Self Remembering

I don't know if it is self-remembering or not, but recently I have moments when I see the false personality quite clearly.

A part of me is observing this personality seeing how it functions. My false personality lives in imagination and lies. It substitutes new mechanical habits for old and calls it changes for the better. Even new found pleasures soon become mechanical.

My false personality says things that are at best opinion and calls them profound insights. It sees itself as superior to people I interact with everyday but is really just like them in being mechanical and shallow.

When I have these moments of clarity I realize with horror how much of my life has been ruled by a machine. Meaningless opinions, a constant flow superficial "thoughts" if they can be called thoughts at all.

The "I" that observes is someone new, or so it seems. It's like I don't know who I really am.

I'm not sure which book I read this in. Gurdjieff is asked how difficult the Work is. He responds by saying something like: Imagine the work that would needed to become a millionaire, accomplishing it by honest means. This Work is a thousand times harder than that.

Great discussion. Thanks

Mac
 
Mac said:
I don't know if it is self-remembering or not, but recently I have moments when I see the false personality quite clearly.

A part of me is observing this personality seeing how it functions. My false personality lives in imagination and lies. It substitutes new mechanical habits for old and calls it changes for the better. Even new found pleasures soon become mechanical.

My false personality says things that are at best opinion and calls them profound insights. It sees itself as superior to people I interact with everyday but is really just like them in being mechanical and shallow.

When I have these moments of clarity I realize with horror how much of my life has been ruled by a machine. Meaningless opinions, a constant flow superficial "thoughts" if they can be called thoughts at all.

The "I" that observes is someone new, or so it seems. It's like I don't know who I really am.

I'm not sure which book I read this in. Gurdjieff is asked how difficult the Work is. He responds by saying something like: Imagine the work that would needed to become a millionaire, accomplishing it by honest means. This Work is a thousand times harder than that.

Great discussion. Thanks

Mac

I have moments like these too. Lately I have been valuing these moments more than being able to clearly see the predators in others. Have to sort out the mess in my house first, before pointing the dirt of others.
I think this "I" that observes is the watcher/ deputy steward refered early in this thread.

The book you saw this quote was Views from the Real World.
 
Mac said:
When I have these moments of clarity I realize with horror how much of my life has been ruled by a machine. Meaningless opinions, a constant flow superficial "thoughts" if they can be called thoughts at all.

Hi Mac. I just wrote something similar here. I feel you brother.
 
I'm not sure to what extent the role of Recapitulation in Self-Remembering is discussed elsewhere, but to me, it seems to be extremely important that Recapitulation be understood, but maybe it's just me.


I hope this is not too boring, but this is an example of some of my self-remembering today, as I understand the process.

In previous posts, I tried to describe what it felt like to be a child and to have to disconnect my single, conscious, understanding-based memory from my body so that I could perform the actions and behaviors that were demanded of me. I also tried to describe how it feels to be misunderstood as mis-behaving when I simply needed to prevent myself from becoming robotic and mechanical.

It's not that anything I had to do was so wrong or bad, it's that I needed to keep my conscious understanding with me when I did it, otherwise I couldn't make my body do anything, if that makes sense. I guess that's what made me a difficult child at first because I didn't know how to disconnect and I didn't know that a focused attention state and internal narrator was required.

I even played the robot game for awhile just to see how it felt and if that was what it feels like I should have been. Nope, not for me.

It took a lot of slaps, smacks, switchings and belt whoopings before I finally gave in and then I don't remember much cause it gets kind of foggy. I just remember that I could now do whatever I was told and do it well. I started getting compliments on being such a well-behaved child. The only thing was that I was somebody else. I was kind of foggy headed most of the time, felt pretty stupid and didn't care much about anything except what my world revolved around and what the rules were. That was a disasociative state, of course and I could even disasociate to and from that state.

Probably a good example of a contrasting situation would be like this: let's say someone wants me to make them an omelet. OK, I know how to do that because I already understand all the associated Why's.

