Self Remembering

Guardian said:
I understand this part...the body is a machine. Soul hops in a body 'cause it wants to go for a ride....learn something, accomplish something, whatever. Zoooommmmmm...a itty bitty portion of soul is now in an organic mechanical device for some purpose we can't remember while we're in the meat suit.

Not quite, and this might help you answer your questions in the rest of your post. It's not just the meat sack that is mechanical in man's current state. It's the meatsack, the mind, even the heart, as it were. The soul barely plays a part, other than silent observer and nudger in certain directions for the vast majority of humanity. So, it's the whole thing - the intellect works on its own, the emotions work on their own, the meat sack works on its own, when, ideally, they should all work together to connect to and be guided by the 'soul'- but - man isn't coherent enough - fused enough - 'one' enough for that to be the case due to the unnatural state of current existence. Now - the answers to all your other questions actually fall into place when you realize it's ALL aspects of man that are mechanical, not just the meatsack. And - yeah - it's beyond sad.
 
Guardian said:
anart said:
It will explain what is meant by 'mechanical self'.
Actually, it's what confused me ...and that may be because I read the wrong version. It had a VERY distinct Rosicrucian flavor to it.

I've heard that said before too, but I don't know the Rosi's that well. My impression is that Gurdjieff's Work is Eastern Orthodox depth psychology stripped of its overtly Christian trappings so as not to be off-putting to the orange wranglers of his day.


Guardian said:
The one I got was a pretty good book, but it was kinda sad in a way. He thinks of Nature as an OUTSIDE force, and I don't think this poor guy ever realized that being connected to EVERYTHING is our natural state of being.

I believe he does realize it, but he knows he is speaking to people stuck within narrow frames of references. People who are disconnected from everything due to their "unnatural conditions" and unable to cross that narcissistic boundary between self and rest of universe.
 
Guardian, Gurdjieff probably does think of "nature" differently than you do. He refers to what we know of as nature as "organic life." He says organic life serves a purpose in absorbing and transferring energy in the cosmos, but it is not the be-all and end-all of existence. He also says that organic life's purpose may not work to the best interest of individuals who are trying to grow a soul. (This is from memory, so I will look up some quotes in the book to check what I said. )

It's like 3D organic life is not the goal of the Cs either, since they are not physical. So some of us would like to grow beyond "organic life" which in 3D seems to be eat or be eaten. Is that all there is?
 
anart said:
Yes, that's the right book, and I think you're misunderstanding him.

I think you're right ...and a lot of it really does come down to how we use particular words.

Also, remember that Laura threw this book across the room a bunch of times before she finally realized he was onto something. ;)

I just wanted to hug the poor guy, take him for a long walk in the woods, introduce him to a tree or two and tell him "Dude, you're not really alone, the whole "individual" thing is a big joke"

Basically, the point is that humanity, as it is, lives in an unnatural state in which one is almost completely disconnected from his/her true self and reality.

That would be "Nature" right??


An example that comes to mind for me about you is your reaction to the Gulf spill and just 'having' to go down there. That was a mechanical reaction - (all reactions are mechanical - they are not actions).

So instinct is mechanical?

In that case, your emotions were (temporarily) over-riding your intellect.

Yeah, my emotions and my intellect are fussing with each other almost constantly ...which is exactly why I go with my intuition whenever possible.

Actions are different but the vast majority of people are incapable of action.

I have noticed that...VERY annoying!

I think you understand the idea behind programs and it's not really very different from that.

That's exactly what I was thinking, then I totally confused myself ...again. :rolleyes:
 
anart said:
Not quite, and this might help you answer your questions in the rest of your post. It's not just the meat sack that is mechanical in man's current state. It's the meatsack, the mind, even the heart, as it were.

Huh? The mind, heart, etc. are all part of the organic meat machine...it's a package deal ;)

The soul barely plays a part, other than silent observer and nudger in certain directions for the vast majority of humanity.

