Self Remembering

[obyvatel]

There is nothing wrong with a need to 'get things out', as long as it is recognized for what it is. It's not necessary for one to be in a positive state all the time, as long as one knows what state they are in.

Needleman said in "Lost Christianity" that perhaps the ONLY thing a human can know is which state he or she is in. I am looking for the exact quote, but it could take a while because I don't remember exactly where I found it.

Maybe this is it
[quote author=Lost Christianity]
It is not demanded of us that we always be in the state of the heart which grants us vision and self-mastery. It is only demanded of us that we know the state we are in.
But this is difficult. So difficult that it requires everything of us. It is difficult because it is in fact what is realistically possible in this moment for us human beings: to know our state. What is ultimately meant for us is something else, something of an inconceivably high level. But what is possible for us now, in the present moment is not what is meant for us - that is our tragedy, our situation, which was once precisely defined by the word sin, a word which is now empty of meaning. To imagine that what is possible for me now is the same as what is ultimately meant for me is the dangerous illusion of ego, the religious ego which is the most dangerous of all.
[/quote]

Also in a different context, a comment about experience which may be relevant to this topic:
[quote author=Lost Christianity]
An experience always seems real, even if what you experience is illusory in nature.
[/quote]

 

[StrangeCaptain]

There is nothing wrong with a need to 'get things out', as long as it is recognized for what it is. It's not necessary for one to be in a positive state all the time, as long as one knows what state they are in.

Needleman said in "Lost Christianity" that perhaps the ONLY thing a human can know is which state he or she is in. I am looking for the exact quote, but it could take a while because I don't remember exactly where I found it.

Maybe this is it
[quote author=Lost Christianity]
It is not demanded of us that we always be in the state of the heart which grants us vision and self-mastery. It is only demanded of us that we know the state we are in.
But this is difficult. So difficult that it requires everything of us. It is difficult because it is in fact what is realistically possible in this moment for us human beings: to know our state. What is ultimately meant for us is something else, something of an inconceivably high level. But what is possible for us now, in the present moment is not what is meant for us - that is our tragedy, our situation, which was once precisely defined by the word sin, a word which is now empty of meaning. To imagine that what is possible for me now is the same as what is ultimately meant for me is the dangerous illusion of ego, the religious ego which is the most dangerous of all.

[/quote]

OMG!!! To me, this is a hilarious example of how subjectivity can change our perceptions. When I first read this quote about a year ago I was feeling this state of division brought on by self-remembering more intensely than I had EVER experienced it. BY FAR! When one realizes that you have never known which state you are in, it brings to doubt all of the conclusions of your past experiences. And at that moment, which state I was in was the only thing I could know. And thus, I reworded this quote in my mind to be how I interpreted it with respect to myself.

I still love this quote because it expresses to me so concisely the feeling of that division within that comes from self-remembering. I am not sure any description which does not convey the intensity of that split can be considered as an accurate description. Thanks for finding that.

And note to self... I have been rather lazy in the past about digging up quotes and then paraphrasing. There are obvious dangers to that.

 

[Alada]

No, being "in the zone" is not self-remembering. Being in the zone is more like identification. For many people, "forgetting the self" is necessary in order to perform some tasks. Like playing the piano or painting or other creative work. Even focusing on running or swimming or whatever can be a form of self-forgetting.

But, these things are not STRICTLY identification. Identification is more like when you do something and you identify with it as though it was YOU not something that came THROUGH you. Say somebody criticizes your painting or piano playing or running style and you feel deeply offended and rejected because it feels like they are rejecting YOU. That's identification.

Or say, you have an idea and you think it's the greatest thing since sliced bread and you tell somebody about it and they point out that so-and-so thought about that 100 years ago and you "take it personally." That's identification.

So, I think a person can be "in the zone" as in forgetting the self, submitting the self to be an instrument, and NOT identify with whatever is produced.

Getting back to self-remembering: that is more like a sort of "divided" consciousness where the "watcher within" is fully alert and "on" and the personality is functioning also, under observation by the "watcher."

There's a great example of this in a book entitled "On a Spaceship with Beelzebub" by David Kherdian. I'll see if I can find my copy and scan the excerpt. It is VERY helpful.

So, if I understood, identification is when you "lose yourself" in a object/activity.

Yes, you lose yourself, you 'become' that thing.

As an example, recently I had some car trouble and was forced (or so I thought) to start looking for a new one. A lot of time started to pour in to the search for a new car: what kind, what colour, how fast, how economical, is it near, what will others think of this new car, what price, where will the money come from, what happens if the money is needed for other things afterwards, how much to insure it, what to do with the old car, who will buy it, and on and on and on.