As long as I can use my OWN mind, I can have a picture in mind of only the essential steps that have to be in sequence during the preparation and cooking. For everything else, I could choose my own tools, I could be creative, have some fun and inject some novelty into the job. Since I could hold the picture in mind and simply coordinate my body's responses, I didn't have to think about what I was doing - I just did it. It's like my intuitive or feeling center awareness was at work, doing the necessary thinking and my body movements were the thoughts. I could work quickly and create a finished product that was the best I could put out. And it all felt like a wonderful experience.

On the other hand, if I have to make this omelet with a bunch of 'customer preferences' related to the tools, procedures to follow, so on and so forth, that's OK too. It's just that now, in order to make that omelet, I have to focus short and use my internal narrator to remind me, or tell me what to do and how to do it and I have to keep track of the steps and tell myself what to do every step of the way and when I'm done. Essentially, I'm using someone else's mind, or program, to guide my body and it feels like I am doing it because mine is not good enough.

For me, this is a much slower way to work and more prone to errors since it is so uncomfortable and stressful to have to stay focused this tightly for so long and have to tolerate the narrator/introject suggesting negative consequences if I screw it up. Needless to say, once the job is done, it's a breath of relief and a relaxing of a very tense state of body. Assuming I can get out of the state. Sometimes I get stuck for awhile.
 
Mac said:
I don't know if it is self-remembering or not, but recently I have moments when I see the false personality quite clearly.

A part of me is observing this personality seeing how it functions. My false personality lives in imagination and lies. It substitutes new mechanical habits for old and calls it changes for the better. Even new found pleasures soon become mechanical.

My false personality says things that are at best opinion and calls them profound insights. It sees itself as superior to people I interact with everyday but is really just like them in being mechanical and shallow.

When I have these moments of clarity I realize with horror how much of my life has been ruled by a machine. Meaningless opinions, a constant flow superficial "thoughts" if they can be called thoughts at all.

The "I" that observes is someone new, or so it seems. It's like I don't know who I really am.
When I got this kind of moments is like receveing a revelation from myself. The last was when I got to see that humanity or people, including me, are inmersed in some kind of illusion, believing that is the reality when it's not at the same time, I mean, I am not talking about an abstract life that is the real one, I refer to the way all that surrounds us make us believe what life is about, when we can see more and observe and discover new understandings, wanting to know more. But people are like water, just going with the flow without thinking of it, living in the lie that they are doing something when they are not because at the end of the travel or adventure, all that remains is the progress in your soul or being, the lessons we learn. There are people that getting a house is the central point of their existence, some degree, or something related to the material world.
 
Hi all,

At this point in the discussion I would like to share a sort of revelatory moment I once had (long ago) while studying the lyrics of a song which are about to follow. My conclusion was (and is): We all are yearning for the freedom to just be our authentic selves and develop from there on our own strengths and weaknesses -doing the Work and all that- in stead of being beaten into submission to the conformity of the matrix' madness. You experience time and again that 'they' won't let you be. For 'them' there is no life outside the matrix. As was stated much later in the Matrix movies, again. Those who want out are perceived as either mad or criminal or both. Lyrics from: _http://www.lyricstime.com/westside-story-gee-officer-krupke-lyrics.html

TIGER, IMITATING KRUPKE
Hey you!

RIFF
Who me, Officer Krupke?

TIGER, IMITATING KRUPKE
Yeah you, gimme one good reason for not draggin' ya down the station house, ya punk!

RIFF
Dear kindly Sergeant Krupke
You gotta understand
It's just our bringin' upke
That gets us out of hand
Our mothers all are junkies
Our fathers all are drunks
Golly Moses, naturally we're punks

JETS
Gee, Officer Krupke
We're very upset
We never had the love
That every child oughta get
We ain't no delinquents
We're misunderstood
Deep down inside us there is good

RIFF
There is good!

JETS
There is good, there is good
There is untapped good
Like inside, the worst of us is good

TIGER, IMITATING KRUPKE
That's a touching good story

RIFF
Lemme tell it to the world!

