Self Remembering

[go2]

With Self-Remembering, as far as I understand it at the moment, both attention and conscious control over the machine are required. One is seeking to be present in the moment and have conscious control over thoughts, feelings, movements.

Is a Work aim the conscious control that directs attention when self-remembering?

 

[Iron]

I think that the main difference between self-observation and self-remembering is that the first one is passive while the second one is active.

What I mean is that self-observation is just taking mental notes of whatever you can observe in yourself (without trying to change anything). You conscious attention is directed toward yourself.

Self-remembering involves acting consciously under the guidance of the Watcher (=Real Self ultimately). There is no possibility of mechanical or emotional reactions. Attention is directed inside and outside; toward yourself, your environment, and your aim - all the same time. It's also opening yourself to B i C influences. You could say it's being Present in the current moment.

I agree with the above. Self-Observation can be wholly mechanical, at least in the part that you are observing. I observe that when the machine feel under pressure there are these reactions, when nervous these, tiredness produces this, and so on. You're not changing anything just observing the mechanical thoughts, feelings, reactions, movements of the machine. A part of you has to be awake to do it though, which is the only active part of the process.

With Self-Remembering, as far as I understand it at the moment, both attention and conscious control over the machine are required. One is seeking to be present in the moment and have conscious control over thoughts, feelings, movements.

Self-Observation is often described as a necessary stage in preparation, you have to get to know the machine to a certain extent, validate for oneself the truth of our mechanical nature and thereby understand the need to work on Self-Remembering.

This diferentiation makes sense to me.
A conclusion that comes to mind is that a pre-requisite for external consideration the hability to at least self remember for a while then?

 

[Alada]

With Self-Remembering, as far as I understand it at the moment, both attention and conscious control over the machine are required. One is seeking to be present in the moment and have conscious control over thoughts, feelings, movements.

Is a Work aim the conscious control that directs attention when self-remembering?

Yes, it seems like a Work aim, to be conscious and thereby have control when self-remembering, to be awake.

It seems like a changeable thing though, our aims can only proceed on a level relative of our being, what demands conscious control at one level may not at another. I have to struggle to maintain and direct attention as I am, with practice and effort maybe this can change?

At first, it seems in attempts at self-remembering there is great effort required to direct (control) attention and to control the wanderings of the machine, mentally, emotionally, physically. I can not speak form great experience of a true third state of consciousness, but the impression from reading others accounts is that with proper divided attention (self-remembering) contact with the higher centres is made. Which might mean then that one does not so much 'exert' control over the lower centres rather that one is in state which of its very nature is more conscious, controlled. Self-remembering leading to 'right action'.

Edit - Footnote on the notion of control: "If you are remembering yourself and other people can't see it, then you're remembering yourself successfully. If false personality acts as if it is self-remembering, you are diminishing yourself". - Robert Earl Burton

 

[Buddy]

Is there a difference between self-observation and self-remembering as we use these words here?

To me, yes. As a seeming complementary view with Possibility of Being, Alada's and others, my current understanding is that Self-Observation appears to be a subset of Self-Remembering. Self-Remembering seems to be a matter of degrees and seems to involve keeping it all together in the moment from the magnetic center (while still growing) as well as continuing to fill out one's knowledge structure from the very beginnings of one's awareness. This is my current understanding and I'm aware of the woeful inadequacy of the words to share how it feels to me at the moment.

 

[thevenusian]

The only times I have ever had a glimpse of a limited view of what I think we call Self have been in moments of complete stillness. No thought, just being awake and aware. They happened as a result of meditation or in a couple of cases just a very quiet, reflective and open moment. These extremely brief events have always come to an end when the thinking part of me realized it wasn't thinking/ evaluating/ carrying on in the usual way- and I began to think about what had just happened.

To me, this illustrates the problem we are attempting to deal with. It has only been possible for me to exist in that state of conscious awareness for seconds, and only when all the parts of my personality were at their most quiet. And it was accidental, not consciously directed by me. Also, I do not have enough of what is required to maintain that state of being for longer than a few seconds- my identification with my thinking process and other parts of my personality is so great it simply overwhelms the presence of Self. And this is when there isn't anything even going on around me- no stimulation of any kind.