It was a shock to wake up after several days spent chasing my tail like this, bouncing from one website to the next. The need had seemed so great, so pressing and at first glance reasonable - most people have need of a car - but the search had been picked up by various little 'I's' that ran with it. For those few days 'I' had become nothing more than a car searching machine, completely identified with the process, there was nothing more important it seemed. Yet where was I in all this?

Observe when this happens, how parts of the personality can latch on to such seemingly important things and divert attention from any useful conscious activity or Work.

[quote author=Iron]
Divided consciousness... I cant say for sure that I have experienced that. Maybe once or twice, but I dont think that anything permanent resulted from it.

Okay, two questions. It can be trained by special exercises. I assume that the "observing one center with another center" is the prelude for the actual task. Maybe exercises of dividing attention between diferent bodyparts.
[/quote]

Well I don't know about 'special exercises' in the sense of 'do this thing this way three times and get such and such results'. But generally speaking, as we are, I think we work on just paying more attention and see where that goes. I might be wrong but I don't think one starts out with the aim of 'dividing attention' right away. Learn first how to pay attention, to try and observe more.

It need not be anything 'special', doesn't require special conditions or anything, just wherever we are and whatever we're doing is fine. If all you're doing is walking into town, try to notice more. Be aware of the body moving, of sensations, thoughts, feelings. Watch, listen, feel.

[quote author=Iron]
So, is the sensation training that I have been doing via EE, in the parts where you say to pay atention to all your feelings and sensations between rounds of pipe breathing a useful form of training such awareness?
[/quote]

Absolutely! How much attention do we usually give to our bodies and their sensations? How often do we usually stop and ask ourselves how we feel at that moment?

Some people have no connection to the body whatsoever it seems. If you think of the problem of dissociation, through emotional wounding and/or absorption by tv, gaming, addiction of one kind or another, people have no real contact with their bodies, their emotions. Remember identification, a person can become 'Super Mario' or whatever. Where are the body or the emotions in that?

So its very helpful to focus in that way, to be aware of the breath too, but we don't have to stick to making these observations only during EE.

[quote author=Iron]
If not should perhaps I focus in just being aware of my sensations and feelings whenever I remember to do so, and during EE practice for the time being?
Because Im getting the idea that self remembering, the true self remembering is kinda a advanced step for the moment.
[/quote]

I think work to be as aware as you can, as often as you can. Don't worry about whether you're dividing attention or not, just do your best to be in the moment and observe as much as you can. The more we remember ourselves, the more we are able to remember ourselves. I get the impression that its gonna take us all some time to really grasp much of whats being said about Divided Attention, so best try to get on and see what we can discover with simply paying more attention, being a little more awake than we were yesterday.

 

[Iron]

Yes, you lose yourself, you 'become' that thing.

As an example, recently I had some car trouble and was forced (or so I thought) to start looking for a new one. A lot of time started to pour in to the search for a new car: what kind, what colour, how fast, how economical, is it near, what will others think of this new car, what price, where will the money come from, what happens if the money is needed for other things afterwards, how much to insure it, what to do with the old car, who will buy it, and on and on and on.

It was a shock to wake up after several days spent chasing my tail like this, bouncing from one website to the next. The need had seemed so great, so pressing and at first glance reasonable - most people have need of a car - but the search had been picked up by various little 'I's' that ran with it. For those few days 'I' had become nothing more than a car searching machine, completely identified with the process, there was nothing more important it seemed. Yet where was I in all this?

Observe when this happens, how parts of the personality can latch on to such seemingly important things and divert attention from any useful conscious activity or Work.

Understood. Very easy to let such things happen under our noses.
I have many examples of situations like this one happening with me too.

Well I don't know about 'special exercises' in the sense of 'do this thing this way three times and get such and such results'. But generally speaking, as we are, I think we work on just paying more attention and see where that goes. I might be wrong but I don't think one starts out with the aim of 'dividing attention' right away. Learn first how to pay attention, to try and observe more.

It need not be anything 'special', doesn't require special conditions or anything, just wherever we are and whatever we're doing is fine. If all you're doing is walking into town, try to notice more. Be aware of the body moving, of sensations, thoughts, feelings. Watch, listen, feel.

To observe my body is something I learned to do quite some time ago. But since I was expecting groundbreaking results right away, and was not really sure of how to proceed, I always noticed for a while and then stopped. Now I have a more clear purpose of why doing so is beneficial, I have been sticking with it.

