Self Remembering

[Guardian]

The reason I define that reaction as mechanical is two fold. First - it was a REaction and very emotional.

Yes, what's called the "Rescue Instinct" is very much a reaction, and of course it is an emotional one, multiple hormones al la carte

Secondly, considering Guardian's health, to go there would have been tantamount to suicide.

I don't see it this way at all. I'm in better health than just about everyone I know. I am VERY sensitive to chemicals, which is why a respirator and chemical suit would have been mandatory for me...which would have worked just fine, IF it wasn't so hot. It was my inability to tolerate temperatures in the 90's-100's that most affected my decision not to go. If this had happened in the winter, yawl probably would have been getting a live video stream from the Gulf.

If you will recall, it took major input from her personal friends and the forum for her to finally decide it was wiser not to go.

True, ...what I don't get is how asking for input from a wide variety of really smart people BEFORE I act on my instincts is mechanical, unless instincts are themselves considered mechanical?

It was an emotional reaction that did not encompass all consequences/implications - in that it was mechanical.

I don't know how else to "encompass all consequences/implications" without telling my family, friends, etc about my plans and getting their input?

If it had been intuition, it would have been faulty, unless that intuition was, "I will die much more quickly if I go there". Ultimately, I think her intuition was, "I will die much more quickly if I go there, no matter how much I want to because 'rescuing' is what I 'do'". Does that make sense?

Actually, my intuition told me that if I went, I would help some people, and I would survive, but I would SERIOUSLY regret it in the long run.
I can usually tell when I'm hearing from my spirit, because I almost never tell me what I want to hear from there.

 

[Buddy]

An example that comes to mind for me about you is your reaction to the Gulf spill and just 'having' to go down there. That was a mechanical reaction - (all reactions are mechanical - they are not actions).

So instinct is mechanical?

FWIW, I didn't see the example of you going down to the Gulf as mechanical. I can't know that without seeing the whole picture. I saw it as acting on impulse (and I have plenty of experience with that).

If the impulse came from the negative half of the lower emotional center where our 'programs' run in a stimulus-response fashion, then the behavior could be called mechanical.

If the impulse came from a place of intuition, induction, or somewhere associated with the higher part of us (what you call soul or instinct), then I would call it creative (not-mechanical).

Then again, I might be the crazy one too, but this is how I experience myself and life. :)

The reason I define that reaction as mechanical is two fold. First - it was a REaction and very emotional. Secondly, considering Guardian's health, to go there would have been tantamount to suicide. If you will recall, it took major input from her personal friends and the forum for her to finally decide it was wiser not to go. It was an emotional reaction that did not encompass all consequences/implications - in that it was mechanical. If it had been intuition, it would have been faulty, unless that intuition was, "I will die much more quickly if I go there". Ultimately, I think her intuition was, "I will die much more quickly if I go there, no matter how much I want to because 'rescuing' is what I 'do'". Does that make sense?

Yes, that explanation does make that definition of 'mechanical' make sense. Thank you.

To me, the question is "was it really mechanical"? I couldn't make that assessment until I could see more of the picture, though, and Guardian provided that information.

As it happens, I see no reason to believe the impulse came from the stimulus-response mechanical apparatus or from any internal considering position of projecting or protecting a pious self-image. In fact, I see no reason to believe that the pain and compassion that she felt could not run parallel with a creative impulse to save life.

I think it was a higher impulse, accompanied with compassion, that would simply have required knowledge of the dangers and some self-protection in order to have been actualized.

Not that I'm right - I'm just describing what I see.

 

[Approaching Infinity]

Yes, that explanation does make that definition of 'mechanical' make sense. Thank you.

To me, the question is "was it really mechanical"? I couldn't make that assessment until I could see more of the picture, though, and Guardian provided that information.

As it happens, I see no reason to believe the impulse came from the stimulus-response mechanical apparatus or from any internal considering position of projecting or protecting a pious self-image. In fact, I see no reason to believe that the pain and compassion that she felt could not run parallel with a creative impulse to save life.