To return at any time to a few seconds of that state is extremely difficult and is not something I can just will to happen. To imagine having complete attention in that state, awake and aware and present in me consciously in the midst of the activities of daily life seems quite nearly impossible. And yet I think that is what these practices of self-observation and self-remembering are about.

To use an imprecise analogy, its like learning to ride a bicycle through an obstacle course at night while juggling 5 objects of different sizes, remembering the whole time to watch a particular star in the sky. With an ultimate goal of being able to constantly watch from the star's point of view! The only way to even begin is to start to analyze the different parts and then to observe everything about the mechanics of riding and juggling- what makes you lose your balance, etc. A great deal of work has to go into that. It might be impossible to remember to look at the star for a long time. But some of the time, after I've learned enough about how to ride, juggle and keep my balance, I might remember to look for the star even if I don't actually see it. With practice I might even remember to look and actually glimpse it.

If I understand what is being taught about the Work correctly, it is eventually possible to split off a part of my attention so that there is always some attention on the star, even while attention is also on the business at hand, using my imperfect analogy. In my own experience, this isn't something that just suddenly happens. A great deal of effort and constant alertness needs to happen just to get a somewhat fuzzy and imperfect approximation of this going.

It really is directing attention in the direction of something that is 'light as a feather', because even though it is always present in me, most of the time my attention is completely captivated by thoughts, feelings, reactions, sensations and mechanical behavior. Self-remembering is everything that constitutes my efforts towards having some attention at least going in the direction of that part that just IS.

I strongly suspect that repeated practice allows this to grow and get clearer, but it is a long road. I also strongly suspect that doing the EE practice regularly very much supports this effort by getting the support system into a more balanced state regularly and repeatedly, which is necessary to increase and sustain awareness of this part of me.

 

[Buddy]

Maybe one of my favorite analogies would be helpful to someone? (If this is considered noise, someone please let me know)

Think on the mystery of the gyroscope and how it seems to be locked onto some kind of background like the stars and how that might be similar to paying attention to reality left and right.

It (the gyroscope) is a centered axle with change all around it. The faster the change, the more stable the gyroscope. This is the basic benefit of the new information on the schedule of Creation. It allows a person to achieve the recognition of pattern, on a scale unprecedented in our human history. If you are able to pay attention to the unfolding pattern of Creation, this is what you will be conscious of. The speed of change and the continued disclosure of the nature of Creation will become a stabilizing force in your existence.
–Ian Xel Lungold

 

[ana]

The only times I have ever had a glimpse of a limited view of what I think we call Self have been in moments of complete stillness. No thought, just being awake and aware. They happened as a result of meditation or in a couple of cases just a very quiet, reflective and open moment. These extremely brief events have always come to an end when the thinking part of me realized it wasn't thinking/ evaluating/ carrying on in the usual way- and I began to think about what had just happened.

It seems meditation can be a tool of intense, deep self questioning, it doesn't mean that you start to process and elaborate questions but that you remain open, quiet, perceptible, and suddenly you start to recognize a new quality of attention, a new state of being.

"Openness," writes Father Sylvan, "is purity of attention."

The power or function of the soul is attention; the develop-ment of attention is therefore approximately equivalent to the development and growth of the soul.

The mediating attention of the heart added (not the emotional center but the soul) is spontaneously acti-vated in man in the state of profound self-questioning, a state that is almost always inaccurately recognized and wrongly valued in everyday experience. "God can only speak to the soul," Father Sylvan writes, "and only when the soul exists." He goes on: "But the soul of man only exists for a moment, as long as it takes for the Question to appear and then to disappear.

These extremely brief events have always come to an end when the thinking part of me realized it wasn't thinking/ evaluating/ carrying on in the usual way- and I began to think about what had just happened.

That seems to be how the "presence" is lost, as the attention wich for a "moment" was liberated gets inmersed/identified again.

The practice of Christianity begins with the repeated ef-forts to recognize what takes place in oneself in the state of self-questioning. This implies a struggle against attempts to cover over the Question by means of explanations, emotional reactions or physical action. Father Sylvan collectively calls these three impulses "the first dispersal of the soul." Through this term, he points to the fact that the force of attention is wasted and de-graded through absorption by one or another part of the psycho-physical organism.