Really? That's gotta suck. Mine's as mouthy as the meat suit it's sitting in and I've always thought some people were just choosing to ignore theirs in favor of physical pleasures. You're saying they can't "hear" their own souls at all...or barely?

So, it's the whole thing - the intellect works on its own, the emotions work on their own, the meat sack works on its own,
when, ideally, they should all work together to connect to and be guided by the 'soul'- but - man isn't coherent enough - fused enough - 'one' enough for that to be the case due to the unnatural state of current existence. Now - the answers to all your other questions actually fall into place when you realize it's ALL aspects of man that are mechanical, not just the meatsack. And - yeah - it's beyond sad.

Do you think/believe that your entire soul is in the meat suit, that this consciousness, reality, etc. is the only one you're in right now?
 
Mr. Premise said:
Guardian, Gurdjieff probably does think of "nature" differently than you do. He refers to what we know of as nature as "organic life." He says organic life serves a purpose in absorbing and transferring energy in the cosmos, but it is not the be-all and end-all of existence. He also says that organic life's purpose may not work to the best interest of individuals who are trying to grow a soul. (This is from memory, so I will look up some quotes in the book to check what I said. )

It's like 3D organic life is not the goal of the Cs either, since they are not physical. So some of us would like to grow beyond "organic life" which in 3D seems to be eat or be eaten. Is that all there is?

On the other hand, if you look at the Cosmos as a whole as “nature” instead of just "organic life" then things are different as far as that separation you see. Ouspensky writes on p. 25:

What interested me in this talk was that G. spoke of the planets and the moon as living beings, having definite ages, a definite period of life and possibilities of development and transition to other planes of being.
 
Mr. Premise said:
Mr. Premise said:
Guardian, Gurdjieff probably does think of "nature" differently than you do. He refers to what we know of as nature as "organic life." He says organic life serves a purpose in absorbing and transferring energy in the cosmos, but it is not the be-all and end-all of existence. He also says that organic life's purpose may not work to the best interest of individuals who are trying to grow a soul. (This is from memory, so I will look up some quotes in the book to check what I said. )

It's like 3D organic life is not the goal of the Cs either, since they are not physical. So some of us would like to grow beyond "organic life" which in 3D seems to be eat or be eaten. Is that all there is?

On the other hand, if you look at the Cosmos as a whole as “nature” instead of just "organic life" then things are different as far as that separation you see. Ouspensky writes on p. 25:

What interested me in this talk was that G. spoke of the planets and the moon as living beings, having definite ages, a definite period of life and possibilities of development and transition to other planes of being.

Another quote from p. 305:

"To ordinary knowledge," he said, "organic life is a kind of accidental appendage violating the integrity of a mechanical system. Ordinary knowledge does not connect it with anything and draws no conclusions from the fact of its existence. But you should already understand that there is nothing accidental or unnecessary in nature and that there can be nothing; everything has a definite function; everything serves a definite purpose. Thus organic life is an indispensable link in the chain of worlds which cannot exist without it just as it cannot exist without them. It has been said before that organic life transmits planetary influences of various kinds to the earth and that it serves to feed the moon and to enable it to grow and strengthen...
 
Mr. Premise said:
What interested me in this talk was that G. spoke of the planets and the moon as living beings, having definite ages, a definite period of life and possibilities of development and transition to other planes of being.

YES!! Finally something I understand, Nature is everything, and everything is ALIVE. :D
 
Guardian said:
Huh? The mind, heart, etc. are all part of the organic meat machine...it's a package deal ;)

I don't think you're understanding me, but that's ok.


Really? That's gotta suck. Mine's as mouthy as the meat suit it's sitting in and I've always thought some people were just choosing to ignore theirs in favor of physical pleasures. You're saying they can't "hear" their own souls at all...or barely?