I think it was a higher impulse, accompanied with compassion, that would simply have required knowledge of the dangers and some self-protection in order to have been actualized.

Not that I'm right - I'm just describing what I see.

In response to Guardian's previous question, I think that, yes, instinct CAN be mechanical. Even the good ones. Take an example like "the White Rose" (the film about the German resistance movement). Those characters were acting on good intentions, but they reacted mechanically. They were not "cunning" in the Gurdjieffian sense. They didn't think through their actions, made careless decisions and paid the ultimate price. Not being mechanical means listening to your instincts, but choosing and acting with a different part - the part that can See, reign in the horses when necessary, and make the choice that is best in the given situation. Sometimes that means not following your instincts. It can be the difference between saving a life and losing your own AND the that of the person you're trying to save.

 

[anart]

I am VERY sensitive to chemicals, which is why a respirator and chemical suit would have been mandatory for me...which would have worked just fine, IF it wasn't so hot. It was my inability to tolerate temperatures in the 90's-100's that most affected my decision not to go.

That's what I was referring to. ;)

Actually, my intuition told me that if I went, [...] I would SERIOUSLY regret it in the long run.

That's what I was referring to. ;)

 

[Guardian]

In response to Guardian's previous question, I think that, yes, instinct CAN be mechanical. Even the good ones. Take an example like "the White Rose" (the film about the German resistance movement). Those characters were acting on good intentions, but they reacted mechanically. They were not "cunning" in the Gurdjieffian sense. They didn't think through their actions, made careless decisions and paid the ultimate price. Not being mechanical means listening to your instincts, but choosing and acting with a different part - the part that can See, reign in the horses when necessary, and make the choice that is best in the given situation. Sometimes that means not following your instincts. It can be the difference between saving a life and losing your own AND the that of the person you're trying to save.

Got'cha...and this certainly jives with what I was taught way back when I was still young, flexible, and smelled good. Whether it comes from genetics, or an early life experience is irrelevant...there's a name for people who possess a "Rescue Instinct" ...but have no training. "Dead"

Even when the decision has to be made in minutes, or even seconds, instead of days/weeks ...there's still a process you go through, as far as you can in the time you've got.

 

[Guardian]

I am VERY sensitive to chemicals, which is why a respirator and chemical suit would have been mandatory for me...which would have worked just fine, IF it wasn't so hot. It was my inability to tolerate temperatures in the 90's-100's that most affected my decision not to go.

That's what I was referring to. ;)

Actually, my intuition told me that if I went, [...] I would SERIOUSLY regret it in the long run.

That's what I was referring to. ;)

 

[Buddy]

I am VERY sensitive to chemicals, which is why a respirator and chemical suit would have been mandatory for me...which would have worked just fine, IF it wasn't so hot. It was my inability to tolerate temperatures in the 90's-100's that most affected my decision not to go.

That's what I was referring to. ;)

Actually, my intuition told me that if I went, [...] I would SERIOUSLY regret it in the long run.

That's what I was referring to. ;)

Perfect! I needed that.

 

[Possibility of Being]

In response to Guardian's previous question, I think that, yes, instinct CAN be mechanical.

Hey AI, could you give an example of not mechanical instincts, please? I'm afraid we may be using here not the same definition of instincts and/or have different understanding of what is mechanical and what isn't.

 

[Approaching Infinity]

In response to Guardian's previous question, I think that, yes, instinct CAN be mechanical.

Hey AI, could you give an example of not mechanical instincts, please? I'm afraid we may be using here not the same definition of instincts and/or have different understanding of what is mechanical and what isn't.

Sorry, that was just me being unclear. Instinct IS mechanical.

Here's Dabrowski's definition, however, which is more specific:

INSTINCT, a fundamental dynamism (force) in the lives of animals and men which has a great intensity, a significant degree of compactness and cohesiveness, its own sphere of activity, and its own direction.

