Session 10 October 2015

[cubbex]

You say that like you think it's a bad thing, but has that fact ever been hidden? Laura started the forum, owns it and her Will guides it toward growth. Those closest to her and her best supporters and helpers are co-linear or at least aligned closely enough to establish a coherence that is necessary for survival and growth. And "same mind set" doesn't even have to be intended. It can develop naturally via feedback loops while exploring and learning about objective reality, which is the same for everyone. A physical analogy of this is your own body-mind complex and coherence within that complex is needed for you to live and grow, isn't it? Coherence might be perceived as "same mind set" from a third-party point of view but isn't one of the goals of "the Work" to attain a similar coherence among "the little I's" within a single individual?

Besides all that, it's been said over and over, on here and by Gurdjieff to his own group members, that in order for a person to begin any Work on self-development aligned to the Aim of work, (s)he must come with a minimum amount of psychological stability. My thoughts on the reasons for that is because, otherwise, the teacher-leader's entire time would be consumed on one person in an intensive psychotherapy sort of thing. Furthermore, the needs of a seriously dysfunctional person may require professional services that the legal establishment has deemed only possible by someone with a medical license.

Changing gears here for a minute, I want to thank you for these longer recent posts of yours. It allows a more accurate and appropriate view of you as an intelligent person than what is available from a one or two line "sound bite." Just my thoughts, though, FWIW.

Also, I'm hoping this interaction, rather than being off-topic, might qualify somehow as examples of "presentation and representation." :)

Well I disagre on certain things, not all. Pathological individuals is one important thing I learned here, I've also said many times the subtle but massive amount Laura has had in society. Laura in particular, and this has been possible by the support of the network. My disagreement is on a few things, little if not, insignificant for some.

And yeah, what Pierre said is true. I don't see it negatively, at the contrary, if someone would depend on one place in particular that would be problematic.

that in order for a person to begin any Work on self-development aligned to the Aim of work, (s)he must come with a minimum amount of psychological stability

Yes. This reminds me of that guy who kept believing on some aryan superiority, lisa guilanni, anartt, and so on and so on. Like the 3 other guys who did the alien videos, and the female mod who if I remember correctly send me a private message threatening with something, I don't remember. All of them received quite support from the network. Interesting.

 

[lainey]

One thing that occurs to me about tattoos is this: if the act is reflective of anger, frustration, hurt, or even just wanting to be part of a "tattooing crowd", the tattoo sort of anchors that energy to the body in a permanent way. You can't fully release the anger, frustration, or hurt without making the tattoo go away also. And you can't move from the "tattooing crowd" to a different social group so easily without also removing the tattoos.

It seems to me that the newly developed tatoo removing cream is the best way to do this because it apparently takes a little time, and during that time, one could focus on the specific issues connected to the individual tattoo.

I was also reading a book the other day that mentions the problem of systemic poisoning from tattoos - we do not really know the effects of putting a bunch of foreign stuff under our skin over the long term. What are the constituents of the inks? How safe are they?

Another thing that occurs to me is that it might be that a person gets tattoos under the influence of spirit attachments and the tattoos might then act as "connections" with that attachment and getting rid of one might also get rid of the other.

http://www.buzzfeed.com/arabellesicardi/tattoo-removal-cream-is-now-a-thing-and-its-gonna-be-cheap#.xl6oxRLjV

http://www.gizmag.com/new-tattoo-removal-cream-results-in-gain-with-no-pain/36107/

This one is apparently available now: _http://www.tatbgone.com/index.html

It's apparently available on amazon where it has bad reviews. So, dunno.

I've been thinking about this too for the past couple of days. I wanted to add that the act of getting a tattoo could also attract attachments as it is a painful process which could leave one open to whatever is hanging around, perhaps attachments could also pass from the tattooist to the person being tattooed.
Their own issues could be put into the "art" they have created. If they are expressing their hurt through their drawing then etching it on another person it could pass that on also?
I ordered a years supply of the tattoo removal cream this morning which should get rid of the ones on my neck and hands and hopefully more. I'm going to write a personal diary of each one to try to uncover the reasons behind them and whichever ones I identify with the most will be the first ones to go.

Edit: I used this website http://tattooremovalcream.co.uk/

 

[no-mans-land]

Yeah maybe I don't know, and maybe neither you and this entire forum don't. Yeah, we all can memorize things but how sure are we to grasp the true meaning of these concepts?

It's a difference between memorizing and understanding. One can memorize a whole book word by word and yet, not understand what is written. Gurdjieff for example once said, that is important to act on the things you actually understand and ignore what you don't understand, since acting on things you don't understand is worse than doing nothing.