To me, this illustrates the problem we are attempting to deal with. It has only been possible for me to exist in that state of conscious awareness for seconds, and only when all the parts of my personality were at their most quiet. And it was accidental, not consciously directed by me. Also, I do not have enough of what is required to maintain that state of being for longer than a few seconds- my identification with my thinking process and other parts of my personality is so great it simply overwhelms the presence of Self. And this is when there isn't anything even going on around me- no stimulation of any kind.

But that is already great isn’t? From now on you have a glimpse of this state, no matter what, now you know how it "feels" and you know when you are not "there".

To return at any time to a few seconds of that state is extremely difficult and is not something I can just will to happen. To imagine having complete attention in that state, awake and aware and present in me consciously in the midst of the activities of daily life seems quite nearly impossible. And yet I think that is what these practices of self-observation and self-remembering are about.
To use an imprecise analogy, its like learning to ride a bicycle through an obstacle course at night while juggling 5 objects of different sizes, remembering the whole time to watch a particular star in the sky. With an ultimate goal of being able to constantly watch from the star's point of view! The only way to even begin is to start to analyze the different parts and then to observe everything about the mechanics of riding and juggling- what makes you lose your balance, etc. A great deal of work has to go into that. It might be impossible to remember to look at the star for a long time. But some of the time, after I've learned enough about how to ride, juggle and keep my balance, I might remember to look for the star even if I don't actually see it. With practice I might even remember to look and actually glimpse it.

Maybe it is not about trying to achieve constantly this state, remember that you did not come to this state by the effort to be "there" you did came there by paying attention, by staying opened to what was happening, in this sentence of Anart you can simply change the words “positive state” by “this state”:

It's not necessary for one to be in a positive state all the time, as long as one knows what state they are in.

If I understand what is being taught about the Work correctly, it is eventually possible to split off a part of my attention so that there is always some attention on the star, even while attention is also on the business at hand, using my imperfect analogy. In my own experience, this isn't something that just suddenly happens. A great deal of effort and constant alertness needs to happen just to get a somewhat fuzzy and imperfect approximation of this going.

It really is directing attention in the direction of something that is 'light as a feather', because even though it is always present in me, most of the time my attention is completely captivated by thoughts, feelings, reactions, sensations and mechanical behavior. Self-remembering is everything that constitutes my efforts towards having some attention at least going in the direction of that part that just IS.

The thing is you do not find yourself in this state by trying to “achieve” this state or by trying to direct your attention because you don't know where do you need to direct attention to find this state, the only thing you can do is to free the attention wich is identified and trapped in thoughts, emotions, reactions, sensations and mechanical behavior, you do this by always trying to observe what is "happening".

I also strongly suspect that doing the EE practice regularly very much supports this effort by getting the support system into a more balanced state regularly and repeatedly, which is necessary to increase and sustain awareness of this part of me.

That is, doing EE help you free the attention from the issues described above step by step.
And:

As we shall see, the world of attention is the world of the human soul.

 

[thevenusian]

The thing is you do not find yourself in this state by trying to “achieve” this state or by trying to direct your attention because you don't know where do you need to direct attention to find this state, the only thing you can do is to free the attention wich is identified and trapped in thoughts, emotions, reactions, sensations and mechanical behavior, you do this by always trying to observe what is "happening".

Thank you for that, Ana.

 

[Alada]

Thanks for that, your post very much echos my own experience and understanding at the moment.

The only times I have ever had a glimpse of a limited view of what I think we call Self have been in moments of complete stillness. No thought, just being awake and aware. They happened as a result of meditation or in a couple of cases just a very quiet, reflective and open moment. These extremely brief events have always come to an end when the thinking part of me realized it wasn't thinking/ evaluating/ carrying on in the usual way- and I began to think about what had just happened.

Yes, only ever very brief glimpses lasting seconds, sometimes a fraction of a second. Either through focused attention or profound shock. The state is lost as soon as the mechanical mind comes into the picture again.

[quote author=venusian]
To me, this illustrates the problem we are attempting to deal with. It has only been possible for me to exist in that state of conscious awareness for seconds, and only when all the parts of my personality were at their most quiet. And it was accidental, not consciously directed by me. Also, I do not have enough of what is required to maintain that state of being for longer than a few seconds- my identification with my thinking process and other parts of my personality is so great it simply overwhelms the presence of Self. And this is when there isn't anything even going on around me- no stimulation of any kind.
[/quote]

Likewise, this has only ever been an accidental discovery. But as Ana writes, this is already something, verification that there is something there to work towards consciously.

