Session 12 July 2014

[Kosma]

Sure it can be very overwhelming at times and sometimes it feels like there just isn't enough "time" to fit in everything. When I feel that way I say to myself "Relax, take it one step at a time" like the Cs say, do what is effortless for you. I think one of the lessons we have to learn while here is to be able to create balance in our lives. Also it is important to learn when to let go of certain things, I feel very distant from some people who I used to feel so close to now that my perception has changed. A lot of the time I feel like I am going it alone here as I've never met anyone face to face who has similar views. This is why the forum is important for me. It gives me hope. I wish you luck.

This forum, sott portal and pracownia4 (polish blog translating some sott articles) are also my hope in life. But I feel this enormous pressure of time, in fact someday internet will be shut down and without some consious friends we will be left with knowledge gathered to that point and maybe some good books and even less time to act. Beside that I feel quite guilty of wasting much time in my life, which led me to this point. Anyway thanks for good word, I do wish you all the best too.

(...) meet someone personaly to talk about all this amazing stuff instead of hiding my own opinions when talking with relatives and friends beacuse of ignorace and rejection (...)

As for me the only man I can talk to personally (mainly in my mind) about the Truth is the bust of Julius Caesar placed among the other 7 busts of Roman emperors located next to the Old Orangery in the Łazienki Park in Warsawa, where I live

:) As you may guess from my avatar, I'm from Silesia region so it's a quite far distance for me to meet with this bust, but thanks for this contact ;)
I've also must ask somebody about "policy" of contacting members beyond forum, it was described somewhere and If I remeber correctly it was a bit dissuaded for some reasons ( maybe except busts? )

I'm sorry Kosma, it was a poor comparison with not enough thought given to it. Whatever about comparing 'good' and 'bad' guys in the 20th century world wars, we probably cannot compare Caesar's wars in that time period with modern wars.

OK. Indeed, incomparable eras in context of war engineering .

 

[Nević Nenad]

(...) meet someone personaly to talk about all this amazing stuff instead of hiding my own opinions when talking with relatives and friends beacuse of ignorace and rejection (...)

As for me the only man I can talk to personally (mainly in my mind) about the Truth is the bust of Julius Caesar placed among the other 7 busts of Roman emperors located next to the Old Orangery in the Łazienki Park in Warsawa, where I live

Regarding one other post:

In comparison, Russians defending their country against the Nazi onslaught in the Great Patriotic War (aka World War Two) killed righteously (in general).

It's always strikes me when I see such opinion about soviet army in the context how they were "liberating" countries when moving to Berlin - what I know these soldiers where mainly primitives who were raping and killing innocent people and those who refused to accept their thieviery and bestiality. So - ok, that was a force which liberated us from Nazis, but I'm far from using statement "killed righteously (in general)" about soviet army beacause in general they rather were same bastards as Nazis but with different goal and uniforms. I think this movie gives a good image about that: http://www.polishfilmfestival.net/Roza.htm

I agree, most of Russian soldiers during the World Word II were behaving like animals...

Sez who? Hollywood and people from Poland? And it is well known for both on their "objectivity" regarding Russians.


For example, I know an old man, he is Slovenian and lives in Belgrade, Serbia, now. He is 85/86 this year. He was forced to the Hitler-Jugend in 1944. Just as thousands of other young boys who were not Germans. And in 1944. fought in France before he surrendered to the allies. Later he was handed down to Yugoslav Partisans and became partisan and later in his life Yugoslav officer. Anyway, in his words, the worse people by far, he met in the war was Polish, on both sides (he always emphasize that: "on both sides"). When he surrendered he got to the provisional war prisoner camp guarded by Polish (working for the allies that time). He was immediately robbed off of his possession and they (the prisoners) got bitten every day by the Polish guards. It is good to say that prisoners had 16 years in average, and almost no Germans among them.

Russians, or more precise the Soviet Red Army, were liberators in Yugoslavia. There were some reports of raping and stealing when they arrived, but that was settled down with the help of the Partisans (that was possible because Partisans in Yugoslavia were the real fighting force with hundreds of thousands of people, not like in Poland or even worse France). There is a story from the village where my grandfather lived that two Russians came on their horses tried to rape one woman. Her father in law caught them and killed both with the fork hay. They got scared what would other Russians do if they found out, so they killed the horses too, and buried them together.