So, it's not really important if one grasps the true meaning of the ray of creation for example (if there is one) because there are concepts that can be understood very easily by those who want to. The fact that self-remembering works and that everyone who understood what it does and how to do it, then there can be no differences in the understanding of the concept of "self-remembering" between different people. That's the same with a lot of other basic concepts like the "many I's", the alchemical fire, etc. Those things proved it's objective existence and those who not only know about such things, but also understand them, talk about them in the same way. If one just know about those concepts, but don't understand, it must appear to him that no matter who speak about such concepts, always talk differently about it. Only those who understand can distinguish between those who only talk about it and those who actually understand. It's a fact that we can look down the ladder but not above our own level of understanding.

You can ask as many questions as you want, but the knowledge alone wouldn't help you if you don't utilize it to gain understanding. On the other hand, if you would use the knowledge you already have or is easy accessible to you without the need for a singe question to anyone, and then honestly try to use this knowledge to gain understanding, you wouldn't have made the statement quoted above.

 

[cubbex]

I have another question. Perceaval "suggests" I should stop demanding "simple" answers for complex topics. Laura recently said:

Yes. Something I learned from the Cs, by observing them doing it, is to try to learn to communicate in the language of the target. What good does it do to communicate in word salad or terms that cannot be comprehended by the very individuals you say you want to "talk" to? A person doesn't have to talk or write in high-falutin' language to prove they are intelligent or that they understand complex things. In fact, if you can't explain complex things in simple language, you probably don't understand them yourself.

Clearly I don't apply this, but related to perceaval suggestion. Is this only related to the words you use?

Are some concepts not possible to be explained in simple terms?

Btw, the problem was not the ray of creation, again I accept my wrong frame of questioning. My problem was that "lizzies don't know they ray of creation" stuff, I mean, did the guy did an interview to a lizzie to know what they do or do not know?

Also based on Laura's response about the ray of creation, it is in my understanding that such beings do understand the lovely "ray of creation".

Another question. When the elders told you to stop being so "structured" what did you all understood about this?

So, it's not really important if one grasps the true meaning of the ray of creation for example (if there is one) because there are concepts that can be understood very easily by those who want to. The fact that self-remembering works and that everyone who understood what it does and how to do it, then there can be no differences in the understanding of the concept of "self-remembering" between different people. That's the same with a lot of other basic concepts like the "many I's", the alchemical fire, etc. Those things proved it's objective existence and those who not only know about such things, but also understand them, talk about them in the same way. If one just know about those concepts, but don't understand, it must appear to him that no matter who speak about such concepts, always talk differently about it. Only those who understand can distinguish between those who only talk about it and those who actually understand. It's a fact that we can look down the ladder but not above our own level of understanding.

You can ask as many questions as you want, but the knowledge alone wouldn't help you if you don't utilize it to gain understanding. On the other hand, if you would use the knowledge you already have or is easy accessible to you without the need for a singe question to anyone, and then honestly try to use this knowledge to gain understanding, you wouldn't have made the statement quoted above.

Oh superior being, I don't find problem then, if you all know such things and you all understand them, then why is it not in me to demand for such simple answers? why you cannot come and teach me the secrets of life?

I mean, how sure are you to claim those things. For a forum who praises science, some of their members appear to ignore it when convenient. Now some of you now know the future.

 

[luke wilson]

Prometeo, what's the problem? Clearly something is not right. You are angry and directing it here. In simple terms, please explain why you are acting the way you are right now. What do you want?

The following is not warranted plus some of the other stuff you said earlier

Oh superior being, I don't find problem then....

For a forum who praises science, some of their members appear to ignore it when convenient. Now some of you now know the future.

Why do you say such things knowing what will come as a result of them... offending people, walking all over what people value, have worked hard for etc.. what do you hope to achieve?

 

[casper]

Prometeo, what's the problem? Clearly something is not right. You are angry and directing it here. In simple terms, please explain why you are acting the way you are right now. What do you want?

The following is not warranted plus some of the other stuff you said earlier

Oh superior being, I don't find problem then....

For a forum who praises science, some of their members appear to ignore it when convenient. Now some of you now know the future.

Why do you say such things knowing what will come as a result of them... offending people, walking all over what people value, have worked hard for etc.. what do you hope to achieve?

I read all your posts, until recently it was all OK, what's happening?