That is a very subtle point and involves the difference between 'soul' and everything else that runs through a body and mind - and that's a lot.
 
anart said:
Not quite, and this might help you answer your questions in the rest of your post. It's not just the meat sack that is mechanical in man's current state. It's the meatsack, the mind, even the heart, as it were. The soul barely plays a part, other than silent observer and nudger in certain directions for the vast majority of humanity. So, it's the whole thing - the intellect works on its own, the emotions work on their own, the meat sack works on its own, when, ideally, they should all work together to connect to and be guided by the 'soul'- but - man isn't coherent enough - fused enough - 'one' enough for that to be the case due to the unnatural state of current existence. Now - the answers to all your other questions actually fall into place when you realize it's ALL aspects of man that are mechanical, not just the meatsack. And - yeah - it's beyond sad.
I misunderstood something. I don't know if someone could help me. Are we souls?? or the union or energy of all the characteristics anart wrote???
 
Here are a couple of passages from Gurdjieff / Ouspensky, that bring together some of the ideas being discussed, noting especially the concept of levels of consciousness. Helpful to think about how that relates to being mechanical, also to the idea of soul - that we think we already have one, when really it exists (or our connection to it) in potential only.

Also we see the problem of words, definitions, how it is important to be accurate when trying to discuss these kind of ideas. Also how difficult it is anyway as we're trying to discuss/describe/define things that as we are we don't actually have beyond perhaps rare glimpses.

In Search of the Miraculous said:
On one occasion while talking with G. I asked him whether he considered it possible to attain "cosmic consciousness," not for a brief moment only but for a longer period. I understood the expression "cosmic consciousness" in the sense of a higher consciousness possible for man in the sense in which I had previously written about it in my book Tertium Organum.

"I do not know what you call 'cosmic consciousness,' " said G., "it is a vague and indefinite term; anyone can call anything he likes by it. In most cases what is called 'cosmic consciousness' is simply fantasy, associative daydreaming connected with intensified work of the emotional center. Sometimes it comes near to ecstasy but most often it is merely a subjective emotional experience on the level of dreams. But even apart from all this before we can speak of 'cosmic consciousness' we must define in general what consciousness is.

"How do you define consciousness?"

"Consciousness is considered to be indefinable," I said, "and indeed, how can it be defined if it is an inner quality? With the ordinary means at our disposal it is impossible to prove the presence of consciousness in another man. We know it only in ourselves."
"All this is rubbish," said G., "the usual scientific sophistry. It is time you got rid of it. Only one thing is true in what you have said: that you can know consciousness only in yourself. Observe that I say you can know, for you can know it only when you have it. And when you have not got it, you can know that you have not got it, not at that very moment, but afterwards. I mean that when it comes again you can see that it has been absent a long time, and you can find or remember the moment when it disappeared and when it reappeared. You can also define the moments when you are nearer to consciousness and further away from consciousness. But by observing in yourself the appearance and the disappearance of consciousness you will inevitably see one fact which you neither see nor acknowledge now, and that is that moments of consciousness are very short and are separated by long intervals of completely unconscious, mechanical working of the machine. You will then see that you can think, feel, act speak, work, without being conscious of it. And if you learn to see in yourselves the moments of consciousness and the long periods of mechanicalness, you will as infallibly see in other people when they are conscious of what they are doing and when they are not.

"Your principal mistake consists in thinking that you always have consciousness, and in general, either that consciousness is always present or that it is never present. In reality consciousness is a property which is continually changing. Now it is present, now it is not present. And there are different degrees and different levels of consciousness. Both consciousness and the different degrees of consciousness must be understood in oneself by sensation, by taste. No definitions can help you in this case and no definitions are possible so long as you do not understand what you have to define. And science and philosophy cannot define consciousness because they want to define it where it does not exist. It is necessary to distinguish consciousness from the possibility of consciousness. We have-only the possibility of consciousness and rare flashes of it. Therefore we cannot define what consciousness is."

I cannot say that what was said about consciousness became clear to me at once. But one of the subsequent talks explained to me the principles on which these arguments were based.

