me into the Hating action. Maybe more success of observing them in the future?
1. In the mornings i'm bewailing my life situation as a workplace-slave.
2. Half an hour later i'm hating my boss as he demands too much, because i have carelessly shown him most of my expertise with advanced graphic programs, i carefully hid before. I wished for some admiration and success, because all i saw that i was surrounded by failure. Now i'm admired. Did it change anything?
3. On the bus homewards i'm hating people, because they are not behaving according to my Ideal Code of Conduct, that lot of I's like to observe.
4. At home the identification does not stop: i'm worrying about my career and constantly missing scheduled sleep times. Still feel being hurt in my Love-for-Self in enough cases.
5. There are I's that don't like the idea of Self Observation at all.
6. Stupid I's now sometimes lurch forward, like some freed stag, hinnying their message into the relative stillness/calm.
7. Rapid-fire Condemnator I's are also de-cloaking for a surprise attack occasionally, spurting out with a hateful sentence. Always about a person who i respect very much and same person is respected by many. These fast-swearing I's are easy to recognize and separate from. Afterward i usually think: Whoa! What was that?!
That's very interesting, forge. Often I too can find certain programs that are just in suspended animation, waiting for certain environmental triggers (combined with a lack of self-remembering) to arise again. Desires in particular sort of skirt my consciousness' peripheral vision. Has anyone ever "noticed" the objects in your peripheral vision, and then become annoyed that you can't focus on what's in front of you any longer?
I think I've set up enough internal ques to wake up whenever I begin to have persistent negative emotion or imagination, so in some cases you can get a firm handle on your centers before the counterfeit I's begin firing in all cylinders. Typically the malicious I's are, for me, the easiest to identify and dissociate from, especially since, if I can't, I'll develop even more negative emotions (like guilt/shame) for having them and allowing them to exist to begin with. Sadly, it's easier to sweat the small stuff because the more subtle programs, like someone mentioned earlier, are harder to detect.
I just keep in mind that negative emotions are an indulgence that have no use in producing higher energies (unless you can transmute them like man #5, and congratulations if you can
) So for me, being upset about being upset is just another layer of programming. To solve that I just hold back on judging myself and impartially observe the regular upset feeling while trying not to identify. Back to square one in other words.
It's kind of like yoga postures: you have to to execute the proper position from the very start - it doesn't matter how little you can stretch that position. Those who break the posture gain nothing from the exercise (except perhaps the illusion of progress), while those who practice the work properly each day will be able to stretch a tiny bit further into consciousness.
I think I've set up enough internal ques to wake up whenever I begin to have persistent negative emotion or imagination, so in some cases you can get a firm handle on your centers before the counterfeit I's begin firing in all cylinders. Typically the malicious I's are, for me, the easiest to identify and dissociate from, especially since, if I can't, I'll develop even more negative emotions (like guilt/shame) for having them and allowing them to exist to begin with. Sadly, it's easier to sweat the small stuff because the more subtle programs, like someone mentioned earlier, are harder to detect.
I just keep in mind that negative emotions are an indulgence that have no use in producing higher energies (unless you can transmute them like man #5, and congratulations if you can
) So for me, being upset about being upset is just another layer of programming. To solve that I just hold back on judging myself and impartially observe the regular upset feeling while trying not to identify. Back to square one in other words.It's kind of like yoga postures: you have to to execute the proper position from the very start - it doesn't matter how little you can stretch that position. Those who break the posture gain nothing from the exercise (except perhaps the illusion of progress), while those who practice the work properly each day will be able to stretch a tiny bit further into consciousness.
obyvatel
The Living Force
whitecoast said:I just keep in mind that negative emotions are an indulgence that have no use in producing higher energies (unless you can transmute them like man #5, and congratulations if you can
Hi whitecoast,
Negative emotions do play an important role in the Work and one does not have to Man 5 to work productively with them. You may want to take a look at the following threads
The Usefulness of the Negative Half of the Emotional Center
Depression As A Stepping Stone (to Soul Growth)
True. If you define negative emotions as merely emotions that are unpleasant, then yeah they probably serve a lot of purposes.
I was just thinking of negative emotions in terms of wasting our productive energies. Isn't the whole point of gaining control of our minds and hearts in order to prevent negative/unproductive mental states from arising?
I was just thinking of negative emotions in terms of wasting our productive energies. Isn't the whole point of gaining control of our minds and hearts in order to prevent negative/unproductive mental states from arising?
thevenusian
Dagobah Resident
whitecoast said:
I think the point we are going toward by working on ourselves is to not become automatically identified with our emotions, whether they are negative or positive. In other words, to establish some reference point within which just watches and is observing and seeing whatever is going on at any given time without getting totally involved. From that perspective, neither negative nor positive is something to seek or avoid, it is just what's happening at any given moment. Observing how and why we feel the way we do can lead to all kinds of information about ourselves and how we work.