 

[Mememe45]

When one presents themselves as a teacher , one carries the greater responsibility to be patient, courtliest and kind.
Especially if one considers oneself aware of "all is one" and "what I do to others I do to myself"
Phrases such as ,"get over yourself" "stop being narcissistic", Stop demanding" are more the comments of a simple and unlearned student than an Elder or teacher.
In this case it is quite reasonable that a person may think that the "teacher is attempting to come across as a "superior being.
A true teacher always uplifts the student and never "puts Down"

 

[wr4]

We may need people like Ark to solve what is Ray of Creation, if it is possible in 3D. Maybe it is something to do with fractal and differend points in it?

 

[cubbex]

I'm very calm right now, I thought I was going to get shocked by some of the answers but I'm so accustomed to read them towards others that it's easy for me to read them, and even if one can notice some members are not so direct in order for them to be polite, some like Joe are very direct to the point of making it sound as if he's angry at me, but this is an assumption and he's probably being just himself. It's the same to me, I'm not angry or being in hulk mode or something, just stating what I think.

In fear of receiving the or some banhammer, I want to make some last questionings and some statements. Better take the chance.

We may need people like Ark to solve what is Ray of Creation, if it is possible in 3D. Maybe it is something to do with fractal and differend points in it?

lol, the ray of creation is an easy concept, if not, is just a fancy way to model the universe. My problem was the "lizzies don't understand the ray of creation".

 

[lainey]

Prometeo, what's the problem? Clearly something is not right. You are angry and directing it here. In simple terms, please explain why you are acting the way you are right now. What do you want?

The following is not warranted plus some of the other stuff you said earlier

Oh superior being, I don't find problem then....

For a forum who praises science, some of their members appear to ignore it when convenient. Now some of you now know the future.

Why do you say such things knowing what will come as a result of them... offending people, walking all over what people value, have worked hard for etc.. what do you hope to achieve?

I read all your posts, until recently it was all OK, what's happening?

I tried searching for a quote but can't find it so to summarise I think what is happening is a person can seem a certain way or "OK" until you scratch them a little and then all kinds of things come to the surface.
It looks like Prometeo is angry at the forum and its methods and is lashing out by being offensive. Unless I am mistaken Prometeo even suggested that Laura was punished for offending him by the trees being torn down which I find ridiculous and self centred.

One day Laura said one thing about, I don't remember the place, it was about the STO candidates being the social ones and the STS ones being the isolationists, by the time I read this, damn if I didn't feel very sad, because I already was feeling bad and for reasons I felt I needed to stay alone, this Laura's statement made me feel worse. that was funny, because it happened close to the day a storm tored down their trees, very very close to that time.

 

[cubbex]

I tried searching for a quote but can't find it so to summarise I think what is happening is a person can seem a certain way or "OK" until you scratch them a little and then all kinds of things come to the surface.
It looks like Prometeo is angry at the forum and its methods and is lashing out by being offensive. Unless I am mistaken Prometeo even suggested that Laura was punished for offending him by the trees being torn down which I find ridiculous and self centred.

Jesus... like I said, some of you just repeat what you hear here. So, since when one can't make some questions? and I hope they are answered instead of just pointing fingers. These are not even scratches, I've been attacked my entire life, to the point of just resisting scratches. My father being a genius doctor did tried the best to wound me, he even got angry and said Laura was a manipulative cult dictator, and because I defended her I won his enemistry. I thought the storm was an interesting coincidence, and still, the storm for what I saw was already coming with or without what was going on in me.

 

[Alada]

When one presents themselves as a teacher , one carries the greater responsibility to be patient, courtliest and kind.
Especially if one considers oneself aware of "all is one" and "what I do to others I do to myself"
Phrases such as ,"get over yourself" "stop being narcissistic", Stop demanding" are more the comments of a simple and unlearned student than an Elder or teacher.
In this case it is quite reasonable that a person may think that the "teacher is attempting to come across as a "superior being.
A true teacher always uplifts the student and never "puts Down"

Self important nonsense.

Here's an uplifting thought for ya: If that's the way you've been taught, and what you believe, then one is probably in the wrong bar here. All is one. ;)

 

[casper]

In fear of receiving the or some banhammer, I want to make some last questionings and some statements. Better take the chance.

Do not be angry, but something is obviously going on with you, this is like as if not written by the same person

 

[wr4]

So, the first question should be what Lizzies, then if they understand it.

 

[Alada]

So, the first question should be what Lizzies, then if they understand it.

There's no context for the above. Its not really very helpful to post random one liners out of context here on the forum, as such they constitute 'noise'. Maybe you'd like to re-post it with a little more background, a little more thought for others reading the thread.