It is common to some animal species and man or peculiar to man only, undergoing a transformation in phylogenetic and ontogenetic development, appearing characteristically at certain phases and levels of development.

This concept differs in several respects from the general use of the term instinct. The main new elements are: (1) Instincts undergo transformations in ontogenetic development. (2) Some instinctive forces occur only among some people, especially among those who have attained a high level of psychic development. (3) The qualification of the forces mentioned in point (2) as instincts is due to their origin from a more fundamental developmental instinct and to the fact that they show strength and compactness, comparable to primitive instinctive drives, and sometimes even greater. (4) Their development and transformation depend not only on the element of intelligence and knowledge conjoined with them, but also on their inter and intrainstinctive conflicts and cooperation.

The typical ontogenetic development of instincts passes through the following stages and levels: (1) A simple, automatic, cohesive structure, with a completely subordinated intellectual function and identified with the will. (2) A loosening of the structure, spasticity, vacillation, conflicts between different instincts of the same general level. (3) Inter- and intrainstinctive disintegration, formation of new, higher instincts (e.g. creative into self perfection). (4) Gradual refinement of higher levels of instincts and elimination of lower ones. (5) High level instincts become an integral part of the disposing and directing center, and thus they become constitutive elements of personality.

 

[mkrnhr]

I think there is a little mixing of the terms instinct and intuition. Usually instinct is meant to be coming from below (mechanical) and intuition is meant to be coming from above (creative) and our problem is that we do not distinguish which is which IMHO

 

[Bluestar]

For me there is a difference between instinct and intuition.

On a layman's perspective:

-instinct is mechanical in the sense that I would not touch a hot stove or if I do this, it will be not so good for me.

-intuition for me is a feeling that comes from within. Not like a feeling of emotions, but a "knowing". My personality
may want to lets say take a certain trip somewhere. It will go over all the details "mechanically" to make this
happen. Then a feeling arises, maybe a small voice within that says "it is not such a good time to take a trip"
The personality may even disregard the warning, make up reasons not to listen to it. Then I have to discern where this is coming
from, my predator's mind that does not want me to take a worthwhile trip or is this something I need to pay attention to.

Definitely see where you are coming from Guardian, the language G uses is confussing to me as well. I have had to read the
book twice and am on my third go through. Have paused in the third go to read Gnosis which is much easier for me to grasp.

My mechanical self plays an active role daily for instance; I walk the dogs every morning in a particular direction. I decide that
tomorrow I will go a different direction. Morning comes and low and behold I am going in the same direction. At some point
I realize my plans from yesterday and I chuckle and change my routine. It was my physical body directing my actions. Then my
intellectual body woke up and remembered the plan. My emotional body laughed at both of the other bodies.

 

[anart]

I think there is a little mixing of the terms instinct and intuition. Usually instinct is meant to be coming from below (mechanical) and intuition is meant to be coming from above (creative) and our problem is that we do not distinguish which is which IMHO

I think that's probably the case. Also, in a person who is riddled with programs (as all people are) it's a very subtle thing to discern between an 'intuition' and a 'triggered program'. I think that until a person is fully 'clean' and 'fused', a LOT of programs being triggered are taken as 'intuition'.

I do know there is genuine 'intuition' because I've experienced it personally and quite often - however - I also know that programs running can really and truly muddy that water.

 

[ana]

We see how Dabrowski first defines instinct as a "fundamental dynamism (force)" and how it changes depending on the phases and levels of development. What I think is that this "fundamental dynamism (force)" is the guiding force of creation deeply involved in the growth and development of each being.

I don't think instincts are inherently mechanichal, I would describe instinct as a fundamental dynamism (force) with lower and higher functions coming from the subconscious.
Anyway it is understandable that a being with a higher instinctive substratum would describe some "lower" instinctive functions this way.
The lower functions of instinct are directly related with self survival it doesn't meant they are inherently mechanical but they become so when confronted with reality situations that can be aproached differently with the proper use of the emotional and intellectual knowledge of the situation.