On one occasion at the beginning of a meeting G. put a question to which all those present had to answer in turn. The question was; "What is the most important thing that we notice during self-observation?"

Some of those present said that during attempts at self-observation, what they had felt particularly strongly was an incessant flow of thoughts which they had found impossible to stop. Others spoke of the difficulty of distinguishing the work of one center from the work of another. I had evidently not altogether understood the question, or I answered my own thoughts, because I said that what struck me most was the connectedness of one thing with another in the system, the wholeness of the system, as if it were an "organism," and the entirely new significance of the word to know which included not only the idea of knowing this thing or that, but the connection between this thing and everything else.

G. was obviously dissatisfied with our replies. I had already begun to understand him in such circumstances and I saw that he expected from us indications of something definite that we had either missed or failed to understand.

"Not one of you has noticed the most important thing that I have pointed out to you," he said. "That is to say, not one of you has noticed that you do not remember yourselves." (He gave particular emphasis to these words.) "You do not feel yourselves; you are not conscious of yourselves. With you, 'it observes' just as 'it speaks' 'it thinks,' 'it laughs.' You do not feel: I observe, I notice, I see. Everything still 'is noticed,' 'is seen.' ... In order really to observe oneself one must first of all remember oneself" (He again emphasized these words.) "Try to remember yourselves when you observe yourselves and later on tell me the results. Only those results will have any value that are accompanied by self-remembering. Otherwise you yourselves do not exist in your observations. In which case what are all your observations worth?"

These words of G.'s made me think a great deal. It seemed to me at once that they were the key to what he had said before about consciousness. But I decided to draw no conclusions whatever, but to try to remember myself while observing myself.

The very first attempts showed me how difficult it was. Attempts at self remembering failed to give any results except to show me that in actual fact we never remember ourselves.

"What else do you want?" said G. "This is a very important realization. People who know this" (he emphasized these words) "already know a great deal. The whole trouble is that nobody knows it. If you ask a man whether he can remember himself, he will of course answer that he can. If you tell him that he cannot remember himself, he will either be angry with you, or he will think you an utter fool. The whole of life is based on this, the whole of human existence, the whole of human blindness. If a man really knows that he cannot remember himself, he is already near to the understanding of his being."

All that G. said, all that I myself thought, and especially all that my attempts at self remembering had shown me, very soon convinced me that I was faced with an entirely new problem which science and philosophy had not, so far, come across.

[...]

I am speaking of the division of attention which is the characteristic feature of selfremembering. I represented it to myself in the following way: When I observe something, my attention is directed towards what I observe—a line with one arrowhead:

I ————————> the observed phenomenon.

When at the same time, I try to remember myself, my attention is directed both towards the object observed and towards myself. A second arrowhead appears on the line:

I <———————> the observed phenomenon.

Having defined this I saw that the problem consisted in directing attention on oneself without weakening or obliterating the attention directed on something else. Moreover this "something else" could as well be within me as outside me.
The very first attempts at such a division of attention showed me its possibility. At the same time I saw two things clearly.

In the first place I saw that self-remembering resulting from this method had nothing in common with "self-feeling," or "self-analysis." It was a new and very interesting state with a strangely familiar flavor.

And secondly I realized that moments of self-remembering do occur in life, although rarely. Only the deliberate production of these moments created the sensation of novelty. Actually I had been familiar with them from early childhood. They came either in new and unexpected surroundings, in a new place, among new people while traveling, for instance, when suddenly one looks about one and says: How strange! I and in this place; or in very emotional moments, in moments of danger, in moments when it is necessary to keep one's head, when one hears one's own voice and sees and observes oneself from the outside.