But there were isolated cases and there is no general Hollywood "bad Russians baaad" feeling among any of the Yugoslav nations towards Russians. They carried almost all of the fight against the Nazis in WW2 (twenty five million got killed) and they are responsible for defeating the Nazism.

I wrote the above as a illustration. It is not up to us, who live in modern times to say who was bad, who was good, who was animal, who was gentlemen in white gloves, because we don't know, we didn't saw it with our own eyes, we didn't participated. Putting people in general contexts basing that contexts on prejudices, social programing, "general feel" and "history" is not a sign of awaken awareness.

 

[PopHistorian]

A couple of thoughts. Wu Wei Wu wrote: << I was thinking about how to change humanity for the better, and I too thought that maybe, by acting as a beacon and example of virtue and selflessness in the world, one could attain positive effects throughout humanity. That's what worked for me. I was a little saddened, but not surprised, when Caesar said it wouldn't work. I know it too, but still, I want to try. >>

If being an example to masses doesn't work, then inspiring just one other or a few other persons, as an example, would seem to the best one can do to promote "progress." That's along the lines of the "one step at a time" idea. But, of course, I'm not sure it makes sense to try to be inspiring, but rather, just be that way by being true to your own nature, as Caesar suggested, and let others pick up on it if they can and choose. Leave it to the Butterfly Effect (hopefully energized by The Wave) to achieve the "positive effects throughout humanity" that Wu Wei Wu mentioned. There is, however, a lot of competition out there because there is plenty of STS nature "inspiring" people in a negative way, as we know from looking at psychopaths and their influence.

luc wrote: << This probably means, again, that all universal ethical rules like "though shalt not kill" or utilitarian approaches are misleading and doomed to fail. They can always be twisted and used for paramoralisms. What counts is the best possible alignment with objective reality based on empathy, given a specific situation... Fwiw. >>

This prompted a memory from The Ra Material, in which Ra described General Dwight D. Eisenhower as an "extremely positively oriented and simple congenial person with no significant distortion towards power." I always wondered how a military man of such high rank could be oriented in the direction of STO. I haven't studied Eisenhower's deeds in any great detail (he is the guy that warned the US population about the military-industrial-congressional complex, that wars were fomented for profit, and that the US empire wouldn't last forever), but I have a clearer general understanding now, in light of Caesar, how this can be - by focusing on empathy and having the wisdom to grok the specific situation.

 

[Dragonsister]

Ave indeed!

Thanks to the team, the C's and Caesar <3 This ties together a few things that haven't made sense for me before... wonderful :D

 

[Aiming]

I've also must ask somebody about "policy" of contacting members beyond forum, it was described somewhere and If I remeber correctly it was a bit dissuaded for some reasons ( maybe except busts? )

Hi Kosma, yes, private email conversations and meet-ups with other members are discouraged because of e.g. negative feedback loops. Here's a thread that will clarify: Forum Personal Messages and Predators

 

[Laura]

I've also must ask somebody about "policy" of contacting members beyond forum, it was described somewhere and If I remeber correctly it was a bit dissuaded for some reasons ( maybe except busts? )

Hi Kosma, yes, private email conversations and meet-ups with other members are discouraged because of e.g. negative feedback loops. Here's a thread that will clarify: Forum Personal Messages and Predators

We just don't want our forum to function as a feeding ground for cranks, whackos and predators.

The situation is different for FOTCM members who have interacted on the forum sufficiently so that we can get a good feel for them. We organize meetings that are in groups so that if there are any pathological types, they can be weeded out.

 

[Alvalsen]

I do not know who the author of this sculpture, but it can be fairly accurate picture of Caesar in his youth

chin, cheeks, mouth, nose,browridges very similar...

 

[Kosma]

Regarding one other post:

In comparison, Russians defending their country against the Nazi onslaught in the Great Patriotic War (aka World War Two) killed righteously (in general).

It's always strikes me when I see such opinion about soviet army in the context how they were "liberating" countries when moving to Berlin - what I know these soldiers where mainly primitives who were raping and killing innocent people and those who refused to accept their thieviery and bestiality. So - ok, that was a force which liberated us from Nazis, but I'm far from using statement "killed righteously (in general)" about soviet army beacause in general they rather were same bastards as Nazis but with different goal and uniforms. I think this movie gives a good image about that: http://www.polishfilmfestival.net/Roza.htm

I agree, most of Russian soldiers during the World Word II were behaving like animals...

