Session 11 June 2011
- Thread starter Laura
- Start date
Galaxia2002
Dagobah Resident
Ok, Thank you Laura. I don't know if it would be convenient to start reading the book and then the thread, or both at the same time? Should I copy what we write here in the oddyssey thread or leave it in stand-by?
Palinurus
The Living Force
If I may give a practical suggestion, it would be wisest (or so I think) to devise a posting in the Odyssey thread explaining this material as a background reference with direct links to the three relevant posts here (Replies 454, 463 and 464) in order to facilitate everyone who is so inclined to read them instantaneously from there - without disrupting the flow of the Odyssey thread, nor to be required to cut an paste only parts of what is here into the thread over there, all the while losing the context of the whole expose here which would be detrimental for coherence I presume.
Galaxia2002 said:
Perhaps another way of looking at it. Our reptilian brain (Medusa) in its normal state is beautiful, that is, harmonious, ordered, balanced, until it is raped by trauma (Poseidon). Porges points out that as mammals, the first circuit has adapted or been 'co-opted' so that it advances prosocial aims and behaviors. Immobilization without fear is an integral part of sex, birth, meditation. But when hijacked by trauma, our body (Perseus' mirror) reflects that trauma and turns us to stone (immobilization with fear).
Laura said:
Was thinking about that today after reading the polyvagel thread, and I'm now pretty sure that happens (both the internal/external predator) via the primary vagel nerve route
http://cassiopaea.org/forum/index.php/topic,23603.msg279687.html#msg279687
I wouldn't be at all supprised if negative dissociative states run via this route (and positive via the smart vagel/secondary/higher route). The world being full of things that induce (reinforce) this pathway....
One other thought about Medusa/turning to stone...if psychopaths can induce the 'freeze' responce, then maybe cutting off the head of Medusa is strengthening the higher route (through EE/knowledge) in order for that to not happen any more?
Psychopaths would be powerless (over you) and no longer 'turn you to stone'. fwiw (need to catch up on the Odyssey thread)
Laura said:
Good point. I'll change my last sentence, though, because as written it doesn't match with the myth: When hijacked by trauma, the trauma turns us to stone. But by *looking* to our body (Perseus' mirror, self-observation), we can avoid being turned to stone (having a PTSD reaction, a panic attack, etc.) and heal. (Lacking the mirror would be the state in which we ignore and are unaware of our bodies.)
We can insert a distance between our true selves (our will, attention, soul) and our trauma by observing our bodies and the visceral states that are a part of trauma and bringing them to completion and discharging the energy as Levine describes. And of course, if a person is turning us to stone, by default they CANNOT be functioning at the level of the 3rd circuit, because that circuit is one of social harmony and support. It's only the lower circuits, cut off from the highest, that operate in a "dog-eat-dog" world based purely on survival, competition, power struggles, etc. So when the natural order of our nervous system is hijacked by trauma, yes, we operate based on lower circuits. We "defend ourselves" by fleeing or attacking, and this will provoke a stress response in whoever we're interacting with...
reborn
The Force is Strong With This One
Aloha, All!
I'm trying to make some time to read through the Odyssey thread (and to actually read the book... ;)), meanwhile I'll throw some more ideas in here while I'm digesting some of the other responses.
I happened to be reading the Self Control and STS ? thread at http://cassiopaea.org/forum/index.php/topic,3816.0.html before I checked back in to read the new developments here, and these parts of that thread seem applicable:
...in reference to this:
...and:
...which is related to this:
...which lead me to think: Ah, isn't that what the lizzies want us to be experiencing...So they can control us while we are immobilized, and they can "eat" our fear...
fwiw :)
Renee
I'm trying to make some time to read through the Odyssey thread (and to actually read the book... ;)), meanwhile I'll throw some more ideas in here while I'm digesting some of the other responses.