[quote author=venusian]
To return at any time to a few seconds of that state is extremely difficult and is not something I can just will to happen. To imagine having complete attention in that state, awake and aware and present in me consciously in the midst of the activities of daily life seems quite nearly impossible. And yet I think that is what these practices of self-observation and self-remembering are about.
[/quote]

No, unlike almost everything else Self-Remembering requires conscious effort on our part we can't just Will it to happen. Though it would seem it can occur accidentally when the machine has been made to sleep one way or another but the Self is awake.

[quote author=venusian]
To use an imprecise analogy, its like learning to ride a bicycle through an obstacle course at night while juggling 5 objects of different sizes, remembering the whole time to watch a particular star in the sky. With an ultimate goal of being able to constantly watch from the star's point of view! The only way to even begin is to start to analyze the different parts and then to observe everything about the mechanics of riding and juggling- what makes you lose your balance, etc. A great deal of work has to go into that. It might be impossible to remember to look at the star for a long time. But some of the time, after I've learned enough about how to ride, juggle and keep my balance, I might remember to look for the star even if I don't actually see it. With practice I might even remember to look and actually glimpse it.
[/quote]

Yes it does seem difficult, is difficult. I understand the analogy.

[quote author=Rodney Collin]
When one begins to see that one can only begin to remember oneself for seconds at a time, it seems negligible. But what one must understand is that it is difficult exactly because it is the beginning of a new state for us, the key to a new world. If it were easy and if results came more quickly it could not have the importance which it has.

Exactly for this reason it is impossible to say how long it will take to reach self-remembering. How long will it take to reach Mexico? Some people could go there in a day, some in a month, some in a year, some in ten years, but most people never, because there is no reason for them to go there. So with self-remembering. Only for those who want it very much and try very much, time is necessary – years, many years. And even if they do get what they understand by self-remembering they will see that beyond that, infinite new distances and new meanings open up, and that the achievement of one stage of it is only the beginning of another.
[/quote]

[quote author=venusian]
I strongly suspect that repeated practice allows this to grow and get clearer, but it is a long road. I also strongly suspect that doing the EE practice regularly very much supports this effort by getting the support system into a more balanced state regularly and repeatedly, which is necessary to increase and sustain awareness of this part of me.
[/quote]

I agree, EE is proving to be an indispensable aid to calming the system down to a point where we can more easily pick up the reigns and work with it. Even if it is a long road, we begin it now. What little may come, even if just learning to grow attention, or learning when we are not in attention, seeing when we not present will be worth the effort. If we can begin to see that, then perhaps we begin to see more what we should do.

Thinking about Father Sylvan's repeated mention of "the question" in Lost Christianity, yet without direct reference as to what the question actually is. One begins to wonder whether the question is 'how can I remember my self?'

 

[obyvatel]

The only times I have ever had a glimpse of a limited view of what I think we call Self have been in moments of complete stillness. No thought, just being awake and aware. They happened as a result of meditation or in a couple of cases just a very quiet, reflective and open moment. These extremely brief events have always come to an end when the thinking part of me realized it wasn't thinking/ evaluating/ carrying on in the usual way- and I began to think about what had just happened.

In the pre-forum and pre-EE days, I used to meditate using some simple breathing exercises. There was no seed in such meditations. I could reach a state of profound stillness at times - seems similar to what you are describing. The breathing pattern became very slow (I viscerally realized this) and I was awake and aware. It was quite a beautiful state - no thoughts (my head is usually overpopulated with thoughts) - just silence. It felt so good to bathe in that silence - though the feel-good realization came in after I had come out of it. When I came out of it, I realized that more time had passed than I would have guessed.

But here is the rub. I do not know if this state of silence was accessing the Self or not but it did nothing to bring about any discernible change in me in my regular life. I could continue to be an ass (no offense or disrespect intended towards the animal who provides service) during the day and access the state of stillness at night during meditation at times. I did not continue with the practice after I found the forum and the Work.