Sez who? Hollywood and people from Poland? And it is well known for both on their "objectivity" regarding Russians.

So it looks for me like you are falling into opposite exaggeration by denying all polish history reports just beacuse of current political situation?. And BTW this movie is a polish production, not Hollywood's. And sorry but I will repeat - Russians soldiers were like animals that time in many cases, there are lots of real stories about that, i.e. my father told me about some things that my grandmother had to deal with to survive; terrible. So I wont change my opinion about that even though today's Poland is not what I'm proud of.

@Aiming, Laura, - thanks

 

[Alvalsen]

So it looks for me like you are falling into opposite exaggeration by denying all polish history reports just beacuse of current political situation?. And BTW this movie is a polish production, not Hollywood's. And sorry but I will repeat - Russians soldiers were like animals that time in many cases, there are lots of real stories about that, i.e. my father told me about some things that my grandmother had to deal with to survive; terrible. So I wont change my opinion about that even though today's Poland is not what I'm proud of.

I think it is not necessary to generalize
it is a mistake
in each army fully scum and there is no war without horror

 

[Alvalsen]

I do not know who the author of this sculpture, but it can be fairly accurate picture of Caesar in his youth

chin, cheeks, mouth, nose,browridges very similar...

Sorry, that Octavian, Caesar's nephew accounted for...

 

[ROEL]

Wow! Blown away by the interaction with Caesar/Jesus. And the clarifications about the distortion of the timeline too. Thanks to the Cs and Laura and team. All this deep digging bears fruit.

 

[lainey]

Sure it can be very overwhelming at times and sometimes it feels like there just isn't enough "time" to fit in everything. When I feel that way I say to myself "Relax, take it one step at a time" like the Cs say, do what is effortless for you. I think one of the lessons we have to learn while here is to be able to create balance in our lives. Also it is important to learn when to let go of certain things, I feel very distant from some people who I used to feel so close to now that my perception has changed. A lot of the time I feel like I am going it alone here as I've never met anyone face to face who has similar views. This is why the forum is important for me. It gives me hope. I wish you luck.

This forum, sott portal and pracownia4 (polish blog translating some sott articles) are also my hope in life. But I feel this enormous pressure of time, in fact someday internet will be shut down and without some consious friends we will be left with knowledge gathered to that point and maybe some good books and even less time to act. Beside that I feel quite guilty of wasting much time in my life, which led me to this point. Anyway thanks for good word, I do wish you all the best too.

I guess we just have to do the best we can with the time we do have and deal with the rest as it comes. try not to worry too much and have faith that you are on the right path

 

[gdpetti]

This prompted a memory from The Ra Material, in which Ra described General Dwight D. Eisenhower as an "extremely positively oriented and simple congenial person with no significant distortion towards power." I always wondered how a military man of such high rank could be oriented in the direction of STO. I haven't studied Eisenhower's deeds in any great detail (he is the guy that warned the US population about the military-industrial-congressional complex, that wars were fomented for profit, and that the US empire wouldn't last forever), but I have a clearer general understanding now, in light of Caesar, how this can be - by focusing on empathy and having the wisdom to grok the specifics situation.