TIGER, IMITATING KRUPKE
Just tell it to the judge

RIFF
Dear kindly Judge, your Honor
My parents treat me rough
With all their marijuana
They won't give me a puff
They didn't wanna have me
But somehow I was had
Leapin' lizards, that's why I'm so bad

SNOWBOY IMITATING JUDGE
Right! Officer Krupke
You're really a square
This boy don't need a judge
He needs an analyst's care
It's just his neurosis
That oughta be curbed
He's psychologically disturbed

RIFF
I'm disturbed

JETS
We're disturbed, we're disturbed
We're the most disturbed
Like we're psychologically disturbed

SNOWBOY IMITATING JUDGE
Hear ye, hear ye. In the opinion of this court, this child is depraved on account he ain't had a normal home.

RIFF
Hey, I'm depraved on account I'm deprived!

SNOWBOY IMITATING JUDGE
So take him to a headshrinker. You!

ACTION
Who me?

RIFF
My daddy beats my mommy
My mommy clobbers me
My grandpa is a commie
My grandma pushes tea
My sisters wears a moustache
My brother wears a dress
Goodness gracious, that's why I'm a mess

ACTION IMITATING HEADSHRINKER
Yes, Officer Krupke
He shouldn't be here
This boy don't need a couch
He needs a usefully career
Society's played him a terrible trick
And sociologically he's sick

RIFF
I am sick!

JETS
We are sick, we are sick
We are sick sick sick
Like we're sociologically sick

ACTION IMITATING HEADSHRINKER
In my opinion, this child does not need to have his head shrunk at all. Juvenile delinquency is purely a social disease.

RIFF
Hey, I got a social disease!

ACTION IMITATING HEADSHRINKER
So take him to a social worker

RIFF
Dear kindly social worker
They tell me get a job
Like be a soda jerker
Which means I'd be a slob
It's not I'm antisocial
I'm only anti-work
Glory Osky, that's why I'm a jerk

A-RAB
Eek, Officer Krupke
You've done it again
This boy don't need a job
He needs a year in the pen
It ain't just a question of misunderstood
Deep down inside he's no good

RIFF
I'm no good

JETS
We're no good, we're no good
We're no earthly good
Like the best of us is no damn good

The trouble is he's lazy
The trouble is he drinks
The trouble is he's crazy
The trouble is he stinks
The trouble is he's growing
The trouble is he's grown
Krupke, we've got troubles of our own

Officer Krupke
We're down on our knees

RIFF
'Cause no one wants a fella
With a social disease

JETS
Dear Officer Krupke
What are we to do?
Gee, Officer Krupke
Krup you!

For safety reasons (fair use and all that) I have to copy their disclaimer:
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You must agree to the following statement or leave this website. All Westside Story - Gee, Officer Krupke lyrics, artist names and images are copyrighted to their respective owners. All Westside Story - Gee, Officer Krupke song lyrics might be restricted for educational and personal use only.
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So in my view recapitulation, self observing, self remembering and external considering (among others) are just tools to try to reconnect to the authentic self via the stages of watcher/observer, deputy steward, steward and ultimately higher self - with all what that implies for the reality of our daily circumstances... We have to deprogram ourselves and help one another trying to do that. Hope this helps a bit. It helped me realise how difficult this is in practice anyway and that you need all the help you can get.
 
Palinurus said:
My conclusion was (and is): We all are yearning for the freedom to just be our authentic selves and develop from there on our own strengths and weaknesses -doing the Work and all that- in stead of being beaten into submission to the conformity of the matrix' madness.

I think I have felt this like an undercurrent running through most of my life. I even thought I sensed it running through G's "Life is only real then, when I am".

Palinurus said:
So in my view recapitulation, self observing, self remembering and external considering (among others) are just tools to try to reconnect to the authentic self via the stages of watcher/observer, deputy steward, steward and ultimately higher self - with all what that implies for the reality of our daily circumstances... We have to deprogram ourselves and help one another trying to do that.

This seems to be my view too. At some point I had an insight similar to "that's what was meant by 'Ye must be born again'" - to undo the years of programming to get back to the authentic self before we can start to really mature, especially spiritually. I certainly wouldn't want to try and build on top of shaky ground. My "stand-in" metaphor for the authentic self was a combination of my own idea based on my life experience up to that point and Jesus's: "Behold, a man in whom there is no guile!" (I cried when I first read that).