I saw quite clearly that my first recollections of life, in my own case very early ones, were moments of self-remembering. This last realization revealed much else to me. That is, I saw that I really only remember those moments of the past in which I remembered myself. Of the others I know only that they took place. I am not able wholly to revive them, to experience them again. But the moments when I had remembered myself were alive and were in no way different from the present. I was still afraid to come to conclusions. But I already saw that I stood upon the threshold of a very great discovery. I had always been astonished at the weakness and the insufficiency of our memory. So many things disappear. For some reason or other the chief absurdity of life for me consisted in this. Why experience so much in order to forget it after-'wards? Besides there was something degrading in this. A man feels something which seems to him very big, he thinks he will never forget it; one or two years pass by—and nothing remains of it. It now became clear to me why this was so and why it could not be otherwise. If our memory really keeps alive only moments of self-remembering, it is clear why our memory is so poor.

All these were the realizations of the first days. Later, when I began to learn to divide attention, I saw that self-remembering gave wonderful sensations which, in a natural way, that is, by themselves, come to us only very seldom and in exceptional conditions. Thus, for instance, at that time I used very much to like to wander through St. Petersburg at night and to "sense" the houses and the streets. St. Petersburg is full of these strange sensations. Houses, especially old houses, were quite alive, I all but spoke to them. There was no "imagination" in it. I did not think of anything, I simply walked along while trying to remember myself and looked about; the sensations came by themselves.
Later on I was to discover many unexpected things in the same way. But I will speak of this further on.

Sometimes self-remembering was not successful; at other times it was accompanied by curious observations.

I was once walking along the Liteiny towards the Nevsky, and in spite of all my efforts I was unable to keep my attention on self-remembering. The noise, movement, everything distracted me. Every minute I lost the thread of attention, found it again, and then lost it again. At last I felt a kind of ridiculous irritation with myself and I turned into the street on the left having firmly decided to keep my attention on the fact that I would remember myself at least for some time, at any rate until I reached the following street. I reached the Nadejdinskaya without losing the thread of attention except, perhaps, for short moments. Then I again turned towards the Nevsky realizing that, in quiet streets, it was easier for me not to lose the line of thought and wishing therefore to test myself in more noisy streets. I reached the Nevsky still remembering myself, and was already beginning to experience the strange emotional state of inner peace and confidence which comes after great efforts of this kind. Just round the corner on the Nevsky was a tobacconist's shop where they made my cigarettes. Still remembering myself I thought I would call there and order some cigarettes.

Two hours later I woke up in the Tavricheskaya, that is, far away. I was going by izvostchik to the printers. The sensation of awakening was extraordinarily vivid. I can almost say that I came to. I remembered everything at once. How I had been walking along the Nadejdinskaya, how I had been remembering myself, how I had thought about cigarettes, and how at this thought I seemed all at once to fall and disappear into a deep sleep.

At the same time, while immersed in this sleep, I had continued to perform consistent and expedient actions. I left the tobacconist, called at my Hat in the Liteiny, telephoned to the printers. I wrote two letters.

Then again I went out of the house. I walked on the left side of the Nevsky up to the Gostinoy Dvor intending to go to the Offitzerskaya. Then I had changed my mind as it was getting late. I had taken an izvostchik and was driving to the Kavalergardskaya to my printers. And on the way while driving along the Tavricheskaya I began to feel a strange uneasiness, as though I had forgotten something. — And suddenly I remembered that I had forgotten to remember myself.

[…]

At one of the following lectures G. returned to the question of consciousness.

"Neither the psychical nor the physical functions of man can be understood," he said, "unless the fact has been grasped that they can both work in different states of consciousness.

"In all there are four states of consciousness possible for man" (he emphasized the word "man"), "But ordinary man, that is, man number one, number two, and number three, lives in the two lowest states of consciousness only. The two higher states of consciousness are inaccessible to him, and although he may have flashes of these states, he is unable to understand them and he judges them from the point of view of those states in which it is usual for him to be.

"The two usual, that is, the lowest, states of consciousness are first, sleep, in other words a passive state in which man spends a third and very often a half of his life. And second, the state in which men spend the other part of their lives, in which they walk the streets, write books, talk on lofty subjects, take part in politics, kill one another, which they regard as active and call 'clear consciousness' or the 'waking state of consciousness.' The term 'clear consciousness' or 'waking state of consciousness' seems to have been given in jest, especially when you realize what clear consciousness ought in reality to be and what the state in which man lives and acts really is.