Most of us want to avoid negative feelings if we can, so they can be especially productive when they come up if we choose not to give in to them, keep observing with curiosity and not allow them to take us over entirely.
Alada
The Living Force
venusian said:
I agree with venusian, the thing is not to become identified, not get swallowed up by negative emotions and become them. I think its true that negative emotions can use up a lot of energy, keep us fixed in a low energy state, what is more productive is to transform the energy of the negative emotions and put it to better use, not to avoid having experiences with that kind of negative energy. One isn't seeking to stop negative experiences from happening, but rather handle them in a different way, make them more productive.
Self-remembering can help in this, or maybe better put, seeing what is not self-remembering can help. Something happens, negative emotions are triggered, programs run, whatever they may be: inner considering; self-pity; anger; fear; paranoia; self-calming and the rest. It is helpful then to ask: "Am I present now? Am I being watchful?" If we can catch the negative state as it happens and remember ourselves, "keep it below the neck" as Laura puts it, then we can make great use of negative emotions and retain/transform that energy and turn it into something useful.
We're not looking to handle negative experiences by ignoring them, blocking them out, dissociating, or allowing the machine to become aloof, etc.
Maybe we can look at it in 4d terms. The machine is designed to produce energies, 'food' for 4D STS of a certain kind, mechanical life is also engineered to maximize this effect. This process does not cease in us simply because we wishfully think it so. What we have to learn, via self-remembering, is how to consciously retain/transform it. Perhaps this is what Gurdjieff means by "Nothing can be attained without suffering but at the same time one must begin by sacrificing suffering." We sacrifice our mechanical suffering or order to suffer consciously.
I think the source of our misunderstandings lies in that I'm trying to think of the purpose of negative emotion in the ideal state, whereas most of the replies have been centered around the purpose of negative emotion in the normal or working state. It's obvious that non-identification and observation of negative emotions is useful for understanding programs and attempting to overcome the mechanical behaviors they effect, but I think it's important to have clear goals about what certain states should and shouldn't be influencing you.
I think an ideal state would be one in which negative emotions (or all low-energy, wasteful emotions) would either not arise at all (due to sufficient handling of the machine) or be rapidly metabolized into another higher or more beneficial hydrogen. I don't understand how that's necessarily identifying, dissociating, being aloof, or blocking out, as the negative/wasteful energy or substance isn't being quarantined, excreted (in the biological sense) or otherwise left to stagnate and discombobulate the mind-body. By all standards (or at least mine) the person is optimally functioning.
I understand that without certain negative emotions or shocks, people would not find incentive to work, but by that same token I'm just defining (at least for myself) an optimal state to work towards, one in which the work has been more or less finished (at least, finished to the extent a 3D level 4 person can comprehend or understand).
I like the Gurdjieff quote. In Ouspensky's 4th way he described voluntary suffering as using conscious suffering (the path of greater resistance) to eliminate unnecessary suffering, so all that we are left with is necessary suffering. Corroborating this with the Gurdjieff quote, we seem to arrive at the notion that all mechanical suffering is unnecessary. I think that can only apply for those level 4 and above though; for all those level 3 and below, mechanical suffering (or at least some kind of automatic association or agitation) *is* necessary to induce a waking state. Correct me if I'm wrong.
This is getting incredibly off topic though, for a thread supposed to be about Self-Remembering
I think an ideal state would be one in which negative emotions (or all low-energy, wasteful emotions) would either not arise at all (due to sufficient handling of the machine) or be rapidly metabolized into another higher or more beneficial hydrogen. I don't understand how that's necessarily identifying, dissociating, being aloof, or blocking out, as the negative/wasteful energy or substance isn't being quarantined, excreted (in the biological sense) or otherwise left to stagnate and discombobulate the mind-body. By all standards (or at least mine) the person is optimally functioning.
I understand that without certain negative emotions or shocks, people would not find incentive to work, but by that same token I'm just defining (at least for myself) an optimal state to work towards, one in which the work has been more or less finished (at least, finished to the extent a 3D level 4 person can comprehend or understand).
I like the Gurdjieff quote. In Ouspensky's 4th way he described voluntary suffering as using conscious suffering (the path of greater resistance) to eliminate unnecessary suffering, so all that we are left with is necessary suffering. Corroborating this with the Gurdjieff quote, we seem to arrive at the notion that all mechanical suffering is unnecessary. I think that can only apply for those level 4 and above though; for all those level 3 and below, mechanical suffering (or at least some kind of automatic association or agitation) *is* necessary to induce a waking state. Correct me if I'm wrong.
This is getting incredibly off topic though, for a thread supposed to be about Self-Remembering
I don't understand, can you elaborate?
Oh all right, thanks.
whitecoast said:
Hi whitecoast. I don't have the answers but something occurs to me which I'd like to offer as food for thought.
If I see injustice and evil and that gets me upset and angry, are those negative emotions? If so, is that the correct use of negative emotions? Or can they be said to be positive emotions, since they get me to do the right thing?