It is also very common to confuse emotional reactions with instinct functions and they are deeply different, I would say that as we grow and start working on balancing and cleaning the emotional and intellectual centers, higher instinctive functions appear on the scene wich again serve the purpose of guiding the being in life lessons.

Maybe instinct is the "mass of knowledge" wich comes from the depths of our being and each being receives what is ready to receive, as it must be coupled with observation and work on ourselves.

 

[Buddy]

I think there is a little mixing of the terms instinct and intuition. Usually instinct is meant to be coming from below (mechanical) and intuition is meant to be coming from above (creative) and our problem is that we do not distinguish which is which IMHO

To me, it doesn't matter who is doing the talking - to explain anything as instinct is still to leave the listener hungry for substance. My being is somewhat bell-shaped, I suppose, because a few people here have the ability to explain things in a way that resonates throughout as 'true' (rings my bell) and I can feel it, see it and it fits into my single, self-consistent picture of reality. Other remarks and writings have a 'flat' feel and do not fit anywhere, though it may seem sensible to the thinking center.

I have to remind myself, sometimes, that the thinking center only has command of the 'canvas'. The feeling center, or inductive faculty that has connection with the universe all around, is the source for the symbols the thinking center uses (and sometimes mis-uses).

The 'canvas' is flat, with only a 2 dimensional 'context' and we may have to remind ourselves on occasion that we do not create reality or truth with our 'paintings'; rather, we reflect, on the 'inside', what is on the 'outside' or we introduce contradictions and confusions.

Thanks, Ana, for describing the 'blending' effect that can sometimes confuse our sense of what is the cause of what. :)

 

[Guardian]

I think that's probably the case. Also, in a person who is riddled with programs (as all people are) it's a very subtle thing to discern between an 'intuition' and a 'triggered program'. I think that until a person is fully 'clean' and 'fused', a LOT of programs being triggered are taken as 'intuition'.

I do know there is genuine 'intuition' because I've experienced it personally and quite often - however - I also know that programs running can really and truly muddy that water.

To me, "Intuition" provides me with information that I could not possibly have acquired with my ordinary physical senses. I don't know how to better explain it, except with a story about something that actually happened. One such story has become somewhat of a joke among my friends, so I can share it on-line...it's about a crow.

I have a very dear friend who's been teaching me about gardening/farming for the past 6-7 years. She has about a 5 acre garden/farm plot in a 600+ acre track of VERY special and sacred land. She grows a little bit of everything, corn, beans, squash, greens, potatoes etc., sells about 1/4 to 1/2 of her crop to cover expenses (seed, diesel, tractor, etc) and gives the rest away to members of the community, especially Elders, so they'll have good, fresh food. It's most definitely a labor of love for her, and I feel greatly privileged to be allowed to help, and learn from her.

All was beautiful, until an unusually large flock of crows came and started to completely destroy everyone's corn and other crops. We tried everything to frighten them away, blasted horns, strung dozens of shiny pie pans across the tops of the crops, built the standard "scarecrows" ...NOTHING worked. Someone told my friend that if we killed one of the crows and stuck its body on a stick, that it would scare the other crows away. After watching all our hard work being destroyed, I decided I was going to buy a shotgun and kill a crow.

We went to the city, visited numerous sporting goods stores, and I eventually bought a nice Charles Daly semi automatic (I'm NOT going to fire a weapon I can't trust) I ran a few boxes through it since it had been decades since I'd shot clays, then took it to the gardens. We could hear the crows a few fields away, so off I went to do the deed.

I got very close to the crows, had a good downward shot with 4 of them cleanly in my sights...and I couldn't do it. The crows looked right at me like "Yeah, you want something?" I just could not shoot them...and I think they knew it (crow's intuition?) as they didn't even try to fly away, just kept eating. I'm guessing this is a "program" in me? I can not kill an animal I'm not going to eat....and even then, it's HARD. It came as a serious surprise (an disappointment) to me, I was sure I'd be able to shoot the crows, because they are a threat to A LOT of food many people depend on.