I happened to be reading the Self Control and STS ? thread at http://cassiopaea.org/forum/index.php/topic,3816.0.html before I checked back in to read the new developments here, and these parts of that thread seem applicable:
Psyche said:
...in reference to this:
Galaxia2002 said:
...and:
Psyche said:
...which is related to this:
Approaching Infinity said:
...which lead me to think: Ah, isn't that what the lizzies want us to be experiencing...So they can control us while we are immobilized, and they can "eat" our fear...
fwiw :)
Renee
reborn
The Force is Strong With This One
Aloha, All!
I finally read through the Odyssey thread and made my initial post at http://cassiopaea.org/forum/index.php/topic,23803.360.html in response to this suggestion by Laura:
And now I want to go in a different direction in this thread.
To start:
I appreciate the encouragement, Laura :) I have heard good things about that book and was quite impressed with an excerpt I read. I have had a copy for some time now and must finally get to reading it.
And, regarding the subject of vegetarianism, I was a vegetarian for about 18 years, and would like to share some of my experience:
When I first became vegetarian about twenty years ago, I did not personally know anyone who was. Rather, I just felt drawn to it and, in the subsequent years of "spiritual practice", I assumed that meant that I was more advanced or enlightened. Reminds me of something I read here about how STS will play on one's need to feel special. With the knowledge I am acquiring here, I would say that it was some such influence that originally made me feel drawn to it. I do remember having empathy for meat-eaters, saying that I had eaten meat for twenty years prior to becoming vegetarian, so I wasn't in a position to judge; I trusted that they would change when they were ready. But I did promote vegetarianism, hoping that the people I was approaching were ready to change and that I would be the catalyst. I suspect that all these "spiritual" vegetarians who are trying to influence others are actually acting to serve 4D STS by endeavoring to "convert" the meat-eaters. In the meditation group to which I belonged for several years, there was an ongoing campaign to spread vegetarianism through advertising and videos and websites. And, since this was an international organization, this was a world-wide effort; in fact, some groups of "practitioners" actually went to other countries to distribute information and try to convert people to vegetarianism. And it was all done under the guise of helping the meat-eating humans, so that they could have the opportunity to "practice" for "liberation". It had the feel of imposing one's will on other people "for their own good". And, of course, you had to commit to being vegetarian for the rest of your life to be "initiated" into this meditation group and learn a form of meditation that purportedly would facilitate your liberation. So there was another angle they would use: if you wanted to learn this "secret" technique (which I later discovered was actually Sant Mat with a different name) and thereby acquire "eternal liberation", you had to adhere to vegetarianism. Very interesting...Also, I had been lead to join that group by an old boyfriend who was a staunch vegetarian and clearly had an "authoritarian follower type personality".
After several years of being at different stages of commitment or aversion to that group, I finally stopped my association with them altogether while living with my new boyfriend who happened to be an avid meat-eater and smoker. Incidentally, he was notably considerate of me in both regards, keeping both of these things away from me as much as possible so as not to offend or upset me. Ah, well, that was nice until I was compelled to leave him for my current husband, who was a devout raw-vegan due to the belief that it is the healthiest diet for humans. I met him as I was starting to explore the raw-vegan "lifestyle" and was believing (or hoping) that it was a "return to Eden". I was strongly drawn to be with him. I can see now how he had that "authoritarian follower type personality". But I was ignorant then, and moved with him to our raw-vegan "paradise" here in Hawai'i. We shared the dream of raising a raw-vegan family until last year, when I finally came to my senses a couple months before I gave birth to our third child. Around that time I became open to eating meat after having the sudden realization/intuition that animals are "meant" to be eaten. I finally opened my eyes to reality and delved into all the information out there about how harmful a raw-vegan diet can be, especially for pregnant women. I knew I had to start consuming meat in order to save my own health as well as that of my unborn baby, and I quickly transitioned to a diet mostly consisting of healthy grass-fed beef, liver and fat. Ironically, my husband opposed this in the name of "protecting the health of our unborn child". I felt bad for him when I put myself in his shoes, seeing that he was losing the dream of having a "perfect" raw-vegan wife and family, and tried to give him the benefit of the doubt. None-the-less, during the rest of my pregnancy, when I needed love and support, he regularly antagonized me because of what I was choosing to eat in order to be healthy. Sometimes I thought of leaving him. He continued this approach right up until the day our son was born. He was so cruel to me that day that I decided I did not want him there during the birthing process (as he had been during the births of our two daughters), and I had my homebirth without him. After the birth of our son, we somehow "worked things out" and have managed to stay together. To his credit, he has been open enough to buy meat for me and has ceased trying to control my diet and "allows" me to feed the baby what I see fit. He and the girls continue to reject any morsels of meat that I offer them, and instead have taken to eating cheese and eggs to try to ameliorate the deficient vegan diet. I suspect that they probably don't ever intend to transition to eating meat. He seems to be holding on to the identity of being a vegetarian, in spite of all the information I've shared with him. At any rate, I'm glad I finally came to see the truth in all this, and I am quite happy with my meat-based diet :D
Nourished ;)
Renee
I finally read through the Odyssey thread and made my initial post at http://cassiopaea.org/forum/index.php/topic,23803.360.html in response to this suggestion by Laura:
Laura said:
And now I want to go in a different direction in this thread.