After encountering the Work, there have been moments of what I consider to be wakefulness. These moments were anything but pleasurable - in sharp contrast with the state of stillness. In these moments of wakefulness I would come in direct contact with the "terror of the situation" - mostly within my own self (the grip of the predator's mind on my self) and also outside at times. These were moments of acute anguish. But it was these very painful moments - when the terror of the situation ceased to be an intellectual concept that I had read about - that provided the impetus for a change in myself.

In my very limited experience, one after-effect of the state of silence was a distaste for daily life with all its burdens and a desire to try and prolong the state of silence. I realized why people shun society to go and meditate in the mountains - it was much better than facing daily life. After encountering Laura's works and the 4th way Work, I realized that this was a selfish desire - STS to the core. Whom does such a desire serve except only the self?

So, personally I do not look for the state of stillness (or any other feel-good state) any more. My efforts have been to look at self-remembering as an effort to remember in the moment those parts of the personality structure which aspire to a higher ideal of service. I am inclined to think that the state of prolonged self-consciousness (G's third state of consciousness) is likely to be a gift which could be received only when the lower biological and socially conditioned impulses can be tempered and controlled by a higher impulse which essentially says " I wish to be of service to the universe". I am far away from reaching this level but that is what I am aspiring to.

My current understanding fwiw.

 

[StrangeCaptain]

My efforts have been to look at self-remembering as an effort to remember in the moment those parts of the personality structure which aspire to a higher ideal of service.

Thanks for that... I think this has been my conception too, but I could not have stated it so concisely. In this sense, the psychological knowledge of the Big 5 has finally started to come in handy.

For a long time, the ideas in the Big 5 were just concepts that were not applicable. I knew they tagged me, but implementing these ideas in my life was elusive. With respect to the self-observation/self-remembering process, they have become more real.

The childish parts of my personality, frozen in time due to narcissistic family dynamics (à la Pressman), protest intensely when I do anything to improve the state of my everyday life other than the minimum to survive. I now can play the parent to these fragmented parts of my personality SOMETIMES.

For example, studying for my univesity classes... Often, this beat-up inner 5-year old screams and screams when I want to study. I now know to firmly and gently insist that we study. I even have a little bit of internal dialogue (feels crazy to admit) with it along the lone of, "It is time to do this now. It is good for us. I will take care of you." It can take a solid 30-60 minutes before the kicking and screaming calms down.

But just as it would be deceitful and harmful to a child to tell him or her that they will be taken care of, and then not do so, it would be a profound hypocrisy to not follow through on my promise to take care of it in these internal dialogues. This is where all the great research here on taking care of physical health comes in. By taking concrete steps to take care of my health, eating and sleeping habits and the like and time for meditation, I am showing that fragmented part of my personality that I am indeed taking care.

Thanks all for the discussion...

 

[ana]

In the pre-forum and pre-EE days, I used to meditate using some simple breathing exercises. There was no seed in such meditations. I could reach a state of profound stillness at times - seems similar to what you are describing. The breathing pattern became very slow (I viscerally realized this) and I was awake and aware. It was quite a beautiful state - no thoughts (my head is usually overpopulated with thoughts) - just silence. It felt so good to bathe in that silence - though the feel-good realization came in after I had come out of it. When I came out of it, I realized that more time had passed than I would have guessed.

But here is the rub. I do not know if this state of silence was accessing the Self or not but it did nothing to bring about any discernible change in me in my regular life. I could continue to be an ass (no offense or disrespect intended towards the animal who provides service) during the day and access the state of stillness at night during meditation at times. I did not continue with the practice after I found the forum and the Work.

After encountering the Work, there have been moments of what I consider to be wakefulness. These moments were anything but pleasurable - in sharp contrast with the state of stillness. In these moments of wakefulness I would come in direct contact with the "terror of the situation" - mostly within my own self (the grip of the predator's mind on my self) and also outside at times. These were moments of acute anguish. But it was these very painful moments - when the terror of the situation ceased to be an intellectual concept that I had read about - that provided the impetus for a change in myself.

In my very limited experience, one after-effect of the state of silence was a distaste for daily life with all its burdens and a desire to try and prolong the state of silence. I realized why people shun society to go and meditate in the mountains - it was much better than facing daily life. After encountering Laura's works and the 4th way Work, I realized that this was a selfish desire - STS to the core. Whom does such a desire serve except only the self?