So, I had a quandary: How to be my authentic self and yet not hurt anyone? Especially as I tend to view others, not as inherent "types" of people, but rather "states of mind".

Others I know in personal life who feel like I do simply live in a zero-sum world with respect to relationships, where you don't care if others are in a zombie state, as long as they don't bother you. But in a non-zero-sum world (this one! hello! :)) you do care about others' well-being.

Palinurus said:
Hope this helps a bit.

I may be out in left field a bit at the moment, but thanks for that post. :)
 
Hi Bud,

You wrote:
I may be out in left field a bit at the moment, but thanks for that post.

Earlier you wrote:
I don't take the meds anymore. I feel strongly that I really don't want to be a part of a society that considers 'ADD' to be a disease (assuming that diagnosis was even correct). To me, I feel it as just a difference that allows a different perspective on so many things. I think Nature is not prejudiced that way. If it is really not a disease or disorder, then I'm simply a combination of biological and genetic 'settings' on a sliding scale of human variability. For that, I occasionally have to suffer difficulties in some interactions.

I also read your recent entries in the 'programs' thread on a similar note.

Consider this:
Being out in left field isn't a disgrace, to begin with. It's just a sign of some sort of imbalance you're suffering from. I experienced similar periods several times myself while switching medications - or for whatever reason. So I think I know a bit about what you're going through momentarily. It's almost bound to happen every now and again to certain people.

You can count on the safety net this forum provides for you. Whenever needed, some members and especially the mods will notice and ask questions just to signal it to you - as happened in this thread. In answering and meditating or recapitulating there will be ample opportunity to get the necessary feedback and advice to redress those imbalances by getting to the root causes of them and/or learning how to handle them if they cannot be cured or remedied. Make it a conscious suffering in Work terms from your part of the equation and observe the results. Take courage and endure. It will help you mature, I'm certain of that. :cool:
 
I've found Orage's definitions helpful, included in C. Daly King's The Oragean Version. Here's the relevant section:

Since we are speaking of reminders, it will be well at this point to remark upon a
technical term of the work which is of much significance. This term is Self-Remembering.
Orage himself used it sparingly but it holds a prominent place in other Versions,
particularly in the Ouspenskian Version where it is the cause of some confusion, and it will
prove worthwhile to make its meaning perfectly clear.

The term has a reference both to Self-Observation and to Non-identification but it
is synonymous with neither
. The conscious act of Self-Observation is performed as
follows: 1) a deliberately conscious distinction is set up between “I” and the organic body;
2) one consciously identifies oneself with the “I”-portion of this established dichotomy; 3)
from the latter standpoint one observes, in the sense of being aware of, the defined
phenomena proceeding simultaneously in the organism. There is thus a division of
attention accompanying the observatory act; to the one hand one withdraws from the usual
identification with his organism and is aware that he is the now separated “I” and, to the
other, one is aware of the specific organic phenomena taking place, as it were, outside of
“I”. Self-Remembering refers precisely to the first of the latter awarenesses, viz., it refers
to that part of the attention which at the moment is focused upon the “I” and not upon the It
or organism.


This process of division of which we speak, is called Non-Identification and in it
“I” is placed apart from the body; the act of Self-Remembering is that included part of the
act of Self-Observation which is directed upon “I” and not upon the phenomena that are
the objects of Self-Observation.
In fact, Self-Remembering is identical with Self-
Awareness.
For anyone who is capable of performing the act of correct Self-Observation
there is therefore no excuse for supposing that Self-Remembering is identical with Self-
Observation or that in itself the act of Self-Remembering is sufficient to constitute Self-
Observation. Self-Remembering no more constitutes the complete act of Self-Observation
than does the cue or reminder which causes the subject to recall his intention to self-
observe.
And if the process stops merely at the point where Self-Remembering takes
place, then no Self-Observation has been performed. Every one of the above distinctions
is required in order properly to understand and also to realize (i.e., to make real for oneself)
what Self-Observation is.