To start:
Laura said:
I appreciate the encouragement, Laura :) I have heard good things about that book and was quite impressed with an excerpt I read. I have had a copy for some time now and must finally get to reading it.
And, regarding the subject of vegetarianism, I was a vegetarian for about 18 years, and would like to share some of my experience:
When I first became vegetarian about twenty years ago, I did not personally know anyone who was. Rather, I just felt drawn to it and, in the subsequent years of "spiritual practice", I assumed that meant that I was more advanced or enlightened. Reminds me of something I read here about how STS will play on one's need to feel special. With the knowledge I am acquiring here, I would say that it was some such influence that originally made me feel drawn to it. I do remember having empathy for meat-eaters, saying that I had eaten meat for twenty years prior to becoming vegetarian, so I wasn't in a position to judge; I trusted that they would change when they were ready. But I did promote vegetarianism, hoping that the people I was approaching were ready to change and that I would be the catalyst. I suspect that all these "spiritual" vegetarians who are trying to influence others are actually acting to serve 4D STS by endeavoring to "convert" the meat-eaters. In the meditation group to which I belonged for several years, there was an ongoing campaign to spread vegetarianism through advertising and videos and websites. And, since this was an international organization, this was a world-wide effort; in fact, some groups of "practitioners" actually went to other countries to distribute information and try to convert people to vegetarianism. And it was all done under the guise of helping the meat-eating humans, so that they could have the opportunity to "practice" for "liberation". It had the feel of imposing one's will on other people "for their own good". And, of course, you had to commit to being vegetarian for the rest of your life to be "initiated" into this meditation group and learn a form of meditation that purportedly would facilitate your liberation. So there was another angle they would use: if you wanted to learn this "secret" technique (which I later discovered was actually Sant Mat with a different name) and thereby acquire "eternal liberation", you had to adhere to vegetarianism. Very interesting...Also, I had been lead to join that group by an old boyfriend who was a staunch vegetarian and clearly had an "authoritarian follower type personality".