So I go trudging back to tell my friend that I'm a failure, she just laughed and said "I didn't think you'd be able to do it" I unloaded the brand new shotgun we'd driven all over half of Western North Carolina to find, put it in the truck, and went back to weeding.

A little while later my friend's daughter and her husband show up, and hubby has NO compunction against shooting crows, so we give him the shotgun and off he goes. About 10-15 minutes later we hear BOOM....BOOM, BOOM in the distance. Hubby comes back, without a crow's body ...and says they took off flying when they saw him, and he must have missed because none fell.

This is where we get to the "Intuition" part ...I KNEW, without ANY question that he'd hit a crow, and that it was hurt but not dead. My friend's daughter and husband left, I tried to keep weeding, but my "Intuition" would not shut up. I told my friend "I think he hit one, and it's hurt, I have to go get it" She just said "ok" and off I went. I walked directly to the injured crow, at least 20 acres away, almost completely concealed by a hedgerow. I could not possibly see, hear, or smell that bird until I was right on top of it, but I KNEW exactly where it was (in hundreds of acres) and went right to it.

At this point the story starts to get a bit comical, because finding the crow and actually catching it were two entirely different issues. First off, those birds are MUCH larger up close than they look from a distance. It was shot through the wing, so it could not fly, but boy could it hop...and it did, right into the hedgerow of blackberry bushes. I'd go one way, and it'd hop the other way, so I called my friend, told her I'd found it but couldn't catch it...and she got in her truck and came to help me. To give you an idea of the distance, it took her longer to find me than it took me to find the crow, and I was standing out in the open giving her directions on the cell phone.

I and my friend spent more than two hours crawling through thorny blackberry bushes before we finally managed to herd it out into the open, throw her coat over the bird and capture it. It was almost dark by the time we got it in a crate. I called around trying to find a vet who would help an injured crow after hours, and got laughed at, A LOT (it is farm country) so I took the poor bird home with me, as it would have been a coyote's dinner otherwise. I gave it a dark quiet place to sleep and hopefully recover...but it didn't.

Despite my best efforts, the crow died sometime that night, in my bathtub. Since it was already dead, I gutted it and stuck it on a pole as recommended. It didn't work, the other crows just looked at it, then looked me like "How could you do that to Ralph?" I felt terrible guilt every time I looked at it's body, and I was SO relieved when another critter climbed the pole and took the body a few days later.

I decided I was going to sell the shotgun because I didn't want the reminder, and this is where the second flash of "Intuition" comes in. As soon as I thought about putting it in the IWANNA paper, I KNEW I should give it to my friend, for her protection. So I did. She lives alone, in a somewhat remote location, and didn't have a firearm. I told her I had a "feeling" she might need it, and that she should practice with it a bit to get the feel of it. She asked me "The same kind of feeling you had about that crow?" I said "Yes" she said "OK" and proceeded to learn how to use and clean the shotgun.

It wasn't long after that she was awakened by the sound of someone outside her house trying to get in. Evidently the sound of a 70 year old woman racking a round in a shotgun is enough to send your average intruder running for his life.

I've spent a lot of time thinking about this incident, and the whole chain of events that followed. Not just because I was the butt of numerous "crow" jokes either. I was VERY disappointed in myself because I could not protect the garden from the crows AND I was VERY upset that an innocent animal suffered so.

BUT...if I had not experienced and felt these things, I doubt I would have given my friend the shotgun. What would that intruder have done if not for the sound of her weapon? Not long after, there was a rash of home invasions in the area, and two elderly people were brutally attacked in Kirkland Creek, which is VERY close to my friend's home.

MAYBE my subconscious could have worked out the need for my friend to own a weapon, but how did I "know" EXACTLY where the injured crow was? That's what I call "Intuition" :)