I understand your concern but I think we need to be careful not to throw the baby out with the bath water, when talking about meditating in order to bring amounts of being/attention, no one is rejecting the work that must continue in all aspects of our lives , and remember that the finality of all the work is to grow in being to achieve real knowledge, there is no way to achieve real knowledge(understanding) without being/attention and, meditation is a great tool for it, besides life shocks! :D

So, personally I do not look for the state of stillness (or any other feel-good state) any more.

Ok, now, not everyone who meditates do so in order to achieve any feel-good state but simply as another tool (powerful) tool to bring attention out of identifications wich in turn brings a new awareness.

Can we be conscious? It is all a question of energies and their relation, with each energy always controlled by a finer one that is more active, more animating, like a magnet. The energy used in our functions—our thoughts, our emotions, our sensations—is passive, inert.
Spent in movements towards the outside, this energy suffices quality for our life as higher animal, but is not fine enough for an inner act of perception, of consciousness.
Nevertheless, we do have some power of attention, at least on the surface, some capacity to point the attention in a desired direction and hold it there. Although it is fragile, this sees or bud of attention is consciousness emerging from deep within us. For it to grow, we need to learn to concentrate, to develop this capacity indispensable for preparing the ground. This is the first thing that we do ourselves, not dependent on anyone else.

My efforts have been to look at self-remembering as an effort to remember in the moment those parts of the personality structure which aspire to a higher ideal of service. I am inclined to think that the state of prolonged self-consciousness (G's third state of consciousness) is likely to be a gift which could be received only when the lower biological and socially conditioned impulses can be tempered and controlled by a higher impulse which essentially says " I wish to be of service to the universe". I am far away from reaching this level but that is what I am aspiring to.

I would say that the main “achievement” of working on self remembering is the realization of the observer/the watcher. Wich is “attained” once enough energy/attention is liberated from identifications. The third state of consciousness may be characterized by a stable/always present observer, the observer is the bridge between our two natures ie lower and higher centers.

The practice of being present is self-remembering. Instead of being taken outward, the attention of the functions is turned toward the inside for a moment of consciousness. Perhaps I will not come to a state that is satisfying. It does not matter. What is important is the effort to be present. We cannot always find a better state that brings a feeling of something new. We feel unable and conclude that there is nothing permanent in us on wich we can rely. But it is not true.
There is something in a better state, we can see that we have in us all the elements necessary to come to it. The elements are already here.
Whom is present—who is seeing? And whom? The whole problem is here. In order to observe ourselves we need attention, that is different from our ordinary attention. We undertake the struggle to be vigilant, to watch—the struggle of the watchman. We seek to have a watchman in us who is stable. The one who watches is the one who is present. Only the watchman is active. The rest of me is passive.

We must learn to distinguish between the real “I”, wich is nowhere to be seen, and the personality, wich takes over and believes it is the only one who exist.

Observation of myself shows me how better to concentrate and strengthens the attention.

When I awaken, I make an effort to disengange enough attention to oppose this dispersion, and to see it.

 

[go2]

If I understand what is being taught about the Work correctly, it is eventually possible to split off a part of my attention so that there is always some attention on the star, even while attention is also on the business at hand, using my imperfect analogy. In my own experience, this isn't something that just suddenly happens. A great deal of effort and constant alertness needs to happen just to get a somewhat fuzzy and imperfect approximation of this going.

It really is directing attention in the direction of something that is 'light as a feather', because even though it is always present in me, most of the time my attention is completely captivated by thoughts, feelings, reactions, sensations and mechanical behavior. Self-remembering is everything that constitutes my efforts towards having some attention at least going in the direction of that part that just IS.

The thing is you do not find yourself in this state by trying to “achieve” this state or by trying to direct your attention because you don't know where do you need to direct attention to find this state, the only thing you can do is to free the attention wich is identified and trapped in thoughts, emotions, reactions, sensations and mechanical behavior, you do this by always trying to observe what is "happening".

“Not one of you has noticed the most important thing that I have pointed out to you,” he said. “That is to say, not one of you has noticed that you do not remember yourselves.” (He gave particular emphasis to these words.) “You do not feel yourselves; you are not conscious of yourselves. With you, “it observes’ just as ‘it speaks’, ‘it thinks’, ‘it laughs’. You do not feel: I observe, I notice, I see. Everything still ‘is noticed,’ ‘is seen.’ …In order really to observe oneself one must first of all remember oneself.” (He again emphasized these words.) “Try to remember yourselves when you observe yourselves and later on tell me the results. Only those results will have value that are accompanied by self remembering. Otherwise you yourselves do not exist in your observations. In which case what are all your observations worth?”