In the past I did walking meditations, basically empting the mind while paying attention to breath, for this purpose. Nowadays I do walking meditations sometimes, but mainly Im doing a different technique. I changed the way I walk, so that I was forced to pay attention to the sensations of my walking.

Absolutely! How much attention do we usually give to our bodies and their sensations? How often do we usually stop and ask ourselves how we feel at that moment?

Some people have no connection to the body whatsoever it seems. If you think of the problem of dissociation, through emotional wounding and/or absorption by tv, gaming, addiction of one kind or another, people have no real contact with their bodies, their emotions. Remember identification, a person can become 'Super Mario' or whatever. Where are the body or the emotions in that?

So its very helpful to focus in that way, to be aware of the breath too, but we don't have to stick to making these observations only during EE.

Yes, we dont stop very often. But since starting EE, and the psychology learning that I did due to it and my life circunstances, I do it far more.

I think work to be as aware as you can, as often as you can. Don't worry about whether you're dividing attention or not, just do your best to be in the moment and observe as much as you can. The more we remember ourselves, the more we are able to remember ourselves. I get the impression that its gonna take us all some time to really grasp much of whats being said about Divided Attention, so best try to get on and see what we can discover with simply paying more attention, being a little more awake than we were yesterday.

That seems a nice attainable small goal to keep on improving. The kaizen of the japanese now seems more practical advice than ever.

I wrote this post because I already was in agreement with much that you wrote, but I realized that is best to expose what I was understanding about the subject to weed out any misunderstandings in this subject, that is basic for the Work.

EDIT: Hit enter before post was complete.



[/quote]

 

[cubbex]

I remember I was starting to remember myself, or at least that's what I believe, when I went to school. It was like, go to school, turn off, go to home, turn on. In school I remember I was just there, like other people, just there doing what I needed to do, and acting by inertia, then I began to ask myself who I am, the false personality there just as some mask or robot, or the one when I am alone and more aware of me and everything. Obviously this situation it's not just self-remembering, there is the false personality, self observation and more, but the interesting is that I was just there, and like there's no me, and then being there I was always putting attention on something and at the same time observing and being aware of me, and working hard to not loose my attention. And in some cases I needed to be in the zone, because I had lost lot of time in school you know, like loosing time doing nothing but just writting or whatever was the work. And I didn't like to not remember myself because the teachers always with their beliefs suggested my mind and percetion, until I got to know this, and kind of stop it, I mean, why to do it knowing they don't have the necessary knowledge and are in equal programmed like me.

Maybe the self-remembering stops our programs, because people even if the think they are being meticulous, act by a program, just act without thinking why, the reason, the feeling, and just do because of some external suggestion or something like that, and never ask to themselfs why?? That amazes me, I see around and everybody just live their lives and their dramas without reflection, inner observance and questioning. And I do what I need to do in my supposedly social, student life because I have to, but at the same time observing everything, you in one moment could even feel when someone is going to appear, or call in the phone, or feel the people.

This thing about self remembering is still blurry in my mind, I don't know if it means to know who you are, your being and kind of not being in touch with the exterior in a way to let it suggest you or influence you, or if it is about being aware of all your senses, but with the clues you are giving guys I think I am understanding more about it.

If it is about feeling your senses one example was in a moment of big fear, I remember feeling my heart pounding, my feet, eyes, and my body shaking, my thoughts about what would happen next, people around me, and it was so fast and so slow, like an orchestra inside my mind LOL. There is a good example of maybe self-remembering - as I see in one of the descriptions from Alada - in the movie "Sin City", the characters are always making their things, but aware of their bodies, sensations, feelings; always describing them.

 

[Harold]

Does this help a little bit?

Yes. I have gone as far as actually talking to myself as a Steward as you said. I walked into my home last night, with many things to do. I stepped out of myself and told myself there will be no doing anything till I eat first. Then the dishes, then a dog walk, then off to work. Today nothing like that is happening, I think my steward has sundays off. So I`m relaxing, but the committee wont stop talking about all the stuff I have to do.

I could use some feedback on this self talk. I have a program saying how crazy it is. Even though I don't think so or I wouldn't be doing it. This is normal? Right? It is very different from having the negative programming voices. And it is different from just having me to make all the decisions. It is two character`s one is this Jr Steward and the other one is whatever version of me it is that day. The Steward Is always this outside non-player who directs to this particular body I'm in. At least that`s how I see it for now...thanx for the help....