Much earlier, when discussing the different states of consciousness, we have
mentioned that Reality, including naturally the external environment, appears differently to
the subject when in these various states. And by this time the pupil who has correctly
practiced Self-Observation and Participation has experienced inevitably some unexpected
glimpses of the appearance of the outside world at the level of Self-Consciousness. As
stated, it is one of the purposes of the Method to bring on this kind of experience gradually
and without premature shock to the pupil. Because he cannot perform the acts of Self-
Observation and of Participation consciously enough and for sufficiently long periods at a
time, no matter how hard he tries, he will not have had many of these glimpses of another
kind of real world and, instead of producing any sort of shock in most cases, such
experiences serve as further incentives to work and, more importantly, as definite
confirmations that the results of the Method are not imaginary but that something very real
and non-subjective is being accomplished.

It is, of course, no more possible to describe to a man in the Waking state what the
world looks like from the level of Self-Consciousness than it is to describe exterior reality
as perceived by a man awake, to one who has never experienced anything except Sleep. In
neither case does the transition to a higher level of consciousness involve contact with
anything especially horrible or terrifying but the outside world does begin to be seen in
clearer aspects and as involving much more movement and activity. To one whose
perceptions have never proceeded beyond those of the Waking state this new view at the
least is very unaccustomed and exceedingly strange; and both to assure him that he is not
suddenly “losing his mind” and also to permit him the opportunity of confirming
something previously predicted, the pupil is informed beforehand, so far as can be
possible, as to what he will encounter with his first self-conscious perceptions.

As remarked, very little can be said about it. But at least two aspects can be
indicated. One is the extraordinary and astonishing aliveness presented by the appearance
of so-called inanimate objects; for instance, an ordinary brick wall may look no longer
dead and inanimate but instead may give one the most surprising impression of a
peculiarly living thing and the view of so much more active an object as a tree may
occasion a considerable amazement.
Another, rather opposite effect is the unusual
appearance of deadness presented by the human beings who may come into view at such
moments. Of course it is not that they are really dead but that they suddenly seem to be
somewhat less than half-alive; and for the first time one registers in personal experience
that they are really sleeping, really submerged in unreal daydreams, really scarcely
conscious at all.
All this is not a matter of reasoning, deduction or even intuition; it is a
directly sensory experience
and, as such, creates a deep impression. One can never
afterwords forget how the outside world looked to him at a moment approximating to Self-
Consciousness. And if he has been prepared so that it does not come upon him too
startlingly (for it will certainly come abruptly) or in exceptionally unfortunate conditions,
there will be no reason for him to be shocked by it. If, nevertheless, he is, another
occasion has arisen for the teacher’s services.

It is now time to transfer our discussion to some theoretical aspects of this first full
stage of the Method. But there is a final word regarding the above practices, that is,
regarding these instructions for doing. What has been described sounds like hard work and
it is; it is very hard work indeed, for what is utilized in these non-identified efforts is a kind
of energy we have never heretofore used and of which we have no tremendous supply.

But there is nothing lugubrious about this Version and too often those who engage
in serious activities of this kind, begin by drawing a long face whose dimensions are never
afterwards lessened, so that for an outsider to observe them is to become convinced on
pretty good evidence that their discipline must be a tolerably depressing one. There is, and
there should be, no such implication in, or result from, this work.

It is certainly necessary to struggle and to strive but it is not necessary to embrace
the usual fallacy on this score. The struggle here is a direct internal struggle conducted
within one’s ultimate subjectivity, it is not turned toward what is outside ourselves in any
respect. Our organisms are in reality outside ourselves and thus we are never struggling
against their manifestations, habitual or not; we are not striving to reform them or to make
them “better” or to convince ourselves that we are sinfully responsible for what is actually
automatic and long since determined without our slightest consciousness of the
determination. What we do with such manifestations, of every kind whatsoever, is first to
self-observe them, then to participate in them, and finally to experiment with them.
Moreover, we do so always with non-identification. This whole procedure is very different
indeed from the writings involved in the Way of Religion or the Path of the emotionalist,
and enough has previously been said to distinguish the Fourth Way ultimately and finally
from any of the first three usual Ways. It is not a question of disparaging any of the Paths
by which men may become normal, it is a question of distinguishing clearly between them.
It must be obvious that our Way is not that of the religionist or of the emotionalist.