After several years of being at different stages of commitment or aversion to that group, I finally stopped my association with them altogether while living with my new boyfriend who happened to be an avid meat-eater and smoker. Incidentally, he was notably considerate of me in both regards, keeping both of these things away from me as much as possible so as not to offend or upset me. Ah, well, that was nice until I was compelled to leave him for my current husband, who was a devout raw-vegan due to the belief that it is the healthiest diet for humans. I met him as I was starting to explore the raw-vegan "lifestyle" and was believing (or hoping) that it was a "return to Eden". I was strongly drawn to be with him. I can see now how he had that "authoritarian follower type personality". But I was ignorant then, and moved with him to our raw-vegan "paradise" here in Hawai'i. We shared the dream of raising a raw-vegan family until last year, when I finally came to my senses a couple months before I gave birth to our third child. Around that time I became open to eating meat after having the sudden realization/intuition that animals are "meant" to be eaten. I finally opened my eyes to reality and delved into all the information out there about how harmful a raw-vegan diet can be, especially for pregnant women. I knew I had to start consuming meat in order to save my own health as well as that of my unborn baby, and I quickly transitioned to a diet mostly consisting of healthy grass-fed beef, liver and fat. Ironically, my husband opposed this in the name of "protecting the health of our unborn child". I felt bad for him when I put myself in his shoes, seeing that he was losing the dream of having a "perfect" raw-vegan wife and family, and tried to give him the benefit of the doubt. None-the-less, during the rest of my pregnancy, when I needed love and support, he regularly antagonized me because of what I was choosing to eat in order to be healthy. Sometimes I thought of leaving him. He continued this approach right up until the day our son was born. He was so cruel to me that day that I decided I did not want him there during the birthing process (as he had been during the births of our two daughters), and I had my homebirth without him. After the birth of our son, we somehow "worked things out" and have managed to stay together. To his credit, he has been open enough to buy meat for me and has ceased trying to control my diet and "allows" me to feed the baby what I see fit. He and the girls continue to reject any morsels of meat that I offer them, and instead have taken to eating cheese and eggs to try to ameliorate the deficient vegan diet. I suspect that they probably don't ever intend to transition to eating meat. He seems to be holding on to the identity of being a vegetarian, in spite of all the information I've shared with him. At any rate, I'm glad I finally came to see the truth in all this, and I am quite happy with my meat-based diet :D
Nourished ;)
Renee
vinny
The Living Force
reborn said:
It's amazing that so many have gone through a similar cycle of kinda self-indoctrination, followed by emergency breakthrough, and how vegetarianism somehow always becomes this heavily emotionally-laden, contentious subject. But then, that all starts to make sense when you put together connections between nutrition and brain chemistry.
quite a journey. congrats for navigating through it!
reborn
The Force is Strong With This One
Aloha, Nomad!
Thank you! And yes, it has been quite a journey :D
After considering Christianity and Judaism during that same pregnancy before starting to eat meat again, I came to see how vegetarianism is like a religion. I have just started reading *The Vegetarian Myth*, which I am already finding to be quite engaging, and I look forward to her exposition on this :)
With gratitude,
Renee
Nomad said:
Thank you! And yes, it has been quite a journey :D
After considering Christianity and Judaism during that same pregnancy before starting to eat meat again, I came to see how vegetarianism is like a religion. I have just started reading *The Vegetarian Myth*, which I am already finding to be quite engaging, and I look forward to her exposition on this :)
With gratitude,
Renee
weasel3d
Jedi
Have the Cs mentioned (haven't found it if they have), or better yet, have they been asked, that when taking the meat-eating approach, that there is a big difference between eating organically produced and organically fed animals and eating 'whatever' run of the mill animals. I question the 'leaning toward meat as essential to efficient energy' attitude, if it isn't taking into account the corporate agribusinesses saturating their animals with antibiotics, GM grains, hormones and such (don't have to say more; you're all aware). When I eat meats, I try to buy organic and grass-fed. But hell, I'm living in the States (belly of the beast) and not in the south of France, where better food quality is readily available---it isn't an easy task. If I go out and order chicken, or veal, it's a crap-shoot as to what it is I'm ingesting. Can the added values of all that toxic stuff detract from the 'efficiencies' of eating non-organic, naturally farmed animals? Simply, you might say that eating things that have been processed, are no longer those things. Do the Cs agree with this?
It's been on my mind for a long time and if I were ever given the opportunity to participate in a session, I think that I would ask a well structured question in that direction. It's right up there on my personal list of questions for the Cs.
It's been on my mind for a long time and if I were ever given the opportunity to participate in a session, I think that I would ask a well structured question in that direction. It's right up there on my personal list of questions for the Cs.
anart
A Disturbance in the Force
Hi weasel3d, I don't think there is any question at all that it's a priority to eat grass-fed meat if at all possible. This has been discussed at length in the various diet threads here on the forum. Factory farmed animals are not only riddled with diseases of different sorts, but eating that meat promotes the almost unimaginable suffering of those animals. Whenever possible eat organic, and grass fed meat. You can search the forum for 'grass fed meat' and see the data collected regarding the quality of fats available versus the lack of such in feed lot animals.