 

[Buddy]

I could use some feedback on this self talk. I have a program saying how crazy it is. Even though I don't think so or I wouldn't be doing it. This is normal? Right? It is very different from having the negative programming voices.

If it is "very different from having the negative programming voices", could it be internal pressure to establish an overview of your situation that holds a picture of a maximally efficient organization strategy? I don't know, just asking.

 

[3DStudent]

Observe when this happens, how parts of the personality can latch on to such seemingly important things and divert attention from any useful conscious activity or Work.

I have done the same thing with car research. And I don't even like cars, I know little about them. But when I needed to buy a new one it was like, "Ooh, look at all the cool features you can get!" And so I was lost in many considerations that I wouldn't even get in the end. I still do this, get lost and become a research machine and don't get things done. Thanks for the explanation.

 

[Buddy]

I remember I was starting to remember myself, or at least that's what I believe, when I went to school. It was like, go to school, turn off, go to home, turn on. In school I remember I was just there, like other people, just there doing what I needed to do, and acting by inertia, then I began to ask myself who I am, the false personality there just as some mask or robot, or the one when I am alone and more aware of me and everything. Obviously this situation it's not just self-remembering, there is the false personality, self observation and more, but the interesting is that I was just there, and like there's no me, and then being there I was always putting attention on something and at the same time observing and being aware of me, and working hard to not loose my attention. And in some cases I needed to be in the zone, because I had lost lot of time in school you know, like loosing time doing nothing but just writting or whatever was the work. And I didn't like to not remember myself because the teachers always with their beliefs suggested my mind and percetion, until I got to know this, and kind of stop it, I mean, why to do it knowing they don't have the necessary knowledge and are in equal programmed like me.

Maybe the self-remembering stops our programs, because people even if the think they are being meticulous, act by a program, just act without thinking why, the reason, the feeling, and just do because of some external suggestion or something like that, and never ask to themselfs why?? That amazes me, I see around and everybody just live their lives and their dramas without reflection, inner observance and questioning. And I do what I need to do in my supposedly social, student life because I have to, but at the same time observing everything, you in one moment could even feel when someone is going to appear, or call in the phone, or feel the people.

Thank you so much for this post! This could exactly describe the "flip flopping" aspect of my entire childhood and youth. My emotional problems with certain people were mostly due to a fear of disconnecting my actions from my understanding when I followed their orders. I somehow knew I would be a robot if I lacked this understanding and I resented their expectation of it.

I thought they knew "the whys" and just wouldn't tell me. Turns out they didn't know at all, so we all paid the price for our stunted development potential.

I was wondering why I started resonating with your posts recently. Thank you, cubbex.

 

[cubbex]

Thank you so much for this post! This could exactly describe the "flip flopping" aspect of my entire childhood and youth. My emotional problems with certain people were mostly due to a fear of disconnecting my actions from my understanding when I followed their orders. I somehow knew I would be a robot if I lacked this understanding and I resented their expectation of it.

I thought they knew "the whys" and just wouldn't tell me. Turns out they didn't know at all, so we all paid the price for our stunted development potential.

I was wondering why I started resonating with your posts recently. Thank you, cubbex.

XD hehe you are welcome.
I did the same, I thought they knew why they were saying all those things, until I catched some signal in one of them, when I or some of my schoolmates asked about something he kind of never got to the point, just a big salad about something that didn't relate. We were talking about hollowing and he about christmas.

But I admit, still I don't comprehend very well what's self-remembering, I have to read all the thread.

 

[go2]

In the beginning; self-remembering, self-observation, and self-sensing require directed attention from the personality. The personality or ego has its center of gravity in the thinking center of man. The thinking center personality establishes a watcher; usually from vanity, to watch the feeling center and the instinctive-motor physical body. One center watches the others.

The personality usurps the power of attention originating from a higher level and redirects it to its advantage. What is a higher level? The power of attention must be present in the instinctive-motor, the feeling and the thinking centers equally without prejudice. Attention is the fertile soil from which we remember the self we have forgotten. What is attention? Is it presence? Is it consciousness? Is it awareness?

Since the personality falsely claims to be self, we can call it the false personality. I am using false personality and ego interchangeably. The false personality quickly claims credit and control of the directed attention, the split attention or whatever Work game it hears about. It can even imagine it is a higher recursive algorithmic feedback loop, needing nothing from outside itself. The ego is always internal considering or identified; needing nothing, learning nothing, and hearing nothing.