Gurdjieff makes clear from the beginning we must self-remember to make self-observation possible. It is the Fourth Way method to Work with Directed Attention. When you observe; you are focusing, choosing, and giving meaning to an external or internal event. You are Directing Attention. Attention is directed toward the three centers of sensing, feeling, and thinking simultaneously, if we are to be less than a dog. Isn’t self-observing the directing of attention?

“…ordinary conditions of life we do not remember ourselves; we do not remember, that is, we do not feel ourselves at the moment of a perception, of an emotion, of a thought or of an action….Moreover, it very often happens that the additional sensation connected with self-remembering brings with it an element of emotion, that is, the work of the machine attracts a certain amount of ‘carbon’ 12 to the place in question. Efforts to remember oneself, observation of oneself at the moment of receiving an impression, observation of one’s impressions at the moment of receiving them, registering, so to speak, the reception of impressions and the simultaneous defining of the impressions received, all this taken together doubles the intensity of the impressions and carries do 48 to re 24.

So, attention must be directed to the incoming external impressions, internal feeling reactions, and associative thinking. The attention which is distributed and present in potential in the quiet state, must focus, separate, and assign meaning to the incoming images. We must labor and suffer to self-remember and self-observe. The struggle to accomplish this task strengthens the Will to Direct Attention. We may not know exactly what we are doing or we may not have the strength to achieve self-remembering when we begin, but we must make the effort or we cannot understand what is being said in this excellent discussion.

Part of this state of affairs is due to the fact that our much diminished and fractured Will must not only direct the Attention (to ‘illuminate’ the images which comprise the impression), but must also divide that Attention and direct a portion of it back toward the Will itself. The Will, or Singular Presence, (or nascent “I”) is paradoxically illuminated by one of its own powers. This would represent the fleeting, but real germination of the process/state of Self-Remembering.

Ana, Thank you for clarifying your earlier post, by focusing on the effort to observe identification and to become impartial with our Attention. I think Self-Remembering strengthens the Will. Attention is an aspect of Will. Will is an aspect of His Endlessness. I see it is possible to do God's Will.

 

[obyvatel]

In my very limited experience, one after-effect of the state of silence was a distaste for daily life with all its burdens and a desire to try and prolong the state of silence. I realized why people shun society to go and meditate in the mountains - it was much better than facing daily life. After encountering Laura's works and the 4th way Work, I realized that this was a selfish desire - STS to the core. Whom does such a desire serve except only the self?

I understand your concern but I think we need to be careful not to throw the baby out with the bath water, when talking about meditating in order to bring amounts of being/attention, no one is rejecting the work that must continue in all aspects of our lives , and remember that the finality of all the work is to grow in being to achieve real knowledge, there is no way to achieve real knowledge(understanding) without being/attention and, meditation is a great tool for it, besides life shocks! :D

Hi Ana,
Yes. I think what you say is true. It was not my intention to knock meditation (I do EE regularly) or anyone meditating to to increase being. I was sharing some of my personal experiences with the state of stillness at a stage of life where I had no idea about the Work.

[quote author=Ana]

So, personally I do not look for the state of stillness (or any other feel-good state) any more.

Ok, now, not everyone who meditates do so in order to achieve any feel-good state but simply as another tool (powerful) tool to bring attention out of identifications wich in turn brings a new awareness.
[/quote]
You are right. I was sharing my current preferences based on past experience. I did not intend to give the impression that every meditator is looking for a feel-good experience. If it came out like that, then my apologies.

 

[Harold]

I could use some feedback on this self talk. I have a program saying how crazy it is. Even though I don't think so or I wouldn't be doing it. This is normal? Right? It is very different from having the negative programming voices.

If it is "very different from having the negative programming voices", could it be internal pressure to establish an overview of your situation that holds a picture of a maximally efficient organization strategy? I don't know, just asking.

yes it is very different from negative prog voices. It is definetly an organization strategy type of talk, firm, but friendly. Pointing out what I need to do in that situation, only happens when Im alone and thinking or recapitulating about my actions etc.