It also illustrates how such a man "with no significant distortion towards power" can be used by those that do, ie STS types... for if you remember it was the infamous Prescott Bush and friends that put him in power.... same way they did Reagan et al to this day. A lack of 'distortion' seems to imply a lack of energy being directed in that direction, and though the person's 'heart' might be in the 'right' place, like Carter's, his mind and body will be directed by others that don't... ie, the usual support team/staff of advisors... in which case the 'wrong' thing is suggested in the name of doing the 'right' thing. Of course, others know better but keep their mouths shut such as Bush Sr. or Obama etc. Seems the stress showing up on Obama's face this morning as he was sent out to lie for his oligarchy is rather taking its affect... but then, he should have known he couldn't escape it for long.
Ike relied on his staff, such as the Dulles brothers, for most of this intel. He knew the military issues that he had personal experience with, but everything else was out of his area of interest, thus the ease in which others could exploit his position for their master oligarchs preferred policy designs. Those that chose to intrude in this policy get redirected or 'made an offer they can't refuse'... or shouldn't refuse without knowledge of the consequences anyway.
The ability of these guys looking the part of a 'good man' is key for their role as president... same as psychopathic killers who always seem like 'nice guys'. It is a magic show after all, and what good is any illusion if it doesn't fool most of the people, most of the time?
It isn't too shocking for Caesar to find none of his friends wanting to follow his path of change. Such paths are long and hard and fraught with dangers of nearly every kind... or should that be 'challenges'? Tests and the like? Such as manipulation of the Crowd. Seems a simple doorman to the Capital club and a weapons check at that door would have served some use, but if he was in a state of decline, health wise, time might not have been on his side... thus the Octavian adoption? Given their religion, and the need to utilize the tools or people around him even as he kept watch for better.... the pool had to remain local to Rome until necessary changes where made... all of which takes time... something he didn't seem to have. A question or two regarding his knowledge of that disease would have been interesting.

 

[Dirgni]

Regarding one other post:

In comparison, Russians defending their country against the Nazi onslaught in the Great Patriotic War (aka World War Two) killed righteously (in general).

It's always strikes me when I see such opinion about soviet army in the context how they were "liberating" countries when moving to Berlin - what I know these soldiers where mainly primitives who were raping and killing innocent people and those who refused to accept their thieviery and bestiality. So - ok, that was a force which liberated us from Nazis, but I'm far from using statement "killed righteously (in general)" about soviet army beacause in general they rather were same bastards as Nazis but with different goal and uniforms. I think this movie gives a good image about that: http://www.polishfilmfestival.net/Roza.htm

I agree, most of Russian soldiers during the World Word II were behaving like animals...

Sez who? Hollywood and people from Poland? And it is well known for both on their "objectivity" regarding Russians.

Here in Germany it is still said that those regions occupied by Americans (French or British) at the end of WW2 were comparatively "lucky". It seems that the first Soviets, who occupied eastern parts were a really bad batch (most probably psychopaths et al). There are still stories around that there were a lot of rapings of women by those Soviet soldiers and others hided to avoid rapings. I also heard that male nurses in nursing homes for the elderly now have issues with some old women. These women repressed their feelings about their rape and never told anyone because decorous women get not raped... Now these women loose control over this and feelings resurface when 'unfamiliar men' come near them... They feel thrown back to the traumatic situation and get really scared. We were not liberated but conquered and occupied at WW2. There was a lot of revenge from Soviets, Poles and Czech to Eastern Germans after official end of WW2.

A lot of evil things happened back then and normal people of all countries were mostly on the receiving side.
And a lot of psychopaths were on the lose back then doing what they wished IMO.

As far as I know the help of the Soviets was paid with the joining of different people and foundation of Yugoslavia. And Yugoslavia broke apart with a horrible war in the nineties....

Disputing helps the PTB, only. Now normal people should stick together and help each other. Better for us all in the long run.

 

[gdpetti]

I don't think that wanting power is what would enable a person to be put on the step behind you, nor that they have to be generals. That's not what one needs to become of aware of our programs, seeing things as they are, gaining knowledge and using it. It's who you are and what you see. The fact that his friends were not interested in power was probably a plus for them. Caesar didn't want power, either, Nor, did he want to be the leader of an army, but it ended up that because of where he was, there was no other way to do what he was trying to do.

The only reason that there was no one to fill his shoes, if that's even relevant, is most likely because there was no one who was at a level of awareness close to where Caesar was at that time, just like Gurdjieff.

At least, that's the way it seems to me.

Those that have no interest aren't invited to the club to begin with. Change isn't effected from without, but from within. Someone has to carry the torch or the stadium remains unlit and in darkness. It's just the way it is. Those without such interest might attempt to affect those that do... Caesar in this case.. Alexander before him et al... sometimes, if not most, due to their birth status within the culture of their times... many of Caesar's "friends" might not have been in a position to join this game in the classic way, and among those that were, many might not have survived to continue the quest. IMO, Caesar wanted power, if not for the simple reason that without it, you cannot affect change and are left on the sidelines as spectators.