"The third state of consciousness is self-remembering or self-consciousness or consciousness of one's being. It is usual to consider that we have this state of consciousness or that we can have it if we want it. Our science and philosophy have overlooked the fact that we do not possess this state of consciousness and that we cannot create it in ourselves by desire or decision alone.

"The fourth state of consciousness is called the objective state of consciousness. In this state a man can see things as they are. Flashes of this state of consciousness also occur in man. In the religions of all nations there are indications of the possibility of a state of consciousness of this kind which is called 'enlightenment' and various other names but which cannot be described in words. But the only right way to objective consciousness is through the development of self-consciousness. If an ordinary man is artificially brought into a state of objective consciousness and afterwards brought back to his usual state he will remember nothing and he will think that for a time he had lost consciousness. But in the state of self-consciousness a man can have Hashes of objective consciousness and remember them.

"The fourth state of consciousness in man means an altogether different state of being; it is the result of inner growth and of long and difficult work on oneself.

"But the third state of consciousness constitutes the natural right of man as he is, and if man does not possess it, it is only because of the wrong conditions of his life. It can be said without any exaggeration that at the present time the third state of consciousness occurs in man only in the form of very rare flashes and that it can be made more or less permanent in him only by means of special training.

"For most people, even for educated and thinking people, the chief obstacle in the way of acquiring self-consciousness consists in the fact that they think they possess it, that is, that they possess self-consciousness and everything connected with it; individuality in the sense of a permanent and unchangeable I, will, ability to do, and so on. It is evident that a man will not be interested if you tell him that he can acquire by long and difficult work something which, in his opinion, he already has. On the contrary he will think either that you are mad or that you want to deceive him with a view to personal gain.

"The two higher states of consciousness—'self-consciousness' and 'objective consciousness'—are connected with the functioning of the higher centers in man.

"In addition to those centers of which we have so far spoken there are two other centers in man, the 'higher emotional' and the 'higher thinking.' These centers are in us; they are fully developed and are working all the time, but their work fails to reach our ordinary consciousness. The cause of this lies in the special properties of our so called 'clear consciousness.'

"In order to understand what the difference between states of consciousness is, let us return to the first state of consciousness which is sleep. This is an entirely subjective state of consciousness. A man is immersed in dreams, whether he remembers them or not does not matter. Even if some real impressions reach him, such as sounds, voices, warmth, cold, the sensation of his own body, they arouse in him only fantastic subjective images. Then a man wakes up. At first glance this is a quite different state of consciousness. He can move, he can talk with other people, he can make calculations ahead, he can see danger and avoid it, and so on. It stands to reason that he is in a better position than when he was asleep. But if we go a little more deeply into things, if we take a look into his inner world, into his thoughts, into the causes of his actions, we shall see that he is in almost the same state as when he is asleep. And it is even worse, because in sleep he is passive, that is, he cannot do anything. In the waking state, however, he can do something all the time and the results of all his actions will be reflected upon him or upon those around him. And yet he does not remember himself. He is a machine, everything with him happens. He cannot stop the flow of his thoughts, he cannot control his imagination, his emotions, his attention. He lives in a subjective world of 'I love,' 'I do not love,' 'I like,' 'I do not like,' 'I want,' 'I do not want,' that is, of what he thinks he likes, of what he thinks he does not like, of what he thinks he wants, of what he thinks he does not want. He does not see the real world. The real world is hidden from him by the wall of imagination. He lives in sleep. He is asleep. What is called 'clear consciousness' is sleep and a far more dangerous sleep than sleep at night in bed.

"Let us take some event in the life of humanity. For instance, war. There is a war going on at the present moment. What does it signify? It signifies that several millions of sleeping people are trying to destroy several millions of other sleeping people. They would not do this, of course, if they were to wake up. Everything that takes place is owing to this sleep.