Do you see the problem? The Work is a dangerous game for the false personality. It realizes the intention of self-remembering is to remember a self that is not the false personality. Oh no, the king must die! The false personality or roughly, the reasoning function, will lose its throne to become a humble servant of a higher self. It cannot control the power of attention and truly remember the forgotten self. It is an internal contradiction. The ego must become a humble servant of a self; somehow, manifested through the power of attention freely given and evenly distributed between our centers of function.

Paying attention has become the focal point of my Work with self-remembering. I am attentive to the sensation of my fingers on the keyboard. I am attentive to the feeling of joy of sharing. I am attentive to the thinking brain struggling to convey these ideas on the centrality of attention to understanding self-remembering. All simultaneously, for a moment. Is this attention an aspect of will? Whose will? Could distributed attention really be the door to higher realms?

This is a stimulating thread. Like Guardian said, "I used to be a genius, now I only have more questions?

 

[StrangeCaptain]

I don't want to get bogged down in semantics, but we do tend to try to be as precise as possible in defining the words we use here, and failing that, at least try to be aware of the limitations of the concepts and hypotheses we build. With that disclaimer, I have a question for anyone.

Is there a difference between self-observation and self-remembering as we use these words here?

 

[obyvatel]

Is there a difference between self-observation and self-remembering as we use these words here?

My understanding regarding the terms self-observation and the practice of self-remembering ( the state of self-remembering or self-consciousness is different) is that self-remembering is divided attention that is always happening at the present moment whereas self-observation can happen in the present moment and may also be connected to recapitulation of incidents from the past. For me, self-observation is the practice that generates data for understanding the personality - one that takes pictures at different instants of time. Most of the times, I am not able to self-remember in the moment but when I recapitulate the day's incidents, I can put together what happened and I consider it belonging to the category of self-observation. Obviously, something inside was observing even when I was not able to get the conscious feel of divided-attention in the moment. That is my current understanding which may or may not be accurate.

Actually for me, self-remembering has the connotation of being able to remember those parts of the self that have a Work aim - the parts that aspire to a STO ideal - in the moment where necessary. In that sense, if I am able to modulate my response to a situation in the moment by being in tune with those higher parts of the self, I consider it to be self-remembering. When self-observing, even though the observer is present, I may not be able to remember my general Work aim (the STO ideal) in the moment and respond in a manner that is in keeping with the aim/ideal. Recapitulation later brings this failure to light.

This refers to situations which are significant in the emotional sense and involve choice - usually regarding interactions with others - rather than regular activities like brushing my teeth or driving the car. In situations where I am engaged with something routine all by myself, if the higher parts of the self do not need to be engaged, I do not mentally use the term self-remembering but rather try to be mindful or aware of what I am doing. Again this is just my subjective view on this matter fwiw. Feedback is most welcome.

 

[Possibility of Being]

I think that the main difference between self-observation and self-remembering is that the first one is passive while the second one is active.

What I mean is that self-observation is just taking mental notes of whatever you can observe in yourself (without trying to change anything). You conscious attention is directed toward yourself.

Self-remembering involves acting consciously under the guidance of the Watcher (=Real Self ultimately). There is no possibility of mechanical or emotional reactions. Attention is directed inside and outside; toward yourself, your environment, and your aim - all the same time. It's also opening yourself to B i C influences. You could say it's being Present in the current moment.

At least that's how I understand it now.

 

[Alada]

I think that the main difference between self-observation and self-remembering is that the first one is passive while the second one is active.

What I mean is that self-observation is just taking mental notes of whatever you can observe in yourself (without trying to change anything). You conscious attention is directed toward yourself.

Self-remembering involves acting consciously under the guidance of the Watcher (=Real Self ultimately). There is no possibility of mechanical or emotional reactions. Attention is directed inside and outside; toward yourself, your environment, and your aim - all the same time. It's also opening yourself to B i C influences. You could say it's being Present in the current moment.

I agree with the above. Self-Observation can be wholly mechanical, at least in the part that you are observing. I observe that when the machine feel under pressure there are these reactions, when nervous these, tiredness produces this, and so on. You're not changing anything just observing the mechanical thoughts, feelings, reactions, movements of the machine. A part of you has to be awake to do it though, which is the only active part of the process.

With Self-Remembering, as far as I understand it at the moment, both attention and conscious control over the machine are required. One is seeking to be present in the moment and have conscious control over thoughts, feelings, movements.

Self-Observation is often described as a necessary stage in preparation, you have to get to know the machine to a certain extent, validate for oneself the truth of our mechanical nature and thereby understand the need to work on Self-Remembering.