As to the Oragean Version, it does not propose that men are bad but that they are
abnormally subhuman. Nor does it believe that their situation is irremediable but to the
contrary it is engaged exactly in defining a remedy. The purpose of the Method is to bring
each candidate more energy, more activity, more consciousness, more life; not less in any
of these cases. Nothing is really harmful that does not injure “I”; and our chief and final
criterion is consciousness itself. We hold nothing at all against cheerfulness or the full
experience of all emotions, both positive and negative; indeed it is our assertion that such
experience is far too meager and our program is to make it fuller and more conscious. Nor
do we consider this in any way a hindrance to our ultimate goal of normality.

There is no proposal here to immerse the candidate for humanity in self-reproaches
or despair, but quite the opposite. And we are not concerned with those who are bowed
down by an automatic sense of sin and the desire to struggle and strive against it, whether
or not upon the pretext of struggling and striving against something else.

If you are not capable of more actively enjoyable, more conscious and greater life
than you have ever hitherto experienced, it will be well for you to keep away from this
Version.

And in an appendix on Ouspensky, he writes:

We have discussed earlier the rigorous meanings to be attached to two of the
technical terms included in the body of the Gurdjieffian ideas, Self-Remembering and
Self-Observation. It will be recalled that Self-Remembering is one of the necessary
preliminaries to Self-Observation
, the other one being obviously the recollection that one
wishes to engage in the latter activity. Self-Remembering consists in the establishment of
the dichotomy that genuinely exists between “I” and It, between the at first almost empty
reality of the ultimately subjective entity which proposes to engage in the self-
observatory activity and, to the other hand, that objective organism to which he is related
and which he is about to observe. In short, Self-Remembering comprises the effort of
non-identification from the physical body which is essential to any correct or successful
practice of Self-Observation.
In the Oragean Version these distinctions are clear and
final and there exists no excuse for confusing either one of these terms with the other; but
in the Ouspenskian Version the distinction is by no means so clear-cut, in fact it is rather
fuzzy and at times it even appears that Self-Remembering is actually considered to be
synonymous with Self-Observation. When such an attitude is maintained, therefore, no
genuine Self-Observation can take place and the very first practical work relating to the
Hidden Secret is omitted.

This same fuzziness or lack of rigorous and conclusive definition appears also to
me to characterize a number of other concepts closely connected with the Ouspenskian
Version, and in particular those involving the work of the pupil upon himself rather than
those concerned with the paraphysical, parachemical or cosmic formulations.

It is my impression that in the Ouspenskian Version the individual work of the
pupil, which of course is the very heart and core of the whole procedure, being what in
the present treatise is called the Boat, is far more introspective than genuinely objective
and that it is often taken for granted that the candidate, newly come to these techniques, is
in a position to understand both the possibility and the nature of a genuine Self-
Observation far more readily than in fact is, or can be, the case. Thus the real crux of the
Hidden Secret is missed; and without that revelation, which must always be fully
understood self-revelation deriving from an actual experience of the difference between
introspection and objective observation
, no sort of work that is done can in fact lead to
the results formulated in the Gurdjieff system.

To be specific, I suspect that the individual work of the Ouspenskian Version
consists, either wholly or predominantly, in what I have above called the work of the
Open Secret and that the work of the Hidden Secret is either omitted or so inadequately
glossed over that it is never really mastered by the candidate concerned. It must be
remembered that I do not know this to be the case but it should also be stated that the
opinion is no mere guess. It has arisen not only from lengthy discussions with members
of the Ouspensky groups but likewise from my experiences with them, as well
individually as collectively. Never at Mendham, for instance, have I heard the least
mention of the kind of constatation that must result from the Self-Observation of a
specific organic body but, to the contrary, only the sort of opinion that can arise from
introspections relating to subjective states of mind or emotion or from reflections upon
the nature of one’s habits, and so on.
On occasion I have heard ordinary students, much
interested in class work in the usual kind of psychology, produce equally shrewd
opinions; but the work envisaged here is not at all comparable to class work in ordinary
psychology or to the assumed self-interrogations of psychoanalysis.