Think about that last paragraph above in terms of psychopathy, global ponerisation, and you really start to get an idea of "the terror of the situation".

ISOTM said:
"Both states of consciousness, sleep and the waking state, are equally subjective. Only by beginning to remember himself does a man really awaken. And then all surrounding life acquires for him a different aspect and a different meaning. He sees that it is the life of sleeping people, a life in sleep. All that men say, all that they do, they say and do in sleep. All this can have no value whatever. Only awakening and what leads to awakening has a value in reality.
 
Alada said:
Here are a couple of passages from Gurdjieff / Ouspensky, that bring together some of the ideas being discussed, noting especially the concept of levels of consciousness. Helpful to think about how that relates to being mechanical, also to the idea of soul - that we think we already have one, when really it exists (or our connection to it) in potential only.

Alrighty then, I think I just self remembered why I stopped reading all the philosophy stuff years ago ;D
Seriously though, these guys experiences just don't seem to match my own, not even close...and that's ok. Maybe we're different critters, or I could just be bat-shyt crazy, and that's ok too...as long as I don't bite anybody.

At least I have a MUCH better grasp on the definitions yawl are using...and I thank yawl for that. :flowers:
 
Guardian said:
An example that comes to mind for me about you is your reaction to the Gulf spill and just 'having' to go down there. That was a mechanical reaction - (all reactions are mechanical - they are not actions).

So instinct is mechanical?

FWIW, I didn't see the example of you going down to the Gulf as mechanical. I can't know that without seeing the whole picture. I saw it as acting on impulse (and I have plenty of experience with that).

If the impulse came from the negative half of the lower emotional center where our 'programs' run in a stimulus-response fashion, then the behavior could be called mechanical.

If the impulse came from a place of intuition, induction, or somewhere associated with the higher part of us (what you call soul or instinct), then I would call it creative (not-mechanical).

Then again, I might be the crazy one too, but this is how I experience myself and life. :)
 
Bud said:
Guardian said:
An example that comes to mind for me about you is your reaction to the Gulf spill and just 'having' to go down there. That was a mechanical reaction - (all reactions are mechanical - they are not actions).

So instinct is mechanical?

FWIW, I didn't see the example of you going down to the Gulf as mechanical. I can't know that without seeing the whole picture. I saw it as acting on impulse (and I have plenty of experience with that).

If the impulse came from the negative half of the lower emotional center where our 'programs' run in a stimulus-response fashion, then the behavior could be called mechanical.

If the impulse came from a place of intuition, induction, or somewhere associated with the higher part of us (what you call soul or instinct), then I would call it creative (not-mechanical).

Then again, I might be the crazy one too, but this is how I experience myself and life. :)

The reason I define that reaction as mechanical is two fold. First - it was a REaction and very emotional. Secondly, considering Guardian's health, to go there would have been tantamount to suicide. If you will recall, it took major input from her personal friends and the forum for her to finally decide it was wiser not to go. It was an emotional reaction that did not encompass all consequences/implications - in that it was mechanical. If it had been intuition, it would have been faulty, unless that intuition was, "I will die much more quickly if I go there". Ultimately, I think her intuition was, "I will die much more quickly if I go there, no matter how much I want to because 'rescuing' is what I 'do'". Does that make sense?
 
Bud said:
FWIW, I didn't see the example of you going down to the Gulf as mechanical.

Me either, but if it was mechanical... I wouldn't, soooooooo.... :huh:

I can't know that without seeing the whole picture. I saw it as acting on impulse (and I have plenty of experience with that).

I saw it as what is commonly called "Rescue Instinct" ...which some people say is inborn (genetic) and some people say is learned, usually at a very early age.... soooooooo :huh:


Then again, I might be the crazy one too, but this is how I experience myself and life. :)

We could both be crazy, in fact if one of us is, chances are good that both of us are since crazy people don't seem to get along well with sane people ;D
 
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