Now this is an extremely serious point and it ought to be discussed in the light of
Ouspensky’s own words in regard to it. In his book, In Search of the Miraculous, on page
193 he speaks of the required transformation of that hydrogen in man’s body which is
here identified as the hydrogen, “mi 12,” and of the allusions allegorically made to this
transformation by the alchemists. He continues: “Alchemists who spoke of this
transmutation began directly with it. They knew nothing, or at least they said nothing,
about the nature of the first volitional ‘shock.’ It is upon this, however, that the whole
thing depends.
The second volitional ‘shock’ and transmutation become physically
possible only after long practice on the first volitional ‘shock,’ which consists in self-
remembering, and in observing the impressions received. On the way of the monk and
on the way of the fakir work on the second ‘shock’ begins before work on the first
‘shock’, but as mi 12 is created only as a result of the first ‘shock,’ work, in the absence
of other material, has of necessity to be concentrated on si 12, and it very often gives
quite wrong results. Right development on the fourth way must begin with the first
volitional ‘shock’ and then pass on to the second ‘shock’ at mi 12.”

In the words of the Oragean Version the first conscious shock is created by the
activity of Self-Observation, the second conscious shock by the activities of Voluntary
Suffering and Conscious Labor; and it is seen that what Ouspensky says is what has here
been said in the second paragraph above. There is thus no ultimate contradiction between
the two Versions upon this point but there is certainly quite a difference between them in
regard to what is considered as providing the first conscious shock. If in place of
Ouspenky’s own words we should write that this “consists primarily in self-remembering,
and incidentally in observing the impressions received,” we would have not only the
superficial implication of his Version but likewise the understanding of it expressed
directly to this inquirer by his own followers. As to the Oragean Version the case is
explicit and has already been stated: that Self-Remembering by itself will accomplish
nothing and that the cause of the actual transformation of the given physical substances is
exactly the activity of Self-Observation, and neither one of its preliminaries nor anything
else.
Whether the error above discussed was ever Ouspensky’s own or consists only in a
misinterpretation on the part of his pupils, or in fact whether it exists at all, I cannot of
course decide in any final sense. It is simply my conclusion from my own experiences
that it does exist.

My opinion in this respect is reinforced by Ouspensky’s own words, viz., “and in
observing the impressions received.” No impression can be observed in the sense of a
genuine organic Self-Observation by any pupil of the degree of those I met at Mendham
or have previously met in the Gurdjieff work anywhere else; and the very phraseology
quoted, evidences to me a lack of comprehension of the activity actually discussed.
“Observing an impression” is observing a sensation (or else it is the attempt to observe
some even foggier emotional or mental occurrence) and, as we have earlier seen, this is
not really an observation at all but is equivalent, instead, to becoming more vividly aware
of the occurrence of the sensation or impression.
The only thing that can be observed in a
correct sense is some current organic phenomenon; such an observation is made by
means of sensations or impressions, which only mediate the self-observatory activity. To
substitute the observation of impressions for that of organic phenomena first of all
confuses the issue and secondly is at best a subjective manifestation closely resembling
introspection
if, indeed, it is not the same thing exactly. Until the object of observation is
made specific and physically objective without possibility of doubt or verbal cavil, the
activity itself remains as non-objective as its own object.

Observing an impression is the Introspective Fallacy with vengeance. It is facile,
though, and thus it is a lazy fallacy, too. We have already remarked upon how easy it is to
skip the hard, energetic, objective task and to slip into the pleasant daydream that
introspection may be able to solve the difficulties, after all. Unfortunately (perhaps) that
is not the case. Introspections, of course, can sometimes be difficult and unpleasant also;
but neither does that alter the case
, if you come right down to it.

The object of observation not only can, but must, be a physical, organic
phenomenon of one’s own body
so clearly and universally recognized as to be open with
equal ease either to instrumental checking or to that of other instructed and careful
observers. Only so can there be any proper suggestion, let alone guarantee, of impartially
objective success in the outcome. The distinction here made between introspective
opinion and impartially objective knowledge is in plain fact so subtle and so difficult for
anyone’s apprehension in the usual terms that to me the failure to place the greatest
emphasis upon this really extraordinary concept indicates the highest probability that
both the crucial importance and the true meaning of the formulation have been lost upon
the formulator.

In this kind of activity, that of the Fourth Way, introspection is not the technique
advocated for the candidate or pupil; and introspection, whether or not accompanied by
an admixture of Self-Remembering, remains introspection.
Either that position is
understood or it is not understood. In the Ouspenskian Version it does not appear to me
to be understood.

This point is unusually important because it refers to something very important in
any version of the Gurdjieff ideas, viz., the whole basis and beginning of the practical
work that alone can lead to objective results in the case of the subnormal and
undeveloped human being. The introspective misdirection of this first and basic step not
only invalidates the very nature of the Hidden Secret, preventing its correct realization by
the student, but likewise must of necessity then throw the predominant emphasis back
upon the work of the Open Secret, which, merely by itself, is equivalent to little more
than an advanced sort of Pelmanism or the self-interrogations of ordinary psychology. A
great many persons, from those who study how to make friends and influence people to
the victims of psychoanalysis, theorize about their own types, behaviors, past histories
and so on, without ever in any way altering their status as subnormal or undeveloped
human beings even when their conclusions of this kind happen to be unexpectedly
correct. The successful prosecution of the work of the Open Secret will produce no
fundamental change in semi-conscious man.
 
I think it is great, helpfull indeed, it clarifies some gaps and makes a precise presentation, gonna see if I can read it in its entirety. :D Thank you!
 
Hi Palinurus. Your recent post reads and feels like you have a solid understanding. Thanks for that! :)

Palinurus said:
Being out in left field isn't a disgrace, to begin with. It's just a sign of some sort of imbalance you're suffering from. I experienced similar periods several times myself while switching medications - or for whatever reason. So I think I know a bit about what you're going through momentarily. It's almost bound to happen every now and again to certain people.

Yep. A little 5-HTP when I need to maintain a focused state for awhile and no one would ever know there was an issue. But right now, I'm wanting to effect positive changes from the outside in - using my own will and self-discipline to maintain my focus. I think it's going to work out fine with practice.

------------------------------------------

Approaching Infinity said:
I've found Orage's definitions helpful, included in C. Daly King's The Oragean Version. Here's the relevant section:

{some snippage}

I agree with those descriptions of the 'aliveness' state of everything and the "heaviness" state of most people, though the intensity of this perception can vary with personal energy levels.

I also like what he says about the Oragean Version. By itself, Self-Remembering is not such a big deal. Anyone can work with their neurochemical balances and get into a state where the "watcher" turns on - where one can see for himself that he has reconnected with his single, big-picture, understanding-based memory - a structure much like an interconnected web in which anything that can be remembered can be right there with you, ready to suggest itself anywhere it might be useful.

At this time, the difference between imagining self-observation and actually seeing yourself as part of the patterns of change all around you is as clear as a bell.

FWIW.
 
Ana said:
I think it is great, helpfull indeed, it clarifies some gaps and makes a precise presentation, gonna see if I can read it in its entirety. :D Thank you!

Just google "The Oragean Version" to find online copies. It was privately published and so impossible to find in hard copy.
 
Bud said:
I also like what he says about the Oragean Version. By itself, Self-Remembering is not such a big deal. Anyone can work with their neurochemical balances and get into a state where the "watcher" turns on - where one can see for himself that he has reconnected with his single, big-picture, understanding-based memory - a structure much like an interconnected web in which anything that can be remembered can be right there with you, ready to suggest itself anywhere it might be useful.

I think that's an assumption. Can a psychopath be self-aware? Seems to me it's a function not everyone possesses, i.e. one of Dabrowski's "higher developmental dynamisms".
 
Approaching Infinity said:
Bud said:
I also like what he says about the Oragean Version. By itself, Self-Remembering is not such a big deal. Anyone can work with their neurochemical balances and get into a state where the "watcher" turns on - where one can see for himself that he has reconnected with his single, big-picture, understanding-based memory - a structure much like an interconnected web in which anything that can be remembered can be right there with you, ready to suggest itself anywhere it might be useful.

I think that's an assumption. Can a psychopath be self-aware? Seems to me it's a function not everyone possesses, i.e. one of Dabrowski's "higher developmental dynamisms".

Good point!
 

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